Official SWF Tier List v8

[Dekillsage]

Should really try looking at toonlinks frame data
then proceed to power shielding every projectile. The character is mediocre with good representation, that's all.

 

[Luco]

Should really try looking at toonlinks frame data
then proceed to power shielding every projectile. The character is mediocre with good representation, that's all.

K i'm just gonna go ahead and PS every one of snake's 'nades and show the world how bad he really is.

Owait. :3

Anyway, good rep usually means the character has some potential. >_>

This is all my opinion, but... like... eh?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I get the PS argument for slow projectiles, but it doesn't remove the mix-up pressure, Toon Link can create with that either needing to get a hit or play keep away.

 

[Dre89]

I don't even think powershielding isn't Tink's biggest problem. He can still effectively pressure and punish shields and camp powershielders.

What he has to worry about more is people catching his jumps by jumping with him. He also has to worry about landing against characters quick across the ground.

 

[MX778]

Should really try looking at toonlinks frame data
then proceed to power shielding every projectile. The character is mediocre with good representation, that's all.

That is what the tier list is all about, is it not? Outside of matchups, there's nothing that holds any solid tier list other than tournament representation and what is seen on screen at those given events. Just like in the past year of so, people thought Pikachu went even with Meta Knight mainly because ESAM played well against M2K. When M2K 2-3 stocks him, all of a sudden the story's changed again and it's back to Meta Knight's favor. Because it's all based on the demonstration of what the PLAYER can do with the character and not the other way around. It's the way that it's always been. I guarantee if someone beat Vinnie's with , people will start looking at a whole lot differently.

No matter how "bad" you think Toon Link is, he's not as bad as . My main is mediocre in comparison, but that didn't stop me from winning a tourney going 98% . At least can actually power shield and have options Oos. It all comes down to how well you utilize the potential of the character.

tl;dr No Johns, get good with the character and stop relying so much on frame data.

 

[Jabejazz]

I like your furry duck. It's so cute. x)

furry duck

swei pls

there's nothing that holds any solid tier list other than tournament representation and what is seen on screen at those given events.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Personally I believe DDD should not be mid tier either. Please take my point on this. What i'm saying is that for now, the BBR has taken a lot of criticism in regards to the new tier list and may not receive so kindly to being screamed at to change everything.

I do not recall ever feeling stressed when people screamed at the BBR.

It's the way that it's always been. I.

Or the Brawl Community hasn't realized that the hype train should be ignored.
You know...something that should have been learned in a year instead of...never?

 

[MX778]

swei pls

I'm not gonna' lie, this response was kind of funny. lol
But what I'm saying is basically what Armada was getting at a few pages back. People are so focused on the results of the characters that they don't really take the qualities of the character that make them good/bad into consideration. So it's basically it translates to....

If you don't see this character in tourney: They're bad
If said character winds up winning 1st at a tourney: That character all the sudden is godlike. Then and ONLY then do people see the potential in the character. Still though, going mainly by results to judge a character's potential is booty.

I do not recall ever feeling stressed when people screamed at the BBR.



Or the Brawl Community hasn't realized that the hype train should be ignored.
You know...something that should have been learned in a year instead of...never?

Elaborate pl0x

 

[Jabejazz]

I'm not gonna' lie, this response was kind of funny. lol

I searched "laughing girls eating salad" on Google. The result is astonishing.

But what I'm saying is basically what Armada was getting at a few pages back. People are so focused on the results of the characters that they don't really take the qualities of the character that make them good/bad into consideration.

It's true. Still, the tier lists aren't entirely based off tournament results. The reason why MK is #1 is because of his amazing tool set, which in turn gives him great tournament results.
Obviously having a great representaion helps in showing how good a character can be (see Olimar). But each character is still limited by his tools and by numbers. And that remains a major factor in establishing a tier list.

I can agree more people should look beyond the tournament result and wonder why X won and why Y lost.

 

[Luco]

I do not recall ever feeling stressed when people screamed at the BBR.

I'm sorry...

what?

That makes no sense in relation to what I said...

...

...

=/

@Jabe: That's actually a really interesting thing to say - I agree in many respects.

 

[Dekillsage]

K i'm just gonna go ahead and PS every one of snake's 'nades and show the world how bad he really is.

Owait. :3

Anyway, good rep usually means the character has some potential. >_>

This is all my opinion, but... like... eh?

Sonic and Yoshi have both had a lot of good representation. Good players, bad character. Toon Link is the same.

@Snake
If you can count the timer on both grenades then you'd still only end up being able to powershield one at some point. There are other ways to avoid grenades though, such as spotdodging the explosion or spotdodging a hard tossed grenade.

I get the PS argument for slow projectiles, but it doesn't remove the mix-up pressure, Toon Link can create with that either needing to get a hit or play keep away.

What mix up pressure? Toon Link is slow.

I don't even think powershielding isn't Tink's biggest problem. He can still effectively pressure and punish shields and camp powershielders.

What he has to worry about more is people catching his jumps by jumping with him. He also has to worry about landing against characters quick across the ground.

