Official Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Villager

[Darklink401]

So, this gets a little more complicated now, but this has been a really good discussion so far.

It seems obvious to me that we want the following sets as summarized nicely by Hilt:

1122
1322
1121
1321

This covers that in most match-ups Exploding Balloon Trip and default Pocket are best while covering the preference points between Pushy Lloid and Timber Counter, major preference points at that. Does any Villager player feel that these four sets do not warrant inclusion? If it's universally agreed that these four are good enough to use, that lets us frame it as a debate for the bottom 6.

As far as I can tell, support for side-2 and up-3 is incredibly niche; these moves don't seem independently bad to me, but I at least really struggle to imagine a good justification for taking them over Villager's other excellent options in those slots. Super Timber is a really fun move, but I haven't heard any support for it as a move with serious competitive merit so much as just being a whole lot of fun. That leaves us with Garden, Pocket Plus, and Balloon Trip to populate the bottom six slots, noting that 1111 is of course always available without consuming a slot. Garden is a distinctly marginal move, but it is strictly superior to the other two options in a lot of match-ups. Pocket Plus is optimal for only a few match-ups but is really nice in those few. Balloon Trip is arguably not worth including at all, but there are enough people who have a preference for it (rational or not) that it seems likely to cause upset feelings if it doesn't get some sets, and I can easily imagine a lot of people who aren't speaking up about it feeling the same way. How would this go for making everyone happy?

3122
3121
2121
2122
1112
1312

The downside here is that you aren't allowed to use Pushy Lloid with Pocket variants (or with default Ballon Trip if you also want default Timber), but would that be a problem in practice? It seems like for the most part this apporach would do a pretty good job of leaving no one out in the cold. Of course the decision rests with you guys, but I just thought I'd post what I'm seeing based on your arguments so far.

Has Balloon jump been considered at all?

I feel it should be included in at least one set, as its Villager's fastest recovery, and can snap to ledge if used a few feet below it.

 

[SoniCraft]

I still fail to see why Pocket Plus is such a great custom move that it deserves to take up TWO SLOTS. Seriously, we all know how huge the regular Pocket is already! It goes behind Villager for goodness sake. If you can't effectively play against a Ness because you don't have Pocket Plus, then I question your merits as a Villager player. Why don't we use those two slots for sets with pushy lloid? That move has MUCH more justification behind it when looking at several MUs.

I think this set would be best against Sheik, Sonic, and Yoshi, three of our hardest MUs:

2322

Regular pocket isn't worth having in any of these, so garden is the obvious replacement. Pushy Lloid helps stuff these characters' great speed, along with Timber Counter. And I think that Ex. BT has enough going for it to be included as well, especially against Sheik.

If somebody has an argument for why this set shouldn't be included, I would love to hear it.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Pepperz, I dont understand what you mean when you go on and on about autosnapping and invincibility... If youre going in as deep as you imply you are, then youre going to autosnap the ledge with Extreme. You wont get invincibility back if youve already grabbed on once after going offstage unless you get hit.

Not only that, but you keep talking about being able to gimp people at 20-30% by just using NAir? No offense, but it sounds like youre just playing against really bad people if they get themselves in such a position so early in the game, and then are unable to avoid three NAirs. This doesnt help your case at all.

And youre tyna say Trip will become the standard over time because... A MELEE player made a comment about MELEE'S metagame? And that somehow Trip is a faster, more offensive option than Extreme? Whaaaat?

 

[Player-1]

So, this gets a little more complicated now, but this has been a really good discussion so far.

It seems obvious to me that we want the following sets as summarized nicely by Hilt:

1122
1322
1121
1321

This covers that in most match-ups Exploding Balloon Trip and default Pocket are best while covering the preference points between Pushy Lloid and Timber Counter, major preference points at that. Does any Villager player feel that these four sets do not warrant inclusion? If it's universally agreed that these four are good enough to use, that lets us frame it as a debate for the bottom 6.

