Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Fox

[DavemanCozy]

Yo, actually though, Laser 3 is legitimate. I was playing last night vs some of my labbing partners, the pressure you can apply from a distance is just as good as laser 2 (if not better than). Jumping cancelling the start-up makes it 20x[x] (huehuehue) better in my eyes.

 

[EndlessRain]

Oh yeah, it's damn good, no one is denying that (well, those who are are wrong, at least ) but it's not the be-all and and end-all either. Laser 2 is just as legit, and imo more so against speedier characters (and less so against slower ones because 3 catches up in spamminess then).

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So what I take away from this is take my list and replace down-2 with down-1 on any set with neutral-1 since neutral-1 and down-1 are suited to the same types of match-ups. It makes sense, and I can do that no problem which brings us all very close to a resolution. Other than that, I see only one disagreement with my list and EndlessRain's. My list has 10 sets and includes 2322 and 3332 while EndlessRain has only nine sets (a mistake?) but does include the set 3322 which is a combination I don't have included right now. It should be noted that both of us do have the set 2332.

The basic issue here is that space is limited and I didn't quite have enough room to include every possible Wolf Flash set. Right now four sets have Wolf Flash in my list:

2332
2322
1331
3332

I felt like including 1331 (formerly 1332) was important since it's one of only two neutral-1 sets and gives Fox some kind of choice in set when in match-ups where he wants neutral-1. That means that for the neutral-2/3 and up-2/3 sets with Wolf Flash we need an odd man out to make everything fit. My interpretation is that up-2 is less popular overall than up-3 and while neutral-2 and neutral-3 are tightly contested neutral-2 is just a tiny bit more popular so the natural one to exclude would be 3322. I don't know if we have particular match-ups or synergies to consider here though; what do you guys think about this?

 

[Protom]

So what I take away from this is take my list and replace down-2 with down-1 on any set with neutral-1 since neutral-1 and down-1 are suited to the same types of match-ups. It makes sense, and I can do that no problem which brings us all very close to a resolution. Other than that, I see only one disagreement with my list and EndlessRain's. My list has 10 sets and includes 2322 and 3332 while EndlessRain has only nine sets (a mistake?) but does include the set 3322 which is a combination I don't have included right now. It should be noted that both of us do have the set 2332.

The basic issue here is that space is limited and I didn't quite have enough room to include every possible Wolf Flash set. Right now four sets have Wolf Flash in my list:

2332
2322
1331
3332

I felt like including 1331 (formerly 1332) was important since it's one of only two neutral-1 sets and gives Fox some kind of choice in set when in match-ups where he wants neutral-1. That means that for the neutral-2/3 and up-2/3 sets with Wolf Flash we need an odd man out to make everything fit. My interpretation is that up-2 is less popular overall than up-3 and while neutral-2 and neutral-3 are tightly contested neutral-2 is just a tiny bit more popular so the natural one to exclude would be 3322. I don't know if we have particular match-ups or synergies to consider here though; what do you guys think about this?

Ya, I think that'll do it..

 

[EndlessRain]

3332 and 3322 serve identical roles. It's a one-or-the-other situation, there's no need for both. Their purpose is edgeguarding, and B3, side3, and down2 are Fox's best edgeguard tools. So we need one set with those three on it. The debate is the upB: I prefer 2 because you tend to spend an uncomfortable amount of time offstage when abusing the B3/down2 combination, and it helps mitigate that by getting you back with no delay, but others prefer up3 because it can potentially trap people with the charge hitbox as they recover, acting as an edgeguard tool itself.
I don't think we need both, as the choice of upB makes less difference here than elsewhere, but the vulnerability created by the startup/charge time of up3 becomes more and more pronounced the more you times you have to use it, and you spend a lot more time recovering if you're trying to edgeguard. I think it comes down to a "Which is better?" choice, as opposed to a matchup-dependant one. Might I suggest a vote?

