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Legend of Zelda "Oh... So the evil has left the mask after all..."

ZERO...

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Ehh... I don't know how active this place is, but I thought that I'd try to make a theory.

I'm sorry if it doesn't turn out too well... Well, here it goes:

The quote I used as the title is muttered by the Happy Mask Salesman after Majora is defeated and Termina is "saved" (we'll get to why I put quotations marks around saved later). My first time reading those words was when I was eight and had just barely managed to defeat Majora after a three year endeavor with a game that frightened my young self at every chance that it got. I felt triumphant. I had finally killed the one who was causing so much pain for Termina and me. Link must have felt similarly as he proceeded to leave Termina, possibly forever. However, was it a true triumph? As I grew older those words "The evil has left the mask after all..." would occasionally appear in my mind when I thought about the game. I became increasingly suspicious of the true meaning of those words. Then, one day, I realized that maybe the evil simply did leave the mask and that Majora was not actually dead. I had a bit of evidence, but not too much to support it. Now, I believe that I have plenty of sufficient evidence to support this hypothesis.

Firstly, let's examine the mask. Of course, as the game shows, Majora's Mask has incredible powers. These incredible powers allow it to bring never-ending blizzards, poison swamps, and ruin entire ecosystems. However, it is somewhat limited by what its wearer wishes. This limitation could perhaps even prevent it from being able to use all of its power. At the end of the game, we see Majora's Mask move by itself, meaning that the mask itself may possibly be sentient. However, as shown in the final battle against it, it is not the mask that is sentient, but rather, there is something sealed in the mask that is sentient. Now, logically, something sealed in something would obviously want to escape. Majora wanted to do just that.

However, who would let some kind of ungodly evil out willingly? Until one with a dark past such as the Skull Kid decided to wear the mask, it was effectively harmless. However, fortune smiled upon Majora, and the Skull Kid decided to wear it. The Skull Kid, with his newfound power, tortured the people of Termina and sealed the guardian giants with this power. This took place at least a month before Link arrived in Termina (Anju says that Kafei disappeared one month ago if you talk to her on the second day at Laundry Pool). When Link is travelling in the Lost Woods, oddly enough, the Skull Kid is there, too, outside of Termina. Why was he here? Well, to put it simply, he was looking to mess up Hyrule as well. Why would that be? It was the people of Termina who betrayed him? I believe that the mask influenced him to do it to be honest. Majora, unable to find anyone in Termina to challenge him, wanted to go to Hyrule (a place held in high regard if Anju's grandmother's stories hold true) to find a warrior that he would eventually trick into battling him and breaking the seal. However, more on that later.

The Skull Kid knocks Link unconscious and says the following upon further observation, "Huh? This guy... Well, that shouldn't be a problem." Of course, Majora had to have observed this and may have very well concluded that the person that the Skull Kid just pulled a prank on may be more powerful than he seems. However, the Skull Kid, still not completely under Majora's influence, steals Link's ocarina, cripples him, and heads back to Termina. For one reason or another, the Skull Kid (who I imagine is still not completely under Majora's control) uses the power of the mask to pull the moon out of the sky to crush Termina (remember, the Skull Kid is not as cruel as Majora. This would probably be a much less painful experience than what Majora would give Termina provided that he was not sealed). When Majora did overcome the Skull Kid's will, he might have been fine with the moon because although he knew that Link would be able to disrupt his apparent plans eventually, he might as well torture the kid. More importantly, however, if the moon did fall, it would likely destroy the mask, breaking the seal.

Right now, I just want to make a note about how Majora influences the Skull Kid. His influence on him grows incredibly slowly, but for a good reason. The Skull Kid doesn't seem to notice. If he did, he would likely try to get rid of the mask, as he does when he realizes that the mask is making him do such evil things at the end of the game on the Clock Tower after Link plays the Oath to Order. There's a saying about how putting a frog in hot water will make it jump out immediately, but putting a frog in lukewarm water and slowly turning up the heat will trick the frog into staying in the water as it doesn't notice the change until it's too late (This is actually untrue in real life. In fact, I believe that the opposite is true). This saying seems to hold true for Majora's slowly growing influence over the Skull Kid as the Skull Kid doesn't notice the influence until it's too late. Remember, most of what I have said so far is speculation. Now, we get more into the facts.

As you know, Link does free the four giants and stops the moon from falling. Majora's Mask frees himself from the Skull Kid, and proceeds to give two, rather chillingly serious lines of dialogue before disappearing into the moon, increasing its power. Of course, this incites Link to follow the mask to stop it once and for all. At this point, Majora adopts a completely new personality (not unlike Zant). This childlike personality is a bit unnerving, but Majora may intend it to do just that. By calling something a game, it makes itself appear more innocent than it really is. It wants to let Link win, but it doesn't want Link to become too suspicious if he finds the fight too easy. Why does he was Link to win? To break the seal on the mask. This may even be why Majora gives Link the Fierce Deity Mask if he has no masks (Honestly, I think the Fierce Deity Mask is something that Majora simply conjured up. I don't think there ever was a true Fierce Deity, but that's another theory of mine). So, Link fights Majora. Something has always seemed off about this fight, though. Majora, the same being whose power created endless blizzards, completely a poisoned swamp, destroyed an ecosystem, reversed aging, stole the bodies of species and transformed others into those bodies, and pulled a moon out of orbit, is... spinning into me while making odd sounds? While the beam it uses may be impressive, there isn't really anything else that would set it aside from a normal boss. Well, once Link damages it enough, it becomes Majora's Incarnation. I believe that this means that Link is breaking the seal, and when it transforms once again, the seal is completely broken. Yet, it's still using whips when it could easily simply take away Link's body. Why? Well, again, to keep Link from getting suspicious if something went wrong and Link still won. If that happened, Link may have realized that Majora was planning more than what was apparent. Clearing Link of any suspicion would allow Majora to torture and painfully destroy Termina much more easily as Link would think that he is gone. That light show and apparent disintegration it made when you defeated it? All to appear to be defeated. The moon going away? To appear to be defeated.

So at the end of the game, everything appears alright and whatnot. Then the Happy Mask Salesman appears out of nowhere, saying those chilling lines ever so solemnly, "Oh... So the evil has left the mask after all..." As anyone who has played Majora's Mask knows, the Happy Mask Salesman is always eccentric with his emotions. The only time he seems to be solemn is when he talks about the dangers of Majora's Mask, as if in fear. One would expect him to be extraordinarily happy when he gets the mask back, but he isn't. He may know that Majora isn't defeated, and instead, it has tricked everyone into unsealing its terrible evil. Why doesn't the Happy Mask Salesman tell Link this? Well, remember what Kaepora Gaebora said in Woodfall? "This swamp you are in has lost its guardian deity. But it was destined to fade anyway. Hoo-hoot... And that destiny is not limited solely limited to this swamp..." This implies that since its creation, Termina has always been doomed to fade. After seeing that Majora had not truly been defeated but instead had grown stronger, the Happy Mask Salesman realized this. However, he may have thought of another plan (warning the following is complete speculation). Majora now most likely knows how to travel to Hyrule by learning from the Skull Kid. After he is done completely torturing Termina, he is likely to go to Hyrule. The Happy Mask Salesman has been in Hyrule and undoubtedly
knows about the Triforce as well as the Master Sword, two things that would greatly assist in beating Majora. By tricking Majora into confronting Link and other Hyrulians in their native realm, the heroes would have a much greater chance of defeating Majora. Not to mention that it is likely that Majora thought he could pull a surprise attack on Hyrule without anyone else knowing. However, the Happy Mask Salesman could inform the people of Hyrule about this terror so that they would be more prepared, including Link who probably thought Majora was dead and no longer a problem. Unfortunately, this means that Termina could not be saved. However, it probably could not be saved anyway. Without any weapon that is truly the bane of evil in Termina, Majora could never be defeated.

This brings me to my next point. As soon as the Skull Kid put on Majora's Mask, Majora had already won. No matter what happened after that, Majora would win. Had the moon crashed, Termina would be destroyed, the mask (and the seal) would be destroyed, allowing Majora to be free. Had there been no Link to stop Majora, the Skull Kid would have gone to Hyrule, tortured Hyrule quite a bit, and eventually encounter Ganondorf or a powerful warrior like Darunia who would break the seal (I honestly think that Majora is more powerful than Ganondorf even if he has the Triforce of Power, so Majora would likely still get away). Regardless of the situation, Termina was never saved, and Majora wins.

