Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Peach

[Amazing Ampharos]

Welcome to the official Smashboards Standard Custom Set project. In brief, this project is designed to be a logistical solution to using custom movesets in tournaments by filling many of the in-game slots with the most popular and powerful sets for each character so they can be quickly selected without further 3ds import. This will allow tournaments with customizations on to save large amounts of time throughout the event. More details about the project's ideas and mission can be found here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-proposal-we-can-make-custom-moves-fast-easy-and-legal.379555/

Our goal here is to find out what the most popular and powerful sets are for your particular character the best way we know how: asking you the mains of this character. To be clear, we're not talking about disallowing any particular custom sets or even imposing any rules in general; we're talking about making sure the popular and powerful options are simply accessible quickly in a tournament environment as our sole mission. We need up to three critical sets that represent the best options your character has that have wide general utility and from there to fill up to slot 6 with supplemental movesets that will cover less mainstream, more match-up specific, or even teams sets. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 to allow all moves to be explored more easily in the new metagame, and slots 9 and 10 are left open for 3ds import of non-standard sets.

Please list all movesets in the order NSUD, that is neutral special, side special, up special, and down special. This four digit code will be the naming convention so players can quickly and easily identify which moveset is which.

I know for many characters the default moveset, 1111, is a powerful and useful option. However, it should not be included; the game allows default to be picked regardless of what custom options are prepared so including it does not add any additional options to players.

I further know that some characters may find six slots a large number to fill. Others may find six very limiting. Do your best to pick out the overall six most likely to be picked even if some good stuff has to be left on the table or if some more experimental sets have to be included to fill out six. Every set included is time saved in tournament when that set would be picked, and we want to make the best use we can of these slots.

I would ask that everyone please be respectful of each other's opinions; this game is young, and the metagame is still very much forming so we are likely to each perceive it differently. This project will be revisited throughout the game's lifespan and revised to properly include the most mainstream movesets at the time. What we want for now is what will be commonly selected for now, and don't worry, other options are not being discriminated against as those last two slots are left open for 3ds transfer for a reason. This first version of this project will be refined throughout the rest of the year, but I hope to have a very rough draft up and usable by December 5 so TOs who wish to use the results of this project will have something to plug in for that weekend's worth of events. Thank you for your cooperation in this project, and we look forward to making sure the most useful options are quickly available for your character under this system.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm not really a Peach main, although I do use her irregularly, so take these with the requisite amount of salt.

My preferred set:
2112 (Sleepy/default/default/Light)

Other sets I could see myself using:
3112 (Grumpy/default/default/Light)
2312 (Sleepy/Rising/default/Light)
3312 (Grumpy/Rising/default/Light)

Truthfully I'm just not sure several of her customs are any good. Her alternate up specials in particular seem booty unless I'm missing something.

EDIT: Oops, 3 is Heavy, not Light Veggie. I'll...uh, fix that.

 

[Sugar Cookie]

My moveset preference: 2212
Sleepy Toad
Flower Bomber
Parasol
Light Veggie

Sleepy Toad ~ This has high reward and high risk. The lingering hitboxes of the bubbles last a long time and may look deceptive. Even though the active frames are shortened, it will feel great if u land it. At low percents you can start a combo while at higher percents you can get the kill. Also if U use it in the air U will launch them off U.

Flower Bomber ~ The start-up for Flower Bomber seems to be even faster than Peach Bomber. it takes just a hair more than three of these to potentially break someone's shield. anyone close to you will be in danger of a huge chunk of their shield taken out. You can also start a Flower Bomber string at low percents. I think this is just really underrated. Honestly does she even need the horizontal recovery like her float is enough.

Parasol ~ Honestly this is the best. It's not super gimpable and it's actually a decent kill move. I think the height was buffed. If U have rage it's a scary oos option since it can kill around 130%. It also kills near the top pretty early. Parasol mode also plays mind games with the opponent. Also the hits connect consistantly now.

Light Veggie ~ The way it hovers is good for approuch and U can use it to cover u. It can also help gain stage control.

 

[Nocki]

Preferred: 2213
Other:
2311
2211
2313
Sleepy Toad: I just dislike the other 2, that's really the only reason.
Flower Bomber: I agree that flowers start up is shorter and that makes it feel more usable in a spontaneous sense. You also have the opportunity to react off of someone's shield with flower bomber.
Parasol: The range here is a huge vertical range, which is great and also the hit box is nice relative to the other 2 parasol types.
Light: I like light because I think it adds more opportunity for on-stage follow up. I haven't tested any of the turnip tricks with light and normal yet though. Does anyone know if they are all still executable with light?