 

[Protom]

3332 and 3322 serve identical roles. It's a one-or-the-other situation, there's no need for both. Their purpose is edgeguarding, and B3, side3, and down2 are Fox's best edgeguard tools. So we need one set with those three on it. The debate is the upB: I prefer 2 because you tend to spend an uncomfortable amount of time offstage when abusing the B3/down2 combination, and it helps mitigate that by getting you back with no delay, but others prefer up3 because it can potentially trap people with the charge hitbox as they recover, acting as an edgeguard tool itself.
I don't think we need both, as the choice of upB makes less difference here than elsewhere, but the vulnerability created by the startup/charge time of up3 becomes more and more pronounced the more you times you have to use it, and you spend a lot more time recovering if you're trying to edgeguard. I think it comes down to a "Which is better?" choice, as opposed to a matchup-dependant one. Might I suggest a vote?

Like I. Said on the last page, I. agree that we only need one set like that, and it should have up2. (Despite me being up3s biggest supporter).
If we do this the last spot can go to..? 1332

 

[Book Jacket]

3332 and 3322 serve identical roles. It's a one-or-the-other situation, there's no need for both. Their purpose is edgeguarding, and B3, side3, and down2 are Fox's best edgeguard tools. So we need one set with those three on it. The debate is the upB: I prefer 2 because you tend to spend an uncomfortable amount of time offstage when abusing the B3/down2 combination, and it helps mitigate that by getting you back with no delay, but others prefer up3 because it can potentially trap people with the charge hitbox as they recover, acting as an edgeguard tool itself.
I don't think we need both, as the choice of upB makes less difference here than elsewhere, but the vulnerability created by the startup/charge time of up3 becomes more and more pronounced the more you times you have to use it, and you spend a lot more time recovering if you're trying to edgeguard. I think it comes down to a "Which is better?" choice, as opposed to a matchup-dependant one. Might I suggest a vote?

Thought about it a lot. As much as I like 3332, and I really, do, I agree with 3322. 333X is all of foxes heaviest options, but also some of his most strict. I think between 2332 and 3322, Fox gets much of the mix of flexibility and power that I enjoy, and it does seem to be best for edgeguarding.

And I hate the start-up punishes. I hate them so much.

 

[DavemanCozy]

What I'm gathering is:

Fox Illusion sets:
3132,
2122,
2132,
1131,
3131

Wolf Flash sets:
2332,
3322,
2322,
1331,
3332

And that makes 10. Did I miss one?

 

[Protom]

What I'm gathering is:

Fox Illusion sets:
3132,
2122,
2132,
1131,
3131

Wolf Flash sets:
2332,
3322,
2322,
1331,
3332

And that makes 10. Did I miss one?

I think we said that having both 3322 and 3332 isn't neccessary (some r in favor of axing 3332 in case theres a set we missed I think..)
other than that I think we should b ready..

 

[DavemanCozy]

Holy crap, UpB3 is actually insanely mindblowing amazing.

You can land it by doing it right after a footstool on any standing character. Guaranteed on large characters who can't escape with DI.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

What I'm gathering is:

Fox Illusion sets:
3132,
2122,
2132,
1131,
3131

Wolf Flash sets:
2332,
3322,
2322,
1331,
3332

And that makes 10. Did I miss one?

You're missing 3122. This is probably more important to include than an analogous Wolf Flash set.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Basically get rid of 3332 then in favor of 3122. Aye?

 

[Protom]

Basically get rid of 3332 then in favor of 3122. Aye?

Pretty much that and I think we're good. Any other suggestions, anyone??

 

[EndlessRain]

Yep, sounds good to me.

 

[Book Jacket]

Basically get rid of 3332 then in favor of 3122. Aye?

Yeah, man. That's all I think we need.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Seems like this is covering everything, based on the comments in this thread:

3132
2122
3122
3322
1331

2132
1131
3131
2332
2322

 

[Protom]

Yup. I think we're done. Any last words suggestions before we pack things up anyone?? We're almost at the deadline too..
@ Amazing Ampharos I think we're finally ready..