Well, that was my first theory. I had a couple of better points that I thought up earlier, but I may have forgotten them. I also rambled a bit, unfortunately. If I clean this up a bit it probably would be better... Though, I feel as if the information, for the most part, is necessary in order to understand what I am trying to convey. Also, as a small note, I looked up what the Happy Mask Salesman said in the Japanese version to confirm that Majora was never pronounced dead. The text is as follows: おお、やはり 仮面から 邪気が 無くなっている... This roughly translates to, "Oh, so the mask's evil spirit is missing." Of course, this is essentially the same thing as what he says in the American/European versions. Anyway, I hope I didn't bore you with this long theory. It's just that I've always loved Majora's Mask, and I have always wanted for Majora to be the main villain in another Zelda game.

I apologize for inconsistencies or fallacies in my theory. If you find any, please correct me. If you find something that completely renders this theory untrue, please tell me.
So umm... thank you for taking the time to read this!
 

Life

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Two words: sequel hook? ;)

tl;dr warning

There's something else you don't go far into, however, and that is Kaepora Gaebora. My memory is foggy, do we find out in either game what he's really up to? Is it the same one in both realms, or are they mirror images (like the other characters)? If the former, does he have a Termina counterpart? And same for HMS.

I ask because in both games, he has a vested interest in helping Link defeat the villains, perhaps more than the other people (think of the old "why do the shopkeepers charge the heroes?" question, in reverse). Obviously, Kaepora doesn't want to let the worlds end, but it seems like he knows more than he should. "The swamp was destined to fade anyway"--operative word is "fade". Kaepora is merely an owl, and yet in OOT is more helpful to Link than anyone else bar the Sages, Navi, Deku Tree, etc. He clearly knows more than he should.

Spontaneous theory time!

Termina is a mirror world to Hyrule, linked through the Lost Woods, as we know. Termina is rotting, cursed if you will, and that means that whatever force is decaying it might escape to Hyrule. Kaepora is the only one who notices (besides us players, HMS and assumedly Link). He's a dimension hopper, much like HMS. Evil is growing too powerful--first Dorf ends up in the sacred realm, then Majora gets busy pulling his best Xanatos impression (yeah, I'm a troper). Kaepora originally intended to get the two to fight, that whichever wins might be weakened and thus easier for the hero to deal with. But then Link gets sealed away in the sacred realm. The hero isn't there to confront Majora. Would it take Majora seven years to break into Hyrule? (Tangent: WHOA WHOA WHOA. Yeah it did. A lot longer, actually. Remember the intro to WW? The great evil returned again... but the hero did not appear. The great evil was not Ganondorf redux. It was Majora. Legends have been confused since the flood. Also, note the illustration: the great evil seems to be returning... from the direction of the Lost Woods.)

Okay, so in a world broken by Ganondorf (adult timeline), there's no way to stop Majora from making everything flood. Did Kaepora ever appear in the adult timeline? I don't remember, but wasn't a great part of his role in adult OOT replaced by Sheik? If I'm right, then that pretty much confirms this post. If I'm not, oh well, Kaepora cares about doomed worlds too. (He only goes to Termina so its evil doesn't assault Hyrule.) Fake edit: According to Zelda Wiki, he only appears in the adult timeline during the Spirit Temple bit. Sort of shoots this part down, except Spirit Temple is more connected with Young Link than any other Adult Link temple.

...I lost my train of thought. This is why I don't come here often <.<

tl;dr Kaepora is the Lawful to HMS's Chaotic (maybe Terminian counterparts? that contradicts the above, but eh). He dimension hops, he might time hop (LA doesn't count because it was a dream--did he appear anywhere else? IDR.). He's trying to play Ganondorf and Majora against each other. He knows WAY too much in any case. He's probably important to figuring out the timeline. Also, the great evil that returned to Hyrule in the Adult Timeline was Majora, not Dorf.

(Why do I feel like Skyward Sword is going to shoot this down so hard? Maybe we'll learn the owl's origins. Also, apologies on the thread derailment. This post makes me look ignorant, I bet.)
 

ZERO...

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Two words: sequel hook? ;)

tl;dr warning

There's something else you don't go far into, however, and that is Kaepora Gaebora. My memory is foggy, do we find out in either game what he's really up to? Is it the same one in both realms, or are they mirror images (like the other characters)? If the former, does he have a Termina counterpart? And same for HMS.

I ask because in both games, he has a vested interest in helping Link defeat the villains, perhaps more than the other people (think of the old "why do the shopkeepers charge the heroes?" question, in reverse). Obviously, Kaepora doesn't want to let the worlds end, but it seems like he knows more than he should. "The swamp was destined to fade anyway"--operative word is "fade". Kaepora is merely an owl, and yet in OOT is more helpful to Link than anyone else bar the Sages, Navi, Deku Tree, etc. He clearly knows more than he should.

Spontaneous theory time!

Termina is a mirror world to Hyrule, linked through the Lost Woods, as we know. Termina is rotting, cursed if you will, and that means that whatever force is decaying it might escape to Hyrule. Kaepora is the only one who notices (besides us players, HMS and assumedly Link). He's a dimension hopper, much like HMS. Evil is growing too powerful--first Dorf ends up in the sacred realm, then Majora gets busy pulling his best Xanatos impression (yeah, I'm a troper). Kaepora originally intended to get the two to fight, that whichever wins might be weakened and thus easier for the hero to deal with. But then Link gets sealed away in the sacred realm. The hero isn't there to confront Majora. Would it take Majora seven years to break into Hyrule? (Tangent: WHOA WHOA WHOA. Yeah it did. A lot longer, actually. Remember the intro to WW? The great evil returned again... but the hero did not appear. The great evil was not Ganondorf redux. It was Majora. Legends have been confused since the flood. Also, note the illustration: the great evil seems to be returning... from the direction of the Lost Woods.)

Okay, so in a world broken by Ganondorf (adult timeline), there's no way to stop Majora from making everything flood. Did Kaepora ever appear in the adult timeline? I don't remember, but wasn't a great part of his role in adult OOT replaced by Sheik? If I'm right, then that pretty much confirms this post. If I'm not, oh well, Kaepora cares about doomed worlds too. (He only goes to Termina so its evil doesn't assault Hyrule.) Fake edit: According to Zelda Wiki, he only appears in the adult timeline during the Spirit Temple bit. Sort of shoots this part down, except Spirit Temple is more connected with Young Link than any other Adult Link temple.

...I lost my train of thought. This is why I don't come here often <.<

tl;dr Kaepora is the Lawful to HMS's Chaotic (maybe Terminian counterparts? that contradicts the above, but eh). He dimension hops, he might time hop (LA doesn't count because it was a dream--did he appear anywhere else? IDR.). He's trying to play Ganondorf and Majora against each other. He knows WAY too much in any case. He's probably important to figuring out the timeline. Also, the great evil that returned to Hyrule in the Adult Timeline was Majora, not Dorf.

(Why do I feel like Skyward Sword is going to shoot this down so hard? Maybe we'll learn the owl's origins. Also, apologies on the thread derailment. This post makes me look ignorant, I bet.)
Hmm, what you say is rather interesting. Also, Kaepora does appear in the adult timeline once. When Link is learning the Requiem of Spirit, one can see the owl in the background flying off somewhere.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGigmoFQ5gM Here's a video of it. At 1:00, he appears to be watching Link and Sheik. However, unlike when Link was a child, he never talks to Link. Instead, at 1:17, he flies off towards... well, I'm not sure what would be in that direction. The Gerudo Valley, iIrc, is in a slightly different direction. Also, I believe that there is no mention of Kaepora's name in Majora's Mask. He does act similarly to the one in OoT, though, so it can be assumed that they are the same owl. However, Kaepora being in Hyrule during the adult Link timeline makes plenty of sense. Although Termina (for now) is still fine, Majora is hiding somewhere in Hyrule (according to my theory at least). It is likely that his seal was broken. He may have heard of Link, and because of this, he waited until that boy defeated Ganondorf. Once Link left Hyrule, Majora came out of hiding, as powerful as ever. This essentially undid everything that, in your theory, Kaepora worked for.

This could support your theory that the new evil that caused Hyrule to be flooded was not Ganon, but Majora. Not to mention that in WW, Ganon says that his power was limited because the Master Sword was in its pedestal. However, the legend depicts the evil as being incredibly powerful, which Ganon could not have been due to his limited power. Majora was still powerful, though, and could have easily caused such destruction. The way that Majora ended Hyrule (in an apocalyptic way) was also very fitting of him. After Hyrule had flooded, Majora went back to Termina (and may have possibly done something similar, giving rise to the world that PH and ST take place in. In fact, until the fourth dungeon, ST's dungeons heavily resemble Majora's Mask's).

