Official Zero Project - Now Community-based!

[Eldiran]

I'm going to have to agree with this entirely. No matter how long you spend editing the vertices of Link's model, it's not going to be good as the actual model, which we have available. This just seems like laziness and a missed opportunity. Also, Eldiran expressed when the Zero project first started that he wanted this moveset to be almost entirely separate from his original PSA. Instead, this is basically aiming for a new model for an old moveset, then that moveset getting a revamp eventually. If that's what this project is doing, it doesn't even need its own thread; it could just go in Eldiran's thread and be updated in his Zero post.

I think we should wait to see what the vertexed Link looks like, it might actually be pretty close.

But I agree about the moveset. I think it should be almost completely redone and improved.

No worries, guys -- that's the idea. When I say "totally revamp" I mean I'm going to make an entirely new one. If I can get people animate for me (I'm no good at it), I can hopefully get custom animations for almost every action, and even the moves that are technically the 'same' as my old Zero (like Z-Buster and Side+B dash) I plan to make behave differently.

I don't know the exact limitations or potential of vertex editing at the moment, but if it can't make something quite close to Zero, then I don't think I'll settle for it. Using the actual model is still an option, even if it is a huge pain in the butt.

 

[Fen__]

All I have to say is The method bigsharkz is using will end up making him look exactly like zero. I must say that the method is simplerer then regular vertex hacking and ends up looking even better. There is a tutorial on how to do it on kc mm if anyone cares.

The "new" method is still vertex editing. It's just easier to see how it affects the model, and it's impossible to know now how good it will look.

This has actually made me think of something, though. Does anyone actually think a good texture would be able to be done on a model that's so heavily edited? I really think this is just going to end up sub-par and that it'd be better to just invest time in the harder (but better) route.

 

[Beren Zaiga]

Ah, I gotcha. I kinda like them though because they're obvious. I want to make Zero as iconically Zero-like as I can. And, I am the exact same way about X7 and 8 Never played 'em, but wish I could so I could check out the techniques.



Sweet! If you can truly make Link look close to Zero, that would be pretty dang awesome. I have to wonder exactly what new capabilities come from this new vertex hacking technique.

This sounds like quite an endeavor, but you've always been great at continually getting stuff done, so take your time on it.

I have some requests for details on the model though -- preferably, both Master Swords could be transformed into Z-Sabers so that Zero can sheathe his Z-Saber into his back. Also, it would be absolutely perfect if the shield on his back became a Z-Buster -- that would allow me to spawn it very easily, without interfering with the current Shield Boomerang. I can move the polygon to a new bone for you if you want. Alternately, you could just edit the hookshot base -- that would work too.

Anyway, when that gets finished, I'm totally revamping the moveset. Optimally, the current Zero moveset would be the "Megaman Zero" version, and the new version would be the X series version.

No rush though -- I'm just impressed this stuff is possible.

I look at the MMZ model, and have to ask why its a mix of ZX and MMZ.

I also agree with Fen and Falco404. While a vertexed model to look a bit like, or dang close to Zero is nice, nothing beats the real deal.

Also, on the old PSA, I would recommend doing a reinvention to truly make it MMZ. (I.E. make the Master Sword look like the MMZ Z-Saber and The Laser Gun into the Z-Buster)

Though thats just me.

The U-Smash I think needs a rethink. Too boring. A unique Idea, but too boring.

Maybe he takes his Saber and spins it in his hand vertically to deal multiple hits?

 

[Giygue]

you mean like his triple rod charge attack from the first game but used as a helecopter?

 

[Beren Zaiga]

you mean like his triple rod charge attack from the first game but used as a helecopter?

I meant for the MMX version, but yes. That would be a good idea.

Fun Fact for you Giygue: All of MM Zero's weapons, with the exception of his buster, facilitate all of his weapons. The Triple, Chain, and Recoil Rods, as well as the Shield Boomerang are the Z-Saber just being used in different ways.

Click here

and

Click here.

and

Click Here

 

[Fen__]

That's just concept art. Nothing in the actual game suggests that this is the case, so we really don't know. Either way, can we get some actual discussion where everyone would prefer this project to head?

 

[TommoPuppy]

Vertex hacking it just seems to me to be a way to dodge all the work that's supposed to be done with the model itself, which makes me feel unexcited for it. I want it to be authentic, meaning the actual model, not something that's trying to look like Zero. No offense to you BSZ, but, I'd much rather have the model. No one has really finished a character as an imported model and I, personally, would like it if Zero was just finished than leaving it incomplete because people are WHINY about who it replaces.

