Official Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Villager

Amazing Ampharos

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#1
Welcome to the official Smashboards Standard Custom Set project. In brief, this project is designed to be a logistical solution to using custom movesets in tournaments by filling many of the in-game slots with the most popular and powerful sets for each character so they can be quickly selected without further 3ds import. This will allow tournaments with customizations on to save large amounts of time throughout the event. More details about the project's ideas and mission can be found here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-proposal-we-can-make-custom-moves-fast-easy-and-legal.379555/

Our goal here is to find out what the most popular and powerful sets are for your particular character the best way we know how: asking you the mains of this character. To be clear, we're not talking about disallowing any particular custom sets or even imposing any rules in general; we're talking about making sure the popular and powerful options are simply accessible quickly in a tournament environment as our sole mission. We need up to three critical sets that represent the best options your character has that have wide general utility and from there to fill up to slot 6 with supplemental movesets that will cover less mainstream, more match-up specific, or even teams sets. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 to allow all moves to be explored more easily in the new metagame, and slots 9 and 10 are left open for 3ds import of non-standard sets.

Please list all movesets in the order NSUD, that is neutral special, side special, up special, and down special. This four digit code will be the naming convention so players can quickly and easily identify which moveset is which.

I know for many characters the default moveset, 1111, is a powerful and useful option. However, it should not be included; the game allows default to be picked regardless of what custom options are prepared so including it does not add any additional options to players.

I further know that some characters may find six slots a large number to fill. Others may find six very limiting. Do your best to pick out the overall six most likely to be picked even if some good stuff has to be left on the table or if some more experimental sets have to be included to fill out six. Every set included is time saved in tournament when that set would be picked, and we want to make the best use we can of these slots.

I would ask that everyone please be respectful of each other's opinions; this game is young, and the metagame is still very much forming so we are likely to each perceive it differently. This project will be revisited throughout the game's lifespan and revised to properly include the most mainstream movesets at the time. What we want for now is what will be commonly selected for now, and don't worry, other options are not being discriminated against as those last two slots are left open for 3ds transfer for a reason. This first version of this project will be refined throughout the rest of the year, but I hope to have a very rough draft up and usable by December 5 so TOs who wish to use the results of this project will have something to plug in for that weekend's worth of events. Thank you for your cooperation in this project, and we look forward to making sure the most useful options are quickly available for your character under this system.
 

Kofu

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#2
I agree with @ Plino Plino assessment of Villager's custom move options found here.. From that, I'd personally have the top three custom sets for Villager be:
1322
2322
1122
I personally prefer Pushy Lloid to the standard Lloid Rocket, since I feel it has much more defensive utility. The extra distance that the standard has is extremely helpful for zoning and recovery (although recovering with Lloid is pretty unsafe) and it has more power when riding it to ram a foe. The second set is for opponents without a strong projectile game.

Not really sure what to use beyond those; probably at least one set that uses normal Balloon Trip and one that uses Timber. They're good moves on their own but their respective customs (Extreme Balloon Trip and Timber Counter) are practically always better.
 
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#3
Agreement to the above. Counter Timber and Extreme Balloon Trip are too good to pass up, leaving the choices being between Pocket/Garden and Lloid Rocket/Pushy Lloid. As such, the below sets should be a part of the given 6:

1122 1322 2122 2322

The other two can probably go to default versions of their moves, but considering how they wouldn't compare to the above, they're essentially filler. Anyway, the remaining 2 should probably be picked from the following:

1112 1121 1311 1312 1321
2111 2112 2121 2311 2312 2321
 

SoniCraft

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#4
Not sure if this will affect anything, but I think us villager mains agree that Pocket Plus and Rising Lloid aren't ever really going to see use because of their ineffectiveness, so I don't see a any set with 33 as the first two numbers being used at all. This includes the 3333 set, so I would leave it out of the options to be replaced with something villagers would actually use.
 
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#6
Anti-Ness set 3222 or 3122 pokecting pk thunder for early kills is far more important than anything else.
Pocket Plus is completely unnecessary considering how large regular Pocket's range is, and the throwback won't do anywhere near as much damage as the default or Garden variants. Pocket Plus is an overall downgrade when in the hands of a capable Villager main in the first place. 1122, 1222, and 2122 are the sets you should be using instead, especially if trying to be Anti-Ness.
 