He doesn't really effectively pressure anyone's shield when the projectiles get powershielded and he has to throw them all again which takes forever. Pulling a bomb takes a long time, throwing a boomerang takes a long time, shooting an arrow is only used when he does like zair-> arrow shot for example, but arrow is always powershielded. Characters like Marth can just do fair and it'll beat boomerang, boomerang pull, bomb pull, bomb toss and jump back.

I'm not gonna' lie, this response was kind of funny. lol
But what I'm saying is basically what Armada was getting at a few pages back. People are so focused on the results of the characters that they don't really take the qualities of the character that make them good/bad into consideration. So it's basically it translates to....

If you don't see this character in tourney: They're bad
If said character winds up winning 1st at a tourney: That character all the sudden is godlike. Then and ONLY then do people see the potential in the character. Still though, going mainly by results to judge a character's potential is booty.

Okay. Well I'm saying toonlink sucks because his camp game is a joke, his pressure game is mediocre, his frame data shows that he's SLOW, he's easy to edgeguard, if he blocks he can't do anything(Nair oos isn't fast. It's bad), and every single toonlink player adopted the jump back pull an item throw item strategy to compensate.

You look at toonlinks strengths to realize that some of them aren't even there, while others like his projectile game aren't good vs anyone except yoshi and the big bodies. They're just okay. He is the Middest of Mid Tier, not the top of the current Mid Tier

 

[RaptorTEC]

Yoshi might be bad but he's still better than Snake.

 

[Shaya]

I go out of my way to power shield everyone of both grenades and the grenade explosions, 100% of the time. Get better.

 

[infiniteV115]

I go out of my way to power shield everyone of both grenades and the grenade explosions, 100% of the time. Get better.

arent u bad tho

 

[Shaya]

Very bad.
I just am the best at hard rush down with the power of power shields against bad players.

Add a smashville platform and I'm pretty sure I travel faster than the human eye can adjust.

That's why I love Fox though. Holy moly 8 frame dash shield and being fox and power shielding?
Like
oh man.

 

[Espy Rose]

Sonic has good representation?
What, is this 2010?

 

[Dekillsage]

Had. Sonic is dead now rip

 

[Jabejazz]

RIP in peace Sanic.

You went fast.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Elaborate pl0x

tl;dr version: People focus far too much on the now. I.e.people believing Snake was WOMG AMAZING upon initial vews of his broken hit box.
Then there was the MK matchup hype train where every single character and their mother was believed to have an even matchup at one poit or another based off a few wins.

@luco: You said the BBR doesn't take too kindly to criticism. I was not bother by said criticism back when I was in the BBR. *shrug*
They have tough skins.
Just don't say stupid things.

 

[Dre89]

He doesn't really effectively pressure anyone's shield when the projectiles get powershielded and he has to throw them all again which takes forever. Pulling a bomb takes a long time, throwing a boomerang takes a long time, shooting an arrow is only used when he does like zair-> arrow shot for example, but arrow is always powershielded. Characters like Marth can just do fair and it'll beat boomerang, boomerang pull, bomb pull, bomb toss and jump back.

I'm not saying TL is amazing, but I think you're underselling what he can do. Powershielding obviously helps a lot against him, but it would only completely shut down his camp game if he only had one projectile on the screen at a time, or aimed all of his projectiles directly at his opponent. Good Tinks are going to be trying to control space, which is why you see them z dropping and upthrowing bombs so often. I'm sure TL can punish someone for being forced to powershield in specific situations.

They also force you to approach, which makes you more punishable.

I'm sure Marth's fair is good against TL but TL will probably be trying to camp Marth vertically with bombs most of the time anyway. I'm not saying TL has an advantage or anything, just that he'll probably go vertical to nullify the advantage Marth has on a horizontal plane.

 

[NickRiddle]

TL is bad because he doesn't do anything but dash quickly.

 

[Dre89]

Genuine question, do you think ZSS' suitpiece game is bad because they can all be powershielded or inta-thrown?

 

[Yobolight]

Lucario could have been high tier IMO.

Lucario is underrepresented in competitive play because it is incredibly demanding to learn all his combos on each percent on each character for each level of aura.

DDD is a pretty solid secondary against if you have trouble with like Wario/Snake.

 

[infiniteV115]

Genuine question, do you think ZSS' suitpiece game is bad because they can all be powershielded or inta-thrown?

I definitely do not.

 

[Espy Rose]

I think ZSS's suitpiece game is bad because she's bad.

 

[FourStar]

I think ZSS's suitpiece game is bad because she's bad.

Hey espy have you been entering tourneys lately? i love you're sonic and i wanna see some more of it!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What mix up pressure? Toon Link is slow.

Uhh, his projectiles speed wise are meh but his air speed, dash speed, and his basic moves are pretty fast.

How is he slow?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Sonic and Yoshi have both had a lot of good representation. Good players, bad character.

This.

Put them both back in low tier.

 

[Delta-cod]

Uh, no.

Wow they fixed the 10char limit.

 

[Lord Viper]

I'm guessing Kirby's placement will not rise or drop anytime soon. I don't know if his meta changed or not. ★

 

[RaptorTEC]

Uh, no.