My word of advice: don't listen to the public when it comes to what character it replaces, go with your schedule for that.

TvC models are nearly unusable though. :/ I honestly like the idea of modifying an existing, more-detailed and most importantly, WORKING model better.

 

[nin10holmes]

TvC models are nearly unusable though. :/ I honestly like the idea of modifying an existing, more-detailed and most importantly, WORKING model better.

I have to agree

 

[Fen__]

TvC models are nearly unusable though. :/ I honestly like the idea of modifying an existing, more-detailed and most importantly, WORKING model better.

How do you figure? To my knowledge, the TvC models don't suffer from anything that other imported models don't.

 

[TommoPuppy]

Well, all the weapons are always equipped (just LOOK at Frank West's model), things like facial expressions can't be ported over yet, nor can the animations (not a huge issue) and the models aren't very high-poly either, or detailed. Combined with the issues other imported models have, and I think it's much more feasible to use what Brawl already gives us.

 

[Fen__]

Well, all the weapons are always equipped (just LOOK at Frank West's model), things like facial expressions can't be ported over yet, nor can the animations (not a huge issue) and the models aren't very high-poly either, or detailed. Combined with the issues other imported models have, and I think it's much more feasible to use what Brawl already gives us.

The all weapons thing is a non-issue considering you can just shrink/grow them for animations; as you said, animations are not really an issue, especially considering that this is going to be a completely new character; the models have a plenty high polygon count and enough detail to definitely be preferable to a vertex-edited Brawl model, which will, by nature, have many graphical issues (stretched textures will be difficult to work with, edges of polygons become much more noticeable, some features won't behave properly due to them actually being other things originally that aren't meant to operate the same as their vertex-edited counterpart (think of BSZ's Mewtwo's tail)); and the other "issues" imported models have are basically renaming and reorganizing a few bones for the most part. A couple of models seem to have stranger problems, but these problems are having fixes continuously discovered as people work on their characters, only making future endeavors easier. Considering the people already involved with this project and the fact that it's high profile will probably attract other very good hackers, I don't think we have anything to worry about.

On the other hand, as I've said, a vertex-edited model will have inherent limitations that can be avoided by an imported model. It'll never look as good as the imported model due to stretched textures, the inevitability of (fairly) jagged edges that should be smooth, et cetera. There's just no reason to go on a slightly easier route when we know it'll inevitably yield significantly less desirable results.

 

[Beren Zaiga]

That's just concept art. Nothing in the actual game suggests that this is the case, so we really don't know.

Nothing in the game denies it either. The concept art shows how the other weapons work, and as the Shield Boomerang and Triple Rod concepts suggest: the Z-Saber facilitates them both, and that the Z-Buster acts as a carrier for the Z-Saber after Zero obtains it. The Z-Saber being all those weapons makes sense because it allows Zero's weaponry to be less cumbersome and be more efficient for combat, all he has to do to switch weapons is choose a different weapon's data, which can be stored on it.

 

[Fen__]

Nothing in the game denies it either. The concept art shows how the other weapons work, and as the Shield Boomerang and Triple Rod concepts suggest: the Z-Saber facilitates them both, and that the Z-Buster acts as a carrier for the Z-Saber after Zero obtains it. The Z-Saber being all those weapons makes sense because it allows Zero's weaponry to be less cumbersome and be more efficient for combat, all he has to do to switch weapons is choose a different weapon's data, which can be stored on it.

"Nothing denies it" isn't a valid argument. By that same argument, I can say there's a single unicorn on the moon that has been cleverly evading being discovered by anyone other than me, who he has spoken to telepathically for reasons he won't disclose to me. Other than that, feel free to have your theory; I'm just saying it's not actually part of the game. Either way, this isn't the place for MMZ weapons technology theories.

 

[Beren Zaiga]

"Nothing denies it" isn't a valid argument. By that same argument, I can say there's a single unicorn on the moon that has been cleverly evading being discovered by anyone other than me, who he has spoken to telepathically for reasons he won't disclose to me. Other than that, feel free to have your theory; I'm just saying it's not actually part of the game. Either way, this isn't the place for MMZ weapons technology theories.

It wasn't originally about MMZ Weapons tech theories you made it about that by saying "Thats just concept art", and proceeding to deny the possibility of what I said. By your same kind of argument, I could that say that "because nothing in Chrono Trigger indicates it, doesn't mean Chrono can't balance his sword by the hilt on the tip of his finger, blade and all". See how this works? "Nothing indicates it" Isn't a valid argument either.

