infiniteV115
Smash Hero
I think ZSS' is worse
-
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Official SWF Tier List v8
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
BlueXenon
Smash Lord
Alright I'm done with people putting snake below top 5/6. I will be the hero snake players need
Pls go to my website www.dekillsage.com and donate to me so that I may travel the world and get it shakin with everyone
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
He was voted higher.
Explained.
Explained.
Osennecho
Smash Ace
This is actually the most of agreed with a tier list for a long time. Ice climbers deserve their own spot on the list.
For anyone arguing about marth being too high, or zss not being high enough, I do believe this list takes more than apex into account. Otherwise snake should be moved to like, mid-high tier.
I like most of the positions. Although I think d3 and lucario just really suffer from a lack of representation. A lot more potential for both.
And snake will keep moving down. He gets worse with every update.
For anyone arguing about marth being too high, or zss not being high enough, I do believe this list takes more than apex into account. Otherwise snake should be moved to like, mid-high tier.
I like most of the positions. Although I think d3 and lucario just really suffer from a lack of representation. A lot more potential for both.
And snake will keep moving down. He gets worse with every update.
B0NK
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,282
I will just concede and say that my statement "Solo ICs haven't gotten top 8 at a national/international tournament ever." was incorrect.
SKTAR and SRT were nationals, I would just like to point out that both those tournaments used only 6 stages for their stagelist.
And upon further research, I discovered Lain's MK and D3, while used in Apex 2009 (less so in 2010), did not give him wins that allowed him to advance in the bracket. (As you said). His wins can be credited to the fact that he won game 1 in every set that he won. (This also means just as strong consistant play on sets that went to game 3).
When you ask me if I "would say Apex is the only National next," I was saddened when I realized that there really aren't many National series left. There are no more Critical Hits, COTs, GENESIS, Pound, or MLGs. What we have left is MK-Banned WHOBOs, Impulse, SKTAR, SRT, and Apex.
Since the tier list is supposed to be based off of Apex ruleset, that only leaves Apex and Impulse 2013. This means that Apex may very well soon be the only national series left in which we can base tier list opinions on.
tl;dr, I concede that ICs have indeed placed Top 8 at nationals in the past, though only Apex 2009 and Apex 2010 are the only tournaments with stage list consisting of more than 6 stages and I would not call those two tournaments recent results.
I will now get all my research together and begin typing up why ICs are not the 2nd best character in the game. Once completed, I will post it here.
Regardless I hope everyone realizes the main points of my arguments in the last tier list thread was that MK is indeed ban-worthy and the argument Vinnie is talking about was a part of my response to a different argument.
Brawlman1000
Smash Ace
.....uh huh...................
Hat N' Clogs
John Tavares is a Leaf
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- Southern tier NY state
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This is a great list. I really like the voting system used this time around. Well done BBR.
Cassio
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2011
- Messages
- 3,185
For Marth I cant be sure, but my guess is bc of Apex those who mightve been more critical of Marth and lowered him decided to give him the benefit of the doubt and leave him around where he was, while those who have been big advocates used it as reasoning to move him even higher from his original placement. So the net gain ended up being about +2.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
This list is ****. I think I'm one of the few BBR members who put 
around 8th looool.
around 8th looool.
oh HAH
All of this. Why the hell is King D3 in Mid tier. He can infinite a good amount of the people in here or has such a good matchup that it is unnecessary. If any mid-tier tournaments are done anymore, I can guarantee that King D3 is going to be on top on at least half of them. Also, I like how it is now low-mid tier instead of upper low. Put Luigi in low already. He kinda deserves it at this point for how little Luigi has done in the past 30,000 years in the game.
This, IC's are really good. Yes, they are 2nd. Are they so good that they are alone and that much better than 3rd, NO.
Lolthis
DeKillSage for best constructive posts of the thread.
