Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Fox

[EndlessRain]

Okay... But with regard to Barrel Roll specifically, in my experience the extra 10% from B2 and especially B1 is easier to find than the 10% from B3, and it makes a serious difference for upB3, since you just want all the damage as fast as you can get it. Do you find that you don't miss the extra kill speed the B1/B2+upB3 combo gives you?

 

[SAHunterMech]

It's true that B1 and B2 are easier to hit with, I just think the horrible endlag means that you'll get damage to accumulate slower overall since you just can't spam them anymore. I've found that throwing in B3 unexpectedly and accurately is all you need to get it to connect. You don't NEED to spam it, to put yourself at risk, it feels safer in that regard.

I do hear you though, about wanting to just get damage up fast for Barrel Roll to kill, that's a good tactic. At the end of the day, B3 is just my jam. I prefer the feel, the fact that it's a bigger deal for the opponent to make sure to dodge them, the potential combo setup, etc.

 

[EndlessRain]

Yeah, except it has crazy startup so you're still at risk.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm not understanding why people don't like Up-B 3. It's faster startup than Up-B 1, making it actually a pretty good out of shield option that can cover both in front and behind Fox easily. I would take Up-B 3 over Up-B 1 any day simply because its out of shield utility is actually good.

The set I like personally is 3132. I thing Charge Blaster has great potential for covering landings or edgeguarding for KOs as well as whiff punishes which can definitely occur with Fox's high mobility. Default SideB is the most practical overall for recovery and getting back to neutral. Up-B 3 as stated is actually a really practical punish tool and still a pretty good recovery move. And Big Reflector is here just because the other ones are just terrible, while windbox gimps are potentially a thing.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Yeah, Fox shouldn't be using a ton of blaster in general in this game in my experience. Neutral 3, in mid-range neutral, forces a lot of respect. It does good shield damage and, if it does happen to hit, really pays off big with nice damage and a launch which gives Fox a good, advantaged position. Forcing respect there isn't about necessarily hitting (it's nice if you do) so much as forcing your opponent to play around it. The other two blasters are easier to hit with but don't really pay off in any kind of a situation so they're pretty much strictly annoyance moves. Annoyance moves definitely have a place, and neutral 2 has the obvious use against recovering opponents (that kind of move has always been really good at stealing double jumps), but I generally find moves that force respect are more powerful than moves that annoy since the annoyance moves don't really force opponents to change anything about how they play in anything but extremely slow paced situations. I don't really see Fox going to his special moves if he just really needs a hit anyway; Fox's normals are very good at hitting, and Fox is more than mobile enough to get in position to hit with normals. His specials are more his extra options to get a little extra in the right situations, and in that, I don't see a problem in having two slower options together especially since the situations they cover are pretty much completely different.

Also, honestly, this is really character specific but neutral 3 bullies my Luma which makes blocking it suck for me (my shield often fails to protect Luma if Luma is in front of me). Rosalina is really floaty too so jumping over it is often a poor option; you use neutral 3 at me and I'm often forced to use Gravitational Pull which is not a fast move and generally creates situations in which Fox will have as easy of a time as possible running in. There's also the fact that, if you don't pack neutral 3, I'm probably going to run Guardian Luma since Gravitational Pull doesn't really help against your other lasers so packing neutral 3 removes a general purpose option for me to protect Luma in a very roundabout way. That's super specific stuff that only applies to Fox v Rosalina, but there are significant match-up specific factors there in which neutral 3 is specifically good against Rosalina's unique mechanics.

Either way, I think I'm going to go with what Protom posted for Fox... which is just replacing 1121 with 1332. I don't think most Fox players are going to be super bothered by the difference between down-1 and down-2 (and down-1 as used in the last two sets is fairly synergistic for whatever it's worth). I definitely see 313X as a very strong Fox set, but 333X is just as good and it seems like only A2ZOMG and I feel that way while the rest of you strongly believe up-3 needs to go with side-3 and the two non-Fox mains in the room probably shouldn't win that disagreement.