 

[Sugar Cookie]

Preferred: 2213
Other:
2311
2211
2313
Sleepy Toad: I just dislike the other 2, that's really the only reason.
Flower Bomber: I agree that flowers start up is shorter and that makes it feel more usable in a spontaneous sense. You also have the opportunity to react off of someone's shield with flower bomber.
Parasol: The range here is a huge vertical range, which is great and also the hit box is nice relative to the other 2 parasol types.
Light: I like light because I think it adds more opportunity for on-stage follow up. I haven't tested any of the turnip tricks with light and normal yet though. Does anyone know if they are all still executable with light?

Omg someone actually agrees with me about flower bomber. This is a big surprise I honestly thought everyone was gonna put flying Bomber

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Omg someone actually agrees with me about flower bomber. This is a big surprise I honestly thought everyone was gonna put flying Bomber

I thought Flower Bomber was slow for some reason. If it's faster than default (which is already fast) then I'll have to look at it again.

It seems default Toad is generally inferior to Sleepy Toad, or at least no one here has mentioned using it. What about Grumpy Toad?

 

[Sugar Cookie]

@ ParanoidDrone i honestly think toad is as good. It's just that sleepy toad is high risk, high reward

 

[Peaches & Cake]

Sleepy Toad: it has such has reward. At low percents it gets a combo or grab set up while they're at least at 70% you could possibly get a kill. You need good timing for this since the active frames are cut. It's high risk, high reward.

Flower Bomber: It's a great damage builder or just an annoying gimmick. You can string them together at low percentages, I think about 4 depending on DI. If they DI well I think 2. Anyone close to U right next to U is in big risk of losing their shield. It's also faster which is super useful since regular Bomber is already really fast. I think it's great

Parasol: it can be a kill move and it has high distance. The distance got buffed, her recovery got buffed in general since her second jump got buffed. It can kill at laughable percents near the top. With rage it can kill at 125% and a scary oos option. It's also just a great get off me move. They also won't expect it to be so strong.

Light Veggie: It's great for approuch and stage control. U can have 3 at a time in the same time and it might take a lot of space on the stage. It's also a lingering hitbox since its hovering. I also see some interesting edge games with this.

My set will be 2212

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

From Reddit:

I like 2311 so far.

Sleepy Toad seems to be a much better counter to me so far.

Flying Peach Bomber is close to the power we're use to having with her side b. Her default feels awful (to me). I just much prefer it to default.

Default up-b definitely seems best.

Haven't tried Light Veggie but it sounds interesting.

Haven't experimented too much but I've been liking these.

- 3 upvotes

 

[byebye]

@ Amazing Ampharos could you put in the OP post the legend of the numbering?

I use sleepy toad, default booty, default parasol, and light / default veggie.

but after reading some of the guy's set. I would like to try the flower booty one.

I use light veggie vs slow characters or characters that are not campy.
default otherwise.

 

[Ice Prince]

A bit late to the party on this one, but I've found that I really am liking 1131.

I tend to like Light Parasol better if only for the extra "boost" you seem to get. After playing around with it some, I've gotten really good at timing for the open lift. It's saved me during times I know for certain Parasol would not have. Personal preference, but I've really come to prefer it to the standard.

Light Veggie is a fun thing to zone with, but I just wish they had slightly more power. I tend to just stick with regular Veggie for a decent balance and range control.

I'm just not a fan of Flying Peach Bomber. I despise that angle, although it does serve some use at least. More power and possible edge recovery in a pinch.

Never really toyed much with Toad variants. I would enjoy Sleepy Toad if it had a slightly longer frame counter. You've got to be so precise, whereas you get a bit more wiggle room with regular Toad.

 

[Ultima 3]

Neutral B
Toad: Activates counter when hit. Stalls descent. First use in the air lifts slightly. Hits a maximum of 8 times. Each hit does 2%. Maximum 16%. High knockback. KO move. Near the edge at 100%, in the centre at 150%
Sleepy Toad: Activates counter when hit. Stalls descent. First use in the air lifts very slightly. Does 3%. Puts grounded opponents to sleep. Higher the %, longer sleep lasts. Knocks back aerial opponents. KO move. KO at 220% near ledge.
Grumpy Toad: Hits a maximum of 4 times. First 2 hits do 2%, last 2 hits do 1.5% (will do 2% if hit by the 1st 2). Maximum 8%.