As far as I can tell, support for side-2 and up-3 is incredibly niche; these moves don't seem independently bad to me, but I at least really struggle to imagine a good justification for taking them over Villager's other excellent options in those slots. Super Timber is a really fun move, but I haven't heard any support for it as a move with serious competitive merit so much as just being a whole lot of fun. That leaves us with Garden, Pocket Plus, and Balloon Trip to populate the bottom six slots, noting that 1111 is of course always available without consuming a slot. Garden is a distinctly marginal move, but it is strictly superior to the other two options in a lot of match-ups. Pocket Plus is optimal for only a few match-ups but is really nice in those few. Balloon Trip is arguably not worth including at all, but there are enough people who have a preference for it (rational or not) that it seems likely to cause upset feelings if it doesn't get some sets, and I can easily imagine a lot of people who aren't speaking up about it feeling the same way. How would this go for making everyone happy?

3122
3121
2121
2122
1112
1312

The downside here is that you aren't allowed to use Pushy Lloid with Pocket variants (or with default Ballon Trip if you also want default Timber), but would that be a problem in practice? It seems like for the most part this apporach would do a pretty good job of leaving no one out in the cold. Of course the decision rests with you guys, but I just thought I'd post what I'm seeing based on your arguments so far.

I firmly believe villager's best custom set in general is 1322 and 2322 when the character has no projectiles so since 1322 is already there I'd like to see 2322

maybe having a super timber set would be nice to have for doubles, I could see some potential there, but IDK how much

The meta will always lean towards faster characters. It happens all the time. Look at the top tier compared to bottom tier, the faster characters are rated higher. This is common in all smash games. Armada been mention that he's going fox cuz that's where the meta was heading. That is where I feel extreme lacks compared to balloon trip. The speed. So why are we slowing him down now. You guys are looking at the current thing of what's hot or not but the balloon trip regular will become the best one over time. Auto snap for a 2 second invincibility is great. Changes up pace.

Again, I'll challenge anybody for a custom position. If you don't accept my challenge don't worry about trying to convince me in words about extreme trip. Show me extreme is better them balloon trip and I'll show you you're wrong.

Balloon Trip is not fast, in fact that's the reason why I don't think Villager's recovery isn't very good, you're look at this from a very 2 dimensional view. Yes, EBT's floating is very slow and doesn't offer much mobility, but the jump he gets from the explosion moves you vertically fast, you change your position quickly which is what balloon trip lacks. If Villager is just floating with the balloons to recover he's going to find similar problems no matter what custom up-b you use, but with EBT you at least have a hitbox and a good burst vertical recovery that will allow him to move around his opponent.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

@ DtJ Hilt : I understand that Pocket Plus works wonders against Diddy and Ness. But it's just as niche a custom as Garden imo. It shouldn't be considered for our "standard" custom sets. Right now I feel it looks like this for singles:

1122
1322
1121
1321

These are our most effective sets overall imo. The last six slots could be used for Trip, Plus, and Garden sets.

Sets AA mentioned but I didn't include are 1112 and Garden sets. 1112 is the most conservative of them probably, but idk how much support/usage they have.

Super timber is still way up in the air I think. Aside from the 1323 and 2323 sets I mentioned I haven't really seen much support for it.

 

[SoniCraft]

@ DtJ Hilt : I understand that Pocket Plus works wonders against Diddy and Ness. But it's just as niche a custom as Garden imo. It shouldn't be considered for our "standard" custom sets. Right now I feel it looks like this for singles:

1122
1322
1121
1321

These are our most effective sets overall imo. The last six slots could be used for Trip, Plus, and Garden sets.

Sets AA mentioned but I didn't include are 1112 and Garden sets. 1112 is the most conservative of them probably, but idk how much support/usage they have.

Super timber is still way up in the air I think. Aside from the 1323 and 2323 sets I mentioned I haven't really seen much support for it.

I agree on Super Timber being in the air. However, if it's possible, it would be nice to have at least one set so that people can experiment with it. If a custom move is never used, how will we ever see its potential?

 

[Darklink401]

What exactly does Super Timber do, aside from being bigger? Any extra damage?


Also, because of the different ways there are to play Villager, different specials could definitely benefit different players, but I'd think Pocket in itself is a good enough move. Even against non-projectile characters, it can be used as an alternative airdodge but with reverse momentum, but Im not sure if Garden has the same invincibility time.



Also I love how technically EBT seems the slowest, but the slowest is actually Balloon Trip.

The only bad part about EBT is the fact it cant autosnap ledge on the way up. That being said, Balloon High Jump is still my favorite.