Laslty, I also have a bit of a theory on where Majora's Mask was hiding. I believe that it was the Forest Temple. The forest's temple creepy atmosphere, abundance of dead creatures (definitely more than any other forest-related dungeon), and even the background music are all very fitting for a place that Majora is in. There is very little known about Majora, but it is known that wherever he goes, he causes destruction. Before Majora came to the Forest Temple, it may have looked brighter and cleaner. The twisted halls could also be because of Majora (note how the hallway that leads to the inside of the Clock Tower is also twisted). So why didn't he show himself when Link went there? Well, again, he needed Link to kill Ganon so that he could begin his reign of terror on Hyrule.
 

MuraRengan

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Very, very interesting. I particularly like the idea that Majora created the Fierce Diety's Mask as a ruse. For the longest time I've had trouble making sense of the Fierce Deity Mask's origins and purpose in the game, and your theory puts some great sense into it. Not to mention, it has some serious implications along with it as well. The FDM can only be attained when all the masks are gathered. The mask gathering quests represent Link bringing hope back to all the people he meets. To think that Majora manipulates this hope in order to trick Link into thinking that hope is stronger than pure evil, it's a chilling concept.
 

popsofctown

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I hope necro rules don't apply too heavily in this subforum, since this is a front page topic anyhow.

I think you aren't looking at the Happy Mask Man's motivations right. He was toting around Majora's Mask fully knowing it was full of evil. Else, how could he make an assessment about whether the mask still contained evil. It's also doubtful he came across the mask in a way that would make him think it's a-ok. He clearly has never tried it on, and a purveyor of masks probably would want to test the fit.

He's disappointed the evil has left the mask. It made the mask more valuable and more exotic, more of an impressive piece in his collection. He was probably hoping to get the mask back with all the evil still inside, simply by means of separating it from Skullkid. Unfortunately it didn't go inactive at that point, because of the power of the moon. I think that's because the moon "wore" the mask.. the moon had gotten close enough that if it wore a normally sized mask on its face, it'd occupy the same space as the rooftop fight. The strength of the wearer has a lot to do with how powerful the mask is.

I don't think the mask's spirit lives on. I think the reason the Happy Mask Man's assessment was so ominous is that there's always more where that came from. I think Majora is a sorcerer who enchants evil masks and other stuff all the time.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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Very, very interesting. I particularly like the idea that Majora created the Fierce Diety's Mask as a ruse. For the longest time I've had trouble making sense of the Fierce Deity Mask's origins and purpose in the game, and your theory puts some great sense into it. Not to mention, it has some serious implications along with it as well. The FDM can only be attained when all the masks are gathered. The mask gathering quests represent Link bringing hope back to all the people he meets. To think that Majora manipulates this hope in order to trick Link into thinking that hope is stronger than pure evil, it's a chilling concept.
Since it was bumped already, your theory about the FDM is backed by the way that it is only usable on specific battlefields. It's not like it's coming back to bite him in the *** later unless I am misremembering and it could only be used against Majora's fiends which would mean it could likely be used against him later.
 

escro

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wow. i love this theory. i REALLY dont know about the whole "it wasn't ganon in WW but Majora," theory but i like the one about the Fierce Deity Mask. it makes sense in an odd and somewhat depressing way.
i feel so sorry for Link now. going through all those hardships only to be toyed by Majora.
I, too, would love to see Majora come back as a villain in another Zelda game. i dunno if it will be likely in Skyward Sword, but hopefully in later games....

good work though. and it would be awesome if other people could come up with suporting facts to somehow support this theory. my theorycraft on MM isnt extensive enough haha
 

PsychoIncarnate

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I completely disagree.

I think the happy mask salesman was aware of the whole situation going on, and was pulling everyone's strings the whole time.

I'm not saying he's evil, he definitely knew more than he was saying. Like he was fullfilling some kind of prophecy for the mask being destroyed, but maybe not something THAT cliche...
 

escro

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so i was thinking about what psychoincarnate was saying, and i had an idea.
yknow on the moon, you have to give all your masks to the kids to get the FDM, and i was thinking... was it really worth it?
theres been times where i havent gotten all the masks and i did fine...
so heres my idea: the HMS was behind it all along, and tricks Link into going on his quest to find Majora's Mask and the skull Kid etc etc.... and for what purpose?
to get more masks!

so yeah, absolutely no evidence to back up, just the fact that the HMS likes masks, and that you had to give away all your masks to the kids on the moon.
 

Pivot(PIVT)

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the HMS was behind it all along, and tricks Link into going on his quest to find Majora's Mask and the skull Kid etc etc.... and for what purpose?
to get more masks!
uh . . . . no. HMS would have to plan it all, win the friendship of the Skull Kid, obtain Majora's Mask, lose it, get it back, correctly predict the courage, strength, and mental capacity of Link, fake emotions (much less switch it around every minute or so), assume Tatl and Tael didn't get in the way(same goes for all the other NPCs), make up a brilliant story, assume the contents of the Moon (unless he hasn't already visited it, which would nearly be impossible for him), and protect himself from all the benevolent forces in Termina just in case those forces would figure out his insane strategy. All for about 30 or so extra masks, which he wouldn't make much money on anyways.

So . . . unlikely.:glare: But good imagination.
 

PsychoIncarnate

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uh . . . . no. HMS would have to plan it all, win the friendship of the Skull Kid, obtain Majora's Mask, lose it, get it back, correctly predict the courage, strength, and mental capacity of Link, fake emotions (much less switch it around every minute or so), assume Tatl and Tael didn't get in the way(same goes for all the other NPCs), make up a brilliant story, assume the contents of the Moon (unless he hasn't already visited it, which would nearly be impossible for him), and protect himself from all the benevolent forces in Termina just in case those forces would figure out his insane strategy. All for about 30 or so extra masks, which he wouldn't make much money on anyways.

So . . . unlikely.:glare: But good imagination.
Well, he was in hyrule during Link's first adventure. Link even worked for him. He had time to study Link's personality and habits
 

ZeldaHistorian

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ZERO... said:
Response to OP:
I would like to start off by mentioning the first quote set:

“It is an accursed item from legend that is said to have been used by an ancient tribe in its hexing rituals.”

“…the ancient ones, fearing such catastrophe, sealed the mask in shadow forever, preventing its misuse. … “…But I feel it.”

“I went to great lengths to get that legendary mask. When I finally had it…I could sense the doom of a dark omen brewing. It was that unwelcome feeling that makes your hair stand on end.”

These three statements are very important. The second statement demonstrates that the mask itself was sealed away, not that evil was sealed in it. The first statement demonstrates that the mask was accursed and that no evil was “Sealed” in there, rather it was cursed. It also demonstrates that its absolute purpose was for hexing rituals (as you mentioned). The third statement demonstrates the fact that he sensed great evil in it. From these statements we can determine that by saying (actual quote) “Oh…So the evil has left the mask after all” he was expressing shock and disbelief that such evil could be gone. Really, a curse can be broken, which Link did. Breaking a curse usually means that evil has left something and disappeared completely. The 3 stages of Majora could represent (and probably does) the different ritual types that the mask was used for. So from this we see the 2 loopholes: 1) The evil was not sealed in the mask. It was just a cursed item used for evil things. 2) Majoras mask does not necessarily have a will of its own, rather, it brings the evil/bad intentions out of the user. By bringing out the intentions of the user, once the mask has drawn out all of the users evil intention, it can then act on the intended will of the user; as if leeching evil out of the user is its source of power. If it was indeed a sentient being, once it was release from being sealed away by the happy mask salesman, it could/would have just gone on a rampage on its own. Sealing something away still leaves its power intact. We see this between OOT and WW where Ganondorf was sealed away, but retained his power and eventually broke free just as powerful as before. You can use the argument that it was the triforce of power that allowed him to do so. But it is important to remember that like ganondorf, the power was never removed from the mask for from Ganondorf, merely sealed away. This brings me to my next important quote set to support this claim:

“Certainly, he had far too many weaknesses to use my power.”

“A puppet that can no longer be used is mere garbage.”

“This puppet’s role has just ended…” “I…I shall consume. Consume…Consume everything.”