Side B
Peach Bomber: Flies forward medium distance. Direction can be changed just before attacking. Bounces off anything it hits. No move lag after it connects with something. When used in the air, slightly lifts. Does 10%. High knockback. KO move. Near the edge at 170%, in the centre at 220%.
Flower Bomber: Flies forward very short distance. Direction can be changed just before attacking. Bounces off anything it hits. No move lag after it connects with something. Does 4%. Gives opponents Flower status. While opponent has Flower, hitting with the move causes the flower to grow, making it last longer and inflict more damage.
Flying Peach Bomber: Flies forward while curving upwards, medium distance. Direction can be changed just before attacking. Bounces off anything it hits. No move lag after it connects with something. No landing lag. Lots of move lag when used in the air and falling. Does 12%. High knockback. KO move. Near the edge grounded at 170% and in the air at 160%, in the centre grounded at 230% and in the air at 220%. Double jump in the air at 150%.

Up B
Peach Parasol: Can be angled slightly. Glides downwards slowly. Force drop into free fall. Hits a maximum of 6 times. 1st hit does 3%. 2nd-5th hit does 1%. Final hit does 4%. Maximum 11%. KO move. In the air at 100% (double jump height), on the ground at 220%.
Parasol High Jump: Non-attacking. Goes high into the air. Can be angled slightly. Will free fall immediately after reaching max height.
Light Parasol: Non-attacking. Jumps a short distance. Opening parasol propels you upwards. Can be opened a maximum of 4 times. Every parasol opening shortens glide time. Can be angled greatly. Can go very high if maximum parasol openings are used. Only glide for a short time before free falling. Glide time shortens number of parasol openings.

Down B
Vegetable: Randomly pulls a faced turnip:
Smile 5-12% =)
Circle Eyes 5-12% O.O
Line Eyes 5-12% -_-
Carrot/T Eyes 5-12% 1.1
Upward Curve Eyes 5-12% ^o^
Wink 9-16% ;o Sudden Death KO move near edge.
Dot Eyes 15-22% KO move. Near edge at 200%, in the centre Sudden Death KO move.
Stitch Face 26-33% =_= KO move. Near edge at 140%, in the centre at 180%.
Chance to pull out Mr Saturn or Bob-omb.
Light Veggie: Randomly pulls a faced turnip. Moves slowly but travels long distance. When thrown in the air, travels straight before falling slowly:
Smile 2-6% =)
Circle Eyes 2-6% O.O
Line Eyes 2-6% -_-
Carrot/T Eyes 2-6% 1.1
Upward Curve Eyes 2-6% ^.^
Wink 5-9% ;o
Dot Eyes 10-14%
Stitch Face 20-24% =_= KO move. Near edge at 250%, in the centre Sudden Death KO move.
Heavy Veggie: Lag pulling out a turnip. Turnips don't go very far. Fall fast. High Knockback:
Smile 9-14% =)
Circle Eyes 9-14% O.O
Line Eyes 9-14% -_-
Carrot/T Eyes 9-14% 1.1
Upward Curve Eyes 9-14% ^.^
Wink 12-17% ;o Sudden Death KO move near edge.
Dot Eyes 17-23% KO move. Near edge at 200%, in the centre Sudden Death KO move.
Stitch Face 31-36% =_= KO move. Near edge at 120%, in the centre at 170%.

Sleepy Toad is great. Sleep chance is nice to have over the regular counter.
Flower Bomber helps you rack up damage fast early as it's spam able as heck, constant shield pressure. Flying Bomber has power and could possibly be used to help recovery (beware when missing however, long falling lag, no landing lag though)
Peach Parasol is good and gets the job done, but if you are good at it, Light Parasol is superior in every way.
Light Veggie gives you some space control and makes it easy to catch and re use. Downside to veggie customs is no Bob-Bomb or Mr Saturn chance.

So 2211
2311
2212
2312

But if you're goody to it, use Light Parasol, as it is the superior recovery.

 

[Takehiko]

The ones that I really like are:
2312 (For aerial bases opponents, so that it's easy to chase and punish.)
2121 (This one for basic matches.)

• In the basic one, I've put high jump parasol because of personal preference against the regular brella.
• Sleepy Toad is kept because of it's brokeness (Free Fsmashes)
• After playing games with Nabbit and a D3 player, I feel that Light veggie is only good is certain MU's where you might get zoned by certain projectiles. Gordos being a Key advantage.
-ATLTeemo out

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Peach's current sets in the project are:

2212
2312
3212
3312
2211
2311

We have four more possible slots to fill for EVO sets, and we might want to revise these (They seem like good Peach sets to me, but we are limited to 10 and understanding is always developing).