 

[DavemanCozy]

The default blaster for Fox is pretty useful against campy characters like Duck Hunt. I wouldn't rule it out completely, as it is still useful and still gives Fox a way to force approaches. It does suck that it has ending lag in the gun now though, which means he has to stop shooting the bad guys at mid-range now. I'd say that the Impact Blaster (Charge blaster) isn't really worth it, imo, the move may be strong and net some KO's but is only useful for that. What I like about Fox is that he can force approaches as well as approach himself. I personally think the default is more useful than 3. The n64 blaster (Falco lasers) is obviously the best one though, for the reasons above.

Fox Illusion default is the best one. I don't think that the Exploding one is as bad as it's made out to be here, used it in tournament once and netted some surprise KOs with it offstage. I do agree that it is overall outclassed by the default and Wolf Flash. The default illusion having combo potential is too good, and the Wolf Flash having gimping potential is also very welcome.

Fire Fox's only advantage over Flying Fox is the hitbox, which in very small situations covers your recovery from opponents attempting to trade one of their moves with it. Other than that, Flying Fox is the obvious option. In regards to Barrel Roll, I personally think it's less useful than the default just because of the distance nerf, though I will admit his damage output with the whirl is pretty good.

I find the Amplifying Reflector useless, tbh. The startup time it has is just stupid. If your goal is to reflect projectiles, use the default reflector. If your goal is to have a gimping tool, then Big Reflector is better.

After experimenting with all the moves, the ones I find myself using the most are:
2122
2322
1122

For campers or other projectile users though:
2121
2321
1121

The only move I find truly better over every other one is the Flying Fox. Other than that though, I think that Fox's defaults can be just as useful as another available custom.

 

[EndlessRain]

It seems you have your facts a little mixed up: Charge Blaster doesn't KO until around 170%, and that's at the edge. It's used to make people jump, basically just to shut off approach options, because if your opponent lets it hit them, they take 10% and have to try to approach again. Barrel Roll does less damage than FireFox, it sees use because it kills at 100%-ish on a huge amount of characters, which is better than most of Fox's other moves. It goes the same distance as FlyingFox (ie. not much less than FireFox).

I disagree with the 1122 set, because I think default blaster is only worth it vs. slow, campy characters, and basically all of them are the ones you want default reflector against. I value 2321 above 2121, but the latter is the one I use as I just plain don't like Wolf Flash. Same goes for 1121, I like the set but it's only good when you're playing against campy and slow characters, and even then the cancellation ability of the n64 blaster is still handy, so it still comes down to personal preference. Fox's default reflector is good, albeit a touch situational, his default side special is good, and his default blaster can work if you want it to. His upB... I feel that some players may miss the recovery distance, but to most the speed of 2 and the sheer kill power of 3 make up for that.

PS. Barrel Roll has been growing on me, as I've started getting used to the move and learning when to use it to get it to hit. And once it does hit, that's usually the stock gone, which is awesome. To say nothing of the mental effect it has on players: You got hit by my move. You don't have a hope of living. But you are not dead yet, first you must sit back and watch as you get dragged up to the top of the screen and only then launched. You can desperately try to DI it, but really, it's futile. Such fun.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Yeah, I noticed that I put some bad sets there that just overlapped. Alright:

I started warming up to Barrel Roll too (up3), KO power is pretty good. Still, I think Flying Fox is the go to move, essentially let's us recover faster with a move that isn't sideb.

Fox Illusion vs Wolf Flash, honestly both are good moves, I think it's purely preference on what you think is more useful. I personally find Flash more useful with blaster2

The ones I'm leaning on:
2122
2332

And to deal with the campy chars:
1121

The windbox for Down B2 is too good to not use Big Reflector on most matchups though.

 

[EndlessRain]

hmmmmmmm idk the ability of B2 to cancel projectiles is pretty useful vs. campy characters... but I really like 1121...
Is there anything we can afford to drop for another anti-projectile set?

