Official Stage Legality Discussion

[deepseadiva]

I always thought the constant lower ceiling was more skewing in matches than the temporary walls and walkoffs Delfino and Castle Siege have.

>.>

 

[Sinz]

extremely low ceilng. HEAVILY favors some characters. While the other two are pretty nice

 

[bobson]

Halberd's low ceiling isn't constant and is greatly overstated in its effect, allowing kills all of 9% earlier than Smashville while on the ship. While on the floating platform, it's 5% earlier.

 

[Underload]

Why is Frigate not in discussion as a potential starter? It seems more clean-cut than Halberd, Delfino, and Castle Siege, and has less headaches that come with it. The big problem people have with it is one transformation's lack of a right ledge, am I right? That problem is miniscule, and even the problematic characters (Ness, Mario, Marth, Falco, etc.) have a good chance of recovery if the platform is below or at ground level (which is 2/3 of the time).

Just a new argument to bring up.

 

[6Mizu]

Because it can kill people very easliy, on side is not grabable, the stage geography on the transformation makes camping/ getting hit by certain moves gayer. Those ar some big reasons...i'm sure other can give some more reasons.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The ceiling is barely lower on Halberd. Really, you die no more than 5% earlier. Melee had legitimately huge variation between its starters in terms of ceiling height (just compare Yoshi's Story to Dreamland 64!) and it was fine. A very tame and barely different stage like Halberd shouldn't be a problem.

Delfino works really well too in my experience though. The King Dedede case shouldn't be that bad even if you assume you really don't want to fight him there (though there are arguments that it's worth it to just go for it and play around the cgs; let's ignore them for the time being); if you're in the ~2/3 of the cast who King Dedede can chaingrab, you strike FD, Delfino, and whichever of Smashville or Pokemon Stadium 1 worries you more. King Dedede definitely strikes Battlefield, Yoshi's, and Lylat, leaving you on your choice of Smashville or Pokemon Stadium 1 (which one you want probably varies by matchup). Is that really so bad? Without Delfino and PS1 in the mix, you end up on Yoshi's probably... not really that different (in most of these matchups, Yoshi's, Smashville, and PS1 should all be pretty fair, especially since you're guaranteed not to get your least favorite out of those). If you use PS1 as the last stage in 5 stage striking, you'd end up with an identical result to 7 with Delfino anyway.

Also, do remember that there are many characters who simply don't fear King Dedede on Delfino Plaza. A King Dedede main can't rely on the stage throughout the tournament because guys like Meta Knight and Mr. Game & Watch who perform well on the stage and can't be chaingrabbed will take him there all day.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Why is Frigate not in discussion as a potential starter? It seems more clean-cut than Halberd, Delfino, and Castle Siege, and has less headaches that come with it. The big problem people have with it is one transformation's lack of a right ledge, am I right? That problem is miniscule, and even the problematic characters (Ness, Mario, Marth, Falco, etc.) have a good chance of recovery if the platform is below or at ground level (which is 2/3 of the time).

Just a new argument to bring up.

besides what 6Mizu said, also because of the bad edges (for tether recovieres)

 

[Sucumbio]

I agree AA, though in addition to the DDD matchups on Delfino, there is the water mechanics as brought up by OS on another thread... there are... 3? yeah, the beach, the ... tower things with water way at the bottom, and then the cafe looking place w/water on one side, a walk off on the other. speaking of which there are also a few various walk-offs, AND walled areas, I'm definitely striking delfino if i'm up against DDD or other cg characters (if I'm using one that can be cg), and FD also, but this means I can contend the rest provided it's 2 strikes 1 ban. If it's a 7-stage, 1 strike 1 ban, definitely strike FD ban DP and he strikes BF or Yoshi (depending on mu/op) and bans Lylat that leaves SV, HB and BF/YI:B depending on what he banned... this seems fair.

7 stage or 9 stage, it's doable and definitely promotes fairness better than the a-typical list.

