Old school players competing in 2013.

[PaperstSoapCo]

I started competing in melee while it was still fresh. To the point, ive seen different stages dropped and used at various tournaments. Now it seems that only 6 stages are ever being played. So much variety is taken out of the game. TO's should strive to make their tournament different and exciting. The lack of stages is a visual eyesore when every tournament match has spacies fighting on said 6 stages. Am I the only one who feels lack of stages are doing an injustice to this game?

 

[JKJ]

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/i-have-a-huge-problem-with-the-current-stage-ruleset.333814/
http://smashboards.com/threads/chal...hinking-about-the-stage-ruleset-ver-2.333947/

In short:
No, you are not the only one.

Though there are some that would advocate Battlefield only
*shudders*

 

[bearsfan092]

The thing about the ruleset is that it's supposed to promote competition. If you want to make an argument for more stages, you'll need to make a better argument than "because it's fun!" and talk about how it positively impacts the metagame or enhances competition.

 

[DoH]

Or you could host a tournament with an alternate ruleset

 

[Bones0]

I started competing in melee while it was still fresh. To the point, ive seen different stages dropped and used at various tournaments. Now it seems that only 6 stages are ever being played. So much variety is taken out of the game. TO's should strive to make their tournament different and exciting. The lack of stages is a visual eyesore when every tournament match has spacies fighting on said 6 stages. Am I the only one who feels lack of stages are doing an injustice to this game?

What stages are on your Cube's random rotation?

That's what I thought.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Lol I have basic rule stages to get used to the stages at noob4 but peach's castle and corneria get turned on occasionally. Brinstar is a cool stage but that lava hazard is understandably a pain enough that I wouldnt wanna lose a tournament match where I feel its skill vs skill cause of lava. But some hazard like at peach's castle change the match to additional platforms and fighting away from the bomb or near it for risky gimps that can be tech'd. IMO Peach's castle is something that should be looked over again. It promotes aggressive matches with a wall to tech for increased survivability on a relatively small stage.

Stages that encourage camping I understand people not using them. Stages with random hazards I can understand to an extant. I know this post wont change tournaments but in friendlies I still see tournament only levels.

 

[Divinokage]

Well that's because you would want to train in the tournament standard ruleset in order to be good at it? If your goal is to become a great smasher then you kinda have to do it, there's really no other way. But if you just want to **** around then doesn't really matter, play how you want?

 

[ycz12]

Man, from the thread title I thought we were going to get a discussion about the viability of old-school low-tech skill playstyles in today's metagame. Not this again.

 

[Divinokage]

Well I could elaborate on that if you want, i have a fairly old school playstyle.

 

[pokemongeof]

Wow. I never noticed it, Kage.

Personally, I play new-school Luigi, but I think my falcon is luigi style/old school, while falco is a cross of new and old. ( i think)

 

[MasterShake]

Much more interested in the vs aspect of players pitting their tech skill/knowledge against each other than what they can do with stage hazards. I prefer to think that with the current stagelist players are much much more likely to utlilize the stage rather than fight against it.

 

[DoH]

Isn't knowledge of the stage game knowledge?

 

[MasterShake]

Yes.

wowtheresstill10charlimitwtf

 

[TL?]

My Marth is so oldschool that I still play like it's day 1.

 

[Teczer0]

Well, there isn't much of a reason to change the stages you play on if its not on the ruleset unless you want to mess around.

I personally have a strong dislike for the current stagelist but I've sorta just accepted it won't change.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

biggest problem with many of the stages is that slow characters can be timed out

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Man, from the thread title I thought we were going to get a discussion about the viability of old-school low-tech skill playstyles in today's metagame. Not this again.

I did get to play a lot of old school players way back when and I did pick up a few things from them. They all had different play styles but what I notice is different from now and then is players then would **** you with the same move, same set up, 4 stocks straight if they could gt away with it. Now it feels like players are constantly trying to switch it up to overwhelm opponents.

You cant really compare old school melee to now because melee is still evolving. Its why its been alive for so many years.