True, its arbitrary, as it is only theory and isn't actually part of the game, but I think its a good theory and can account for his ability to carry multiple weapons on his person at one time with ease.

Plus I thought it would be cool if we could make a PSA where all of Zero's weapons, not counting the Buster (and maybe the Chain Rod) are made from Zero's Saber. The Shield Boomering for example could have the Master Sword/ Z-Saber replacing the Boomerang, and vertexing it as a separate model to have a smaller blade.

 

[RetroAntonio]

How did you...import a 3ds model in?

 

[Fen__]

How did you...import a 3ds model in?

He didn't. It's just there for when/if it becomes a possibility.

 

[TommoPuppy]

The all weapons thing is a non-issue considering you can just shrink/grow them for animations; as you said, animations are not really an issue, especially considering that this is going to be a completely new character; the models have a plenty high polygon count and enough detail to definitely be preferable to a vertex-edited Brawl model, which will, by nature, have many graphical issues (stretched textures will be difficult to work with, edges of polygons become much more noticeable, some features won't behave properly due to them actually being other things originally that aren't meant to operate the same as their vertex-edited counterpart (think of BSZ's Mewtwo's tail)); and the other "issues" imported models have are basically renaming and reorganizing a few bones for the most part. A couple of models seem to have stranger problems, but these problems are having fixes continuously discovered as people work on their characters, only making future endeavors easier. Considering the people already involved with this project and the fact that it's high profile will probably attract other very good hackers, I don't think we have anything to worry about.

On the other hand, as I've said, a vertex-edited model will have inherent limitations that can be avoided by an imported model. It'll never look as good as the imported model due to stretched textures, the inevitability of (fairly) jagged edges that should be smooth, et cetera. There's just no reason to go on a slightly easier route when we know it'll inevitably yield significantly less desirable results.

Woah, slow down. >_> I thought that you couldn't resize or hide the weapons. I've never seen or read anything that suggests otherwise. And if importing a model to make a character is so easy, why hasn't anyone finished one yet? Hm? All the ones I've been following (except for perhaps Lloyd and Wheelie) have major unfixed, or worse, unfixable issues that have hindered development. Furthermore, IF you guys make Zero over Link, then it would honestly be less frustrating just to have a model that works. And besides, we haven't even seen the vertex hack yet, so how can you be so sure it won't look good? There are some pretty good vertex hacks out there. You just have to work within the limits of the model you're hacking, especially when it comes to texturing. When I was making the texture for Tina over (at the time, the current version of) LenSho's Rosalina there were some texture issues with the arms, but they were easily fixed by just being clever about it, and even if the texture issues you may or may not get with a vertex hack of Link are worse, half the time you'd only notice them from up close anyway. Last I checked, Brawl wasn't played up close.

I'm just saying, I think we should wait and see what vertex hacking can do for Zero before we jump the gun and say it's going to suck. Only then can we make an educated decision as to what route Zero will take.

 

[Eldiran]

Also, on the old PSA, I would recommend doing a reinvention to truly make it MMZ. (I.E. make the Master Sword look like the MMZ Z-Saber and The Laser Gun into the Z-Buster)

Though thats just me.

The U-Smash I think needs a rethink. Too boring. A unique Idea, but too boring.

Maybe he takes his Saber and spins it in his hand vertically to deal multiple hits?

I may consider doing more on the old PSA -- at the very least, I do have a few unreleased changes sitting around that I should post soon.

U-smash is something I'm willing to change, but first I need to come up with something for Bair, Uair, aerial Neutral+B, and aerial Down+B. Maybe I could give him a sword spin for Uair...

Fun Fact for you Giygue: All of MM Zero's weapons, with the exception of his buster, facilitate all of his weapons. The Triple, Chain, and Recoil Rods, as well as the Shield Boomerang are the Z-Saber just being used in different ways.

I always thought that was a really cool idea. Unfortunately I didn't do a very good job incorporating it into my Zero PSA's moveset.