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#7
As a Villager main, while I see the appeal of Timber Counter, standard Timber is still excellent in it's own right. Making the choice between the two is difficult, for me at least. It's such a good kill move, and landing KOs with a growing tree is great for surprises at a safe distance- a growing tree can also be used to punish, edge guard, ect ect.

Timber Counter is excellent, but you shouldn't ignore the stock timber entirely.

ANYWAY, for the purpose of the thread;
1321, 1322, and 2322 would be the best

I also run an anti-Shiek set thats 2332, but that's really for specific matchups.
 

Plino

 
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#8
I'm gonna go ahead and unsticky this now that AA's project has had its initial release out for some time now, though I'll add it into the directory as a thread for custom move discussion (although we already have another older thread... hm)

@ Amazing Ampharos Amazing Ampharos , if you plan on working on future updates for you project just give me the word and I'll resticky this for the required discussion.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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#9
So with EVO using customs but only allowing the pre-sets, we need to fill up all 10 slots. Villager currently has:

1122
1322
2122
2322
1121
1112

I get a sense that, to be honest, this is pretty close to everything that's good/worth using. We could easily add in 2121, 2112, and 2111 to round out Garden with defaults on up and down specials and then maybe add a funky set like 1123 as Giant Timber seems likely to be the best non-represented custom otherwise. Do any other Villagers have any thoughts about what else might be a better decision to round out Villager's sets?
 

Antonykun

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#10
I think now more than before Villager really needs a Pocket Plus set for ness. The safety of knowing that as long as you snuff that second jump, you'll always gimp Ness, is FAR more valuable than Pocket's boost of power and Garden's disjoint.
 
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#11
I'd also argue Pocket Plus would be handy against those characters that can't pull another item when you have it in your Pocket, since for the most part said item is less for damage and more for disruption. Just how far is the Pocket Plus range, anyway?
 

Antonykun

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#12
I'd also argue Pocket Plus would be handy against those characters that can't pull another item when you have it in your Pocket, since for the most part said item is less for damage and more for disruption. Just how far is the Pocket Plus range, anyway?
Literally a quarter of Final destination. Easily villager's longest disjointed hitbox in the game.
 

SoniCraft

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#13
I don't see why we can't just use regular Pocket against Ness. It's big enough, and villager has too many other more potentially useful custom moves to be implemented into more sets. I don't think we should use a slot for pocket plus. And what if someone likes timber counter against ness, and someone else likes standard timber? Then we have two sets with pocket plus, something I don't think is necessary.
 

Beanie!

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#14
After experimentation... my favorites go to:

1322
1321
and 1323

Pocket Plus is surprisingly neat, and has nice range. I like Pushy Lloid, could open up more opportunities for possible pocket drops/combos? Super Timber might compliment Pushy Lloid pretty well in some circumstances, like perhaps planting Super Timber, chopping, tossing out a Pushy Lloid, then chopping (mostly for offstage play)? Dunno, Super Timber might be too slow for that. If I did the math right it takes 4 seconds to completely go through a Super Timber cycle, and that's only if you do the whole process in succession. Of course running up with the Axe is an option, I'm gonna test it out some more today.
 

Pepperz

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#15
I've been testing some customs and the build...

1312

Has really stood out for me. It's great for off stage gimps and on stage control. Counter timber holds every rush down character at bay for the chance at bowling ball them to death. Air mobility is more valuable to me than explosive balloons. His up special balloons was already considered top tier. No need to get way from that. Push rockets is great defensive tool and a great combo starter. If you want to see the true potential of the build, I'll gladly show anybody that interested. It really is OP.
 

John12346

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#16
I don't really use Villager, but I do see that there's a general consensus of Extreme Balloon Trip over the other two, which are both also extremely solid choices from my experience(One is the biggest, most maneuverable recovery in the game, and the other is massive and also has a hitbox). What's the rationale for that?
 
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Player-1

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#17
the default has bad mobility and is easily edge guarded, the other is limited and locks you into into free fall in a lot of positions.

edit: Also, to fill up the rest of the slots, I think Villager's best are already up there and don't really see much of a reason to use anything else in singles, might be nice to think about doubles.
 
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Plino

 
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#18
Agreed, we've pretty much got Villager's optimal sets for singles covered. For the sake of variety though, I do think that 1323 or 2323 would be somewhat viable. Garden, onstage Extreme Balloons, and Pushy Lloid are mainly there for Super Timber support; they cover opponents options and relieve pressure, allowing you opportunities to go through Super's time-consuming stages.