 

[Pepperz]

You can not move your villager to the same degree of speed as I could with regular balloon trip. You can't chase as far as I could playing off stage. Even being spikes won't kill villager with balloon trip.

Gimps happen when you catch them off stage which can be very likely. You get hit by even one nair can lead to gimps. Yeah, they can air dodge the second nair and fall even further pass the returning point of each characters specials.

I disagree I'll find similar problem. It's the mobility with the ledge game which is villagers speciality. 'll take mobility of villager over offensive options that slow him down.

I'll challenge any build against mine if you think extreme is better. If this extreme balloons kicks my ass, I'll stop pushing balloon trip.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I agree on Super Timber being in the air. However, if it's possible, it would be nice to have at least one set so that people can experiment with it. If a custom move is never used, how will we ever see its potential?

While I agree with the logic, you've got to keep in mind that the reason it will never be used is because the majority of people never found a good reason to use it in the first place. Like, it's underused for a reason.

However, since I like to think we only have 4 "vital" sets, that gives us a lot more flexibility. It leaves six slots open for experimenting with customs. If, even at that point, sets with things like Super and Jump don't make the cut, then it's because there's just no significant reward that warrants their using up a slot over other unorthodox but slightly more viable sets.

What exactly does Super Timber do, aside from being bigger? Any extra damage?


Also, because of the different ways there are to play Villager, different specials could definitely benefit different players, but I'd think Pocket in itself is a good enough move. Even against non-projectile characters, it can be used as an alternative airdodge but with reverse momentum, but Im not sure if Garden has the same invincibility time.



Also I love how technically EBT seems the slowest, but the slowest is actually Balloon Trip.

The only bad part about EBT is the fact it cant autosnap ledge on the way up. That being said, Balloon High Jump is still my favorite.

Super timber's watering can applies more KB, the axe deals more damage, the tree growth deals more damage and doesn't weaken as much as standard's does, the falling tree deals more damage and has slightly higher BKB with slightly lower BKB, the grounded hit has slightly higher BKB with equal KBG and greater damage. They all have high hitlag (which isn't necessarily a good thing).

However, the axe's and tree growth's hitboxes that 8F longer to come out, and the falling tree's takes 9F longer.

You can not move your villager to the same degree of speed as I could with regular balloon trip. You can't chase as far as I could playing off stage. Even being spikes won't kill villager with balloon trip.

Gimps happen when you catch them off stage which can be very likely. You get hit by even one nair can lead to gimps. Yeah, they can air dodge the second nair and fall even further pass the returning point of each characters specials.

I disagree I'll find similar problem. It's the mobility with the ledge game which is villagers speciality. 'll take mobility of villager over offensive options that slow him down.

I'll challenge any build against mine if you think extreme is better. If this extreme balloons kicks my ***, I'll stop pushing balloon trip.

All things considered, Extreme isn't any less mobile than Trip.

I still have a really hard time the people you're gimping with NAir at 20% are even remotely competent players.

I would play you literally right now if it weren't for the fact that my 3DS died and I play significantly worse with the GamePad than I do with a GCC. I know, these are basically johns. As soon as the adapter I ordered comes in, or I get a new system, whichever happens first, I'll be more than happy to go a few rounds.

 

[Darklink401]

You can not move your villager to the same degree of speed as I could with regular balloon trip. You can't chase as far as I could playing off stage. Even being spikes won't kill villager with balloon trip.

Gimps happen when you catch them off stage which can be very likely. You get hit by even one nair can lead to gimps. Yeah, they can air dodge the second nair and fall even further pass the returning point of each characters specials.

I disagree I'll find similar problem. It's the mobility with the ledge game which is villagers speciality. 'll take mobility of villager over offensive options that slow him down.

I'll challenge any build against mine if you think extreme is better. If this extreme balloons kicks my ***, I'll stop pushing balloon trip.

1. Yes EBT can recover from pretty much anywhere regular Balloon Trip can
2. Yes you can chase as far off stage and return with EBT
3. Yes you can die from spikes with regular Balloon Trip.

Now that that's out of the way, lets point one thing out

Balloon Trip is NOT bad at all. But if you think its FAST

You are high, friend.

EBT adds a hitbox that can kill and stage spike, and adds a vertical recovery pop-off that goes faster than Balloon Trip can.


it's just a general upgrade. The only flaw is that if you let go by accident, you need to release right away, if trying to recover upward, because it wont rise if you stall, but that can happen with regular Balloon Trip as well.