FredFuchs
Smash Apprentice
on another note, it is nice to see that 
didn't go down like how he has been since V1. my only gripe is that putting in mid tier doesn't feel right, even if it is "upper" mid tier.
didn't go down like how he has been since V1. my only gripe is that putting in mid tier doesn't feel right, even if it is "upper" mid tier.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Yeah, putting D3 in Mid Tier also single handedly destroys any opportunities to run Mid Tier tournaments, which is hella dumb. They shouldve just expanded High Tier to cover Luc/D3/Tink as well.
I've never seen so many people complain about a free service that they're not entitled to since.... well the the last tier list..
Why is everyone raging at ICs getting their own tier? What difference does it make? The only thing the tier list affects is who is legal in mid and low tier tourneys.
Even if ICs getting their own tier isn't warranted, I don't understand what negative consequences this will have.
Why is everyone raging at ICs getting their own tier? What difference does it make? The only thing the tier list affects is who is legal in mid and low tier tourneys.
Even if ICs getting their own tier isn't warranted, I don't understand what negative consequences this will have.
Yo.
I'm all for there being a Upper high tier and Lower high tier.
I'm all for there being a Upper high tier and Lower high tier.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
I suggest they separate the tiers more like this:
TOP TIER
S:
A+:
A-:
HIGH TIER
B+:
B-:
UPPER MID TIER
C+:
C-:
MID TIER
D+:
D-:
LOWER MID TIER
E:
LOW TIER
F+:
F-:
S:
A+:
A-:
HIGH TIER
B+:
B-:
UPPER MID TIER
C+:
C-:
MID TIER
D+:
D-:
LOWER MID TIER
E:
LOW TIER
F+:
F-:
FredFuchs
Smash Apprentice
high tier doesn't need any heirarchies within it. it's fine by itself
Osennecho
Smash Ace
Just put Hyrule tier back if you are doing that lol.I suggest they separate the tiers more like this:
TOP TIER
S:
A+:
A-:
HIGH TIER
B+:
B-:
UPPER MID TIER
C+:
C-:
MID TIER
D+:
D-:
LOWER MID TIER
E:
LOW TIER
F+:
F-:
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Well imo Pika/ZSS should be top tier, but otherwise yes, Id say Wario is only slightly ahead of Luc/D3/Tink and that theres a nice gap after Tink before Wolf. So yes.
@Osennecho: I went by the excel file, and that was the best cutoff point. Just imagine it as if Falcon joined the tier, gaining the Triforce of Justice. :3c
@Osennecho: I went by the excel file, and that was the best cutoff point. Just imagine it as if Falcon joined the tier, gaining the Triforce of Justice. :3c
Cassio- Ok even supposing that's wrong, realistically what consequence does that have?
The only thing I can think of are new players who want to know how viable certain characters are. It's not as if it's specific to the point that Zelda is fractionally more viable than Ganondorf. Characters constantly get results that the tier list suggests they shouldn't anyway.
The only thing I can think of are new players who want to know how viable certain characters are. It's not as if it's specific to the point that Zelda is fractionally more viable than Ganondorf. Characters constantly get results that the tier list suggests they shouldn't anyway.
darthlink777
Smash Apprentice
I'd wager that the BBR has a vendetta against Zelda characters
Mew2King
King of the Mews
Zero Suit Samus, Pikachu, and Wario are all better than marth imo. Or at least tied at worst.
I agree with top 4 although ICs and MK are pretty comparable, and Olimar/Diddy are pretty comparable, then they are clearly top 4
falco's 5th.
Salem thinks ZSS is like 6th in the game or so, Esam thinks Pikachu is top tier, for whatever that's worth to you. I also think Pikachu and snake are comparable, overall. And wario is about same as pikachu/snake.
Lucario is high tier, and imo barely worse than ZSS
GW is better than he is on this list too.
I didn't vote on this cuz I requested to not be in the BBR although maybe I will reconsider.
I agree with top 4 although ICs and MK are pretty comparable, and Olimar/Diddy are pretty comparable, then they are clearly top 4
falco's 5th.
Salem thinks ZSS is like 6th in the game or so, Esam thinks Pikachu is top tier, for whatever that's worth to you. I also think Pikachu and snake are comparable, overall. And wario is about same as pikachu/snake.