 

[elmike]

which MU do you consider that is better without a doubt having default lasers instead of falcos lasers?

 

[EndlessRain]

DHD, Ganondorf. 'S about it.

 

[Protom]

Villager and Ness I find default better over Falcos too..

 

[EndlessRain]

Oh right, Villager. That is another one.
Not seeing Ness. I guess if they don't know the MU too well? But after one match, tops, they'll figure it out and then you have a totally pointless move.

 

[elmike]

can you elaborate on why DHD, Ganondorf, villager and ness?

 

[EndlessRain]

DHD: He don't move a lot. You can sit back and build up percent for free, basically.

Gdorf: Little iffy on this one, but same principle. He is quite easy to avoid, so you can get a good bit of damage on him with it. I think B2 is just as good or better here, I just like the extra damage you can get with B1's fire rate.

Villager: More free damage at long ranges. He can pocket B2 and use it to cancel your attacks/other B2s, or use it to poke when you aren't rushing down. Using B1 makes Pocket worthless. It deals with tree better too, on account of doing more damage in less time.

 

[elmike]

Thank you, but:

DHD: He don't move a lot. You can sit back and build up percent for free, basically.

Doest this apply with B2 as well?

 

[EndlessRain]

Yes but B1 does more damage faster. You can get off 3-ish shots in the time it takes to do one B2 shot. So in situations where you have the luxury of being able to fire it more than once, it is a little better. B2 makes up for it by having the hitstun deal with them just running through your shots, but DHD won't try that anyway because he hates being close to you.

 

[MajiNfraze]

Is there a better way to unlock the custom moves than to beat Classic mode over and over and using the Home button glitch to try and pause the roulette wheel on the red wrench?

Sitting around and spam pausing my game to beat bots to maybe have a 1% chance at the ability I want is just unbearable.

 

[EndlessRain]

In a word, no.
Sucks, right? It took me eight days to get the first 370, maybe two months to get another five. I'm still waiting on the last move.
Some people are working on AR powersaves, so that will probably be an option soon enough.

EDIT: DunnoBro has a thread in which he is running a kind of unlocking project for regions without access to an unlocked 3DS to set up the WiiUs from. I think the way it works is you send your cartridge to him, he unlocks it for you with his powersave, then he sends it back.
http://smashboards.com/threads/free-3ds-customs-unlock-and-set-loading-service.381918/#post-18148900

 

[ArguablyTasty]

I'm a relatively new Fox player, having played Lucario in Brawl, and switching from Greninja after the nerf, and I play mostly against friends who are semi-competitive, but I've spent the last while trying out all of fox's moves, and find myself using 2132 the most. I consider it the best all-around set.

B2: The canceling of projectiles is great in projectile wars, and the slight stun works well at certain distances to get a dash-grab in. Sometimes I switch to B1 for larger opponents such as DK, DDD, and Bowser, since I can rack up decent damage against slow characters lacking reach. Charizard and Ganon I stick with B2. It seems B2 cancels Warlock Kick.

Dash1: Personally, I find Wolf's much more difficult for recovery from the side, and on an already precise character, making things more difficult isn't a great idea IMO. As well, it is inferior for falling recovery. Falling to one side, and correctly timing a dash to the other side seems to be the safest way to recover, (although shine stalling is fun for mind games and netting grabs). I find with Wolf-Flash, the extra vertical height, and therefore further falling distance makes it possible to be hit with dash attacks from faster characters upon landing.

Up3: I think all 3 Up-B's have their uses, and I think we should have at least one of each on the default sets. Fire Fox has that extra distance, Flying Fox is useful against characters that can gimp really well, and Twisting Fox is really the ONLY one that can be used offensively, while having the same distance as Flying Fox. Personally, I've never had a problem with the distance or startup time, and the ability to angle onto the stage can catch people off-guard. As well, it does a great job of sucking in and keeping opponent's stuck in the attack, whereas people can fall out of Fire Fox. It's definitely possible to use it in a fight in the air effectively, and may be possible to use as a once in a blue moon return-to-stage attack. Fire Fox is slightly better for distance, Flying Fox is better against characters with good gimp play, but Twisting Fox is the best all-around IMO.