 

[M@v]

For our movesets too; remember as general rules of thumb for shines:

-If you think you will be using the reflector properties of shine more than the windbox (To get out of attacks, gimps, etc) use normal shine since it has the multiplyer. Otherwise use wind shine. Examples include villager, Duck hunt, and ROB. In most of these kind of matchups (ROB being an exception), Laser 1 tends to be good choice to complement shine 1 to help mitigate the spam.

-If its a projectile heavy character with a gimpable recovery, you can use either shine. You may want to opt for the extra reflect damage, or you may want to be have another edgeguard tool. Examples include Link, Toon Link, and Samus. Like, with those 3, if they miss the upb sweetspot, you can short hop windshine them right before their upb animations end and push them just far enough away from the edge so they helpless fall to their deaths. Its a situational thing obviously, as they have to mis-space the upb (Or you predicted them trying to hit you with the upbs rather than going ledge), but its one of the several uses for the move.

-Vs Diddy, use normal shine imo because you can actually shine spike diddy for a kill by shining his up b before he's done charging. Its usually better to use nair against it, but sometimes you can go really deep down to get the kill, and if you would nair there you would SD. Use shine instead deep down to stop your momentum and allow you to recover.

 

[EndlessRain]

Laser 1 tends to be good choice to complement shine 1 to help mitigate the spam.

Was this a typo? Did you mean to write Laser 2? Because otherwise I'm not seeing it, could you explain how 1 surpasses 2 in this role?

 

[M@v]

Was this a typo? Did you mean to write Laser 2? Because otherwise I'm not seeing it, could you explain how 1 surpasses 2 in this role?

In some matchups, laser 1 actually helps slow down projectiles that have hurtboxes, or even blow them up. Duck hunt is the prime example. You can laser the can to make it change direction or hamper its movement, and you can quickly blow up the clay discs with regular lasers too. Lasers can also slow down other things, like rob's top. Since laser 1 has a much higher rate of fire than laser 2, it can slow down or blow up these kinds of projectiles much more effectively than any of the other lasers. Against characters who have projectiles without hurtboxes, you can use laser 2 also, but I prefer the higher rate of fire of the normal lasers without the stun. The power/stun to rate of fire tradeoff for laser 2 isn't worth it for me. Laser 3 is worth it for me personally, because that tradeoff is much better than the laser 2 imo.

 

[EndlessRain]

Laser 2 straight-up destroys them in one shot though. That's one of the the primary reasons I use it: You can shoot, say, Link's arrows, or Samus' missles, and they break right away. The endlag is the same but you don't need to shoot for as long.

 

[M@v]

Can we test it vs some of the beefier projectiles like DHDs? I know laser 1s don't break samus's missiles in 1 hit, so laser 2 would be better there for sure. One thing I like laser 1 for (in the matchups I use it) is for damage racking

2132 is on our list, but not 2131.

Would 2131 be better to have than 2122 or 2322?

 

[EndlessRain]

I don't think laser 2 breaks the can in one shot, and since you have to go through the endlag after every shot, that probably means 1 is faster to break it. I use 1 in that matchup anyway, since you can plug away at DHD all you want and he can't do much about it. I find reflecting his projectiles nigh-useless though, because of their weird movement.
And looking at the list, you're right. We don't have 2131. That's one of my primary sets O_o
I'd say it's pretty vital... I don't know what to drop for it though. An up2 set is important, but forcing players who like side3 to use side1 for access to up2 (or vice versa) seems dumb. I feel like the easiest set to drop would be 3131, since it seems to me like it would be outclassed by 1X31 or 2X31 in most matchups, but Charge Blaster affects your overall play so much that I don't know if that would be a good idea...

 

[M@v]

I think all the x131s should be on there the more I look at it...I do think 2131 is the least popular of the 3, but still popular/important enough to deserve a spot, especially when there are upb2s on the list over it. Its more important than those. That's why I suggested getting rid of one of those 2.

 

[EndlessRain]

I guess cutting 2322 in favour of 2131 is the best thing to do :/ Oh well. Another vote, I guess?

 

[elmike]

Can we test it vs some of the beefier projectiles like DHDs? I know laser 1s don't break samus's missiles in 1 hit, so laser 2 would be better there for sure. One thing I like laser 1 for (in the matchups I use it) is for damage racking

2132 is on our list, but not 2131.