I will freely admit that I am not too knowledgeable when it comes to doubles, but I would imagine that 1121, 1122, 3121, or 3122 would be okay. Standard Lloid over Pushy Lloid so accidentally stuffing your teammate isn't as likely, one set with standard Timber and the other with Timber Counter depending on your teammate (though most of Villager's best teammates aren't overly ground-game dependent, right?). The last two sets have Pocket Plus for projectile support I guess.

I don't really use Villager, but I do see that there's a general consensus of Extreme Balloon Trip over the other two, which are both also extremely solid choices from my experience(One is the biggest, most maneuverable recovery in the game, and the other is massive and also has a hitbox). What's the rationale for that?
Standard is somewhat easy for the opponent to deal with and doesn't help with Villager's juggling weakness. Balloon high jump is restricting and puts you into helpless regardless whether or not you've used the move to its fullest for the situation you're in. The hitbox isn't anything to write home about. Meanwhile Extreme gives you another option for stage control with onstage balloons, makes you really REALLY hard to safely edgeguard (or edgeguard at all) and is an unconventional but viable (in my opinion) option for netting KOs off of the upper blastline. You have the strong hit at your disposal at whatever point in the move you need it, which isn't the case with high jump.

Also restickied.
 

Pepperz

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#19
We don't need 5 of the 6 sets with the same move. Explosive balloons are cool and all but balloon trip is better. Way better mobility. You can come from the bottom of the level and still sweet spot the ledge. If you explode the balloons you'll hand to wait till you're falling down before you can grab the ledge, leaving you a sitting duck.

Push rocket is better than regular lloid. It leads into combos more and allows you to use the grab game as well. Something you can't get with regular lloid.

Both parts of the villagers game is being looked at. Gimps and grabs. I'll be willing to show anybody the build if you want to check out the potential. 1312
 
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Plino

 
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#20
May I ask why Trip Sapling is good?
For one it RUINS Axe completely. OoS Axe is a thing against laggier moves and kills much earlier than other OOS options villager has. Axe also loses its shield breaking capability (Tree growth into Axe)
Timbers growth potential is completely and utterly ruined as well, doing next to no knockback on a successful hit.
And let's say you DO force the opponent into a trip scenario, you're usually just gambling on their getup option in order to get an actual punish.
Plus, I'd be much more scared running over a sapling set up to only need one unit of water..

Like, if there's something I'm missing that justifies losing all the potential of tree and ruining all its properties other than the fact it can trip then by all means tell me.
@ Mtn64 Mtn64 While the loss of a KOing Axe is pretty bad (it's one of Villager's valuable few fast KO options), the increased option control justifies this imo.

If you force an opponent into tripping then you should have a much better game plan than "gambling on their getup option". If they roll, they're going to roll away from the sapling so they don't risk a retrip. This is very readable and you can act with a pivot grab. Even more, if you're REALLY playing around the trip, then you can get free FSmashes in by predicting the trip itself. Counter sapling sets up reads and rollchases. Plus, it can't be shielded. There is nothing your opponent can do about a counter sapling aside from play around it more defensively than they normally would. Meanwhile, even with a half-watered standard sapling, they can just play around it, but still play aggressively. If you try forcing them into it, you still have to water it again. A half-watered counter sapling doesn't present as much risk to them as a counter sapling does.

@ Darklink401 Darklink401 Extreme Balloons aren't bad... The vertical distance Jump has over Extreme is negligible when you consider Extreme lets you go in as deep as you need to for gimps. If you're using Jump because you want to be safe with your gimps then you're just going in way too deep, deeper than you need to.

Jump's hitboxes aren't anything special. Relying on them for stage spikes is... well, using a custom solely for stage spikes is poor justification imo. That and it isn't a versatile stage spike compared to other character's BAirs. They can attack, then jump, then recover. You HAVE to sac your second jump if you want to stage spike when you're using Jump.

Jump is really terrible OoS too. I mean, unless you're getting the KO for sure, which is really unlikely to happen, you're ending up with a massive frame disadvantage. It isn't like Mario's Super Jump Punch or Dolphin Slash. They're good options OoS because the lesser has a safe launch angle along with great KBG on the last hit, while the latter has a combination of good angles, good damage, and good KBG/BKB values. Meanwhile Jump has 10%, which isn't bad, but it only has 40g. You're essentially setting yourself up to be juggled. Which, as a Villager, its just like... why...