The main solid move I've seen on Peach that is currently excluded is Up-3; you can open-close more than four times if you're fast on the inputs and get insane height. I saw it done like 7 times in a row with incredibly fast inputs yesterday; I think it just has a timer for how long you have the parasol open and you can boost as much as you want until that timer runs out. You can go from pixels above the bottom blast zone to the ledge on every stage with this move if you are technical enough, and when you don't need that much height, this move is just plain tricky as a recovery.

Flying Peach Bomber is also seriously an incredibly strong move.

So my sense is that 2331 and 2332 deserve slots; I don't know how you guys feel about fleshing out her movesets in general. Side special seems like the most important decision point on her really; it's not a simple matter to eliminate moves here at all. We have until mid-March (let's say the 17th) to sort this out which is a nice chunk of time at least.

 

[Pretty Princess]

I think there should be at least one set that uses default Side-B. It's the middle ground between the other two in terms of damage, and has the best horizontal range. In my experience, it's a good horizontal punish tool for when you aren't holding a turnip, don't want to throw it just yet, or need the higher knockback. (it can also be a good finisher!)

Up B 1 is great offensively, and does the job just fine when recovering. Peach doesn't really go deep for kills, so I can't see myself ever using either of the other two. You can mix up your d-tilt and d-throw follow-ups, reach higher to finish attack strings, as well as net some sweet off the top kills. I don't think it's worth exchanging that offensive option for a better (superfluous imo), more unpredictable, yet fairly technical recovery.

Neutral B isn't terribly important, but I prefer Sleepy Toad just for the High Risk/High Reward exchange.

I have nothing to add about Down B that hasn't already been said, but I generally prefer default's trajectory, speed, and damage.

So, overall, my preferred set is 2111. Naturally, I think that should be an option, for whatever it's worth. I think you have most of the bases covered so far, so adding some Up B 3 sets could cater to those who prefer it, since it's still a good move.

 

[Meru.]

Some bits of info!

Toad:

Sleepy Toad's frame data is probably AWFUL. It takes longer to come out, has considerably more ending lag, and it probably stays out for a shorter time than default (not very sure about the duration though)

Bomber:

I can confirm that Flower Bomber has a faster start-up than the other Bombers. Uair spike > Flower Bomber combos (although it's pretty tight) whereas the other Bombers don't.

Flying Bomber has a kind of frame where it will autocancel. If you land before this frame activates, you will suffer ending lag. This will usually happen on platforms that are too high. However, fortunately you can land on most platforms from the ground without any lag whatsoever.

Parasol:

Light Parasol actually recovers higher than High Parasol, although it will take longer. The actual Up B doesn't not have any hitbox at all: you are completely vulnerable when doing Up B. The only hitbox it has is when you open the parasol. Also, you fall a bit faster than normally when the parasol is open. You don't seem to fall faster when you fast fall though. By the way, the horizontal recovery on this thing is surprisingly good. This is a very interesing custom, but I'm not sure how gimpable it is.

Turnips:

Contrary to popular belief, I can confirm that Light Turnip plucks are not any faster than regular ones at all. The plucking speed is exactly the same. The hitstun of the turnips is decreased, but somehow many combos still seem to work pretty well, or are even easier (stuff like turnip > dash attack). Light turnip throws have more range than regular turnip because the turnips fall slower. One Smash throw covers about half of Final Destination.

--------

I have messed around customs a lot , but unfortunately I have never used them in a match yet. I'm still not sure what customs I would like to use yet, but if i would make a top 3 out of every move it would be something like this:

Toad 2
Sleepy 1
Grumpy 3

Frankly I'm indifferent about Toad because they are not good because counters are too unsafe in this game. Sleepy may have better reward, but it is less reliable because of how awfully slow it is. I'm probably still going to go for Sleepy because you may get some situational hitconfirms vs projectiles or something, but I'm fine with default too. Grumpy just sucks. It's her worst custom move by far. It comes out on frame 19 (slower than Fair wtf), has just as much range as Fair, has million years of lag, has no reward, hits with the sourspots more often that.... Why would you use this move ever when you have Fair?

Default 2
Flying 1
Flower 3

Flying Bomber is awesome. Does 2% more damage, more knockback and can function as a combo ender. Dair > second jump Fair won't connect anymore because they're flying too far? Use Flying Bomber! On top of that, it has NO lag on platforms which means you're safe on whiff if you manage to land on a platform. This is great because it removes Peach Bombers main weakness.

Parasol ?
High Parasol ?
Light Parasol ?

Having a better recover definitely has many benefits because it allows use to go much deeper while edgeguarding. However, I have got no clue how gimpable we actually are. I also find it a pity we lose our Dtilt > Up Bkilling combo if we use one of customs, but perhaps a more powerful edgeguarding game can compensate for that very well. I want to use the parasol vs real opponents before I make any judgement.