---

As for which to use, the model or the vertex, the way I see it, there are drawbacks to both methods. Here's some of the possible problems I can think of for each method:

Vertex:
- vertexing technique may fail on Link
- vertex result may not be convincingly close to Zero
- possible vertex glitches (but I think the vertexing community has generally eliminated these)
- temptation to do a worse job on the PSA/animations
- vertex is not geniunely, authentically Zero
- possibility of bone structure being inadequate
- restricted to only Link as a replacement character
- texture stretching

Model:
- no facial expressions
- all animations, even minor ones, must be made from scratch
- possibility of animation glitching for ThrownX animations based on unusual bone structure
- inability to have feet be on uneven heights (such as when on a slope)
- less control over articles/items (a Z-saber will be permanently affixed to his back, even when he is wielding it)
- more work for me
- possibility of further unknown glitches involving model use
- there may not be solutions to certain known glitches with the model, such as:
--- Zero currently glitches the screen whenever he RunBrakes.
--- tint and lighting effects on Zero last indefinitely (currently I have an inefficient workaround for this)

I don't really have anything conclusive to say. I appreciate the discussion regardless; If anyone thinks of more I'll add 'em to the list.

 

[Fen__]

Why will he always have to have the second saber on his back? Can it not be shrunk via animation?

Also, not sure, but most of the time when polygons stretching across the screen happens, isn't it because it's trying to reference a bone (by index) and getting another one? Kind of like how imported models act without their ThrowN, HipN, TransN, etc. done properly.

 

[Eldiran]

Why will he always have to have the second saber on his back? Can it not be shrunk via animation?

Also, not sure, but most of the time when polygons stretching across the screen happens, isn't it because it's trying to reference a bone (by index) and getting another one? Kind of like how imported models act without their ThrowN, HipN, TransN, etc. done properly.

I think it's something like that, yes. I know that the event that lets feet slope causes the graphical glitch you're describing, which is why it can't be used. It's the same thing with RunBrake, but I've made sure to remove all the events from RunBrake with no success. I'm suspecting the Action for RunBrake has that event in there, which is problematic...

As for the saber... basically, the saber is a polygon attached to his chest bone -- I can't shrink it without removing his torso. Unfortunately, there are also no spare bones that are attached to his chest that I can put the saber polygon on. I would move a spare bone there, but we currently don't have the ability to do that (fortwaffles' bone modder doesn't work as advertised except with BoneIndexes).

 

[Fen__]

Wasn't aware of that model-specific problem. Somewhat disappointing, but I'm still imagining that a model with an extra Z saber would be preferable to a vertex-edited Link (at least for me). Having actually worked with the model, you're definitely the most informed for making the decision, though, especially considering your heavy involvement anyways.

 

[Beren Zaiga]

About the second Z-Saber. Can't you have someone like RandomTBrush edit the UV Points on one of them so that it disappears from existence? Just a thought, cause I remembered how he made that "Masked Man" Model/ Texture Hack.

Also, that lighting effect I saw Zero have on EliteSmashHackers reminds me of the Las Vegas level in TvC. So maybe its an environment texture we can't get to, or a palette problem?

 

[Fen__]

Sorry for the off-topic question, but could you link to this Masked Man? I never saw this and would love to.

 

[Beren Zaiga]

Sorry for the off-topic question, but could you link to this Masked Man? I never saw this and would love to.

Click Here.

The second pic shows RTB's Masked Man.

 

[Eldiran]

About the second Z-Saber. Can't you have someone like RandomTBrush edit the UV Points on one of them so that it disappears from existence? Just a thought, cause I remembered how he made that "Masked Man" Model/ Texture Hack.

Also, that lighting effect I saw Zero have on EliteSmashHackers reminds me of the Las Vegas level in TvC. So maybe its an environment texture we can't get to, or a palette problem?

I can entirely delete the Z-Saber from his back, yes. That'd leave him drawing it from nowhere, but I suppose that's better than drawing it while still leaving it there. I was kind of hoping to have the Z-Saber sticking out from his back in his wait stance, but if I end up with the model I suppose I'd better opt to remove it entirely.

 

[Beren Zaiga]

I can entirely delete the Z-Saber from his back, yes. That'd leave him drawing it from nowhere, but I suppose that's better than drawing it while still leaving it there. I was kind of hoping to have the Z-Saber sticking out from his back in his wait stance, but if I end up with the model I suppose I'd better opt to remove it entirely.

You misunderstand. By changing the UV Points, you can eliminate one saber while keeping the other, but this is assuming this is possible with Zero's textures. If RTB could do what he did with Ness on Zero, then it is very much possible to eliminate one without eliminating both of them.


I was just thinking, wouldn't be possible to put the model over Marth or Ike? We could use one of the bones that connects to the sword, and maybe connect it to the Z-Saber. Hell, replace the Master Sword with the Z-Saber's Polygon if possible, by transferring all it's components into the Brres pack...

...Okay, now I am babbling.

 

[Fen__]

Marth/Ike don't have what's necessary for Zero's moveset.