Shine2: Definitely the best all-around, as it is the only one that has use against all characters. The windbox can be used against anyone, whereas the hitbox of 1 is mostly useless, and 3 has none, only being good against opponent's with slower projectiles, like Lucario.

 

[M@v]

3-1-3-2 is my favorite so far. You guys need to realize blaster 3 and upb 3 are the best ones he has.
3 is the best blaster because you can make it have virtually 0 startup by initiating the move while airborne. That makes it almost as fast as other lasers on startup, and it packs way more punch per shot. You shouldn't be shooting blasters often as fox anyway, but blaster 3 is the most efficient per shot, and it has multiple uses. It has good knockback, so it can actually be used as an edgeguard tool. It also does 10% per shot.

Blaster 2 isn't useless though. It can be used to interrupt fast character's momentum. Likely will be my blaster of choice vs sonic.

Fox illusion is the best side b, agreed there.

Upb 3 is the best one imo because its almost as safe as firefox, but you can kill with it early, or get them offstage. Throw in the fact it can curve on the ground, and you have another offensive option.

All the shines are kinda bad, but the wind shine seems to at least have SOME sort of usage. Also, if you're reflecting a move, the multiplier doesn't matter much. If you reflect a full charge aura sphere for example, its still likely killing them at high percents multiplier or not.

 

[elmike]

Upb 3 is the best one imo because its almost as safe as firefox, but you can kill with it early, or get them offstage.

The problem i see, is that firefox is not safe at all. And having a move that is less safe i think is not a good option (imo)

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The local play I've seen from Fox indicates to me that M@v is right about Fox's best build being 3132 with side-3 and down-1 being logical substitutions (down-1 is mostly for projectile heavy MUs whereas side-3 is probably slightly worse overall but player preference). Fox currently has these sets:

2122
2322
3322
1332
1321
3331

I think these are all decent sets, but adding 3132 is IMO an obvious step and probably 3131 as well. From there it's hard. My intuition is that 2131 (or maybe 2132) would have some very legitimate match-up utility. There are a lot of ways to go here though; none of Fox's custom specials are really useless, and several are really strong in different ways (like side-2 is mostly bad but something like 3232 I could see being a counterpick viable set).

I wouldn't usually say something like this, but as I look at how things go, I think we'll see A LOT of Fox in a customs legal metagame, and since we have to fill out 10 sets for EVO and rock with those, the choices we make here could carry a lot of weight in how the tournament goes. I'd like to ask the Fox community for some very serious and deep soul searching on these customs; of all characters to get right, Fox might actually turn out to be the most important, and I definitely don't have the answers myself as things stand.

 

[elmike]

First i think we should agree which are the absolutely necessary sets thinking for all type of playstyles/players.

I honestly dont like twisting fox at all, but i see that some people do. I also give priority to big reflector over the normal, because with the big reflector you can do everything you can with the normal one, but not viceversa. So....
I think this are the ones that covers all the most important options:

2, 1, 2, 2 (falcos lasers , fox illusion, flying fox, big reflector)
2, 1, 3 , 2 (falcos lasers , fox illusion, twisting fox, big reflector)

3, 1, 2 , 2 (charge blaster , fox illusion, flying fox, big reflector)
3, 1, 3 , 2 (charge lasers , fox illusion, twisting fox, big reflector)

Does someone disagree?