EDIT: @ Indigo Jeans

In that case, I think it might be worthwhile at least experimenting with it, because It could prove to be an even better edgeguard and more consistent kill option XP ive seen the tree. its huuuge.

 

[Pepperz]

Challenge? Vzn_pepperz

Everybody talking like extreme is god like. I want somebody to prove to me extreme is better.

Any takers?

 

[Pepperz]

Indigo jeans, I'll gladly play you. I have the upmost confidence in my build. I don't feel it's getting much respect but I know I can beat a good portion if villager players. And it will be attribute to the play style of edge guarding with a faster player off stage.

 

[Antonykun]

Indigo jeans, I'll gladly play you. I have the upmost confidence in my build. I don't feel it's getting much respect but I know I can beat a good portion if villager players. And it will be attribute to the play style of edge guarding with a faster player off stage.

What would a good portion be? Also beating a Villager 1v1 only says you might be better in a ditto.

 

[Darklink401]

Indigo jeans, I'll gladly play you. I have the upmost confidence in my build. I don't feel it's getting much respect but I know I can beat a good portion if villager players. And it will be attribute to the play style of edge guarding with a faster player off stage.

EBT is not god-like. But its hard to find anything Balloon Trip can do that EBT can't do better, or to the same extent or result.

That said, I feel a 1v1 dittos match proves nothing at all. At best, it will prove which one is good playing Villager more, which dosnt prove the point at all. I've been using Baloon Trip for months, and even I can see its flaws.

First off, fighting Jigglypuffs, Pits and other multijumpers is hell on earth, when trying to recover.


I'm more accustomed to Balloon Trip, but I AM giving EBT a try, even if I prefer Balloon High Jump. Have you tried either of them?

 

[Pepperz]

Majority of the players favor extreme over trip. That doesn't mean it's better but just more popular. They allow players to provide different styles of villagers. I prefer a faster villager then a balloon exploding villager. I already have dair fair nair for killing them off stage, afterwards I'm just trying to get back to the ledge as fast as possible to set up for the next stock. I'm going to have a difference in opinion but that doesn't mean I'm wrong or even right. Instead of putting into words that x>y, I want to show off the build. I prefer the 1312 and I'll play the game to show everybody it's a very viable build if it suits your play style. How else can you convince somebody else if words never will?

 

[Darklink401]

Majority of the players favor extreme over trip. That doesn't mean it's better but just more popular. They allow players to provide different styles of villagers. I prefer a faster villager then a balloon exploding villager. I already have dair fair nair for killing them off stage, afterwards I'm just trying to get back to the ledge as fast as possible to set up for the next stock. I'm going to have a difference in opinion but that doesn't mean I'm wrong or even right. Instead of putting into words that x>y, I want to show off the build. I prefer the 1312 and I'll play the game to show everybody it's a very viable build if it suits your play style. How else can you convince somebody else if words never will?

But then the question comes, if you want to get back to the ledge as fast as possible, why are you not using Balloon High Jump?

 

[SoniCraft]

Majority of the players favor extreme over trip. That doesn't mean it's better but just more popular. They allow players to provide different styles of villagers. I prefer a faster villager then a balloon exploding villager. I already have dair fair nair for killing them off stage, afterwards I'm just trying to get back to the ledge as fast as possible to set up for the next stock. I'm going to have a difference in opinion but that doesn't mean I'm wrong or even right. Instead of putting into words that x>y, I want to show off the build. I prefer the 1312 and I'll play the game to show everybody it's a very viable build if it suits your play style. How else can you convince somebody else if words never will?

Your whole argument for preferring Default over Extreme is that Default makes your villager "faster", when, statistically and practically, that isn't really true. Do you seriously think that EBT is so slow that your opponent could somehow gain some overwhelming positional advantage after dying from a quick gimp?

And Darklink presents an amazing point. Specifically for the purpose you keep bringing up, Balloon High Jump would actually be more appropriate, as it rises at the fastest rate.

Edit: I'm also in the same boat that fighting a villager ditto won't really prove much about the different up specials' viability. Now video evidence of a villager against several other characters would be nice.