And CS is potentially more fair than DF, having only 3 transformations, but it also has a longer walk-off period (middle segment), plus walk-offs during transformations... in fairness the middle transformation is HUGE and you can fairly easily avoid the CG, and the sub-trans are the shortest of all the stages in this new list in consideration, but halberd not having any, and instead having stage hazards, makes me either put halberd as 3rd to last of the neutrals, or on a tie w/castle siege, and delfino still remains last.


------------------

WAY of topic (kinda) - A different approach: Tiers - single match choice allowance

First Tier: 1/1 -Start the first match on SV.

Second Tier: 3/5 - The 2nd match can be loser cp's from FD/BF/YI:B/Lylat/PS1 (1 strike each determines which 3 to chose from)

Third Tier: 3/5 -The third match (if necessary) can be loser of round 2's cp from any of the 2 remaining from the previous list + DP/CS/HB (1 strike each determined which 3 to chose from, can strike from 2 from previous list also)

For 4th match plus (if necessary): Repeat, return to SV, then cp to 2nd tier, etc.

Example:

MK vs Snake, First round single elimination, 3 round max.

Match One: SV, winner - MK, loser - Snake, cp's to YI:B, MK strikes YI:B, Snake strikes FD, cp's to BF

Match Two: BF, winner - Snake, loser - MK, cp's to PS1, snake strikes PS1, MK strikes Lylat, cp's to DP.

Match Three: DP, winner - Snake

Ok, now obviously these "results" were just made up, but this at least illustrates two things, how it'd work, and the type of strategy that would go into CP'ing... I believe I've seen other such models suggested before, but I know not of any TO using them in their events, so I dunno how it'd really play out, or if there is a flaw in here that I'm missing. This does however accomplish a few things. It makes the first battle important, but it leaves that type of importance where it belongs, on the first match. This also accomplishes the ability to keep all brawls on the most "neutral" of stages, without sacrificing variety, and fairness.

 

[Steeler]

imo, the problem is that there simply aren't enough "neutrals" in brawl and that some characters can really abuse the most conservative stages.

i think someone mentioned this a few pages back, but i really think the most logical solution right now is to provide for 7 or 9 starter stages in order to give the players more options and increase the chance that the first match is really played out on a stage that balances the advantages and disadvantages for both characters. the first match is the most important.

it doesn't really "fix" the problem but whatever. if i had my way in a perfect world, every tournament wii would have a selection of custom stages on it to add to or replace some of the starters.

 

[Linkshot]

In a perfect world, we'd strike from every stage for the first match.

 

[infomon]

In a perfect world, Brawl would have had more stages that weren't insane.

My problem with the "custom stage" suggestion is that it totally segregates competitive Brawl from the casuals; it means you can't just play Brawl, show up to a tournament and expect to even know what game you're playing when you get there.... which sort of diminishes the legitimacy of saying we're "competing" at brawl.

Removing broken stages, glitches, and turning off items were necessary evils, but adding custom stages would be due to a desire for more "balance" in the game, which isn't really necessary, it just would've been nice.

IMO Brawl's okay the way it is (could have been much better, but it's okay), so long as TO's aren't scrubs and keep legitimate CP stages in like Pictochat, Norfair, Luigi's, Distant Planet, PS2, etc. tbh I don't even know why Skyworld's banned all over the place; it seems reasonable to me.

Also 7+ starters would be great.

 

[Linkshot]

Skyworld falls under the category of Luigi's Mansion; there's a cave of life that can be manually removed. I think most of the complaints come from "Bawww they destroyed my edge ;-;"

You know what they can do on other stages? They can just grab the ledge and achieve the same effect. Oh, and guess what? Skyworld has two ledges on both sides, as well as an unbreakable moving platform at the bottom, with ledges.

If you're really worried about missing the tech and falling through the cloud, you could...I dunno...break the floor? Oh, but then you'd probably just die off the top.

Also, the floors are on a timer. Just don't take the risk if you can avoid it.