The mask leeched off of the evil intent/desires of the skull kid until there was no evil left inside of the skull kid. The first quote demonstrates this limit had been reached because his weakness was the support of his friends. Once the skull kid saw his friends come to his aid, all evil intentions were lost. In this way, the second quote comes into play, the skull kid was a puppet, the mask again, cannot act on its own, but once it leeched enough evil, it could act on the will of the user. The feelings of hope and happiness within the skull kid nullified the effects of the mask on him, causing a stalemate where the skull kid faints. The mask however does not understand hope and happiness, discards the skull kid and continues on the path it feels should be completed: consuming everything. This is the power the ancient ones feared: the fact that the mask goes too far. This probably happened with the ancients causing them to seal the mask away. This also negates the argument that “…Majora’s slowly growing influence over the skull kid as the skull kid doesn’t notice the influence until it’s too late.” Rather it’s the other way around. It’s the skull kids’ influence on the mask, as mentioned above.”

As for “this child like personality.” I believe that this was a metaphor demonstrating that a child acting in anger does so wholly, but is not aware that they are acting in anger, as they do not know what anger is. Major as I stated above acts out of evil. Evil can only exist when there is an understanding of Good. Since Majora only knows evil, and is not a sentient being, he is acting blinding, on the intentions of others, again like a child.

As for the Fierce Deities mask; we can safely assume that since the ancients used a mask whose purpose was for evil intentions, that they also had a mask that was for good intentions. How would they seal away such an evil mask? The Fierce Deities mask. The Fierce Deities mask was put inside of Majoras mask in order to negate the power within it. You might ask, “then how could majora have committed all of those evil acts if its power was negated?” Again, it fed off the intentions of evil the skull kid had. In order for Majora to attain its full potential, it needed to remove the mask from itself. But the mask could only be removed from himself if the person receiving it could wield the power, otherwise, the mask would never have left him. Since the masks that Link collects are symbols of happiness, we can assume that the combined happiness of all those masks was equivalent to the power of good the Fierce Deities mask held. You might say, “but yea the boss fight was the same, his forms didn’t change much with or without your having or using the Fierce Deities mask, so how does that make any sense?” Well, it was a double edged sword. If Majora didn’t give Link the mask, his power would still be weak; and in this way it takes longer to beat him because link isn’t as powerful. Without it, he is at full power, but Link becomes more powerful also. Why does this happen? We can see that Majora has 2 sources of power 1) Evil intention from within a host & 2) Inherent evil power from within itself as a mask. The Fierce Deities mask works in the same way, which is why it is limited to “boss battles” its power is only supposed to be used for good and in certain situations. The Fierce Deities mask has a host from which to draw a source of power: 1) Link, and 2) has an inherently large power of good in it, equivalent to the evil in Majora. In this way, Majora can easily be defeated.

I hope this makes sense, please let me know if I need to clarify anything. I created this account specifically for this question as my friend brought this topic to my attention. And because I love these games so much I felt the need to participate :-D

Thanks!

~ ZeldaHistorian[/QUOTE]
 

ZERO...

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I would like to start off by mentioning the first quote set:

“It is an accursed item from legend that is said to have been used by an ancient tribe in its hexing rituals.”

“…the ancient ones, fearing such catastrophe, sealed the mask in shadow forever, preventing its misuse. … “…But I feel it.”

“I went to great lengths to get that legendary mask. When I finally had it…I could sense the doom of a dark omen brewing. It was that unwelcome feeling that makes your hair stand on end.”

These three statements are very important. The second statement demonstrates that the mask itself was sealed away, not that evil was sealed in it. The first statement demonstrates that the mask was accursed and that no evil was “Sealed” in there, rather it was cursed. It also demonstrates that its absolute purpose was for hexing rituals (as you mentioned). The third statement demonstrates the fact that he sensed great evil in it. From these statements we can determine that by saying (actual quote) “Oh…So the evil has left the mask after all” he was expressing shock and disbelief that such evil could be gone. Really, a curse can be broken, which Link did. Breaking a curse usually means that evil has left something and disappeared completely. The 3 stages of Majora could represent (and probably does) the different ritual types that the mask was used for. So from this we see the 2 loopholes: 1) The evil was not sealed in the mask. It was just a cursed item used for evil things. 2) Majoras mask does not necessarily have a will of its own, rather, it brings the evil/bad intentions out of the user. By bringing out the intentions of the user, once the mask has drawn out all of the users evil intention, it can then act on the intended will of the user; as if leeching evil out of the user is its source of power. If it was indeed a sentient being, once it was release from being sealed away by the happy mask salesman, it could/would have just gone on a rampage on its own. Sealing something away still leaves its power intact. We see this between OOT and WW where Ganondorf was sealed away, but retained his power and eventually broke free just as powerful as before. You can use the argument that it was the triforce of power that allowed him to do so. But it is important to remember that like ganondorf, the power was never removed from the mask for from Ganondorf, merely sealed away. This brings me to my next important quote set to support this claim:

“Certainly, he had far too many weaknesses to use my power.”

“A puppet that can no longer be used is mere garbage.”

“This puppet’s role has just ended…” “I…I shall consume. Consume…Consume everything.”

The mask leeched off of the evil intent/desires of the skull kid until there was no evil left inside of the skull kid. The first quote demonstrates this limit had been reached because his weakness was the support of his friends. Once the skull kid saw his friends come to his aid, all evil intentions were lost. In this way, the second quote comes into play, the skull kid was a puppet, the mask again, cannot act on its own, but once it leeched enough evil, it could act on the will of the user. The feelings of hope and happiness within the skull kid nullified the effects of the mask on him, causing a stalemate where the skull kid faints. The mask however does not understand hope and happiness, discards the skull kid and continues on the path it feels should be completed: consuming everything. This is the power the ancient ones feared: the fact that the mask goes too far. This probably happened with the ancients causing them to seal the mask away. This also negates the argument that “…Majora’s slowly growing influence over the skull kid as the skull kid doesn’t notice the influence until it’s too late.” Rather it’s the other way around. It’s the skull kids’ influence on the mask, as mentioned above.”

As for “this child like personality.” I believe that this was a metaphor demonstrating that a child acting in anger does so wholly, but is not aware that they are acting in anger, as they do not know what anger is. Major as I stated above acts out of evil. Evil can only exist when there is an understanding of Good. Since Majora only knows evil, and is not a sentient being, he is acting blinding, on the intentions of others, again like a child.

As for the Fierce Deities mask; we can safely assume that since the ancients used a mask whose purpose was for evil intentions, that they also had a mask that was for good intentions. How would they seal away such an evil mask? The Fierce Deities mask. The Fierce Deities mask was put inside of Majoras mask in order to negate the power within it. You might ask, “then how could majora have committed all of those evil acts if its power was negated?” Again, it fed off the intentions of evil the skull kid had. In order for Majora to attain its full potential, it needed to remove the mask from itself. But the mask could only be removed from himself if the person receiving it could wield the power, otherwise, the mask would never have left him. Since the masks that Link collects are symbols of happiness, we can assume that the combined happiness of all those masks was equivalent to the power of good the Fierce Deities mask held. You might say, “but yea the boss fight was the same, his forms didn’t change much with or without your having or using the Fierce Deities mask, so how does that make any sense?” Well, it was a double edged sword. If Majora didn’t give Link the mask, his power would still be weak; and in this way it takes longer to beat him because link isn’t as powerful. Without it, he is at full power, but Link becomes more powerful also. Why does this happen? We can see that Majora has 2 sources of power 1) Evil intention from within a host & 2) Inherent evil power from within itself as a mask. The Fierce Deities mask works in the same way, which is why it is limited to “boss battles” its power is only supposed to be used for good and in certain situations. The Fierce Deities mask has a host from which to draw a source of power: 1) Link, and 2) has an inherently large power of good in it, equivalent to the evil in Majora. In this way, Majora can easily be defeated.

I hope this makes sense, please let me know if I need to clarify anything. I created this account specifically for this question as my friend brought this topic to my attention. And because I love these games so much I felt the need to participate :-D

Thanks!