Idk, if Jump suits your playstyle better then go for it! But it's really tempting to say that Extreme Balloons are just flat-out better in all relevant situations than Jump.

(I wrote all of that up in that one patch-nerf-fear-mongering thread but ended up decided to post it here)

(that means you guys should reply here if you do end up doing so)

Edit: @ P Pepperz

Extreme Balloons provide all of the necessary mobility and range that standard trip does. You will rarely if ever need to go so close to the lower blastlines that Trip would be better than Extreme. Additionally, Extreme has offensive presence that makes it harder to get gimped or edgeguarded yourself.
 
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Pepperz

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#21
@ P Pepperz

Extreme Balloons provide all of the necessary mobility and range that standard trip does. You will rarely if ever need to go so close to the lower blastlines that Trip would be better than Extreme. Additionally, Extreme has offensive presence that makes it harder to get gimped or edgeguarded yourself.
I disagree that it provides the same. You are over looking gimps. Villagers nair is such a great edge guarding tool. Carry them off stage like a champ. Bringing them to the depths that nobody can go but villager. You can't play off stage nowhere near as much as you can with balloon trip.
 

Mtn64

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#22
I disagree that it provides the same. You are over looking gimps. Villagers nair is such a great edge guarding tool. Carry them off stage like a champ. Bringing them to the depths that nobody can go but villager. You can't play off stage nowhere near as much as you can with balloon trip.
Extreme can still make it from blastzone. Or very close from blastzone.
Its also possible to space the explosion so your burst stops right at the ledge. Having trouble with it just means you aren't spacing the distance well.
Also, I've actually been able to gimp and even kill at 130~ % with the explosions, and I've gotten some nasty stage spikes as well.
Don't overlook extreme because it doesn't provide the same recovery, it helps in all ways villager.

On a side note, I can see extreme being a poor choice against Mario and Doc because of how easy it is to cape during free fallfall, so we should still include one without it.
 
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Pepperz

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#23
Extreme can still make it from blastzone. Or very close from blastzone.
Its also possible to space the explosion so your burst stops right at the ledge. Having trouble with it just means you aren't spacing the distance well.
Also, I've actually been able to gimp and even kill at 130~ % with the explosions, and I've gotten some nasty stage spikes as well.
Don't overlook extreme because it doesn't provide the same recovery, it helps in all ways villager.

On a side note, I can see extreme being a poor choice against Mario and Doc because of how easy it is to cape during free fallfall, so we should still include one without it.
I'm not over looking extreme. It just doesn't fit my playstyle. While you may look at killing people and gimping them at 130% , I gimp people mostly 20%-50%. Balloon trip is about getting back on stage fast to regain those invincibile frames when you touch the ledge. Majority of the people are vastly over looking the balloon trip for extreme for it offensive capability and not they're stage recovery.



What will it take for me to get my 1312 custom build on the list? I'll play anybody to prove it's viability. I'll just hate for this to be a popularity contest on why certain customs get put in over others.

Honestly, I would never go to evo if my custom set is not in the list or they don't allow us to upload certain builds mid tournament. It's unfair for the unspoken people to be forced into playing somebody else's customs and not they're own.
 

Antonykun

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#24
I'm not over looking extreme. It just doesn't fit my playstyle. While you may look at killing people and gimping them at 130% , I gimp people mostly 20%-50%. Balloon trip is about getting back on stage fast to regain those invincibile frames when you touch the ledge. Majority of the people are vastly over looking the balloon trip for extreme for it offensive capability and not they're stage recovery.



What will it take for me to get my 1312 custom build on the list? I'll play anybody to prove it's viability. I'll just hate for this to be a popularity contest on why certain customs get put in over others.

Honestly, I would never go to evo if my custom set is not in the list or they don't allow us to upload certain builds mid tournament. It's unfair for the unspoken people to be forced into playing somebody else's customs and not they're own.
You gimp at 20%?! Share us your secrets, senpai.
 

John12346

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#25
Pepperz, all you need to do is explain why there needs to be a set involving Balloon Trip over Extreme Balloon Trip. From what I can tell the Villagers seem to agree 1322 is an important set to include, which is what you want but with Extreme Balloons over normal ones, so I'd say you're almost there already. Someone cited the Mario/Doc matchup, and that's a pretty viable concern, but you can take it a step further and discuss how the autosnap properties of normal balloons can come in handy for certain matchups where being edgeguarded by a big hitbox or armor may be dangerous(Rosalina Dair? Kong Cyclone? Another Villager's Timber?).