 

[Beren Zaiga]

Marth/Ike don't have what's necessary for Zero's moveset.

Do you have any better suggestions? Cause if Zero could go over Ike or Marth, and if we could figure out how to get the Z-Saber's Polygon to move around, we could attach the Z-Saber using the bone attached to his foot to his back, then have Zero grab, use then put back the Z-Saber. Link doesn't have the ability to do this since his sword is always attached to his hand. Plus, Link is left-handed.

Ike and Marth possibly have what is needed to move the Z-Saber around, its a matter of rigging the bone to the polygon that is the problem. I assume 3DSMax could do that, since it is capable of bone rigging.

-but its true, Ike and Marth don't have enough articles to accommodate Zero, but without a way to rig anything to the Z-Saber polygon, and detaching it from his chest, we have no means of moving it around in a practical manner.

 

[Eldiran]

You misunderstand. By changing the UV Points, you can eliminate one saber while keeping the other, but this is assuming this is possible with Zero's textures. If RTB could do what he did with Ness on Zero, then it is very much possible to eliminate one without eliminating both of them.

Nah, I gotcha. It's easy to remove it permanently, and I can already make the Z-Saber be in his hand or not (that is, I can switch between the two); I was just hoping to be able to have him able to sheathe and unsheathe the Saber from his back.

Do you have any better suggestions? Cause if Zero could go over Ike or Marth, and if we could figure out how to get the Z-Saber's Polygon to move around, we could attach the Z-Saber using the bone attached to his foot to his back, then have Zero grab, use then put back the Z-Saber. Link doesn't have the ability to do this since his sword is always attached to his hand. Plus, Link is left-handed.

Ike and Marth possibly have what is needed to move the Z-Saber around, its a matter of rigging the bone to the polygon that is the problem. I assume 3DSMax could do that, since it is capable of bone rigging.

-but its true, Ike and Marth don't have enough articles to accommodate Zero, but without a way to rig anything to the Z-Saber polygon, and detaching it from his chest, we have no means of moving it around in a practical manner.

There are a couple of ways for me to handle the Z-Saber.

Using Model over any character:
Move the Z-Saber polygon to an unused bone on his hand, and scale it into and out of existence as needed -- delete all back-mounted Z-Saber polygons

Using Vertexed Link
Vertex Link's Master Swords into Z-Sabers and control where the Z-Saber appears at any given time using the "Model Changer" event -- also, move Z-Saber polygon from left hand to right hand

So, I can use the Z-Saber on any character regardless, though things are slightly better for Vertexed Link.

Ike and Marth would work fine as Zero, except I would have access to fewer articles, and they wouldn't have any projectiles available. (Also the voices would be slightly lacking, but hopefully voice replacement will occur.)

 

[Beren Zaiga]

Nah, I gotcha. It's easy to remove it permanently, and I can already make the Z-Saber be in his hand or not (that is, I can switch between the two); I was just hoping to be able to have him able to sheathe and unsheathe the Saber from his back.



There are a couple of ways for me to handle the Z-Saber.

Using Model over any character:
Move the Z-Saber polygon to an unused bone on his hand, and scale it into and out of existence as needed -- delete all back-mounted Z-Saber polygons

Using Vertexed Link
Vertex Link's Master Swords into Z-Sabers and control where the Z-Saber appears at any given time using the "Model Changer" event -- also, move Z-Saber polygon from left hand to right hand

So, I can use the Z-Saber on any character regardless, though things are slightly better for Vertexed Link.

Ike and Marth would work fine as Zero, except I would have access to fewer articles, and they wouldn't have any projectiles available. (Also the voices would be slightly lacking, but hopefully voice replacement will occur.)

-But then could you not have one of them appear on his back, make it invisible during the attack animation (by which point the one in his hand would appear while his hand is positioned where the Z-Saber is on his back), then have it reappear as soon as he sheathes it, making the one in his hand disappear?

On a side note, an Ike or Marth imported version could be used for a Zero PSA using only X4 related moves (or X5, which makes the Buster unavailable if you choose to start with X), or maybe even a Command Mission Zero by borrowing moves from his Command Arts.

Also, if you were considering using Zero techniques from X7 and 8. Go to the Mega Man Knowledge Base and look up "Zero's weaponry". It shows images and explanations of the techniques.

 

[Fen__]

Considering it'll be difficult enough to finish the original idea, I think we shouldn't worry about straying into ideas like variant movesets for being ported over different characters. Let's just worry about the general "X series Zero" right now.