 

[M@v]

3132
3112
2132
2112
3131
3111
2131
2111

Are all ones I can see working. The ones with stock shine would be less viable. I think its more important to have blaster 3 up b 3 and blaster 2 available.wolf side b does have uses, and so does stock upb. Heck, upb 2 allows for instant flamedashing, but no legal stages have the right slopes it seems . Only specials that are useless honestly are stock lasers(would be the best if they could cancel lag on on landing like melee and brawl), explosion side b, and the multiplier shine. The rest of his moves can be viable

 

[luke_atyeo]

I like 2111 and its also the set megafox uses, so I second mav's list

 

[Protom]

Here's what I see it usually boiling down to

Plz excuse the laziness and quality. Was made in paint using friends computer..
I have entered many online and 1 in person custom tournament. I main Fox, and while I usually go with 1331 and 1332, I do sometimes mix things up and use blasters 2 or 3. Here is what in my head it usually boils down to:
Which Blaster is safest/most effective against this characters mobility and possible ability to absorb/reflect?
Does this character have a projectile, and if so, is it worth reflecting?
Do I want to go for kills with Twisting Fox or not? (I always answer this one yes lol)
I Usually find side 3 to work best with up 3 due to up 3s slight recovery nerfs, and side 1 to be good with up 2. (though side 3 is also good, but from reading this thread, it seems most people use side 1 with side 2)

So if we us this chart, we have 12 possible sets, meaning we have to cut 2 (or more, as there might be things I overlooked, such as some people wanting default up b)
If we end up using the above and cutting two, I'd cut 3122 and 1121 or 1122, mainly due to not see them being recommended by anyone in this thread..

That leaves us with:

1121 OR 1122
1331
1332
2121
2122
2331
2332
3121
3331
3332

Thoughts? @ EndlessRain @ elmike @ M@v @ Amazing Ampharos (Once again, sorry for the somewhat confusing image)

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Everyone I talk to in person wants X13X for Fox. The lesser recovery on up-3 isn't very big of a deal, and side-1 is a really handy move.

 

[M@v]

Played with customs all day today, and I honestly can't see any reason why you would ever not use up-3. It can kill at 100%, it can be an approach mixup, it can end a combo, among other things. I know there's some stuff you can do with side 2, but I like side 1 the best. Every loadout I use will likely be X13X, with my primary being 2132.

 

[Rhus]

Played with customs all day today, and I honestly can't see any reason why you would ever not use up-3. It can kill at 100%, it can be an approach mixup, it can end a combo, among other things. I know there's some stuff you can do with side 2, but I like side 1 the best. Every loadout I use will likely be X13X, with my primary being 2132.

I definitely feel like 2132 is his best set, I agree.

Though I have this weird perception of actually liking the default blaster and default shine. The big shine does not increase projectile speed, does it?

I really don't think any other illusion is worth it, the explosive one is really bad, and while the Flash has uses, I really wouldn't put it above Side1 in overall utility and usefulness. I like Side3, but I don't think I would ever use it in a serious match.

 

[M@v]

Big shine does not. However, its shine box is a lot bigger, plus the windbox on it can be useful. Explosion side b andthe powered up reflector are his worst customs.

 

[Rhus]

Can't argue with that. I'd be down with the amp reflector if it still stalled in mid air and didn't have that awful startup, not worth the tradeoff at all. Side2 is just awful.

Yeah, I would say vs most characters that rely on their projectiles heavily (DHD, Pac Man, Samus, Link, Pikachu etc) default shine is certainly better. Big shine is good everywhere else (though I really need to practice that wind box...).

 

[DtJ S2n]

Going to agree with 2132 in most any circumstances. I can't believe how quickly I dismissed Neutral-B 2, that move just fits on Fox so well. It does pretty noticeable damage and is so easy to sneak in. Add on top of that the potential of stealing jumps off stage and all the quick and easy landing trap set-ups you can make with this?

It needs to mentioned that Twisting Fox has pretty great priority once it gets going. It's safer in that regard than the other up-bs and gives it more credibility as a recovery.

 

[elmike]

one question to people choosing upB 3:

Are you getting good results with upB3 even versus better players than you? Or are you "the better smasher" when you use upb3?
I honestly cant see how does upB3 is a better option than the other 2 versus a player that is a better smasher than me.