And of course, as you mentioned, if you go SUPER deep for edgeguards with Nairs and turnips then maybe normal Balloon Trip is a necessity, although in this case there are very few ranges where normal Balloons can recover and Extreme Balloons cannot, but still.
 
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Darklink401

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#26
@ Mtn64 Mtn64 While the loss of a KOing Axe is pretty bad (it's one of Villager's valuable few fast KO options), the increased option control justifies this imo.

If you force an opponent into tripping then you should have a much better game plan than "gambling on their getup option". If they roll, they're going to roll away from the sapling so they don't risk a retrip. This is very readable and you can act with a pivot grab. Even more, if you're REALLY playing around the trip, then you can get free FSmashes in by predicting the trip itself. Counter sapling sets up reads and rollchases. Plus, it can't be shielded. There is nothing your opponent can do about a counter sapling aside from play around it more defensively than they normally would. Meanwhile, even with a half-watered standard sapling, they can just play around it, but still play aggressively. If you try forcing them into it, you still have to water it again. A half-watered counter sapling doesn't present as much risk to them as a counter sapling does.

@ Darklink401 Darklink401 Extreme Balloons aren't bad... The vertical distance Jump has over Extreme is negligible when you consider Extreme lets you go in as deep as you need to for gimps. If you're using Jump because you want to be safe with your gimps then you're just going in way too deep, deeper than you need to.

Jump's hitboxes aren't anything special. Relying on them for stage spikes is... well, using a custom solely for stage spikes is poor justification imo. That and it isn't a versatile stage spike compared to other character's BAirs. They can attack, then jump, then recover. You HAVE to sac your second jump if you want to stage spike when you're using Jump.

Jump is really terrible OoS too. I mean, unless you're getting the KO for sure, which is really unlikely to happen, you're ending up with a massive frame disadvantage. It isn't like Mario's Super Jump Punch or Dolphin Slash. They're good options OoS because the lesser has a safe launch angle along with great KBG on the last hit, while the latter has a combination of good angles, good damage, and good KBG/BKB values. Meanwhile Jump has 10%, which isn't bad, but it only has 40g. You're essentially setting yourself up to be juggled. Which, as a Villager, its just like... why...

Idk, if Jump suits your playstyle better then go for it! But it's really tempting to say that Extreme Balloons are just flat-out better in all relevant situations than Jump.

(I wrote all of that up in that one patch-nerf-fear-mongering thread but ended up decided to post it here)

(that means you guys should reply here if you do end up doing so)

Edit: @ P Pepperz

Extreme Balloons provide all of the necessary mobility and range that standard trip does. You will rarely if ever need to go so close to the lower blastlines that Trip would be better than Extreme. Additionally, Extreme has offensive presence that makes it harder to get gimped or edgeguarded yourself.
IDK dude, like, I tried out the extreme balloon trip, and while the balloon stage spikes and safety are appreciated, and the horizontal distance is good, the vertical distance is pretty bad....well....I say bad, but I guess it's just bad vertical distance compared to the other two customs xD
 
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#27
Concerning gimping with extreme trip, if it doesn't look like you can make it back with the flight alone(you have a projectile aerial how deep are we talking here?), pop both balloons with A and Villager gets a solid vertical boost. In terms of recovering normally I don't see a lot of situations where Villager would start extreme trip so late that he'd need to pop the balloons to make it and lose his edge snap, and thanks to the explosions opponents have a tougher time edge guarding you in the first place.

I dunno. It seems like a straight upgrade to me.
 

Darklink401

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#28
Concerning gimping with extreme trip, if it doesn't look like you can make it back with the flight alone(you have a projectile aerial how deep are we talking here?), pop both balloons with A and Villager gets a solid vertical boost. In terms of recovering normally I don't see a lot of situations where Villager would start extreme trip so late that he'd need to pop the balloons to make it and lose his edge snap, and thanks to the explosions opponents have a tougher time edge guarding you in the first place.

I dunno. It seems like a straight upgrade to me.
Wait he goes up if you pop them?
 

Plino

 
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#29
You... didn't know this? We've been mentioning this every time someone brings up Extreme's supposedly inferior recovery.

When both balloons get popped (which you can do yourself by pressing A, once for each balloon or a quick double tap), you get launched into the air a distance equal to AT LEAST like 3/4 of Jump's height.
 