Lucario is high tier, and imo barely worse than ZSS
GW is better than he is on this list too.
I didn't vote on this cuz I requested to not be in the BBR although maybe I will reconsider.
darthlink777
Smash Apprentice
Tsk tsk. There's more to the game than top tier. I can't wait until someone wrecks top with a mid or lower character.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYlTNIBb-NQhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYlTNIBb-NQOfficial BBR Tier List: A Dramatic Reading
I threw this video together just for you guys. Enjoy.
I threw this video together just for you guys. Enjoy.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
^ thisssssssssssss
darthlink777
Smash Apprentice
I dunno. I'd say Marth has a lot of untapped spacing game potential. With the right spacing, he can out reach and out-prioritize even MK. Zero-Suit has the reach and combo-bility to deal with it, just as Wario can combat with his superior spacing, but i doubt Pikachu can outclass him.
Wow I only showed up once wtf
Your posts are still too relevant/smart/well-structured.
Yo.
So how's it feel to make this thread peak so soon?
It feels delicious
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2008
- Messages
- 10,050
If I'm not mistaken, the voting system used is exactly the same thing that was used to create the first few tier lists for Brawl. The process is extremely similar to what everyone just had the opportunity to experience: A place to discuss the tier list then a place to add in your vote. Although this time around we added outsider votes to the equation, the voting system is still the same as it has been since 2008. I don't understand why people are upset about it now. More votes create a better average, so it was probably a good idea to include the public vote as well.
Also, the votes are based on discussion. We didn't have the convenience of using money/usage data and match-up chart weighting this time around, but we didn't pick characters out of a hat or anything. We don't need pages of data injected directly into the tier list just to be sure that Metaknight is the best character. Everybody has a good enough understanding of the metagame to be able to make that decision on their own, and if there are any conflicting decisions, then discussion sparks.
The tier list is always a bit upsetting because each person has their own beliefs and they represent that with a single vote. However, every other vote is just a wrench thrown at your tier list, so when participating, it's always going to go from good (exactly as you believe) to worse (your opinion + 30~ others mixed together). Also, since it's all vote based, placings usually just fall to where they're averaged and you just gotta work with what you got. For example I think somebody was asking why ZSS was over Wario or something, and the reason is simply because that's the way the votes were averaged. Even if we had discussion as to why ZSS should/shouldn't be above Wario, we can't directly transcribe it to the tier list. It would go against votes, which is the best way to equally weigh everybody's opinions. The discussion would just serve as an aid to making your list as accurate as possible. The same thing happens with groupings. When the numbers are averaged, there are gaps all over the place that you have to use your best gut feeling to divide. I don't particularly agree that ICs should be on their own tier (I actually think they should be put before Snake), but you just gotta work with what you got. If ICs is shown to be a decisive 2nd, you can't go against that, you gotta run with it.
I'm honestly more offended that on my screen, the tier list is showing a PT icon as #1 and MK's icon where Fox is supposed to go than the fact that ICs has their own tier.
Also, the votes are based on discussion. We didn't have the convenience of using money/usage data and match-up chart weighting this time around, but we didn't pick characters out of a hat or anything. We don't need pages of data injected directly into the tier list just to be sure that Metaknight is the best character. Everybody has a good enough understanding of the metagame to be able to make that decision on their own, and if there are any conflicting decisions, then discussion sparks.
The tier list is always a bit upsetting because each person has their own beliefs and they represent that with a single vote. However, every other vote is just a wrench thrown at your tier list, so when participating, it's always going to go from good (exactly as you believe) to worse (your opinion + 30~ others mixed together). Also, since it's all vote based, placings usually just fall to where they're averaged and you just gotta work with what you got. For example I think somebody was asking why ZSS was over Wario or something, and the reason is simply because that's the way the votes were averaged. Even if we had discussion as to why ZSS should/shouldn't be above Wario, we can't directly transcribe it to the tier list. It would go against votes, which is the best way to equally weigh everybody's opinions. The discussion would just serve as an aid to making your list as accurate as possible. The same thing happens with groupings. When the numbers are averaged, there are gaps all over the place that you have to use your best gut feeling to divide. I don't particularly agree that ICs should be on their own tier (I actually think they should be put before Snake), but you just gotta work with what you got. If ICs is shown to be a decisive 2nd, you can't go against that, you gotta run with it.