Default 2
Light 1
Heavy 300

I like Light beggie a little bit better because it allows for better combos, pressure and, IMO the best, it falls farther. I sometimes feel default turnips lack a bit of range, so light turnips grant me my wish. I would have to experiment more with it though. I'm fine with default too. Heavy Turnips on the other hand should die.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Sleepy Toad's frame data is probably AWFUL. It takes longer to come out, has considerably more ending lag, and it probably stays out for a shorter time than default (not very sure about the duration though)

I have no problem believing this, but I want to point out that I suspect Sleepy Toad has invincibility frames somewhere. I say this because when trying to use Sleepy Toad to counter 5-Volt's vision on the Gamer stage, it was quite easy for me to time it such that Peach took no damage but surprisingly difficult to get the counterattack window to activate. (By contrast, countering her vision with default Toad was quite easy.) My current understanding is that Sleepy Toad has a shorter valid activation window where it will spray bubbles but Peach is otherwise invincible for a bit during the move. Does this mesh with your own experience?

 

[Meru.]

I have no problem believing this, but I want to point out that I suspect Sleepy Toad has invincibility frames somewhere. I say this because when trying to use Sleepy Toad to counter 5-Volt's vision on the Gamer stage, it was quite easy for me to time it such that Peach took no damage but surprisingly difficult to get the counterattack window to activate. (By contrast, countering her vision with default Toad was quite easy.) My current understanding is that Sleepy Toad has a shorter valid activation window where it will spray bubbles but Peach is otherwise invincible for a bit during the move. Does this mesh with your own experience?

I'm pretty sure Peach is invincible during both default Toad and Sleepy Toad. Most counters have invincibility frames iirc.

 

[PhantomTriforce]

Peach is one of my secondaries and my favorite sets for her are 2321 and 2322 (I'm not sure which between normal veggie and light veggie is better).

I don't know how popular parasol high jump is, it's the custom I use for up because it allows me to go deeper down for edge guarding. However it seems like the vast majority like regular parasol so there's that.

I rarely use b and side b, so I choose sleepy toad because to me it seems like if you go off stage, do sleepy toad and some one does an aerial attack on you, it sends them back further than regular toad does. I'm not 100% sure about this though. I almost never use side b so I chose flying bomber because you could potentially catch people off guard with the different angle.

 

[TimeSmash]

I do wonder if Light Parasol could be used for easy aerial chases to get off the top kills with the open parasol hitbox--definitely something worth testing

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Peach is one of my secondaries and my favorite sets for her are 2321 and 2322 (I'm not sure which between normal veggie and light veggie is better).

I don't know how popular parasol high jump is, it's the custom I use for up because it allows me to go deeper down for edge guarding. However it seems like the vast majority like regular parasol so there's that.

I rarely use b and side b, so I choose sleepy toad because to me it seems like if you go off stage, do sleepy toad and some one does an aerial attack on you, it sends them back further than regular toad does. I'm not 100% sure about this though. I almost never use side b so I chose flying bomber because you could potentially catch people off guard with the different angle.

If your motivation for Parasol High Jump is deep edgeguards, why not use Light Parasol (Up-3)? It can get even more height by rapidly opening and closing the parasol after you use it.

 

[PhantomTriforce]

If your motivation for Parasol High Jump is deep edgeguards, why not use Light Parasol (Up-3)? It can get even more height by rapidly opening and closing the parasol after you use it.

I'll try this out, thanks for pointing it out.

 

[Bill'sPC]

my set is 2212

Sleepy toad: the rewards is too much to pass up with the combo potential, and the occasional kill is nice

Flower bomber: the added damage for the tiny risk seems just perfect for mind games

Peach parasol: the kill potential is just way better than the other two options

Light veggie: there are so many possibilities for stage control and re-usability from one pull, let alone three makes it a great spacing tool

 

[Macchiato]

I think flower Bomber is the best. If you've seen dark peachs custom combo video it extends combos so well. I'd say that all her custom bombers are good. Here's my list

Neutral B
Toad 2
Sleepy Toad 1
Grumpy Toad 3

Side B
Peach Bomber 3
Flower Bomber 1
Flying Bomber 2

Up B
Parasol 1
High Parasol 3
Light Parasol 2

Down B
Vegetable 2
Heavy Veggie 3
Light Veggie 1

For the sets I think that half should be sleepy toad while the rest are default. For the bombers I think there should be 4 flower, 3 flying, and 3 peach bombers. For parasols default is better but light will be handy in some match ups so we should include some of those. Vegetables should be split in half with light and default.