Darklink401

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#30
You... didn't know this? We've been mentioning this every time someone brings up Extreme's supposedly inferior recovery.

When both balloons get popped (which you can do yourself by pressing A, once for each balloon or a quick double tap), you get launched into the air a distance equal to AT LEAST like 3/4 of Jump's height.
I did NOT know this

This changes EVERYTHING and I am now questioning what is reality.
 
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#31
I've recently grown fond of EBT (U2). Like many of you, I was reluctant to get rid of one of the most reliable recovery options, but noticed when you go against top level players, they're always going for those gimps. If you're stage tech is off, you're in for a bad time. I've found Explosive Balloon to be incredibly safe from gimps, even resulting in kills. And I have yet to fall short of recovering, making it a better recovery option than the majority of other characters. The extra vertical burst once you pop both balloons is very helpful. Even when the balloons dispatch from you, they're still hit boxes (serve as a counter almost) that can be activated by pressing up b again. So yeah I think U2 is better overall.

I do agree with an earlier post that n3 should be considered for anti-ness, but to make a whole slot for one character seems inconvenient. I think super timber is a move more suitable for doubles, 1323 is a good set for dubs.

But back to 1v1, it seems like each default move has one truly viable alternative. N1/n2, s1/s3, u1/U2, d1/d2.

1112
1122
1322
1121
1312
1321
1311

These are the 7 desirable sets, with default pocket. Each of these sets with Garden pocket brings the total to 14. So we must decide which 4 are the least popular.
 
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Darklink401

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Yuki_Hirako
#32
I've recently grown fond of EBT (U2). Like many of you, I was reluctant to get rid of one of the most reliable recovery options, but noticed when you go against top level players, they're always going for those gimps. If you're stage tech is off, you're in for a bad time. I've found Explosive Balloon to be incredibly safe from gimps, even resulting in kills. And I have yet to fall short of recovering, making it a better recovery option than the majority of other characters. The extra vertical burst once you pop both balloons is very helpful. Even when the balloons dispatch from you, they're still hit boxes (serve as a counter almost) that can be activated by pressing up b again. So yeah I think U2 is better overall.

I do agree with an earlier post that n3 should be considered for anti-ness, but to make a whole slot for one character seems inconvenient. I think super timber is a move more suitable for doubles, 1323 is a good set for dubs.

But back to 1v1, it seems like each default move has one truly viable alternative. N1/n2, s1/s3, u1/U2, d1/d2.

1112
1122
1322
1121
1312
1321
1311

These are the 7 desirable sets, with default pocket. Each of these sets with Garden pocket brings the total to 14. So we must decide which 4 are the least popular.
I'd be using garden pocket, EBT, pushy lloid, and timber counter XP

I feel being able to deal 10 damage from an invincible attack is cool.
 

Pepperz

Smash Cadet
Joined
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67
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#33
It happens a lot more than you think. The gimps. Diddy becomes easier to edge guard. Go after him and nair. Every diddy player knows playing off the stage away from the hoohaw antics is a *****. A simple nair to nair to nair constantly bringing him closer and closer to the bottom of the map. He can't up special back on stage. Same with fox and falcon. Very gimpable characters that if you catch them in the air, you can bring them to their death down below. Characters with very predictable or non hitting up specials get eaten up alive off the stage. Rosalina and luma is a other person that is fun to play off stage. Same with Mac.

That's what it's called, autosnapping. A very overlooked property. In a game where speed and a fraction of a milli second can determind the winner. Invincibility frames are very important to anybody with a great edge game. It can lead into trumps more which puts them at a disadvantage for they won't have invincibility frames the second time around on grabbing ledge. Either bair them or get back on stage quick and bowling ball them when they try to get back.

In a game dominated by speed, y'all are slowing down villager with those extremes.

But this is all theorizing about what's "better" for the character instead of what's best for the individual. I'm willing to play anybody to get my build on the list. If me playing the character to show you what it can do is not good enough, this list is riged for popularity instead of practical use.
 

Darklink401

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Yuki_Hirako
#34
It happens a lot more than you think. The gimps. Diddy becomes easier to edge guard. Go after him and nair. Every diddy player knows playing off the stage away from the hoohaw antics is a *****. A simple nair to nair to nair constantly bringing him closer and closer to the bottom of the map. He can't up special back on stage. Same with fox and falcon. Very gimpable characters that if you catch them in the air, you can bring them to their death down below. Characters with very predictable or non hitting up specials get eaten up alive off the stage. Rosalina and luma is a other person that is fun to play off stage. Same with Mac.

