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Official Stage Legality Discussion

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S623

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
183
Location
Homewood, IL
About castle siege being neutral... I was more in that camp, but yesterday I encoutered some kind of a bug with the last transformation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ycj1OUdUEs (at the end of the video)

I'm not saying it should be banned, I'm not even sure if this kind of glitch is reproducicble or if it has already been shown and people know how to avoid it. But would it happen in an important match, it would be quite bad.
Gah. Advertising bad luck? That's bad luck.

But I don't think that's reproducible in any form. I'll test it out later.

@ ITP Why do you think Hanenbow deserves counterpick? I've heard one or two people with this viewpoint, but they were typically idiots. I want to hear your reasoning.
 

I.T.P

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 24, 2005
Messages
874
Location
Hod Hasharon,Israel
Gah. Advertising bad luck? That's bad luck.

But I don't think that's reproducible in any form. I'll test it out later.

@ ITP Why do you think Hanenbow deserves counterpick? I've heard one or two people with this viewpoint, but they were typically idiots. I want to hear your reasoning.
Hanebow is a small platform only level, but even so the platforms are big enough to fight on, even though dashing is less releavant, nothing in this stage warrants a ban, stage mindgames like the water and twig are learnt and are a once-only deal, and the rest of the stage is actually pretty good, even though it does give an advantage to aerial based fighters, it still isn't damaging or game breaking in any way.
 

:034:

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 9, 2007
Messages
7,562
Location
Netherlands
Hanebow is a small platform only level, but even so the platforms are big enough to fight on, even though dashing is less releavant, nothing in this stage warrants a ban, stage mindgames like the water and twig are learnt and are a once-only deal, and the rest of the stage is actually pretty good, even though it does give an advantage to aerial based fighters, it still isn't damaging or game breaking in any way.
On top of that, it's a good counterpick against characters with a mostly ground-based game or characters with chaingrabs. I might be wrong in saying this, but I think it's beneficial to good spikers as well, because off the small platforms it's easier to get your opponent into the air and spike them.

It's a really bad stage for characters with low mobility and/or bad recovery such as Ganondorf and Bowser, so it's good for a counterpick.
 

nitro-blazer

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 22, 2005
Messages
1,399
Location
Donkey Kong.
Banned-And-No-One-Disagrees:

Rumble Falls
Not... really.

k, Lets take a look at Rumble falls.

Reasons to ban include:

-Walkoffs
-Spikes
-Walls
-Scrolling.

Lets go through these one by one


Walkoffs

Play the stage people. NONE of them are a walk off. I also tested it with various characters back throw as far off as I could, with proper Di, you won't die until +100%. Even then, the stage scrolls, so it's not like they can camp infinitely (If at all).

Spikes

Yeah, okay, they're powerful, and one of them can kill. However, they're always in the same place, the row of spikes that's easiest to hit can't really kill, one of them just shoots you onto a platform causing damage. Besides, previous stages have had OHKO hazards. Klaptrap in Jungle Japes was an OHKO in Melee (You can live it in Brawl some times...)

Now, I know that that was the ONLY problem with Jungle japes, whereas Rumble falls has other things to worry about ON TOP of the hazards, but Japes came randomly, whereas Rumble falls is ALWAYS in the same spot. ALWAYS.

Walls

Infinite grabs? No. Remember the scrolling thing? At worst they can suicide with you, losing a stock from both.

Scrolling

Here's another major reason. It scrolls. So does Rainbow Cruise, and Rumble falls usually maintains a slow speed, giving you warning when it will speed up. even then it's NOWHERE as bad as Icicle mountain.


But yeah, I realize it does have a COMBINATION of issues, but IMO it should at least be looked at... If not just for the fact it has some of the best music in the game.
 

NintendoTogepi

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
141
Not... really.

k, Lets take a look at Rumble falls.

Reasons to ban include:

-Walkoffs
-Spikes
-Walls
-Scrolling.

