AllyKnight
Banned via Administration
Snake should be like 9th, I mean where's Snake winning nowadays?
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Official SWF Tier List v8
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
Canada?
darthlink777
Smash Apprentice
this
Reckless4Christ
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2013
- Messages
- 557
Yes thank you M2K for Fox @10th!!!
Shadocat
Smash Ace
I ****ING LOVE YOU SO MUCH OH MY ^$*%^(^$ GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!!!!!
John Madden
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
M2k being eSports?!
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
I bet you decided to use Flaoc and MK against me in GFs just so you could say this, you sack of balls
Linkshot
Smash Hero
What's the name of the Samus you fought, M2K? I wanna look up some vids.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
yea if anything snake should be lower than 6th since ally carries it, but i don't think marth (melee) is worse than peach just because armada is better than me in melee (even though I carry marth's tourney results at most tourneys). I just think armada is amazing and peach is really good vs falco which just so happened to be really relevent in today's metagame (also no one camps her enough. That is Peach's weakness since she's slow).
Anyway even if you disagree with my list by a little bit, my top 18 are at least PRETTY CLOSE to what it truely is. I know that much. I tried to make my list as accurate as possible. I've probably played the best player of every character by now, and I thought about it.
Sorry I don't know the name of the samus, but he was really good and hard to gimp/kill. I've never fought any samus that was even CLOSE to his level before. He used a lot of Zair I remember. Also used a lot of up B OOS.
Anyway even if you disagree with my list by a little bit, my top 18 are at least PRETTY CLOSE to what it truely is. I know that much. I tried to make my list as accurate as possible. I've probably played the best player of every character by now, and I thought about it.
Sorry I don't know the name of the samus, but he was really good and hard to gimp/kill. I've never fought any samus that was even CLOSE to his level before. He used a lot of Zair I remember. Also used a lot of up B OOS.
BlueXenon
Smash Lord
I think this is the samus your talking about
Shadocat
Smash Ace
the samus player was YB iirc
edit: Ninjas man
edit: Ninjas man
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Why are you lying to us M2K we don't deserve this M2K we deserve better M2K tell us how you really feel
Edit: M2K
Lukingordex
No Custom Titles Allowed
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2012
- Messages
- 3,063
- Switch FC
- SW-6444-7862-9014
*Sees the new Tier List*
*Notices that Jiggly is under Link again*
*Notices that Jiggly is under Link again*
Reckless4Christ
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2013
- Messages
- 557
I gotta say the grouping's don't make much sense.
Osennecho
Smash Ace
Please reconsider.
CT Chia
Smash Obsessed
Damn ROB is good enough to be on M2K's list? lol
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
At first the only characters he had on his list were like MK ICs Oli Diddy cause he doesn't care about the rest but then he lost to Ocean so he was like **** NOW I HAVE TO INCLUDE ALL THESE CHARACTERS THAT ARE BETTER THAN HIM WHAT ARE THEIR NAMES AGAIN BRB
Mew2King
King of the Mews
Lol yea I realized the ZSS Lucario thing right after i posted it, but even though they're 6 placings apart RANKINGS-WISE, in terms of actual goodness levels (if they were rated by numerical values for example), would be pretty close in that area.
But I actually think it's still close. Like it's really hard to say around that point. I could even see them all being kind of equal. I really struggled around that part, but I think my list is still way better than the "official" one, personally. This is my fault though since I didn't accept being in the BBR since I have OCD and would check it a lot only cuz of my obsessive compulsive disorder I have with things sometimes lol
Even though they could potentially be 6 placings apart, in terms of goodness level, it's actually really close in terms of how good these characters actually are. So even though they are like 6 rankings apart or so, those rankings are really close, where as the top 5 are CLEARLY the top 5, to me. That's why I put a gap after falco. The characters under Falco are much worse, in my opinion.