That's what it's called, autosnapping. A very overlooked property. In a game where speed and a fraction of a milli second can determind the winner. Invincibility frames are very important to anybody with a great edge game. It can lead into trumps more which puts them at a disadvantage for they won't have invincibility frames the second time around on grabbing ledge. Either bair them or get back on stage quick and bowling ball them when they try to get back.

In a game dominated by speed, y'all are slowing down villager with those extremes.

But this is all theorizing about what's "better" for the character instead of what's best for the individual. I'm willing to play anybody to get my build on the list. If me playing the character to show you what it can do is not good enough, this list is riged for popularity instead of practical use.
Balloon is definitely great for Villagers that rely on offstage game, while extreme is moreso for getting control in the neutral, as Ive said. Its hard to compete with the great speed and ledge trumping capabilities of Balloon high jump.

I plan to cycle through both, to see which one works best.
 
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Clutch_Captain
#35
Garden Pocket makes projectiles slight weaker than default.
It happens a lot more than you think. The gimps. Diddy becomes easier to edge guard. Go after him and nair. Every diddy player knows playing off the stage away from the hoohaw antics is a *****. A simple nair to nair to nair constantly bringing him closer and closer to the bottom of the map. He can't up special back on stage. Same with fox and falcon. Very gimpable characters that if you catch them in the air, you can bring them to their death down below. Characters with very predictable or non hitting up specials get eaten up alive off the stage. Rosalina and luma is a other person that is fun to play off stage. Same with Mac.

That's what it's called, autosnapping. A very overlooked property. In a game where speed and a fraction of a milli second can determind the winner. Invincibility frames are very important to anybody with a great edge game. It can lead into trumps more which puts them at a disadvantage for they won't have invincibility frames the second time around on grabbing ledge. Either bair them or get back on stage quick and bowling ball them when they try to get back.

In a game dominated by speed, y'all are slowing down villager with those extremes.

But this is all theorizing about what's "better" for the character instead of what's best for the individual. I'm willing to play anybody to get my build on the list. If me playing the character to show you what it can do is not good enough, this list is riged for popularity instead of practical use.
I agree with you, I think 1312 should definitely be a set. I used it for the longest time. Though with default balloon trip, Villager becomes vulnerable to gimps just like those characters you mentioned. But the EBT gives it a hitbox that makes approaching a floating Villy VERY dangerous. But it all comes down to preference.
 

Player-1

Smash Legend
Joined
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Rainbow Cruise
#36
Pepperz, you're acting like if villager can't recover anymore after going in deep for edgeguards and gimps when that's not the case. Extreme balloon trip can allow you to get back to the stage from anywhere on any legal stage. I'd definitely say EBT is better for gimping as well since it's just another hitbox your opponent has to worry about and it won't hinder you getting back to the stage after the gimping is done.
 

DtJ Hilt

Little Lizard
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#37
I live in a region where custom tournaments are commonplace, so I've had a lot of opportunities to test different setups. Few things I'd like to note before just giving lists.

Extreme Balloon Trip is quite possibly the best single recovery move in the game. Safe, mobile, reliable, threatening. There are very, very few characters that can consistently gimp the recovery. The only one that comes to mind right off the top of my head is Megaman, as he can stay out of manual detonation range and use dair to go through both balloons and spike Villager.

Trip Sapling is not always the way to go. All depends on how much you like having extra kill power vs having another zoning tool.

Pocket Plus ruins Ness, and works well against Diddy Kong. Against Ness, you shouldn't be caring about how much damage your PK Thunder/Fire is going to deal back at him. Pocketing PK Thunder is for the easy gimp, and pocketing PK Fire combos into bowling ball. Yes, regular pocket's range is is big as well, but you might as well get the extended warranty.

Pushy Lloid is good, but regular is usually better. Against characters that want to be up close but don't have ridiculously fast close range options or gap closers, Pushy Lloid is great. It's more of a mid range zoning tool. I personally like it against Rosalina, however all of the other good characters I find regular Lloid to work better for.

Garden is mediocre. Even if the opponent doesn't have a projectile, it's not worth giving up a custom setup slot, and definitely not a better option than using, hell, half of Villager's tilts/aerials/smashes.

1121
1321
1122
1322

This gives 2 setups with pushy lloid and two setups with trip sapling, for matchup purposes and pleasing the most Villagers.