 

[rjgbadger]

biggest issue with peach's is that fox can infinite shine against any of the walls

never gonna see that be a real stage lmao

I personallly like kongo64, mute city, Corneria, and rainbow cruise as CPs. we need more counterpicks

 

[BTmoney]

Or no counter picks

 

[Massive]

Man, from the thread title I thought we were going to get a discussion about the viability of old-school low-tech skill playstyles in today's metagame. Not this again.

This thread is boring, so lets do that.

Youtube and the subsequent proliferation of combo/match videos has greatly decreased the variance the community had from regional playstyles. Instead of mostly developing their own way of playing with minimal input, new players were able to emulate other styles and tactics they saw online. It has killed whatever creative ways of playing they may have developed, replacing them with repeated, almost-scripted playstyles. This largely homogenizing effect on the community can still be felt, as flashier, easier to master tech-skill became the focus of many players (tech skill inadvertently becoming synonymous with ability for many people), leaving emphasis on smarter playstyles by the wayside for newer players.

Low tech skill almost doesn't exist anymore, simply because it is so very easy to do most of the tech skill related stuff in the game and it opens up a lot of possibilities. Some characters like jigglypuff and falcon don't necessarily need a lot of tech skill to be effective, yet those players are all still very competent at technical things.

Any player with a propensity towards a smart, non-technical playstyle that may not require a large amount of tech skill has still obtained that tech skill anyway. This is because there's no reason not to be technically proficient in addition to playing intelligently, especially since tech skill is obtained through rote practice.

 

[Jabejazz]

Low tech skill almost doesn't exist anymore, simply because it is so very easy to do most of the tech skill related stuff in the game and it opens up a lot of possibilities. Some characters like jigglypuff and falcon don't necessarily need a lot of tech skill to be effective, yet those players are all still very competent at technical things.

Wholeheartedly agree with all of your post.
But the only reason I sometimes play Falcon is because I can style all over my opponent. But yes, even there, it started with the Sacred Combo, and "evolved" into swag UAir juggling to Knee.

Thing is, tech-skill is also the easiest thing to practice by yourself, which is why so many players are good at it. Being alone at home, tech-skill is pretty much one of the only things I can practice. I can play smart all you want against 3 lvl 9s, it just doesn't cut it when you're facing someone who might be smarter than you are.

 

[Ramo]

I think most people believe it would be a tradeoff, where more "non neutral" stages would mean less variety of characters being mained (nobody wants to be a slow/heavy character on Brinstar).
But I think it would be a good thing encouraging people to learn more than one character to compensate for certain stages

 

[Divinokage]

I think most people believe it would be a tradeoff, where more "non neutral" stages would mean less variety of characters being mained (nobody wants to be a slow/heavy character on Brinstar).
But I think it would be a good thing encouraging people to learn more than one character to compensate for certain stages

Ganon destroys almost everybody on Brinstar except Peach/Jiggs. I'd say you would want to be a heavy character because even if you get hit by the lava that's simply another chance for you to recover where their recoveries are already very crappy. As for learning many characters because you have more stages.. well that seems kinda unrealistic considering the depth you need to understand one character. It took me years to master Ganon (I still have stuff to learn too) and it will probably take more years in order to master another.. and on top of that you need to master stage control since this is a skill required for smash games.. so ya.. theres too many things to learn and even with the simplified competitive ruleset.. it's still very hard to be good at it.

 

[Battlecow]

This thread is boring, so lets do that.

Youtube and the subsequent proliferation of combo/match videos has greatly decreased the variance the community had from regional playstyles. Instead of mostly developing their own way of playing with minimal input, new players were able to emulate other styles and tactics they saw online. It has killed whatever creative ways of playing they may have developed, replacing them with repeated, almost-scripted playstyles. This largely homogenizing effect on the community can still be felt, as flashier, easier to master tech-skill became the focus of many players (tech skill inadvertently becoming synonymous with ability for many people), leaving emphasis on smarter playstyles by the wayside for newer players.

Low tech skill almost doesn't exist anymore, simply because it is so very easy to do most of the tech skill related stuff in the game and it opens up a lot of possibilities. Some characters like jigglypuff and falcon don't necessarily need a lot of tech skill to be effective, yet those players are all still very competent at technical things.

Any player with a propensity towards a smart, non-technical playstyle that may not require a large amount of tech skill has still obtained that tech skill anyway. This is because there's no reason not to be technically proficient in addition to playing intelligently, especially since tech skill is obtained through rote practice.