Lets go through these one by one


Walkoffs

Play the stage people. NONE of them are a walk off. I also tested it with various characters back throw as far off as I could, with proper Di, you won't die until +100%. Even then, the stage scrolls, so it's not like they can camp infinitely (If at all).

Spikes

Yeah, okay, they're powerful, and one of them can kill. However, they're always in the same place, the row of spikes that's easiest to hit can't really kill, one of them just shoots you onto a platform causing damage. Besides, previous stages have had OHKO hazards. Klaptrap in Jungle Japes was an OHKO in Melee (You can live it in Brawl some times...)

Now, I know that that was the ONLY problem with Jungle japes, whereas Rumble falls has other things to worry about ON TOP of the hazards, but Japes came randomly, whereas Rumble falls is ALWAYS in the same spot. ALWAYS.

Walls

Infinite grabs? No. Remember the scrolling thing? At worst they can suicide with you, losing a stock from both.

Scrolling

Here's another major reason. It scrolls. So does Rainbow Cruise, and Rumble falls usually maintains a slow speed, giving you warning when it will speed up. even then it's NOWHERE as bad as Icicle mountain.


But yeah, I realize it does have a COMBINATION of issues, but IMO it should at least be looked at... If not just for the fact it has some of the best music in the game.
It has walk offs. I was just playing it earlier and got smashed and KO'd into a walk off...
 

Mic_128

Wake up...
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BRoomer
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Don't forget to leave out being stuck under blocks that you can't jump up through.
 

:034:

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 9, 2007
Messages
7,562
Location
Netherlands
Are you guys really discussing Rumble Falls?

Really?

Well, anyway. Somebody up there compared it to Rainbow Cruise, well the big difference is that Rumble Falls speeds up. Sure, it gives a warning, but it speeds up and THAT'S the main gripe with this stage. It speeds up and this really distracts from the actual fight, leaves behind low-jump characters such as Bowser or Link to their death (and then three times more until they're dead).

So, in short:

- Scrolling disrupts gameplay.
- Leaves behind slow and low-jumping characters.
- Hazards.

Come on, guys, are we really discussing this? It's Icicle Mountain with hazards but it now tells you it's going faster.
 

Lightningmage

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Messages
378
Location
Tarboro, NC <Crew YGO>
Long post, beware. This is my feelings with stages. I'm in the boat which believes tournament evidence should support banning and not just "the colors are awkward" or "because ROB didn't get a stage, this stage should be banned."