Last two setups should be 3121 and 3122, for matchup purposes where pocket plus would be better.
 

Darklink401

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Yuki_Hirako
#38
I live in a region where custom tournaments are commonplace, so I've had a lot of opportunities to test different setups. Few things I'd like to note before just giving lists.

Extreme Balloon Trip is quite possibly the best single recovery move in the game. Safe, mobile, reliable, threatening. There are very, very few characters that can consistently gimp the recovery. The only one that comes to mind right off the top of my head is Megaman, as he can stay out of manual detonation range and use dair to go through both balloons and spike Villager.

Trip Sapling is not always the way to go. All depends on how much you like having extra kill power vs having another zoning tool.

Pocket Plus ruins Ness, and works well against Diddy Kong. Against Ness, you shouldn't be caring about how much damage your PK Thunder/Fire is going to deal back at him. Pocketing PK Thunder is for the easy gimp, and pocketing PK Fire combos into bowling ball. Yes, regular pocket's range is is big as well, but you might as well get the extended warranty.

Pushy Lloid is good, but regular is usually better. Against characters that want to be up close but don't have ridiculously fast close range options or gap closers, Pushy Lloid is great. It's more of a mid range zoning tool. I personally like it against Rosalina, however all of the other good characters I find regular Lloid to work better for.

Garden is mediocre. Even if the opponent doesn't have a projectile, it's not worth giving up a custom setup slot, and definitely not a better option than using, hell, half of Villager's tilts/aerials/smashes.

1121
1321
1122
1322

This gives 2 setups with pushy lloid and two setups with trip sapling, for matchup purposes and pleasing the most Villagers.

Last two setups should be 3121 and 3122, for matchup purposes where pocket plus would be better.
Only reason I go for trip sapling is that Villager has enough kill potential without the trees, but it allows Villager breathing room from the rushdows he usually struggles against.-
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Joined
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#39
So, this gets a little more complicated now, but this has been a really good discussion so far.

It seems obvious to me that we want the following sets as summarized nicely by Hilt:

1122
1322
1121
1321

This covers that in most match-ups Exploding Balloon Trip and default Pocket are best while covering the preference points between Pushy Lloid and Timber Counter, major preference points at that. Does any Villager player feel that these four sets do not warrant inclusion? If it's universally agreed that these four are good enough to use, that lets us frame it as a debate for the bottom 6.

As far as I can tell, support for side-2 and up-3 is incredibly niche; these moves don't seem independently bad to me, but I at least really struggle to imagine a good justification for taking them over Villager's other excellent options in those slots. Super Timber is a really fun move, but I haven't heard any support for it as a move with serious competitive merit so much as just being a whole lot of fun. That leaves us with Garden, Pocket Plus, and Balloon Trip to populate the bottom six slots, noting that 1111 is of course always available without consuming a slot. Garden is a distinctly marginal move, but it is strictly superior to the other two options in a lot of match-ups. Pocket Plus is optimal for only a few match-ups but is really nice in those few. Balloon Trip is arguably not worth including at all, but there are enough people who have a preference for it (rational or not) that it seems likely to cause upset feelings if it doesn't get some sets, and I can easily imagine a lot of people who aren't speaking up about it feeling the same way. How would this go for making everyone happy?

3122
3121
2121
2122
1112
1312

The downside here is that you aren't allowed to use Pushy Lloid with Pocket variants (or with default Ballon Trip if you also want default Timber), but would that be a problem in practice? It seems like for the most part this apporach would do a pretty good job of leaving no one out in the cold. Of course the decision rests with you guys, but I just thought I'd post what I'm seeing based on your arguments so far.
 
Last edited:

Pepperz

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
Messages
67
Location
Greenville, NC
#40
The meta will always lean towards faster characters. It happens all the time. Look at the top tier compared to bottom tier, the faster characters are rated higher. This is common in all smash games. Armada been mention that he's going fox cuz that's where the meta was heading. That is where I feel extreme lacks compared to balloon trip. The speed. So why are we slowing him down now. You guys are looking at the current thing of what's hot or not but the balloon trip regular will become the best one over time. Auto snap for a 2 second invincibility is great. Changes up pace.

Again, I'll challenge anybody for a custom position. If you don't accept my challenge don't worry about trying to convince me in words about extreme trip. Show me extreme is better them balloon trip and I'll show you you're wrong.
 
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