~ ZeldaHistorian
Oh, wow, I never thought that I'd get such an in-depth response. To try to counter the statements you made, well, first, the Happy Mask Salesman didn't exactly seem shocked. Then again, I guess you could interpret it that way (really, due to a lack of voice acting, that could be interpreted several different ways). He seemed more disappointed than anything else (in my opinion). Two: I can see what you're saying about Majora's Incarnation imitating some sort of ritual dance, but Wrath and Mask are simply fighting you (with rather disappointing moves). Although, you did give me an idea just now. (Slightly off topic) Is it possible that Majora's Incarnation's dances and weird movements are simply for replicating those ancient rituals in order to tap into Majora's Wrath? It would debunk my theory, but it seems like an interesting idea to me. Third, Ganondorf had lost power upon being sealed away in Windwaker for sure. In fact, he even tells Link that he was foolish for removing the Master Sword from its resting place as it unsealed the rest of his power. It is likely that Majora was in a similar situation with being sealed in the mask. Once Link separated the supposed spirit from the mask, the rest of his power was unsealed (both Ganondorf and Majora were powerful even before having all of their power unsealed). Also, Majora's Mask may have been sealed away and then unsealed by the HMS, but Majora was not unsealed. It wasn't until the Skull Kid started to wear the mask that Majora was able to begin breaking this seal (this is assuming that Majora was essentially trapped and had no access to any of its own power until it was able to borrow the weak power that the Skull Kid possessed. It used the Skull Kid's power to gain back some of its own. Over time, one can see the Skull Kid become corrupted by Majora's influence on him as he loses this power to the mask until he is essentially acting as a puppet. Once he used up the Skull Kid's power to obtain some of its own back, it promptly discarded him as the Skull Kid no longer was of any use to Majora).

Four, I see your point when you say that the mask was leeching off of the Skull Kid's own evil intentions, but to me it seems that the mask's influence is actually responsible for those intentions. As we see in the cutscene where Tatl describes how she and Tael met the Skull Kid, one can see that the Skull Kid is simply sad and lonely. He doesn't intend to hurt anyone or anything; all he want to do is play (what he considers to be) harmless tricks. One has to remember that the Skull Kid has a childlike mind, and such a mind is easily influenced. Confusion, sadness, and loneliness can be warped into blind hatred, anger, and a genocidal mindset with even a small influence in a child's mind. I don't believe that the Skull Kid was initially evil at all until Majora affected him (sure, he knocked out the HMS, but it was likely the result of a trick that he considered harmless. Either that, or he didn't know that stealing was wrong. Remember, children are usually selfish and don't think to much about what they're doing as long as they get what they want in the end). However, I do agree with one of your points concerning the Skull Kid. It is likely that the good inside of the Skull Kid surged so quickly through the Skull Kid's body when he heard the Giant's call that Majora had briefly lost control of him. Also, I stand by my belief that Majora was corrupting the Skull Kid (one can even see just how far he's corrupted simply by looking at him with the telescope on the third day. It appears that Majora has full control over him at that time).

Fifth, I kind of doubt that Majora doesn't know what good is. Admittedly, Majora has very little dialogue, but it seems to know what it is doing is wrong. After all, it calls the Skull Kid a puppet (meaning it knows full well what was going on and that Link, Tatl, and even Tael knew what the Skull Kid was doing was considered wrong and therefore evil. At the very least, had Majora not known the difference between right and wrong before, it definitely would after the Clock Tower scene. Yet, it consciously chose to continue doing the wrong thing).

Lastly, as for the Fierce Deity point. I thought that it was implied that the Fierce Deity Mask actually has dark powers that very well may be worse than Majora's and that the only reason Link isn't corrupted by it is because of his pure heart? Honestly, I think of the Fierce Deity as being one of two things: A. A mask made up by Majora in order to assist Link in unsealing Majora or B. a mask containing the spirit of an actual deity that Majora killed. Said deity is completely neutral and lends its power to whoever wears it without affecting the wearer's personality itself. In a way, choice B is like Majora's Mask without the corruption effect. Also, according to your theory, if Link is in possession of the Fierce Deity Mask, then Majora should have full access to all of its power. However, if you are in possession of the Fierce Deity Mask and do not wear it (therefore meaning that Majora should be put at a massive advantage), Majora does not change the way it battles nor do its damage outputs change whatsoever.

Honestly, this is the first time I've ever responded to someone making counters to a theory (and, don't get me wrong, I love it since usually when I talk about theories like this to my friends that are fans of Zelda but don't go in-depth, they usually just nod and agree with me automatically without thinking much about it), so I apologize if some of my points don't make sense or go against what I said in the original post (I made that thing like four months ago :/) or if they don't exactly counter yours. If I forgot to mention any other points of yours, it's likely that I agree with them with the obvious exception of Majora's Mask not containing a sentient being. Also, I'm kind of flattered that you signed up (initially I mean) simply to respond to this theory. Thanks! Also, as you can probably tell, I love the LoZ series, too, especially Majora's Mask. In fact, this is less of a theory and more of an, "OH GOD, PLEASE MAKE MAJORA A VILLAIN AGAIN; I'M SO BLOODY DESPERATE TO SEE THE VILLAIN I GREW UP WITH IN ANOTHER ZELDA GAME D:"
 

#HBC | ZoZo

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I didn't read the wall above me, because the way it is formatted was REALLY discouraging. My apologies if I'm repeating something.

The second statement demonstrates that the mask itself was sealed away, not that evil was sealed in it. The first statement demonstrates that the mask was accursed and that no evil was “Sealed” in there, rather it was cursed. It also demonstrates that its absolute purpose was for hexing rituals (as you mentioned).
You draw a clear line between something being cursed and an evil being locked inside something. Well, there isn't. If an evil is locked inside my TV, I would definitely consider it cursed.
This crumbles one of your counters main pillars, the mask is be cursed because there is evil in it.

the second quote comes into play, the skull kid was a puppet
Countering your own logic. The Skull Kid was merely a puppet, puppets are used by others. Other beings. Majora's Mask is definitely sentient.

If it was indeed a sentient being, once it was release from being sealed away by the happy mask salesman, it could/would have just gone on a rampage on its own.
+
The mask however does not understand hope and happiness, discards the skull kid and continues on the path it feels should be completed: consuming everything.
First you say "He ain't sentient" but afterwards you attribute Majora's Mask with humanly features. Such as understanding.
First you say that the Mask should've gone on a rampage but didn't, afterward you say Majora's Mask went on to consume everything.

We can see that Majora has 2 sources of power 1) Evil intention from within a host & 2) Inherent evil power from within itself as a mask.
Within the mask. An entity.



I haven't replied to nearly everything, but your post really doesn't hold much water.
I still stand by my Fierce Deity = Terminian Ganon & Majora's Mask = Terminian Link theory.
 

ZeldaHistorian

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I’ve honestly never dove so deeply into the back-story of this game, and because I’ve played both so many times I really wanted to be involved as the only person I have to speak with is also the person who brought this to my attention. Don’t get me wrong I could talk about this with him all day, but we never even thought to speak about backstory! Haha.

Since you both seem to be hinting at the same the point: Mask as a sentient being, I will respond to both of you at the same time (in a general sense).

Brosuke, you have brought to my attention the weakness of my argument in that 1) I was not clear on the whole sentient being thing and 2) that my language was confusing/contradictory. The original reason why I used language towards the end of my argument that would suggest the mask was a sentient being was to demonstrate that Majoras Mask had taken on the intentions & personality/qualities of its owner/wearer. While I agree with ZERO… that the Skull Kid himself was not evil, I do feel that he did have some resentment within him from being rejected from his friends (because they did not like having tricks played on them). Majora was able to magnify/increase the negative feeling he felt (of rejection) and slowly the Skull Kid acted on that intent, in essence, Majora really drew it out of him but did not force him to act on it. I don’t feel that the Skull Kid was forced into it. If the Skull Kid had rejected those ideas, Majora would not have been able to grow more powerful. So really, Majoras Mask became the unrestrained manifestation of rejection the Skull Kid felt. This is why I feel the ancient ones feared the mask and sealed it away. The mask would go too far on the users intent because it had no will to make a decision on its own and no understanding of good and evil. Its purpose was for negative or evil/bad things, it was never used for good, so it could never recognize good to begin with. This is why we never see Majoras “character” (I use that term loosely) until the Skull Kid feels a surge of happiness that his friends are coming to his aid. At that point, all Majora has is what was taken from the Skull kid: those negative feelings of rejection which would and did lead to feelings of revenge. In order to get to feelings of revenge the Skull Kid had to have dwelled upon those feelings for extended periods of time. Since the evil happenings took place over the course of a month, it is easy to see how the Skull Kid would act on them and be twisted by them. Again, the Mask cannot put those feelings into him, it can only draw those feelings out, and when someone feels rejection long enough, it leads to revenge, and during this time, the Mask become more powerful.