 

[Darklink401]

Your whole argument for preferring Default over Extreme is that Default makes your villager "faster", when, statistically and practically, that isn't really true. Do you seriously think that EBT is so slow that your opponent could somehow gain some overwhelming positional advantage after dying from a quick gimp?

And Darklink presents an amazing point. Specifically for the purpose you keep bringing up, Balloon High Jump would actually be more appropriate, as it rises at the fastest rate.

Not to mention, if you pop the balloons of EBT, you rise faster than regular Balloon Trip anyways...

 

[Pepperz]

Cuz it's not the most versatile recovery. High jump is very predicable compared to trip. In a game where people crunch frames and try to be as precise as possible, every little bit of time of getting back on stage can matter when trying to gain an advantage. It's a pros con debate but you're not taking into account playstyles. Yes there is a difference from my style to yours. That's why I'll challenge people but that won't convince anybody.

 

[Tinkerer]

I do feel EBT is less versatile in some cases than normal BT - especially the stages you can fly under to get to the other side or if you're up against characters that can throw stuff off the edge straight down and you want to be able to dodge (like Pac-Man, another Villager, Kirby, etc.). EBT is very powerful, but BT has enough purposes for it to be included in a bunch of extra sets.

The back and forth here about what's strictly better is going to lead nowhere, the point of having so many sets available is that it's possible to suit multiple preferences - unless we're running out of slots, but I don't think that's the case.

 

[Pepperz]

I have played extreme but not high jump, haven't unlocked it but seen videos of it and wasn't crazy about that special. I feel so sluggish with extreme. Feels like I'm playing shulk with a shield on all game when I'm playing off stage. Not my cup of tea.

 

[Player-1]

Cuz it's not the most versatile recovery. High jump is very predicable compared to trip. In a game where people crunch frames and try to be as precise as possible, every little bit of time of getting back on stage can matter when trying to gain an advantage. It's a pros con debate but you're not taking into account playstyles. Yes there is a difference from my style to yours. That's why I'll challenge people but that won't convince anybody.

What does it matter if you're predictable if your opponent is dead? You just said you're just trying to get back to the ledge as fast as possible.

I already have dair fair nair for killing them off stage, afterwards I'm just trying to get back to the ledge as fast as possible to set up for the next stock.

So according to your logic, high balloon jump would be best for you.

 

[Pepperz]

If every time you leave the stage was the same, then yes that would be the best one but youre not. There are multiple situations where it's not going to be that way. You can be smashed off the ledge and the high jump won't be that great but thats the trade off. That's why trip would be the better option. It's more versatile.

 

[Player-1]

Yes, exactly, but then EBT has the most versatility since it has a good amount of horizontal distance while having very good vertical distance when you explode the balloons, it gets you high up very fast AND has a hitbox. I might use EBT over regular balloon trip even if it didn't have the explosion property just because you can shift where you are very fast. Balloon Trip is slow and very easy to react to, if an opponent is coming after you then there's not much you can do about it - you're gonna take the hit. At least EBT will give you situations where if the opponent goes after you then you quickly get away from them if you want.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

So, this gets a little more complicated now, but this has been a really good discussion so far.

It seems obvious to me that we want the following sets as summarized nicely by Hilt:

1122
1322
1121
1321

This covers that in most match-ups Exploding Balloon Trip and default Pocket are best while covering the preference points between Pushy Lloid and Timber Counter, major preference points at that. Does any Villager player feel that these four sets do not warrant inclusion? If it's universally agreed that these four are good enough to use, that lets us frame it as a debate for the bottom 6.

As far as I can tell, support for side-2 and up-3 is incredibly niche; these moves don't seem independently bad to me, but I at least really struggle to imagine a good justification for taking them over Villager's other excellent options in those slots. Super Timber is a really fun move, but I haven't heard any support for it as a move with serious competitive merit so much as just being a whole lot of fun. That leaves us with Garden, Pocket Plus, and Balloon Trip to populate the bottom six slots, noting that 1111 is of course always available without consuming a slot. Garden is a distinctly marginal move, but it is strictly superior to the other two options in a lot of match-ups. Pocket Plus is optimal for only a few match-ups but is really nice in those few. Balloon Trip is arguably not worth including at all, but there are enough people who have a preference for it (rational or not) that it seems likely to cause upset feelings if it doesn't get some sets, and I can easily imagine a lot of people who aren't speaking up about it feeling the same way. How would this go for making everyone happy?