Example:

Apparently, this happened at OBScene, a MK spammed tornado across the level and nothing could be done. Now, the stage will break eventually, which would allow for a lot more maneuverability for 7 seconds, to avoid MK. As well, there would be no edges for MK to plank and just wait for them to come back.

My verdict is that this stage needs something definitively more gamebreaking. Yes, tether recoveries suck, but when DON'T they? As stated before, you can just ledgehog on any other stage to achieve the same effect.

EDIT

Also throwing out that if it's not a matter of the floors, Skyworld is slightly bigger than Battlefield. If the tornado breaks Skyworld this way...why isn't Battlefield considered broken?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I honestly think Skyworld counters tethers too hard.

Break the bottom floors, and then just knock them off of the stage. Where on many stages they would make it back, they would be screwed here. On Frigate, it's only one edge, with a platform that is sometimes below the edge, and the grabless ledge is there a predictable amount of time without any control by the players. On Skyworld, it's on demand, on either side of the stage. The edges can be missing easily 80%ish of the time.

There is also the fact that Ike can't help but basically destroy the ledge he's trying to recover to 95% of the time. >_> I'm all for good edgeguarding...but not edgeguarding that only requires a few Dtilts to screw a guy over because Ike's aether will finish the job of breaking the stage. That's zero risk for a great reward. At least on normal stages, you have to risk moving off stage to grab the ledge and you need to get the timing right.

 

[deepseadiva]

Skyworld, Distant Planet, and Luigi's Mansion have light circling. :/

 

[infomon]

So it kind of sucks, but it's pretty sad that it's near-unanimously agreed in this community that we should just go ahead and ban something because we don't understand it and are afraid of it.

 

[Linkshot]

I am scared of and don't understand the French language. Ban it pl0x? :V

Anyway, I will take you there in future tourneys if it benefits me, or we will have a bunch of matches in friendlies there, since I do like the stage as a whole.

(But since it falls into a "bad rep" in the community, I have a troll-song on it >.>)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So it kind of sucks, but it's pretty sad that it's near-unanimously agreed in this community that we should just go ahead and ban something because we don't understand it and are afraid of it.

No, I'm fairly sure this is a case of "We've tried it, it doesn't work." Seeing as it was legal at tournaments for a while, and not never legal like say Rumble Falls. Or w/e that stage is.

I do believe that if the MK was careful and SH'd his nados and canceled them before touching the ground, he would be basically unbeatable on the stage. How can you break the platforms below him if he's busy nading that whole area? He can just hit you once, and then keep doing that for the rest of the match. It wouldn't be stalling, as he would be actively attacking, and you wouldn't be able to do anything about it, unless you were Snake and constantly ran towards the nado while holding a grenade in your hands.

I do believe it's too strong of a CP against tethers/Ike/Wario (in theory, if he needed to use his Up B to recover, and due to no auto-snap and multihitting). You should be punished by your opponent for recovering, not the stage. No stage that is legal currently punishes you by itself while you are recovering, unless it's through a hazard that could hit you while you were onstage anyways (lava walls, bombs).

Circle Camping and Caves of Life suck. Even temporary ones. If they exist, it should be an instant ban for the stage. No, I don't think Luigi's Mansion should be legal, for those very reasons.

 

[Ilove]

The forecoming was originally supposed to be a reply to another thread, but I figured it would be more fitting here.

_________________
I may be wrong, but I assume the original purpose of starting with a neutral stage is so neither player or more specifically character can have a significant stage advantage. Of course, because a significant advantage is relative, the neutrals only favor characters in general less than counter pick and banned stages. Therefore, the neutrals, if examined individually, would be to some extent deemed "unfair".

This is where stage striking comes into play. A character will generally have a slight disadvantage on only a small number of the neutrals, so the player gets rid of those disadvantages as does the opponent. The result theoretically is a match with the smallest amount of stage disadvantages possible.