To say that the mask had power within it, does not necessarily mean it was an entity or being. The Deku Mask, Gorons Mask and Zoras Mask all were created from Beings. Their personalities did not get turned over to Link when he wore them, he simply took their forms. But, by taking those forms, he gained new power; power that resided within the mask. The same can be said to an extent with the Bunny hood (having the power within it to run faster, but no personality) or the Bomb mask (power of explosion but no personality). I feel that Majoras mask works in the same way. When I said that the Mask should have gone on a rampage when it was released from its seal, I mean it under the condition that it did in fact have a personality or was a sentient being. Since it took no action, (as ganondorf did in WW even though he was wearer) it would suggest that the mask did not hold a sentient being and is not a sentient being.

As for being a puppet, a puppet in our (human world) needs to be controlled by a human (or possibly computer). But since we are in Termina, where magic exists, why can’t magic control something? Magic is an energy or force. Energy or force does not have personality, again this goes back to Mask with power, but no personality.

I hope this clarifies my original intent and I apologize for making a weak argument in that manner.

I am having a blast with this meeting of the minds we are having. I honestly would love it if your theory was true, but I don’t think that Majoras Mask was a sentient being. I would also love to see Majora come back as a boss! :-D

I realize I didn’t respond to everything in ZERO…’s post but the main point seems to be what important.

If anything else is unclear, or you see any more loopholes in my argument, either new or that I have not address please let me know so that I can clarify. I have not problem admitting i'm wrong if the proof is there :-)

~ ZeldaHistorian
 

#HBC | ZoZo

Shocodoro Blagshidect
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Its purpose was for negative or evil/bad things, it was never used for good, so it could never recognize good to begin with.
Bad doesn't exist without good. This argument is null. As is most of your argument.

Majora's Mask being made entirely off of the wearer's emotions is never hinted. A sealed being is never at 100% power, which is why it seeks a host to strengthen it.


To say that the mask had power within it, does not necessarily mean it was an entity or being. The Deku Mask, Gorons Mask and Zoras Mask all were created from Beings. Their personalities did not get turned over to Link when he wore them, he simply took their forms. But, by taking those forms, he gained new power; power that resided within the mask. The same can be said to an extent with the Bunny hood (having the power within it to run faster, but no personality) or the Bomb mask (power of explosion but no personality). I feel that Majoras mask works in the same way.
Except that Majora's Mask can actually function without a body, the masks can't.

In no way is it implied that Majora's Mask is either:
1. Living off of emotions
2. Not a sentient being

There's just no direct proof that Majora leeched off of Skull Kids emotions
There's just no direct proof that Majora can't discern between good and evil.
 

ZERO...

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Brosuke, you have brought to my attention the weakness of my argument in that 1) I was not clear on the whole sentient being thing and 2) that my language was confusing/contradictory. The original reason why I used language towards the end of my argument that would suggest the mask was a sentient being was to demonstrate that Majoras Mask had taken on the intentions & personality/qualities of its owner/wearer. While I agree with ZERO… that the Skull Kid himself was not evil, I do feel that he did have some resentment within him from being rejected from his friends (because they did not like having tricks played on them). Majora was able to magnify/increase the negative feeling he felt (of rejection) and slowly the Skull Kid acted on that intent, in essence, Majora really drew it out of him but did not force him to act on it. I don’t feel that the Skull Kid was forced into it. If the Skull Kid had rejected those ideas, Majora would not have been able to grow more powerful. So really, Majoras Mask became the unrestrained manifestation of rejection the Skull Kid felt. This is why I feel the ancient ones feared the mask and sealed it away. The mask would go too far on the users intent because it had no will to make a decision on its own and no understanding of good and evil. Its purpose was for negative or evil/bad things, it was never used for good, so it could never recognize good to begin with. This is why we never see Majoras “character” (I use that term loosely) until the Skull Kid feels a surge of happiness that his friends are coming to his aid. At that point, all Majora has is what was taken from the Skull kid: those negative feelings of rejection which would and did lead to feelings of revenge. In order to get to feelings of revenge the Skull Kid had to have dwelled upon those feelings for extended periods of time. Since the evil happenings took place over the course of a month, it is easy to see how the Skull Kid would act on them and be twisted by them. Again, the Mask cannot put those feelings into him, it can only draw those feelings out, and when someone feels rejection long enough, it leads to revenge, and during this time, the Mask become more powerful.

In response to the first paragraph, I see where you're coming from. I mean, it's kind of hard to present any concrete evidence about how exactly the mask influenced the Skull Kid besides inferences made from his actions throughout the game. I've already presented all of my evidence as to why I think it corrupted him (although, I suppose he did magnify the resentment in the Skull Kid as well), and if that doesn't convince you, then I really don't have anything else that I can do in order to sway your opinion.
To say that the mask had power within it, does not necessarily mean it was an entity or being. The Deku Mask, Gorons Mask and Zoras Mask all were created from Beings. Their personalities did not get turned over to Link when he wore them, he simply took their forms. But, by taking those forms, he gained new power; power that resided within the mask. The same can be said to an extent with the Bunny hood (having the power within it to run faster, but no personality) or the Bomb mask (power of explosion but no personality). I feel that Majoras mask works in the same way. When I said that the Mask should have gone on a rampage when it was released from its seal, I mean it under the condition that it did in fact have a personality or was a sentient being. Since it took no action, (as ganondorf did in WW even though he was wearer) it would suggest that the mask did not hold a sentient being and is not a sentient being.
In response to your second paragraph, I imagine that (assuming Majora is a sentient being), unlike Ganondorf, when it was sealed, its power was completely or almost completely sealed as well; as in, it had no access to any power that it once had (or at least it had too little power to do anything on its own but enough power to affect others) due to the incredibly powerful seal placed on it. Ganondorf had access to some of his power, at least enough to break out of the realm that he was sealed in. When the Skull Kid put on the mask, however, Majora was given a link to something with power, and through using that power, it was able to slowly regain its own power. The Skull Kid's will becoming weaker until the mask's desires overtook his own was simply a by-product of the Skull Kid losing his power (which is something that Majora intended to do). In response to the Deku Mask, Goron Mask, and Zora Mask theory, I believe that since all of the spirits inhabiting them essentially had their soul healed, they were willing to lend their powers to Link. The one exception to this is the Deku Mask for the first cycle of the game. However, the Deku Mask is a rather special case. It is the only thing in the game that you cannot take off willingly for a period of time as well as the only spirit that inhabits Link's body before it is healed (not counting the Fierce Deity which is a mystery in itself). The Skull Kid mentions that Link will stay that way forever while laughing hysterically. Thinking about it, this is true. However, why would the spirit not want to separate itself from Link's body? In my opinion, it's because the Deku Scrub did not want to give up on life and wanted to continue living, even if it has no control over its own body anymore, and if it had to, it would use someone else's body to do so. Remember, the Deku Scrub that was killed was very young and likely thought that it had not lived a fulfilling life or that it didn't find it fair it had only lived to be no older than a child. It was bound to the earth because of its immaturity and selfishness. Once Link plays the Song of Healing, though, its soul is healed and it decides to let go of life for the good of the world. In addition, Darmani asks Link to revive him so that he can save the Gorons initially. This shows his pride as he believes that he instead of Link should still save Snowhead. Therefore, Darmani was bound to the world by his pride, and only lends Link his power once his soul has been healed of this notion as well. Lastly, there is Mikau. Mikau does not ask to be revived or physically healed. He knows that his death is inevitable. However, he is bound to the world by his duty as a father to make sure that his eggs safely hatch. Once Link heals his soul, Mikau entrusts this duty to Link and is able to let go of his life. However, Majora does not want to let go of this world and simply be content with being the power source of the mask. Majora wants to live outside of the mask and cause destruction to the world like it had done before it was sealed. Because Majora has not let go of this world but has still been sealed in a mask, its desires affect the wearer. Either that, or since it's most likely still a living being, it has more of an affect on the mind of the wearer than a spirit would. It's not too different from how the spirit of the Deku Butler's son's initial attitude as well as how it affected Link, but rather than changing the outside appearance of the wearer, Majora changed the thoughts of the wearer (of course, it's possible that the Deku Butler's son's thoughts would eventually start affecting Link). Once again, everything I've said is assuming that Majora is an actual being.

By the way, I just want to say that I fully respect your theory, and it (mostly) does make sense. Honestly, there are a lot of different ways one can interpret Majora's Mask, so there are plenty of theories that could be considered possible.

Edit: Sorry.
 

kupo15

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Guys, please.

If you're replying to something, QUOTE it.
QFT.