I'm honestly more offended that on my screen, the tier list is showing a PT icon as #1 and MK's icon where Fox is supposed to go than the fact that ICs has their own tier.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
edit - ignore
Mew2King
King of the Mews
I'll just post my opinion
M2K's tier list opinion:
1st-2nd: Metaknight / Ice Climbers
3rd-4th: Olimar / Diddy
5th: Falco
> (these are clearly the top 5 characters, imo)
6th-7th: Snake / ZSS
8th-9th - Pikachu / Wario (yeah I think these 4 chars can be very close)
10th - Fox https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAM2LJwvmGE if anything Fox is higher than this at least vs MK; he's just really bad vs Pikachu and ICs chain grabs.
11th - Marth (yeah I think he is overrated, and my credentials are playing every top marth in either tourney or friendlies or crews , and bunch of friendlies vs each, never lost a set or never lost majority of friendlies to any marth, and I think people don't exploit him as well as he can be).
http://smashboards.com/threads/official-swf-tier-list-v8.335959/page-6#post-15473734
12th - Pit (USA is REALLY BAD with this character)
13th - Lucario
14th - GW
15th - Wolf / Toon Link / Sheik (very underrated character imo)
17th - DDD (everyone outcamps him; this is a huge flaw imo)
18th - Rob
Rest are pretty bad and I don't know the order, but Samus is underrated (the best samus in japan is REALLY good and took 3/10 games off my MK; and i BEAT their top players most of the time outside of earth and 9b and otori and me are 1-1 in sets and didn't play friendlies at srt but i won them at apex, Samus lives a LOT and her Zair is really really really safe if you're patient with it. Peach is also overrated).
Btw guys , if you wanna make games with me, or just follow me in the future for anything i do (mostly smash or making games), send me a message on my fanpage that I'll be using a lot more soon. (see my sig).
edit:lol okay my sig didn't show, but please go to all these links and Subscribe/etc to them all: https://www.facebook.com/mewtwoking/info
M2K's tier list opinion:
1st-2nd: Metaknight / Ice Climbers
3rd-4th: Olimar / Diddy
5th: Falco
> (these are clearly the top 5 characters, imo)
6th-7th: Snake / ZSS
8th-9th - Pikachu / Wario (yeah I think these 4 chars can be very close)
10th - Fox https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAM2LJwvmGE if anything Fox is higher than this at least vs MK; he's just really bad vs Pikachu and ICs chain grabs.
11th - Marth (yeah I think he is overrated, and my credentials are playing every top marth in either tourney or friendlies or crews , and bunch of friendlies vs each, never lost a set or never lost majority of friendlies to any marth, and I think people don't exploit him as well as he can be).
http://smashboards.com/threads/official-swf-tier-list-v8.335959/page-6#post-15473734
12th - Pit (USA is REALLY BAD with this character)
13th - Lucario
14th - GW
15th - Wolf / Toon Link / Sheik (very underrated character imo)
17th - DDD (everyone outcamps him; this is a huge flaw imo)
18th - Rob
Rest are pretty bad and I don't know the order, but Samus is underrated (the best samus in japan is REALLY good and took 3/10 games off my MK; and i BEAT their top players most of the time outside of earth and 9b and otori and me are 1-1 in sets and didn't play friendlies at srt but i won them at apex, Samus lives a LOT and her Zair is really really really safe if you're patient with it. Peach is also overrated).
Btw guys , if you wanna make games with me, or just follow me in the future for anything i do (mostly smash or making games), send me a message on my fanpage that I'll be using a lot more soon. (see my sig).
edit:lol okay my sig didn't show, but please go to all these links and Subscribe/etc to them all: https://www.facebook.com/mewtwoking/info