Would 2131 be better to have than 2122 or 2322?

2122 should be on the final list, its the *better* combination with upb2

 

[hiramsthoughts]

The set I like the most is 2132/3132, I've used all three upBs extensively and I seriously think it's superior than the other two, being a good OOS move and good to punish rolls, specially after conditioning them with lasers.

 

[EndlessRain]

We're pretty much all in agreement about up3 being the best, but we need up2 in there as well. We're trying to decide which up2 set we should cut from the list to make room for 2131.

 

[RPK]

I believe that these will end up being the best choices based on what Ive seen of the customs he was given
1131
2131
3131
1132
2132
3132
2332
3332
2323
3323

 

[EndlessRain]

Hmm. I suppose that if we're dropping a set the best one to go with would be 1331, or at least the one the fewest people will miss. Sorry guys :/
So yeah I second RPK's list.

 

[Protom]

Hmm. I suppose that if we're dropping a set the best one to go with would be 1331, or at least the one the fewest people will miss. Sorry guys :/
So yeah I second RPK's list.

lol 133X is the one set I use (and sometimes 233X) and is one I find to be incredibly good. (I think I alrwady talked about my success with it in previous posts)
Any other sets that not many will possibly miss?? Just askin..

 

[Weeman]

I've heard you can actually combo Down throw into Wolf Flash, is that setup actually useful?

 

[M@v]

They can tech the wolf flash spike. If they don't you can combo again out of it. You could go for a wolf flash spike offstage as a kill setup, but its much more situational than what side b 1 can be used for. You can combo normal fox illusion into upair in certain situations, which is a kill combo in its own right, and its a much safer recovery option.

Basically, Wolf flash is a situational custom.

 

[EndlessRain]

Pretty much every time I've used Wolf Flash I've been able to get the dthrow-> offstage sideB meteor combo. A decent few were kills. I think I might start using it against Mac, since I tend not to use Illusion much in that MU anyway.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Regarding lasers again:

There are matchups that I have found Laser-1 to be much more useful, mainly ones where you fight against a character with a reflector or something that shuts down projectiles. They essentially will shut down your ability to apply pressure from far away

The MUs imo I have found default better are:


Other than that, I think that either Laser-2 or Laser-3 for practically every matchup should be used. The choice between Laser-2 or Laser-3 is preference: I've seen Mega Fox use Laser-2 with good effect, but I've also seen a lot of other Foxes use Laser-3, and I personally much prefer it now after playing with it more.

With Laser-3, all these characters who could crouch under Fox's default and 2nd blaster now get hit:
among others I'm sure.

The fact that it can hit Kirby and Jiggs while crouching means it hits anybody though, since these two have the shortest crouches in the game.

 

[EndlessRain]

I like Charge Blaster against RosaLuma because sure, she can shut it down, but if it hits Luma, it kills Luma. That's a trade-off I'm willing to take tbh, especially since I don't shoot Rosa much anyway.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I like Charge Blaster against RosaLuma because sure, she can shut it down, but if it hits Luma, it kills Luma. That's a trade-off I'm willing to take tbh, especially since I don't shoot Rosa much anyway.

Oh damn, thanks for pointing that out. Rosa shouldn't have been on that list, must have clicked her head by accident on my phone.

 

[A_male_platypus]

I like 1-3-3-2

The free damage from the regular blaster has been more useful than the other 2 so far, and I feel like the hitbox on the 2nd lazer is a little wonky. Also, the laser really doesn't travel very far. Number 3 would be more useful if it killed earlier

 

[Protom]

I like 1-3-3-2

The free damage from the regular blaster has been more useful than the other 2 so far, and I feel like the hitbox on the 2nd lazer is a little wonky. Also, the laser really doesn't travel very far. Number 3 would be more useful if it killed earlier

Ayy. Someone else who likes using my set. Cheers

 

[Cazdon]

Wow this was a good read. It's nice to see people in tactful discussion on the internet.

As a question, which set's would be good against these character match-ups?
and in particular