Please follow Brosuke's formatting instead of quoting giant walls of texts and responded with an even bigger wall of text. One point at a time (per quote) is much more easily digestable not to mention it makes everyone want to read it otherwise they will feel overwhelmed and discouraged just by looking at it...like I am.
 

ZERO...

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QFT.

Please follow Brosuke's formatting instead of quoting giant walls of texts and responded with an even bigger wall of text. One point at a time (per quote) is much more easily digestable not to mention it makes everyone want to read it otherwise they will feel overwhelmed and discouraged just by looking at it...like I am.
I... I am very sorry. I'll remember to do that in the future. Thank you for telling me this. Once again, I deeply apologize for my errors (This is to both you and Brosuke as well as anyone with the same thought).
 

kupo15

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The "MM influence" argument
I honestly don't believe that Majora's Mask is acting like some sort of Voldemort. I think MM is more like the mask in the movie "The mask" (starring Jim Carrey) where by putting on MM, the skull kid turns evil from Majora's complete control over him (aka a curse). This will be explained below.

ZeldaHistorian said:
The Deku Mask, Gorons Mask and Zoras Mask all were created from Beings. Their personalities did not get turned over to Link when he wore them, he simply took their forms...I feel that Majoras mask works in the same way.
Not all masks are created equal as there are 4 different types of masks:
1. Simply masks
2. Mysterious Power Masks
3. Spirit Mask
4. Cursed Masks

When I mean by "Simply masks" there are several of masks that have absolutely no extraordinary powers...they are simply masks. These include: Postman's Hat, Kaefi Mask, Bremen Mask, Captain's Hat, Circus Leader's Mask, Keaton mask, Couples Mask, Don Gero's Mask, Garo's Mask, and Romani's Mask.

The "Mysterious Power masks" are masks that contain a mysterious power without the byproduct of a broken curse or magical healing. Of course we don't know how these were made exactly. They are: Mask of Scents, Giant's Mask, Stone's Mask, Bunny Hood Mask, Bomb Mask, All-Night Mask and the Fierce Deity.

The "Spirit masks" are masks that are formed through healing via the Song of Healing. They contain the spirit of what has been healed. These include: Goron, Deku, Zora, Kamaro's.

The "Cursed masks" are masks that contain curses that have yet to be "sealed" through breaking of a curse through different methods. These are: Majora's Mask, Mask of Truth, Gibdo's Mask, DEKU Mask, and the Great Fairy Mask.
______________________________
Sentient being argument
Now, not only will I prove that MM is in another category than the deku, goron and zora mask but in fact that the Deku and MM are in the same category. Further more, analyzing the similarities that MM shares with the other masks in its category will prove that MM is not a sentient being and is merely nothing more than a cursed mask.

The main body of proof to distinguish masks from each other is how they were made. The Goron, Zora and Kamaro masks were from healing "people" so that their spirit remains alive in the mask. This is found in the explanation of when you collect each mask
THE GAME said:
You got the Zora Mask! This mask contains the spirit of a legendary guitarist!
You got the Goron Mask! This mask contains the spirit of a proud Goron hero!
Here is where it gets different:
You got the Deku Mask to keep as a memento!
This makes sense because you didn't heal a deku scrub to get the mask. You were cursed to be a deku and playing the Song of Healing broke the curse. Furthermore, the HMS says that the Song of Healing can create masks.
Happy Mask Guy said:
This is a melody that heals evil magic and troubled spirits, turning them into masks
This proves 3 things:
1. That the Deku mask is not a part of the Goron and Zora category
2. The Song of Healing can break curses
3. The Song of Healing can create masks

I also want to take this moment to explain that when a mask's power is "sealed away" in it (curse or magic power) it is no longer a chaotic, unwieldy force. Proof is found when you receive the deku mask because the HMS says:
Fear not, for the magic has been sealed inside the mask.
This means that the magic/curse is still at full potential inside the mask with the exception being that it is now controllable.

___________________

Now we must analyse a very important mask in MM's category: The Mask of Truth. The Mask of Truth is the closest mask that explains what MM is, if not only being one in the same with the difference being an astronomical difference in power.

When you talk to the cursed man in the Skulltulah House after you break the curse, he explains how he became that way.
Cursed man said:
...someone told me I could become rich and he gave me this mask...but when I went to look, I was cursed!
We are not given any other back story to the origins of the mask. All we know is that the mask was created with a curse...NOT that the mask was created from a curse like the Deku Mask. This is a very important distinction.
We also learned 2 things:
1. There is more than one way to destroy a curse (destroy its source)
2. The power was sealed away but the evil was vanquished

The same logic can be applied to Majora's Mask. The HMS said that it was a cursed item used in hexing rituals.
Happy Mask Guy said:
It is an accursed item from legend that is said to have been used by an ancient tribe in its hexing rituals.
Once again, like the mask of truth, MM is a mask created with a curse and not from a curse. Its merely a cursed item and not a sentient being. When you defeat MM in battle, you are breaking the curse thus sealing away its power to become controllable and thus the evil is no longer. This is completely plausible because we know that curses can be broken in many different ways.
___________________
Unanswered questsions
This leaves us with some unanswered questions.
1. Who is Majora?
2. Who really is responsible for Termina's fate? Skull Kid or Majora?
3. Who are those 5 kids on the moon?
4. What really is the Fierce Deity's Mask?

One possible theory could be that Majora represents all 5 of those kids. This could be supported only if Majora was responsible for Termina's fate. If that is the case then our proof would be from the masks that each kid wears.
-4 kids to curse the guardians of the temples with cursed masks
-1 kid (the leader of the other 4) with an all powerful mask to bring about Termina's destruction

And if those 5 kids represent Majora, then why don't they appear in the final battle?

There isn't much information on the Fierce Deity's Mask. All we know is that the mask's power is equal to that of MM.
THE GAME said:
You got the Fierce Deity's Mask! Could this mask's dark powers be as bad as Majora?
Already we have doubt whether or not this mask is good or not. For all we know it could be the weaker representation of the triforce in a masked form. Lastly, we do not even know how this mask came to be. Was it created from healing a troubled soul/breaking a curse or was it created with powerful magic?


 

ZERO...

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Not all masks are created equal as there are 4 different types of masks:
1. Simply masks
2. Mysterious Power Masks
3. Spirit Mask
4. Cursed Masks

When I mean by "Simply masks" there are several of masks that have absolutely no extraordinary powers...they are simply masks. These include: Postman's Hat, Kaefi Mask, Bremen Mask, Captain's Hat, Circus Leader's Mask, Keaton mask, Couples Mask, Don Gero's Mask, Garo's Mask, and Romani's Mask.

The "Mysterious Power masks" are masks that contain a mysterious power without the byproduct of a broken curse or magical healing. Of course we don't know how these were made exactly. They are: Mask of Scents, Giant's Mask, Stone's Mask, Bunny Hood Mask, Bomb Mask, All-Night Mask and the Fierce Deity.

The "Spirit masks" are masks that are formed through healing via the Song of Healing. They contain the spirit of what has been healed. These include: Goron, Deku, Zora, Kamaro's.

The "Cursed masks" are masks that contain curses that have yet to be "sealed" through breaking of a curse through different methods. These are: Majora's Mask, Mask of Truth, Gibdo's Mask, DEKU Mask, and the Great Fairy Mask.
Okay, I agree with you there (I never thought about that before honestly).

This makes sense because you didn't heal a deku scrub to get the mask. You were cursed to be a deku and playing the Song of Healing broke the curse. Furthermore, the HMS says that the Song of Healing can create masks.
Well, you've already contradicted yourself here, but you probably didn't mean to, and simply saying that disproves your argument would be juvenile. It's heavily implied that Link was infused with the spirit of a Deku Scrub who had at one time been alive (the Deku Butler claims that Deku Link looks incredibly similar to his son. This uncanny likeness is mirrored with Link's other forms as they believe Goron Link and Zora Link to be Darmani and Mikau. The only reason the Deku Butler knows that Deku Link isn't his son is likely because the two shared an incredible closeness, which is proven during the end credits when the Deku Butler is weeping in front of what is hinted to be the dead body of his son). Once the Song of Healing is played, though, a mask can be created that houses the spirit of the Deku Scrub and at the same time heals its depressed soul. At the same time, it does break a curse, though, so your points about the Song of Healing still stands. However, I do believe that there is a spirit inside of the Deku Mask rather than a simple curse.