 

[-JD-]

I'm definitely in agreement with having 2111 and 3111 as standards sets for Fox. All the blasters are useful for different reasons in different match-ups so it makes sense to have "load-outs" with each blaster type.

I also have really been enjoying using 2131, and to a lesser extent 3131. The latter 2 move-sets are nice because you get the same blaster options from 2111 and 3111 but with the option of using the barrel roll if you want that extra kill option. I personally prefer to leave the fox illusion and reflector default.

Whats with the barrel roll hate? It has great kill potential off the top and using it horizontally is great for punishing rolls, not to mention its a good option out of shield. Similar to ZSS's up B but with more directional options.

I propose the following be at least some of Fox's standard custom load-outs:
2111, 3111
2131, 3131, 1131

With these 5 you can get every permutation of Fox's blaster types and viable(imo) up b's.

Thoughts?

 

[Protom]

one question to people choosing upB 3:

Are you getting good results with upB3 even versus better players than you? Or are you "the better smasher" when you use upb3?
I honestly cant see how does upB3 is a better option than the other 2 versus a player that is a better smasher than me.

Honestly up b 3 is actually one of the few reasons I've been able to take a game from some players who wre clearly better than me(ex. Schmerpin. His Peach easily beats my fox, but I was able to get a game off him in a set due to him not being familiar with Twisting fox, especially out of shield. He still won the set after learning to respect the up bs kill power more)
Against players at my level it's still something I personally find to be indespencible, as I have trouble killing with fox outside of that move. (Smash attacks and up airs though I do pull off sometimes effectively)

@ Amazing Ampharos I think we should first find a general consensus about up b. does a large majority prefer up 3? If so, we could give up more up 2 sets for up 3 variant, mainly ones that include different side b sets. A poll maybe??

 

[Timbers]

one question to people choosing upB 3:

Are you getting good results with upB3 even versus better players than you? Or are you "the better smasher" when you use upb3?
I honestly cant see how does upB3 is a better option than the other 2 versus a player that is a better smasher than me.

This is only theory speaking and so my answer probably doesn't relate to your question, but upB3 looks like a very powerful airdodge punish imo. The startup frames are fast(ish) and the hitbox lingers. This is unlike ZSS' upB as Fox's upB3 stalls in the air and can frametrap reliably.It also has the added benefit where you can angle the upB3 away to avoid punishment should you miss.

People are also talking about upB3 OoS but I'm a little more reserved on this functionality.

 

[EndlessRain]

Well, exams have passed and I have spare time again. So I'm back to work on this.
Just going to say that I have started using 2132 as my main set, over 2122 (which I now run pretty much exclusively against good edgeguarders). The kill power is great, but the speed of upB2 is what I miss. I still get meteored/stagespiked a lot, but once I gave it up, I found myself liking the ability to kill at 100% more than the ability to live somewhat longer.
upB2 still recommended against Sheik though.

EDIT: What's with the Flash hate? I find it to be not much worse than default, myself.

 

[DtJ S2n]

In my experience, up-b 3 can't really be effective at punishing air dodge, we simply don't have the air speed for it. And there's no such thing as comboing into it. Never even tried it OoS. I've found success with tech chasing with it or covering get-up options with it. It covers everything but get-up roll if you use it right above the ledge? It's also a very good spotdodge punish if you make that read. Also it's situational but it can make for a decent edge guarding tool. Up-b 1 has no use except as a recovery, but Up-b 3 isn't straight inferior as a recovery. The distance and speed are obviously lacking but I'm pretty sure it has higher priority that makes it much more troublesome to edge guard.

 

[Protom]

So guys. To finalize ten sets we have to come to an agreement over up2 vs up3.
proposal for if up3 only
1131
2131
3131
1132
2132
3132
2332
1331
1332
If up2 included
112X
212X
312X
1131
2131
3131
1132
2132
3132
1332

Thoughts on up3 vs up2 plz. We really need to decide on this soon..