But I actually think it's still close. Like it's really hard to say around that point. I could even see them all being kind of equal. I really struggled around that part, but I think my list is still way better than the "official" one, personally. This is my fault though since I didn't accept being in the BBR since I have OCD and would check it a lot only cuz of my obsessive compulsive disorder I have with things sometimes lol
Even though they could potentially be 6 placings apart, in terms of goodness level, it's actually really close in terms of how good these characters actually are. So even though they are like 6 rankings apart or so, those rankings are really close, where as the top 5 are CLEARLY the top 5, to me. That's why I put a gap after falco. The characters under Falco are much worse, in my opinion.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
When Lucario gets the sheer mobility of ZSS, we'll talk.
ZSS is obviously better than Lucario because she has true combos and a 1 frame Jab therefore she is better than everyone like MK and Lucario and every other character because nobody else has true combos (CGs and followups out of throws don't count)/
Snake would be mid tier already if it weren't for that damn 'Axis'.
Somebody make him switch to mk already.
Somebody make him switch to mk already.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Alright I hear you. I've always thought ZSS and Lucario were really close as well, just not with 5 chars in between XD
I also agree with the whole Samus being underrated thing, though for me that was influenced by Quik
Player-1
Smash Legend
This is relevant even tho this is melee, but you ******* need to raise luigi more:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CwDngBhmQXY
also lucario is bad. Definitely worse than DDD and TL. Trela is just that ****ing amazing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CwDngBhmQXY
also lucario is bad. Definitely worse than DDD and TL. Trela is just that ****ing amazing
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
Done with your mentality snake mains 
ToonLink better than lucario?
Darn you guys for thinking toonlink is good
ToonLink better than lucario?
Darn you guys for thinking toonlink is good
Teh Future
Smash Master
SS: Meta Knight
S: Ice Climbers
C-: R.O.B., Peach
They aren't even groups if you put 1 character in them lol. I think next time you guys should use even MORE formatting like metaknight is at least 15 spaces above from ICs but ICs are only around 2 from Olimar. Lets make it even more complicated just because!
S: Ice Climbers
C-: R.O.B., Peach
They aren't even groups if you put 1 character in them lol. I think next time you guys should use even MORE formatting like metaknight is at least 15 spaces above from ICs but ICs are only around 2 from Olimar. Lets make it even more complicated just because!
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Lucario's moves in general are fundamentally better than Dedede's, imo. Add in Lucario's superior momentum to that. Toon Link, however, I may agree with you there, not only because of better speed and disjoint, but because of better projectile pressure.
Toon Link, on the other hand, lacks a reliable dAir, dSmash, and fSmash, and his ground normals are much laggier than Lucario's, and I think they cover less total distance.
Toon Link, on the other hand, lacks a reliable dAir, dSmash, and fSmash, and his ground normals are much laggier than Lucario's, and I think they cover less total distance.
Player-1
Smash Legend
Lucario's moves might fundamentally be better than DDD's if he had anything faster than frame 5 from neutral position. All DDD has to do is spotdodge, grab, and bair in neutral
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
Projectile pressure is a joke. Get in that ass and beat him up because he doesn't have any good buttons to press or a grab
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Dedede also has to convince the opponent to approach him, something he's not stellar at.
I don't know what it is about the Tier List that people don't like. Call me new, but I'm really into Brawl so can someone point out, with a definitive argument, what placings are bad?
MetaKnight is SS Tier. I trust nobody has any objections.
IC in S Tier. Personally, I saw this coming. Vinnie and 9B have always been consistent threats, and the only players to be able to REALLY beat good IC players are the REALLY good MKs like Otori, M2K, and Anti.
Olimar and Diddy dropped 1 due to ICs.
Marth rose two places. I main Marth, so I'm a bit biased, but Marth has been doing really well. Mikeneko and Mr. R got fifth and seventh at APEX 2013 respectively, the two of them beating players like Ally, Zero, ADHD, and ESAM. Though I don't exactly have a professional perspective on Marth's metagame and capabilities, I don't see it surprising at all.