Now we must analyse a very important mask in MM's category: The Mask of Truth. The Mask of Truth is the closest mask that explains what MM is, if not only being one in the same with the difference being an astronomical difference in power.
There is a sort of a larger difference than just between their power. Majora's Mask appears to possess some sort of intelligence. It was able to manipulate the Skull Kid and use it as a puppet, and it is able to discern when said puppet is useless. Curses can be incredibly powerful, but I have yet to see a curse that is capable of forming logical thought, much less speech. The Mask of Truth, on the other hand, is simply a mask that curses greedy wearers (but at the same time allows one to listen to the words of Gossip Stones). It is not capable of any sort of thought.

More responses to come tomorrow. I have to leave for now, but I just got these thoughts in order, so I thought that I should post them.
 

kupo15

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It's heavily implied that Link was infused with the spirit of a Deku Scrub who had at one time been alive (the Deku Butler claims that Deku Link looks incredibly similar to his son.
I don't think you can safely assume this. This is a very special mask because we get it differently than the other 2. Though I can see how its a bit foolish to think that the deku mask doesn't contain the spirit of a deku scrub, if anything it doesn't contain the spirit of a particular deku scrub. In any case, its odd how any reference to the spirit of a deku is not given.

I still think that this is a special case as being a curse: one that transforms the wearer to a deku scrub. The song breaks the curse a seals the dark magic into the mask, not the "spirit" of an actual scrub because you don't heal any deku scubs depressed soul. Also, I don't think the Butler comparison is good proof because he says those same lines regardless of what form you are in. I think he is saying that Link's speedy skills reminds him of the races he had with his son.

On the other hand, the curse could have removed the butler's son's spirit (killing him) and transferred it to Link transforming him into a deku. Its plausible but not factual. But this point is pretty trivial to the main argument of MM being a sentient being. It was just another thing I came up with as I was arguing the major point.
Majora's Mask appears to possess some sort of intelligence. It was able to manipulate the Skull Kid and use it as a puppet, and it is able to discern when said puppet is useless
You are assuming that the mask is what's doing the talking. But is it? Or is it the moon or the kids on the moon? I know I'm playing devil's advocate here but there really is very little known about who Majora actually is: he could be the kid on the moon or a god controlling the mask for all we know. And for the question if Majora's Mask is still alive waiting revenge, there is no way to prove that either since we cannot put the mask on ourselves to see if its powers are controllable.
 

ZERO...

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I don't think you can safely assume this. This is a very special mask because we get it differently than the other 2. Though I can see how its a bit foolish to think that the deku mask doesn't contain the spirit of a deku scrub, if anything it doesn't contain the spirit of a particular deku scrub. In any case, its odd how any reference to the spirit of a deku is not given.

I still think that this is a special case as being a curse: one that transforms the wearer to a deku scrub. The song breaks the curse a seals the dark magic into the mask, not the "spirit" of an actual scrub because you don't heal any deku scubs depressed soul. Also, I don't think the Butler comparison is good proof because he says those same lines regardless of what form you are in. I think he is saying that Link's speedy skills reminds him of the races he had with his son. On the other hand, the curse could have removed the butler's son's spirit (killing him) and transferred it to Link transforming him into a deku. Its plausible but not factual. But this point is pretty trivial to the main argument of MM being a sentient being. It was just another thing I came up with as I was arguing the major point.
Ehh... okay, I guess I can see what you're saying. In any case, you are right; it's trivial to the actual topic.


You are assuming that the mask is what's doing the talking. But is it? Or is it the moon or the kids on the moon? I know I'm playing devil's advocate here but there really is very little known about who Majora actually is: he could be the kid on the moon or a god controlling the mask for all we know. And for the question if Majora's Mask is still alive waiting revenge, there is no way to prove that either since we cannot put the mask on ourselves to see if its powers are controllable.
It's pretty obvious that the mask itself (or rather, a being within the mask) is talking. Tatl, Tael, and Link look at the mask when it talks, all being very shocked. When the mask goes into the moon, it makes the moon more powerful as well. It'd honestly be more of a question of whether Majora or the moon is talking when it says, "I... I shall consume... consume... consume everything." I think that it's Majora talking myself since the moon goes away when Majora is "defeated," but the mask (and, in my opinion, the spirit) still exists, meaning that the moon was Majora's work and eventually a second puppet of sorts. Regardless, though, before the mask goes into the moon, it is definitely Majora talking

The kid on the moon wearing Majora's Mask may simply be a representation of Majora, or rather what it inteprets itself to be: a being that was rejected for its ideas (those ideas, of course, being detrimental to society) and therefore all alone. The other kids think that a game is playing something non-violent like hide-and-seek. Majora's representation believes that a game involves violence and usually death, therefore making it different from the rest. Because of this, Majora's representation is ostracized by the other kids. This is kind of grasping at straws, admittedly, but when it comes to interpreting the inside of the moon and the kids, there's no truly concrete evidence that supports a thesis about what they are or what they are supposed to represent.

Also, as my original post said, after the events of Majora's Mask, I believe that the mask and spirit (or demon) have been completely separated, making the mask powerless and Majora free of its prison.
 

escro

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i wonder what link did with the FDM after he defeated Majora.
although he wouldnt be one to exploit the tremendous power that came with it, im sure he would have been powerful enough to be able to control it..
 

kupo15

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It's pretty obvious that the mask itself (or rather, a being within the mask)
Yes the camera zooms on the mask but, is it Majora talking or the Skull Kid? I guess if it was the skull kid through Majora then that would make Majora a sentient being?

But still, I don't think we know enough about who Majora actually is to make any conclusions about this. Though I do feel that the curse on MM has been completely broken and destroyed from the world.
 

ZERO...

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Yes the camera zooms on the mask but, is it Majora talking or the Skull Kid? I guess if it was the skull kid through Majora then that would make Majora a sentient being?

But still, I don't think we know enough about who Majora actually is to make any conclusions about this. Though I do feel that the curse on MM has been completely broken and destroyed from the world.
Since Majora's Mask drops the Skull Kid and then says one final line of dialogue while the camera zooms in on it before departing to the moon, it is talking. At this point, it's pretty much impossible to refute that the mask wasn't talking. From this, it's easy to conclude that there is a sentient being inside of it (because masks can't talk normally). However, you are right that one can't make any 100% true conclusions about the fate of Majora after its battle with Link. My original post states my opinion about that already. However, I do respect your opinion, and I will say that there is the possibility that Link did compeletely destroy the being and/or broke the curse of the mask.

Also, unless I'm reading this incorrectly, you seem to be implying that if there even is a being inside the mask, it might not be Majora. This is also plausible (after all, one of the names of Majora's forms is "Majora's Incarnation." Maybe this being is simply an incarnation of the actual Majora). Therefore, I do somewhat agree with you when you say that we can't draw any real conclusions about Majora until we know more about who or what it is.
 

Orboknown

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so by that point you made about there being another beong in the mask,could there be two personalities in the mask?(one majora one "other"?)
 

ZERO...

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so by that point you made about there being another beong in the mask,could there be two personalities in the mask?(one majora one "other"?)
Oh, no, not exactly. I meant that although there is a sentient being residing within the mask, said being doesn't exactly have to be Majora itself. Majora, for all we know, could be a deity that simply created the being and mask (well, maybe not the mask. It's more likely that the ancient tribe did), and the being would function as an incarnation of Majora (but likely less powerful). I'm basically trying to say that there is more than just one possible identity of the being inside the mask, whether it be the actual Majora, simply an incarnation of itself that it created, or even something else (although, I believe that no matter the being, it survived the incident when Link defeated it).
 

Orboknown

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ok.So is this other being in the mask another of majoras puppets?something majora maybe transferred itself into at some point in time?
 

ZERO...

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ok.So is this other being in the mask another of majoras puppets?something majora maybe transferred itself into at some point in time?
Err, not really a puppet, but at the same time sort of. Like, a being made in the image of Majora with the same ideals but less powerful. However, it does have free will, so it's not a puppet. I'm mostly basing this new, much smaller theory on the name "Majora's Incarnation." A good example of what I'm talking about occurs in Okamiden to an extent (I won't spoil what it is exactly, though, for those that have yet to play the game). It's essentially just one possibility for the identity of the being in the mask is what I'm getting at really. There is no real concrete evidence beyond the second form of the Majora boss fight being called "Majora's Incarnation," and even that is sort of flimsy evidence.
 

Orboknown

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this is true.or maybe there are(i know i sound sorta stupid saying this) multiple beings sealed at different levels in the mask?as majoras mask leaches power from whoever is wearing it the different seals are broken?
 
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