• Battlefield - Neutral – This doesn’t need too much. Pretty balanced all around, obvious
• Battleship Halberd – Neutral– I’m in the Neutral boat with the Halberd. It has a death hazard at the very beginning if you don’t get on the platform before it takes off, but that would never be an issue unless you fell asleep while playing. The three stage hazards shouldn’t even a contest. The Laser shows a marker where it’s going and stops for a little over a second before firing. Even Bowser can get out of the way in time. The cannonball takes a long time to land and explode, and the arm doesn’t have a lot of knock back at all. The worst thing it could do is interrupt your lag attack of some kind. It seems random, but sometimes you can notice it favoring one character. Even if it hits, it doesn’t hurt until the high 100%s. Like Mic said, knock them into the hazards.
• Bridge of Eldin – Counter pick – Too early to ban things off of chain grabbing and walk-off ledges. A horn blows before the Bulbin appears, so that reduces the randomness. If the bomb appears, get out of dodge. If you happen to have no projectiles and Pit is on the other side, then shield and air dodge. You may get hit with a few, but far less than if you sat there and just tried to double-jumpRecover to the other side. Yet again, knock the opponent into the Bulbin. But really though, he’s easily avoided and seen coming.
• Castle Siege – Neutral – Stage 1 is simple in and of itself. Stage 2 is a walk-off and has projectile-interrupting statues, but those are not a problem. It renders projectile users to use something other than projectiles, which caters equally to both. Stage 3 isn’t much of an issue at all either.
• Delfino Plaza – Neutral – One part with walk-off ledges, but you can just run away for the time of the change. Other than that, no hazards and nothing to inhibit players.
• Distant Planet – Counter pick – While I personally do not like this stage, I’m not going to call a ban on that reason alone. The waterfall is hard to recover with, but far from impossible. You may be stuck a few times grabbing ledgefallingrecovergrabfalletc. but if the opponent tries to intervene he would most likely get caught up in it as well. The frog is instant death if you land on its nose or in its mouth, so don’t go over there. Also bottle caps serve as projectiles for those that do not have any, which gives those with nothing to throw a little something.
• Final Destination – Neutral – The ledges have the issue Battlefield had in Melee, but with the gravity different this time, you have more time to float to under the ledge instead of mashing UpB and such. Just be patient. Only a few select characters can’t recover well here (Snake is one of them, since his UpB sends him horizontally a bit, often back under the ledge)
• Frigate Orpheon – Neutral – The only hazard here is the stage flipping, and there is only a loud siren right before it to alert you. Simply full jumping (double to make sure) will ensure you’re safety. If the stage flips while you are recovering, adjust accordingly. Don’t know how the stage works? Play on it a while.
• Lylat Cruise – Neutral – Slight tilting on the stage itself, but otherwise as neutral and fair as anything else. If anything banned for online play due to the crazy background graphics.
• Mario Circuit – Counter pick another stage I don’t quite like, but don’t think it deserved to be banned. I could see this as neutral myself. Cars come predictably, don’t kill normally until 100+ unless you got hit by the jumping car while being in the air yourself. Nothing here really makes it ban-worthy
• Mushroomy Kingdom – Counter pick – 1-1 isn’t so bad. Sure it has the chain grab issue, but most of the time there will be some stage in the way to prevent a complete run over. Except in the beginning, but that can be alleviated by staying in the air. You know you’re coming here, so pick accordingly. 1-2 I can see as being bannable, as the blocks that impede your path are hard to get rid of, fight and stay alive simultaneously. It isn’t broken or groundbreaking, but it does interrupt the flow of the match more than 1-1. But honestly, not broken or totally unfair.
• New Pork City – BANNED – Really, no excuse needed. Hit and run tactics, the whole stage is a cave of life, and I’m sure someone somewhere is complaining about the Chimera
• Norfair – Counter pick – Lava from the background is the only part, and even then it doesn’t hurt, just interrupts whatever you were doing. Lava is predictable, and the lava on the sides comes slow enough to avoid it with ease. Shield/Air dodge the large lava wave and punishes the other person who is desperately trying to get in the capsule.
• PictoChat – Banned – Drawings, while static, never have a set appearance to them. Being able to change strategy on the fly is a sign of a good fighter, but overall takes away from the context of the match.
• Pokémon Stadium 2 - Neutral Stage changes, while happen randomly, don’t possess any huge threats. The wind arena favors aerial combatants, but all characters have at least one good aerial move. The electric floor can be hard to deal with, especially if Diddy is wreaking havoc with his bananas. But with 2 bananas and 4 platforms, you shouldn’t have an issue running on one of them.