You're conflating the ideas "everyone has techskill" and "no one is innovative anymore"

Isn't it possible that the lack of "innovation" is just the adoption of better stuff? Maybe everyone playing cookie-cutter is really no one playing stupid, because they see better options to their nooby **** every time they look on YT.

 

[phish-it]

I used to think certain counterpick stages could be resurrected if you couldn't use certain characters on them.

Ie, Corneria could be a legal counterpick but Fox/Falco would be banned on it.
Mute City could be legal but Peach/Jigglypuff would be banned on it.

Loser counterpicks stage the same way here but with a couple changes.

Say I'm using Peach and I lost to a Falco on a neutral. I could then counterpick Mute City, but in doing so I can't pick Peach or Jiggs (neither can the opponent).

Now same scenario, (Peach/Falco) except this time I decide to counterpick Corneria. If the opponent was already Falco he's allowed to stay the same character. Basically so you can't directly force the opponent off of their main. You just couldn't switch the 'banned' characters on the stage if you weren't using them to begin with.


This stipulation would probably over complicate things and some stages that were once viable counterpicks weren't banned because a single character dominated on them either, but because they have features that can skew the outcome of the match easily (Brinstar). Corneria and Mute City do too but whatever, would be interesting to see how it plays out.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

The best stage counter picking for any tournament that wouldn't ruin the events integrity is "If both players agree on a stage they can play on it". Hands down this would make melee a bit more entertaining. Sure no one might ever agree to temple or ice mountain but I do see corneria being one of those stages people don't mind switching it up with.

 

[standardtoaster]

pretty sure that falls under the gentleman's rule

 

[BTmoney]

Who's going to let fox go to corneria?

Maybe everyone playing cookie-cutter is really no one playing stupid,.

well said (seriously)

 

[CanISmash]

#bring back stage variety.

everyone keeps saying just make your own tournament like it's that easy. I think TO's should have a vote. they've already established their entrants. not to mention smash has literally never worked that way. 99% of melee tournaments simply copied major results from nationals. before pound v there was freedom. then pound v was the ruleset until the melee back room was used at apex then everyone copied that.

 

[MasterShake]

There's always the gentlemen's rule. With that, freedom has been there. Players have just chosen not to use it.

 

[pokemongeof]

rainbow Cruise shouldn't be a counterpick. The stage moves, and is really unfair for someone like ness.

 

[KrazyKnux]

Man I definitely got bamboozled into clicking this thread. Def false advertising.

No one wants more stages; let's just leave it how it is.

 

[choknater]

the changes in the metagame have benefitted me over the years

bc ic's are bad on moving stages or stages with weird slopes

 

[Smasher89]

I totally disagree with choc, moving stages even though Nana can be stupid on them, you can get very fast kills which makes it a very cool dynamic in some matchups. The non as much moving stages like Onett, Corneria, PPC benefitted them soooooo much not only because Nana is harder to kill but just because you can put your opponent in situations they have to adapt on another level to not fail in their pressure and get grabbed. But i think that might just depend on how the player used them.

ALthough i quit playing for alot of reasons, one were the boring stagelist that takes no skill to use more then watch players counterpick and win once.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I totally disagree with choc, moving stages even though Nana can be stupid on them, you can get very fast kills which makes it a very cool dynamic in some matchups. The non as much moving stages like Onett, Corneria, PPC benefitted them soooooo much not only because Nana is harder to kill but just because you can put your opponent in situations they have to adapt on another level to not fail in their pressure and get grabbed. But i think that might just depend on how the player used them.

ALthough i quit playing for alot of reasons, one were the boring stagelist that takes no skill to use more then watch players counterpick and win once.

shut up ****** i wont let you quit <3

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ITT everyone's avatars are f'ed

 

[pokemongeof]

If it wasn't for the wavedash, luigi wouldn't be able to compete!

 

[Tylerflipz]

I think all items, stages, characters, etc should be aloud. The best of the best should be able to win in any situation.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Of course. I play fox therefore i am the best player whenever you pick hyrule

 

[Ziodyne]

You are definitely the better player if you pick fox and i pick hyrule as a counter pick lol