Snake and Falco respectively went down two. Neither are performing very well at all. I can see Pikachu remaining same, and I agree with all the others that ZSS should have risen higher, but from C to B is fine. It all remains the same until mid-tier.
The one thing I actually don't like are the divisions into + and - regions. A+ and A- should be condensed. So should the C+, C, and C- tiers. I also expected a much more major shift of the top tiers, but it is fine, really. Update as necessary.
MetaKnight is SS Tier. I trust nobody has any objections.
IC in S Tier. Personally, I saw this coming. Vinnie and 9B have always been consistent threats, and the only players to be able to REALLY beat good IC players are the REALLY good MKs like Otori, M2K, and Anti.
Olimar and Diddy dropped 1 due to ICs.
Marth rose two places. I main Marth, so I'm a bit biased, but Marth has been doing really well. Mikeneko and Mr. R got fifth and seventh at APEX 2013 respectively, the two of them beating players like Ally, Zero, ADHD, and ESAM. Though I don't exactly have a professional perspective on Marth's metagame and capabilities, I don't see it surprising at all.
Snake and Falco respectively went down two. Neither are performing very well at all. I can see Pikachu remaining same, and I agree with all the others that ZSS should have risen higher, but from C to B is fine. It all remains the same until mid-tier.
The one thing I actually don't like are the divisions into + and - regions. A+ and A- should be condensed. So should the C+, C, and C- tiers. I also expected a much more major shift of the top tiers, but it is fine, really. Update as necessary.
What people don't like is not having their posts dramatically read
CT Chia
Smash Obsessed
This was entertaining, but it needs more Chibo.
...had I posted.
Should have a sequel.
Fear not, I'm sure a sequel will surface at some point. I'm like the herpes of this thread.
I didn't get my post read, but there was brief moment where Infinite said he ****ing hates me.What people don't like is not having their posts dramatically read
Good times, man.
Good times.
Osennecho
Smash Ace
You are very new to brawl. M2K's tier list is IMO a better tier list than this thread. Go back one or two pages in this thread and you can find it. Marth is the biggest flaw in the list currently aside from arguably how characters are grouped (except for lower level characters like Samus....YB scares me). Also Falco does do well. It's just that the only Falco to do well in the USA is DEHF. Masha and SLS (who according to DEHF are the top 2) reside in Japan. Mikehaze is the best Marth in the USA and no offense to him, but he can't rival the absolute top players. Ally and DEHF can. I main Marth and can't even fathom how he is at 5th. Based upon some of what you said I'd like to ask you, did you know about RCO lag (which I admit effects Falco also). I'd keep going but as you said, you are new to brawl.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
Marth's placing isn't a flaw
his design is a flaw (okay he's still better than around 75% of the characters but still you know what I mean lol).
he gets juggled so easily and gets stuck at the ledge so easily which builds up ledge grabs fast and you can wall him out easily
but maybe I'm just biased from meta knight's perspective. Still i see mikeneko beat rain otori zero in sets and I played him in japan and he's INSANELY GOOD. he 2 stocked me like 3 times in a row once. But I also 3 stocked him 2-3 times. We go back and forth like crazy, but I've still won around 60% of the games and I feel like he's playing his character perfectly to his max potential a lot of the time too yet I just feel marth's limitations more than other players do. It makes me feel like the character is limited, and sometimes can just be 3 stocked cuz of lack of options. I also did better and better as I played him more, because I was figuring out the MU more the more I played, where I have options as MK that he doesn't have as Marth.
Try to use Metaknight's ground up B when Marth is at the ledge for example. It really shuts down everything. It beats ledge hop fair, ledge jump fair, neutralizes with Counter, and only really loses to a hard read up B cuz that's invincible but that's really risky for marth to do also.
Try to get marth above you, and just fall with him. After he air dodges, or fairs, or misses any retaliation, you can just get a free hit. And the longer you fall with him, the more you can either mix up doing a random attack at ANY point in time (like random shuttle loop), with just falling for him waiting for him to do ANYTHING and react to the lag afterwords and you get a free hit.