Here are my suggested sets.

2212
1212
2232
1211
2312
2332
1311
2112
2111
1132

 

[John12346]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
2212 1212 2232 1211 2312 2332 1311 2112 2111 1132

This lineup is simply the one Macchiato posted above. I was going to suggest a lineup of:

2312 2311 2212 2211 3312 3311 3212 3211 2331 2332

based on what I had gathered from your discussions but it seems to be similar to what was already posted, with the difference of Grumpy Toad being switched out for regular 'ol Toad. I'm sure this discussion will come to a conclusion soon enough, with the only issue remaining being how to distribute Toad throughout the sets.

 

[Macchiato]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
2212 1212 2232 1211 2312 2332 1311 2112 2111 1132

This lineup is simply the one Macchiato posted above. I was going to suggest a lineup of:

2312 2311 2212 2211 3312 3311 3212 3211 2331 2332

based on what I had gathered from your discussions but it seems to be similar to what was already posted, with the difference of Grumpy Toad being switched out for regular 'ol Toad. I'm sure this discussion will come to a conclusion soon enough, with the only issue remaining being how to distribute Toad throughout the sets.

Yours is good too, but we need some default Bomber too. They're all good.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Standard Toad/Sleepy Toad, Standard Bomber/Fire Bomber and Standard Vegetable/Light Vegetable are all interchangeable depending on the MU imo (for example, Standard Toad is good for gimping characters like Ike and Link whereas Sleepy Toad is preferable in other cases).

My gut feeling is that I would choose Standard Parasol in all cases - it offers better horizontal recovery than High Jump Parasol and, more importantly, it's a medium risk/high reward KO move this time around. Parasol is a legitimate threat to people near the ceiling ESPECIALLY when Rage is activated.

Light Parasol certainly offers really really good vertical recovery but I have a couple of issues with it:

- It offers no protection in the way of a hitbox and has quite a restrictive time limit on it before it closes (and then you're in really trouble).
- You can't close it and reopen it without forcing yourself to pop up i.e. even more time before you can land onstage. It's not like it offers no landing lag either.
- A nice feature about Standard Parasol is that you can continually open and close to alter your fall speed and movement in an effort to avoid getting punished if you need to land onstage. The hitbox can also catch people as you're landing (I've even killed Dark Pit on Omega Pyrosphere on the ground at 150% with this move thanks to Rage!!!). This is something you can't do with Light Parasol since you'll either pop yourself up or the time limit will expire and you won't be able to re open it.

I feel like Heavy Vegetable could really mess with some characters recoveries at high percents but the increased knockback most of the time doesn't outweigh the weird physics and truly horrendous pull time that come with it.

 

[Macchiato]

Standard Toad/Sleepy Toad, Standard Bomber/Fire Bomber and Standard Vegetable/Light Vegetable are all interchangeable depending on the MU imo (for example, Standard Toad is good for gimping characters like Ike and Link whereas Sleepy Toad is preferable in other cases).

My gut feeling is that I would choose Standard Parasol in all cases - it offers better horizontal recovery than High Jump Parasol and, more importantly, it's a medium risk/high reward KO move this time around. Parasol is a legitimate threat to people near the ceiling ESPECIALLY when Rage is activated.

Light Parasol certainly offers really really good vertical recovery but I have a couple of issues with it:

- It offers no protection in the way of a hitbox and has quite a restrictive time limit on it before it closes (and then you're in really trouble).
- You can't close it and reopen it without forcing yourself to pop up i.e. even more time before you can land onstage which leads onto the next point...
- A nice feature about Standard Parasol is that you can continually open and close to alter your fall speed and movement in an effort to avoid getting punished if you need to land onstage. The hitbox can also catch people as you're landing (I've even killed Dark Pit on Omega Pyrosphere on the ground at 150% with this move thanks to Rage!!!). This is something you can't do with Light Parasol since you'll either pop yourself up or the time limit will expire and you won't be able to re open it.

I feel like Heavy Vegetable could really mess with some characters recoveries at high percents but the increased knockback most of the time doesn't outweigh the weird physics and truly horrendous pull time that come with it.

Flower bomber is needed, it's as good as the others. It extends combos really well and also can rack up damage fast. It's also super fast OOS and great for shield pressure. That should not be excluded and should be there as much as flying and standard. In this video, it shows how good flower bomber is starting at 0:22. In the sets I created above, it's split between the three bombers so everyone is happy.

@Dark.Pch your an active player and I believe that your going to evo. Would yew like to add your input?