Because of this, Final Destination should NOT be banned. Though some characters benefit from it greatly, it's irrelevant because of stage striking. In general, stage disadvantages are minimal there other than the characters that advantage from it significantly.

Counter pick stages, though applying to the aforementioned to some extent, generally have more extreme advantages for a wider variety of characters. Final Destination has small stage disbalance in matchups in relevance to stages that are commonly accepted a counter picks.

Also defending my purpose, a high amount of neutral stages is highly unnecessary. With 5 being an optimum number, its purpose is fulfilled to its intended extent assuming the neutrals are what I've defined as a neutral.

 

[twistaleve]

why is ps2 near the banned

 

[buenob]

lol linkshot, i don't get a shout out for being the one to ban skyworld at my own tournament? I said if anyone could prove it broken to me, then I would ban it... a top MK player honstly _only_ nado'd me, and beat me... the level is broken... there's no way i would lose to _just_ tornado on any other level

there may be other ways to play/break the stage, but one is enough

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

why is ps2 near the banned

Due to the "odd transformations, it disrupts gameplay too much (I think its mostly from the Wind and Thunder areas

 

[Mr. Johan]

Is there any chance Rumble Falls could become a counterpick if some more testing was done on it in tournaments?

 

[Linkshot]

No, because tourneygoers won't come if Rumble Falls is on the list.

 

[Sovereign]

No, because tourneygoers won't come if Rumble Falls is on the list.

That's a terribly closed mindset the Brawl Community has, then.

I honestly believe that any stage in the game should be available to players as a counterpick, unless it's otherwise banned, by the opponent. Starters should be the usual set of neutrals, plus a few more. Stages like, Norfair that give characters that are low on the tier list, with lots of disadvantaged MUs like Ganondorf, would actually help make the stage picking aspect of the game more competitive, and would force more variety in the game.

Seeing the same two to three, or even four stages in a tournament, gets old. opening up the counterpick list more, would be good. Just don't put in scrolling stages, like Rumble Falls, and Mushroomy Kingdom.

 

[Linkshot]

To clear things up, I do support Rumble Falls being CP, but it's just not realistically going to happen.

I believe that stage striking should take from every available stage, but there are some that just have to go because this is Brawl, not Tag.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Circle Camping and Caves of Life suck. Even temporary ones. If they exist, it should be an instant ban for the stage. No, I don't think Luigi's Mansion should be legal, for those very reasons.

The reason why circle camping is banned is because it's an infinite stall that by it's nature overcentralizes.


If it's temporary, it's not really circule camping.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The reason why circle camping is banned is because it's an infinite stall that by it's nature overcentralizes.


If it's temporary, it's not really circule camping.

Yes it is. It doesn't have to last the whole match to ruin it.

Let's say it's at Luigi's Mansion. I'm Wario/Sonic/Falcon(lol)/MK, my opponent is someone slower. It's been fairly even so far, we're both on the last stock, I have a 20% lead. I glance at the game clock, it shows one minute left. At that point, I would say "Screw it, he can't keep up, and I don't want to risk messing up when it's this close." and thus Circle Camp the last minute. My opponent can:

A) Chase me in vain for the last minute, hoping I somehow slip up. Not very likely at all.

B) Try to destroy the stage completely in time, AND make up the 20% difference. That's not happening, as it takes too long to destroy the stage.

C) Attempt to partly destroy the stage to reduce the area I can circle camp in, and hopefully manage to land enough hits to win the match.


As you can see, I've basically won the round. I didn't need to circle camp the whole time, just that one last little bit. I knew I had a faster character, all I have to do take a lead and then run. Heck, it wouldn't need to be just the last minute. I could do that every time I took a lead, forcing the opponent to spend time destroying the stage to get at me, which is time he's not fighting me. Hence why I believe any circle camping should equal an instant ban. It's just too easy to take advantage of, even if it's not permanent.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yes it is. It doesn't have to last the whole match to ruin it.