3122
3121
2121
2122
1112
1312

The downside here is that you aren't allowed to use Pushy Lloid with Pocket variants (or with default Ballon Trip if you also want default Timber), but would that be a problem in practice? It seems like for the most part this apporach would do a pretty good job of leaving no one out in the cold. Of course the decision rests with you guys, but I just thought I'd post what I'm seeing based on your arguments so far.

The two Pocket Plus setups and Balloon Trip setups are good, in my opinion.

If garden has a fan base, I'd definitely like to hear the arguments for it. I would much rather see 3321 and 3322 in those spots. But if Garden is actually getting selected and has applicable uses, then that's fine. I feel like having pushing Lloid is not as important in setups with Pocket Plus, especially considering Pocket Plus is should generally be used in the Ness and Diddy matchup, which I feel standard Lloid Rocket fares better in.

 

[SoniCraft]

If there has to be a Pocket Plus set, I say only put one in. Replace the other with a 2322 set.

 

[Darklink401]

If every time you leave the stage was the same, then yes that would be the best one but youre not. There are multiple situations where it's not going to be that way. You can be smashed off the ledge and the high jump won't be that great but thats the trade off. That's why trip would be the better option. It's more versatile.

That's why if you have Jump, you gotta have regular lloid, to cover horizontal recovery.

But for gimping and getting tot he ledge to recover your jump, then go back for more gimping, its the best.


Also trip isnt versatile at all. EBT is much more versatile, since you basically have an eject button that sends you up at any time.

The two Pocket Plus setups and Balloon Trip setups are good, in my opinion.

If garden has a fan base, I'd definitely like to hear the arguments for it. I would much rather see 3321 and 3322 in those spots. But if Garden is actually getting selected and has applicable uses, then that's fine. I feel like having pushing Lloid is not as important in setups with Pocket Plus, especially considering Pocket Plus is should generally be used in the Ness and Diddy matchup, which I feel standard Lloid Rocket fares better in.

If you are good enough, the absorb timeframe is good enough, and you can just b-reverse to pocket something behind you.

Also it is useful against non-projectile characters.


I'd say, pocket is plenty okay for gimping Ness recovery. But can you pocket Diddys barrels? O.o

 

[Pepperz]

EBT is not as fast as BT. That's why it has the hit boxes. It's a compromise with the special properties. I have way more control over BT with speed and direction. That's fact. Stop pushing lies that speed and directional control is the same with both EBT and BT. That's what I'm talking about that your opinion is made up and push non factual proof to support a custom of your liking.

EBT may feel right for you but it doesn't for me. Words won't switch my opinion or yours. I just want a slot for my build so I can compete and not feel forced to play other players way. I'm willing to play this build into the common standard list.

I play in tournaments. I placed 17/40 my very first tournament. Not great. Next was 9/40. Better than the first tournament. I played default villager. My goal is to shoot for top 8 which will be hard. I'll run it back to everybody when we have the next one. Customs are legal.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I'd say, pocket is plenty okay for gimping Ness recovery. But can you pocket Diddys barrels? O.o

Balloon Trip is "plenty okay", but I personally would rather go the extra mile for EBT. I want every advantage I can get in a matchup and, since you're not losing anything by going with Pocket Plus, there isn't any reason to not have at least one custom setup that includes it for that matchup.

 

[Darklink401]

EBT is not as fast as BT. That's why it has the hit boxes. It's a compromise with the special properties. I have way more control over BT with speed and direction. That's fact. Stop pushing lies that speed and directional control is the same with both EBT and BT. That's what I'm talking about that your opinion is made up and push non factual proof to support a custom of your liking.

EBT may feel right for you but it doesn't for me. Words won't switch my opinion or yours. I just want a slot for my build so I can compete and not feel forced to play other players way. I'm willing to play this build into the common standard list.

I play in tournaments. I placed 17/40 my very first tournament. Not great. Next was 9/40. Better than the first tournament. I played default villager. My goal is to shoot for top 8 which will be hard. I'll run it back to everybody when we have the next one. Customs are legal.

To be noted, I never said the directional control is the same. It's really not.

And its only faster if you count the eject feature of it, which cant even sweetspot XP


EDIT: What's the downside to pocket plus? o.o

 

[Cool Typhlosion]

this is my set
1233

 

[SoniCraft]

Well one thing I'm learning is that sadly, I don't think every villager main will come out happy when all is said and done for this project.