 

[John12346]

As an aside, if you're going to agree with the combinations of

Toad/Sleepy Toad
All Bombers
Default Parasol
Vegetable/Light Vegetable

that gives you a total of 11 sets(1111 is one of the sets from that combination lineup and it's there by default). Two topics you're going to want to touch on are which set to exclude from the combinations, and whether or not it's okay to exclude the other Parasols completely like that.

 

[Macchiato]

As an aside, if you're going to agree with the combinations of

Toad/Sleepy Toad
All Bombers
Default Parasol
Vegetable/Light Vegetable

that gives you a total of 11 sets(1111 is one of the sets from that combination lineup and it's there by default). Two topics you're going to want to touch on are which set to exclude from the combinations, and whether or not it's okay to exclude the other Parasols completely like that.

I'd say to add one or two light parasol sets due to its amazing vertical recovery something Shes lacking in.

 

[Oracle]

The argument should really be between whether to include only 1 toad or only 1 umbrella. I feel like default umbrella adds so much that the light umbrella's tiny recovery advantage isnt enough to include over default, especially since there is such good argument for all bombers and the 2 vegetables. The frame data thread says sleepy toad has 40 active frames but says nothing about cooldown, so im not sure what to think of that yet

 

[PhantomTriforce]

The argument should really be between whether to include only 1 toad or only 1 umbrella. I feel like default umbrella adds so much that the light umbrella's tiny recovery advantage isnt enough to include over default, especially since there is such good argument for all bombers and the 2 vegetables. The frame data thread says sleepy toad has 40 active frames but says nothing about cooldown, so im not sure what to think of that yet

I wouldn't call the recovery advantage of light tiny. It's pretty significant. As for sleepy, I think it has the same cooldown as regular for longer startup.

 

[Oracle]

It's tiny compared to the advantages the additional bombers and turmips give peach, which is why those should take priority over light parasol. Also the frame data thread says the sleepy toad comes out on frame 2 but it's really messy and hard to read, so i guess that isn't accurate?

 

[PhantomTriforce]

Ok, maybe I'm wrong about Sleepy Toad (I thought it had more start up), but I still want a higher recovery option for Peach. Seems like she has too many useful customs.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'd like to make a suggestion based on my understanding...

2111, 2211, 2311, 2112, 2212, 2312
1211, 1311, 2331, 2332

The top six I feel are really important to include; this is every set with Sleepy Toad/default Parasol and all the variations of bombers and default vs Light Veggie. Those six sets are the sets that it seems like really count for Peach and that you really need access to in tournament when things get serious and you want something optimum. The next two are default Toad sets with different bombers for the crowd that wants that (I suspect anyone who is timid about using Sleepy Toad is probably super timid about Light Veggie...), and the last two are Light Parasol sets with different veggies standardized on the upward bomber. The reason for this is that Light Parasol is prioritizing recovery so it seems really likely that anyone who picks it probably wants the bomber that helps with recovery in a real way, but they very well might want either type of turnip.

Does this seem wise to you guys?

 

[gagelax]

I'd like to make a suggestion based on my understanding...

2111, 2211, 2311, 2112, 2212, 2312
1211, 1311, 2331, 2332

The top six I feel are really important to include; this is every set with Sleepy Toad/default Parasol and all the variations of bombers and default vs Light Veggie. Those six sets are the sets that it seems like really count for Peach and that you really need access to in tournament when things get serious and you want something optimum. The next two are default Toad sets with different bombers for the crowd that wants that (I suspect anyone who is timid about using Sleepy Toad is probably super timid about Light Veggie...), and the last two are Light Parasol sets with different veggies standardized on the upward bomber. The reason for this is that Light Parasol is prioritizing recovery so it seems really likely that anyone who picks it probably wants the bomber that helps with recovery in a real way, but they very well might want either type of turnip.

Does this seem wise to you guys?

Seems wise to me. Also, just noticed you lived in KCMO. I live in the area =]

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Sleepy toad and regular toad have the exact same risk, except regular toad reward is like 20% damage, and sleepy road reward is an instant kill. I see no reason to ever use regular toad..I understand it has a larger window to land and less cool down, but if I get a hard read as far as I'm concerned it's not a risk. I'd rather earn a kill for my hard read than earn some percentage.

I would never use regular toad "hoping" it hits anyway. I'm going to use it when I have a hard read, and in those situations sleepy toad would have also landed.

 

[Meru.]