Let's say it's at Luigi's Mansion. I'm Wario/Sonic/Falcon(lol)/MK, my opponent is someone slower. It's been fairly even so far, we're both on the last stock, I have a 20% lead. I glance at the game clock, it shows one minute left. At that point, I would say "Screw it, he can't keep up, and I don't want to risk messing up when it's this close." and thus Circle Camp the last minute. My opponent can:

A) Chase me in vain for the last minute, hoping I somehow slip up. Not very likely at all.

B) Try to destroy the stage completely in time, AND make up the 20% difference. That's not happening, as it takes too long to destroy the stage.

C) Attempt to partly destroy the stage to reduce the area I can circle camp in, and hopefully manage to land enough hits to win the match.


As you can see, I've basically won the round. I didn't need to circle camp the whole time, just that one last little bit. I knew I had a faster character, all I have to do take a lead and then run. Heck, it wouldn't need to be just the last minute. I could do that every time I took a lead, forcing the opponent to spend time destroying the stage to get at me, which is time he's not fighting me. Hence why I believe any circle camping should equal an instant ban. It's just too easy to take advantage of, even if it's not permanent.

Since when does one minute equate to overcentralization?


Yes, it's very likely you lose, serves you right for getting into that circumstance, and you still can destroy the stage, or heck, use the entrance in the middle.


Closer to 30 seconds left actually, at a minute there's more then enough stage demolishing possibility.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It's would be an overcenteralization for any match that ended with the clock running out. It would likely be the goal of every Wario and MK on that stage. And it still doesn't change the fact that people who like to play gay to win will circle camp basically every time the house is in one piece. Not even the middle area cuts of the circle camping well enough.

Yes, you can repeatedly destroy the stage, but that is time you're forced to spend changing the stage to your benefit, instead of laying out % damage to retake the lead. If Luigi's Mansion was legal were I am, I would pick MK, even though I'm trash with him, land one nado, run away until the house was destroyed, dodge the opponent as much as possible, keep/retake the lead once the house is back, and then start circle camping again. Why? Because it would make winning much more easier. And I wouldn't be the only guy doing that.

Any possible amount of circle camping will be abused in tournaments. It's the way Brawl is played. Thus, you can not have any legal stages with that possibility.

 

[Sovereign]

Sakurai solved the problem with Circle Camping, real quick. Tripping.

 

[Overswarm]

Sakurai solved the problem with Circle Camping, real quick. Tripping.

This is technically true. I've chased a Sonic around with captain falcon a few times and won due to getting a free grab when he tripped.

 

[Linkshot]

Except there isn't air tripping.

I continue to say and believe this: Sonic's path to victory was intended to be running away and waiting for the Smash Ball. This is why he isn't viable in the SBR rules.

 

[deepseadiva]

Of course there's air tripping.

Confirmed by Yuna. Now with video proof.

 

[Linkshot]

Only Negative Zone can inflict it, iirc.

 

[Mic_128]

Mewtwo's down B can do it too if they're facing him and in the air when hit by it.

 

[Linkshot]

You can jump out of that one, though :O

Negative Zone's doesn't let you jump out. Best edgeguard evar.

 

[fkacyan]

The reason why circle camping is banned is because it's an infinite stall that by it's nature overcentralizes.


If it's temporary, it's not really circule camping.

Actually, circle camping isn't banned because many of the characters that can do it well, such as Fox, can run away while continuing to attack.

Banning a tactic like camping lasers would be stupid, so we just ban the stages that enable the camping.

 

[Number 28]

Corneria should be CP. I do not see why it´s banned.

The fina nd lasers are not that bad. Both are easy avoidable or lack high impact.

 

[zeldspazz]

It's probably more the wall for wall infinites.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Corneria should be CP. I do not see why it´s banned.

The fina nd lasers are not that bad. Both are easy avoidable or lack high impact.

its due to MK, diddy, and ness

MK and diddy due to camping (the bottom area)
Ness due to using the lasers to recover