 

[Pepperz]

How many people actually go to tournaments?

People that actually go to tournaments should have more rights to their main then somebody giving their popular opinion on builds. Why should John Doe have a saying on what all other villager players should play when all he does is visit the smash site and play at home?

I want this to be fair to all villager mains that don't follow the norm. Let's the players placing and tournament frequency determine the list instead of people's opinions.

If I have to go to a tournament to prove my builds viability, why doesn't everybody else?

 

[Antonykun]

I took the time to actually compare Trip and EBT and yes Trip IS faster than EBT at coming back. the explosion will not outsnap to the ledge meaning that you have to deal with villager's slow fall to grab the ledge and Jump misses the ledge in way too many scenarios so it's speed barely matters but it's lack of control does.... BUT I have to ask if it is actually worth losing one of if not the best recovery moves in the game...

 

[Pepperz]

Calling it the best in arbitrary to your playing style. I like control. I like mobility. If I want to switch sides from below the stage, I can. If I want to fake them out and pretend I'm going to the other side, I can. If I want to hold below the stage where they can't hit me for a second or two, I can. If I wiff a nair for a gimp, I can rush back to stage just as fast or faster then the person in trying to kill. They're are a lot more applications for BT then most people give it credit for.

Go to the general competitive section as ask for top 3 default up specials, 99% of the population will include villager. It's not like EBT takes it to a whole new level on top tier specials.

Players with projectiles can still pop EBT from a distance. It's really only good if it's a non projectile character but even they won't jump into the balloons if they knew the build. Before they even get a chance to pop both balloons, I'll grab the ledge safely before they get the other one because of that speed and mobility that I get with BT.

 

[Darklink401]

I took the time to actually compare Trip and EBT and yes Trip IS faster than EBT at coming back. the explosion will not outsnap to the ledge meaning that you have to deal with villager's slow fall to grab the ledge and Jump misses the ledge in way too many scenarios so it's speed barely matters but it's lack of control does.... BUT I have to ask if it is actually worth losing one of if not the best recovery moves in the game...

Jump won't miss the ledge on a lot of stages, if started at or below a certain distance. I will test it further, but I know it DOESN'T autosnap to BF Omega, but it DOES Autosnap to curved stages such as Palutena Omega.

Calling it the best in arbitrary to your playing style. I like control. I like mobility. If I want to switch sides from below the stage, I can. If I want to fake them out and pretend I'm going to the other side, I can. If I want to hold below the stage where they can't hit me for a second or two, I can. If I wiff a nair for a gimp, I can rush back to stage just as fast or faster then the person in trying to kill. They're are a lot more applications for BT then most people give it credit for.

Go to the general competitive section as ask for top 3 default up specials, 99% of the population will include villager. It's not like EBT takes it to a whole new level on top tier specials.

Players with projectiles can still pop EBT from a distance. It's really only good if it's a non projectile character but even they won't jump into the balloons if they knew the build. Before they even get a chance to pop both balloons, I'll grab the ledge safely before they get the other one because of that speed and mobility that I get with BT.

Balloon Trip isn't fast at all though.

It's distance is amazing, and I love it (don't get me wrong)

But at the very least, I feel there are at least 5 others that trump it, or are on par with it.

Including Pikachu's, Jump Kirby's, Sheik's, etc. In fact, there was a discussion-based recovery ranking made, that put those three characters above Villager, and put Greninja and ZSS (though I'm unsure about Greninja) right below him.


Also saying EBT is only really good if it's a non-projectile character is also a strong argument against regular balloon trip....which isn't the case, cuz hardly anyone can pop them without hurting Villager, consistently.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

EDIT: What's the downside to pocket plus? o.o

x1.3 damage modifier instead of x1.9.

 

[Darklink401]

x1.3 damage modifier instead of x1.9.

Oh alright.

Yeah, for Ness and Diddy I suppose it'd be useful, if you're further away than the ledge.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Yeah, there's little reason not to have it. Trying to think of other characters it would be useful against, but nothings coming to mind at the moment.

Edit: Zero Suit Samus? If pocket doesn't amplify stun duration, I would want Pocket Plus against her.

 

[Player-1]

pocket does amplify stun duration