Wow they fixed the 10char limit.

You right Yoshi is good we all just suck as Yoshi mains.

 

[Dekillsage]

Genuine question, do you think ZSS' suitpiece game is bad because they can all be powershielded or inta-thrown?

I don't play Zss but when I had to go up against armor pieces it was really... overwhelming. Couldn't do anything as snake once she gets started, and when I tried to yolo it I just my stock(never felt smarter). I don't think this is the case in every match up but vs snake where the pieces are bouncing and she's being her bird self all around you its really annoying.

Uhh, his projectiles speed wise are meh but his air speed, dash speed, and his basic moves are pretty fast.

How is he slow?

His jab comes out on frame 6 or 7 and he has a grab that's 100% yolo just do it get no reward(unless you're doing the kingtoon special). His dash speed is good, but people can hit him before he even gets the chance to do so once in range. It's really easy to get in range of toonlink too, he doesn't go many places when he's in the air and he covers his landing decently but its not going to save him from people like Snake or Falco any time soon.

It's a common misconception that ToonLinks moves come out really quickly making him a good character. If they did he would be high tier, but his movesets speed and problems recovering/landing as well as his projectile game losing to moves and block make him, once again, mid tier.

In my opinion TL should be in the same tier Rob and Peach are currently in. The fact that Rob is so low is amazing to me, but we can worry about that later.

This.

Put them both back in low tier.

Sonic and Yoshi are in the right tier. Whether or not they're in the right spots in that tier... I don't know.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

His jab comes out on frame 6 or 7 and he has a grab that's 100% yolo just do it get no reward(unless you're doing the kingtoon special). His dash speed is good, but people can hit him before he even gets the chance to do so once in range. It's really easy to get in range of toonlink too, he doesn't go many places when he's in the air and he covers his landing decently but its not going to save him from people like Snake or Falco any time soon.

It's a common misconception that ToonLinks moves come out really quickly making him a good character. If they did he would be high tier, but his movesets speed and problems recovering/landing as well as his projectile game losing to moves and block make him, once again, mid tier.

In my opinion TL should be in the same tier Rob and Peach are currently in. The fact that Rob is so low is amazing to me, but we can worry about that later.

Jab is a bad move on TL, but that isn't the focus of his move set anyways. His grab is meh, due to the fact he gets a Zair with it.

His range is short sure, but his movement with, projectile game, and at least some form of range helps him perform fine. His tools are above a least a decent chunk of the cast.

 

[Dekillsage]

His tools don't make him high tier though. The high tiers have things that put them above the mid tiers, and toon links tools aren't good enough for him to be considered high tier. Looking at the current tier list, toonlink doesn't have anything that makes him better than game and watch, fox, or pit. Is toonlinks ability to jump and throw projectiles that don't hit enough for him to win better than fox's ability to walk up to you at any point in time? How is toonlinks zoning better than pits? Pit at least has a grab in addition to shooting arrows and can stay on the ledge somewhat reliably. Or game and watches ability to get rewarded wayyy more than toonlink does for getting reads?

Why is it that a high tier character has to throw projectiles for 6-7 minutes at a minimum to barely win or lose anyways? Doesn't sound high tier to me. Sounds like a mid tier.

 

[Delta-cod]

Why is it that a high tier character has to throw projectiles for 6-7 minutes at a minimum to barely win or lose anyways? Doesn't sound high tier to me. Sounds like a mid tier.

I remember when I made this Yoshi's metagame.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Why is it that a high tier character has to throw projectiles for 6-7 minutes at a minimum to barely win or lose anyways? Doesn't sound high tier to me. Sounds like a mid tier.

The same way Marth has to space properly for 6-7 minutes to squeak out a win.
Just because a character doesn't absolutely dominate does not mean they aren't high tier.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Should really try looking at toonlinks frame data
then proceed to power shielding every projectile. The character is mediocre with good representation, that's all.

I thought it was the other way around.

 

[Dekillsage]

The same way Marth has to space properly for 6-7 minutes to squeak out a win.
Just because a character doesn't absolutely dominate does not mean they aren't high tier.

What? When marth lands a move he can continue to push his advantage. ToonLink can't do that when he's fullscreen throwing stuff because there's nothing else he can do.

I thought it was the other way around.

nope. Good players, bad character.

 

[NickRiddle]

Genuine question, do you think ZSS' suitpiece game is bad because they can all be powershielded or inta-thrown?

Well... if she threw armor as slow at TL threw his projectiles, then yes I would... The problems with comparing the two are:

1. ZSS uses armor as added mobility. On an already fast character this is silly.
2. ZSS's armor can be used for fake-outs due to 1.

Also, I wasn't just talking about his projectiles. I meant the fact that his jumps are slow, he's floaty as ****, AND his camp game.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

dekillsage, I see what you mean. Toon Link actually is *kind of* slow. His frame data is actually similiar to Bowser's, except he doesn't kill anywhere as much and has projectiles to actually be useful.
But honestly, I can't see him as bad as you make him ought to be. Do you have a video as an example exploiting TINK's weakeneses like that?