The great thing with MK is that once marth misses a Fair or air dodge on you (by falling under him), your Dair will often instant-KO his horrible recovery as you edge hog him after. Even if you don't get the edge hog gimp, you still get an edge hog + reverse Nair (12 or 19%) anyway.
Try to stand at the edge shielding as a marth below you tries to recover, then do a last-second edge hog just before you think marth will up B. There's a small chance you'll take a few % by guessing wrong, but an even higher chance that you'll get either an edge hog to instant KO, or edge hog to be able to reverse Nair marth off the other side of the stage. not to mention random Rain/Zero/Otori-style drop down and up B to regrab the ledge as mixups.
Those are 3 flaws right off the bat that players don't use enough.
I don't just put characters in a list without a reason. I think Marth has HUGE flaws in Brawl. Marth is much better in Melee to me. They're both borderline between top and high tier in each game, but I feel Marth is more viable to win nationals in melee than in brawl by far also.
It is possible I'm wrong. maybe Marth is amazing. I just don't feel he's better than the characters above him. But it's still REALLY CLOSE. As I said numbers 6 through 13 or so can be like really close. That's my rankings opinion but if it was ordered numerically, it would be really close after the top 5 ends. Top 5 are clearly above the rest imo.
his design is a flaw (okay he's still better than around 75% of the characters but still you know what I mean lol).
he gets juggled so easily and gets stuck at the ledge so easily which builds up ledge grabs fast and you can wall him out easily
but maybe I'm just biased from meta knight's perspective. Still i see mikeneko beat rain otori zero in sets and I played him in japan and he's INSANELY GOOD. he 2 stocked me like 3 times in a row once. But I also 3 stocked him 2-3 times. We go back and forth like crazy, but I've still won around 60% of the games and I feel like he's playing his character perfectly to his max potential a lot of the time too yet I just feel marth's limitations more than other players do. It makes me feel like the character is limited, and sometimes can just be 3 stocked cuz of lack of options. I also did better and better as I played him more, because I was figuring out the MU more the more I played, where I have options as MK that he doesn't have as Marth.
Try to use Metaknight's ground up B when Marth is at the ledge for example. It really shuts down everything. It beats ledge hop fair, ledge jump fair, neutralizes with Counter, and only really loses to a hard read up B cuz that's invincible but that's really risky for marth to do also.
Try to get marth above you, and just fall with him. After he air dodges, or fairs, or misses any retaliation, you can just get a free hit. And the longer you fall with him, the more you can either mix up doing a random attack at ANY point in time (like random shuttle loop), with just falling for him waiting for him to do ANYTHING and react to the lag afterwords and you get a free hit.
The great thing with MK is that once marth misses a Fair or air dodge on you (by falling under him), your Dair will often instant-KO his horrible recovery as you edge hog him after. Even if you don't get the edge hog gimp, you still get an edge hog + reverse Nair (12 or 19%) anyway.
Try to stand at the edge shielding as a marth below you tries to recover, then do a last-second edge hog just before you think marth will up B. There's a small chance you'll take a few % by guessing wrong, but an even higher chance that you'll get either an edge hog to instant KO, or edge hog to be able to reverse Nair marth off the other side of the stage. not to mention random Rain/Zero/Otori-style drop down and up B to regrab the ledge as mixups.
Those are 3 flaws right off the bat that players don't use enough.
I don't just put characters in a list without a reason. I think Marth has HUGE flaws in Brawl. Marth is much better in Melee to me. They're both borderline between top and high tier in each game, but I feel Marth is more viable to win nationals in melee than in brawl by far also.
It is possible I'm wrong. maybe Marth is amazing. I just don't feel he's better than the characters above him. But it's still REALLY CLOSE. As I said numbers 6 through 13 or so can be like really close. That's my rankings opinion but if it was ordered numerically, it would be really close after the top 5 ends. Top 5 are clearly above the rest imo.
This post maddened me