 

[Eldiran]

-But then could you not have one of them appear on his back, make it invisible during the attack animation (by which point the one in his hand would appear while his hand is positioned where the Z-Saber is on his back), then have it reappear as soon as he sheathes it, making the one in his hand disappear?

Unfortunately if I use the model, the back-mounted Z-Saber polygon cannot be affected in any way during gameplay (because it doesn't have any bone of its own). Unless you meant that UV Point modification can be done on a per-animation basis?

On a side note, an Ike or Marth imported version could be used for a Zero PSA using only X4 related moves (or X5, which makes the Buster unavailable if you choose to start with X), or maybe even a Command Mission Zero by borrowing moves from his Command Arts.

Also, if you were considering using Zero techniques from X7 and 8. Go to the Mega Man Knowledge Base and look up "Zero's weaponry". It shows images and explanations of the techniques.

Oh, very nice. I don't think they had those images last time I looked up this page. I'm definitely going to consider some of thse for use.

It's true, Ike/Marth could make a pretty good swords-only version of Zero. However, I would very much like to have him with a Z-Buster of some sort (since out of the entire X series, only X4, X7, and X8 have him without any kind of buster).

 

[Beren Zaiga]

Unfortunately if I use the model, the back-mounted Z-Saber polygon cannot be affected in any way during gameplay (because it doesn't have any bone of its own). Unless you meant that UV Point modification can be done on a per-animation basis?



Oh, very nice. I don't think they had those images last time I looked up this page. I'm definitely going to consider some of thse for use.

It's true, Ike/Marth could make a pretty good swords-only version of Zero. However, I would very much like to have him with a Z-Buster of some sort (since out of the entire X series, only X4, X7, and X8 have him without any kind of buster).

As I said earlier, can't someone use 3DSMax to rig a bone or two to Link's bone tree, and then onto the Z-Saber polygon, thus possibly making it able to be manipulated, or am I horribly mistaken?

 

[Eldiran]

As I said earlier, can't someone use 3DSMax to rig a bone or two to Link's bone tree, and then onto the Z-Saber polygon, thus possibly making it able to be manipulated, or am I horribly mistaken?

I'm not certain how far model importing/editing has come, but I've been under the impression that we can't affect models outside of BrawlBox or direct hex editing.

If we could in fact add an extra bone to Zero's back, then I could indeed put the Z-Saber on that and have control over it.

 

[Fen__]

Adding a rigged bone cannot be done at this point.

 

[TommoPuppy]

That's not to say that we can't work out how to do it for this project. (although that's wishful thinking)

 

[Holy Lance]

Hey. I just got 3dsmax and was going to try to turn Megaman X into some form of Bass, but I'm struggling to find Megaman X's model in the download. If anyone could point it out to me, that would be great.

 

[Beren Zaiga]

I suggest taking a look at this.

http://www.good-tutorials.com/tutorials/47980/rigging-with-bones-

Shows how to rig bones with 3DSMAX on a pre-existing model (at least I think it does), and was released recently.

@Edlrian or Someone with 3DSMAX: Could the above tutorial shed any light on how to fix any of our problems?

@Topic: Wait a tick, does Link's sheath have a bone on it, or could we maybe take the Master Sword's bone(s) (if it has any, I can't be sure) and move it to Zero's back? Since its already rigged to the tree, we would have to figure out how to rig the Z-Saber handle polygon to the bone with 3DSMAX...

-or I propose replacing the entire Master Sword model with the Z-Saber Handle Polygon then moving it to the back. via the Sword's bones.

 

[Fen__]

I suggest taking a look at this.

http://www.good-tutorials.com/tutorials/47980/rigging-with-bones-

Shows how to rig bones with 3DSMAX on a pre-existing model (at least I think it does), and was released recently.

@Edlrian or Someone with 3DSMAX: Could the above tutorial shed any light on how to fix any of our problems?

@Topic: Wait a tick, does Link's sheath have a bone on it, or could we maybe take the Master Sword's bone(s) (if it has any, I can't be sure) and move it to Zero's back? Since its already rigged to the tree, we would have to figure out how to rig the Z-Saber handle polygon to the bone with 3DSMAX...

-or I propose replacing the entire Master Sword model with the Z-Saber Handle Polygon then moving it to the back. via the Sword's bones.

I'll say it one more time: No rigging of bones can be done right now. Until the model rebuilder gets completed, we won't be able to.

 

[Pegs001]

Ok, so how exactly do I use this? Where do I put the files?