Sleepy toad and regular toad have the exact same risk, except regular toad reward is like 20% damage, and sleepy road reward is an instant kill. I see no reason to ever use regular toad..I understand it has a larger window to land and less cool down, but if I get a hard read as far as I'm concerned it's not a risk. I'd rather earn a kill for my hard read than earn some percentage.

I would never use regular toad "hoping" it hits anyway. I'm going to use it when I have a hard read, and in those situations sleepy toad would have also landed.

I want to use Default Toad over Sleepy Toad. Default Toad is much stronger in this game than in previous versions, it can kill under 120% easily. Knockback is really not its problem. Toad's main problem is that it comes out slow and is unsafe on whiff, which is why its used only situationally. Sleepy Toad only makes Toad's weakness worse. Now I don't mind Sleepy Toad's extended cooldown all that much... it's the the start-up that irks me. I'm pretty sure it's at least frame 15 (if not frame 20, wouldn't be surprised if they just doubled it). That's really, really awful. Even if you get a hard read it's still hard to land because of the slow start-up. I also wouldn't say Toad and Sleepy Toad have the exact same risk when the latter is much slower.

Anyway, I think Default is better but frankly I wouldn't mind either of them since I think they both suck and I never use any Toad. plus I dont live the US anyway

I'd like to make a suggestion based on my understanding...

2111, 2211, 2311, 2112, 2212, 2312
1211, 1311, 2331, 2332

The top six I feel are really important to include; this is every set with Sleepy Toad/default Parasol and all the variations of bombers and default vs Light Veggie. Those six sets are the sets that it seems like really count for Peach and that you really need access to in tournament when things get serious and you want something optimum. The next two are default Toad sets with different bombers for the crowd that wants that (I suspect anyone who is timid about using Sleepy Toad is probably super timid about Light Veggie...), and the last two are Light Parasol sets with different veggies standardized on the upward bomber. The reason for this is that Light Parasol is prioritizing recovery so it seems really likely that anyone who picks it probably wants the bomber that helps with recovery in a real way, but they very well might want either type of turnip.

Does this seem wise to you guys?

I advise against Light Parasol. This move is pretty ass. I have used it myself and I have other Peaches used it vs. me, and it's just not good. This move recovers super slow and screams PLEASE GIMP ME WITH EVERY AERIAL YOU HAVE. For recovery, high parasol is a million times better because of how fast it recovers.

2111 also really feels like a waste of slot... oh well.

 

[PhantomTriforce]

I advise against Light Parasol. This move is pretty ***. I have used it myself and I have other Peaches used it vs. me, and it's just not good. This move recovers super slow and screams PLEASE GIMP ME WITH EVERY AERIAL YOU HAVE. For recovery, high parasol is a million times better because of how fast it recovers.

I agree. For a high recovery choice, I think Parasol High Jump might be better because it is quicker.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I want to use Default Toad over Sleepy Toad. Default Toad is much stronger in this game than in previous versions, it can kill under 120% easily. Knockback is really not its problem. Toad's main problem is that it comes out slow and is unsafe on whiff, which is why its used only situationally. Sleepy Toad only makes Toad's weakness worse. Now I don't mind Sleepy Toad's extended cooldown all that much... it's the the start-up that irks me. I'm pretty sure it's at least frame 15 (if not frame 20, wouldn't be surprised if they just doubled it). That's really, really awful. Even if you get a hard read it's still hard to land because of the slow start-up. I also wouldn't say Toad and Sleepy Toad have the exact same risk when the latter is much slower.

Anyway, I think Default is better but frankly I wouldn't mind either of them since I think they both suck and I never use any Toad. plus I dont live the US anyway



I advise against Light Parasol. This move is pretty ***. I have used it myself and I have other Peaches used it vs. me, and it's just not good. This move recovers super slow and screams PLEASE GIMP ME WITH EVERY AERIAL YOU HAVE. For recovery, high parasol is a million times better because of how fast it recovers.

2111 also really feels like a waste of slot... oh well.

There is no way regular toad kills at 120% unless your opponent has bad DI.

I think our definitions of hard read are different. For me it means I know what move my opponent will do next and where he's going to do it to almost complete certainty. . So I press B a half second before he does it. If it only takes 15 frames for the move to come out it's a guaranteed hit as long as I use it a half second before.

I don't think the two toads have the same risk in all scenarios, I think that when you have a hard read, the risk becomes equal, as in there is no risk at all. I would agree that in all other situations, the regular toad is much less risky.

When I say hard read I''m talking about you are 99.9% sure what your opponent is about to do. I can do this at least once a stock against most players, just not against the really really good players. But against most tourney players a hard read is easy for me to get once a match, so as a personal play-style this move is risk free to use in those situations.