• Port Town Aero Dive - Counter pick – Cars are seen in the background coming, and platforms do appear to help evading. Some parts of the stage don’t even have cars. Cars can indeed kill at silly percentages, but you should be able to avoid/dodge them. You can also try to spike/combo your opponent into the cars, or just defend when they try the same.
• Rumble Falls – Banned – While I think the stage should be banned, I honestly see the arguments for it to be counter picked. The stage scrolls at a controlled pace, except when the large red words Speed Up appear. But that doesn’t last long, so becoming a race to see who can live becomes the name of the game. Hell, if you’re feeling lucky you can try to get your opponent stuck in the stage to kill them. But if you aren’t careful, you’ll die yourself and be one stock shorter. The spike is a killer indeed, but it is only in one spot and easily avoided. The other spikes in the stage do pitiful damage and knock back until the normal kill zone, but again appear in the same spot. I’m not going to play it, but won’t be upset if it’s a counter pick.
• Shadow Moses Island – Counter pick – Can become a walk-off stage, so if you’re so worried about being chain grabbed then pick a character that can’t be. Even still, it takes a bit of work to knock the pillars down so you won’t have to worry about it for a while. Otherwise, this stage favors vertical killers and allows living at high percentages by DIing and teching into the pillars. Definitely favors certain characters over others, but this is the point of counter pick.
• Skyworld – Counter pick – Stage breaking is an issue, as well as being meteor spiked through the clouds. Also tether recoveries are a bit harder here, but if this were CP you could plan accordingly.
• Smashville – Neutral – Fit’s every description of a neutral stage. Simple, no hazards, equal playing field.
• Summit – Counter pick – I personally like this stage. I can see how it could be banned, but I honestly feel its CP at most. Fish can instant kill, and with the swimming mechanic can be quite difficult to escape if the opponent combos properly, but otherwise it’s really easy to avoid. Just get out the moment you hit the water and you should be fine. There is a period of floatiness that benefits aerial characters, so be ready for that. Also, the sides don’t have grab-able edges if I remember correctly. Just be prepared for that as well, especially at the point where the iceberg rises.
• WarioWare – banned – Indeed a fun stage to play on, but the randomness of powerups makes it unplayable. This one has been beaten pretty much to death
• Yoshi's Island – Neutral – No hazards, ghost platform operates similar to the cloud back in Melee, so it’s fitting as a neutral.
• 75m – Ban that **** - Maybe as a fun stage, but it isn’t fun even in that regard. A taste of nostalgia at most. No where near serious for a tournament as it has the same issue temple and Pork City have.
• Flat Zone 2 – Banned – Really small death zones and the stage can kill you at very early percents, especially if you aren’t careful. Pretty much the same as the Flat Zone in melee.
• Green Hill Zone – Counter pick – Stage destruction isn’t much of an issue, as some benefit from it while some do not (the point of counter picks.) The save spheres don’t kill til the normal kill percentages, and are a minor distraction at most. Odd stage, but no random factors are present and nothing that makes it obviously unfair to anyone makes this a good counter pick. I could even see this as Neutral, but no where near banned.
• Hanenbow – Counter – The stage itself is not bad. Leaves change angle when hit, so makes tether recoveries a tad difficult (just tether the outer edge, not the inner edge) and makes for some interesting combat for pit to hit a leaf so that it angles and the opponent misses the leaf. The water can be escaped, but it is not real water so don’t think your going to swim. The twig on the left side is a fake, so don’t even rely on it. The only issue here is that projectile spammers will run and shoot the entire match, but they can be caught up to with even the slowest characters.
• Luigi's Mansion – Counter – Large stage, but no stage hazards and nothing random at all happening here. The support beams for the house block projectiles like the statues in Castle Siege, but smart use of these will disable and projectile spammer quickly. Once the house comes apart it’s similar to final destination until the house rebuilds itself.
• Mario Bros. – Banned – See 75m. Only difference is that it is not as large, but hard to maneuver around with the long string of blocks and the turtles/crabs
• Pirate Ship – Counter – There are 4 hazards in this stage. The cyclone, bomb fortress, catapult and rock. The cyclone gives a temporary advantage to aerial based characters. Any character in the water at the time of takeoff are pretty much dead. The gravity is similar to Summit on the ship’s descent, so take advantage. The bombs are easily avoidable. Of course, you have to be paying attention to both yourself and the bomb trajectory. You control you character and should know what your character is doing based on the commands you input, so you can put full concentration on the bombs and getting our opponent into them while staying out. The catapult is annoying, but not so major. It just throws the course of the match off for about 3 seconds. When the ship hits the rock it’s a walk-off stage, giving the infamous chain grabbers a chance to shine. Also you can be spiked by the belly of the ship, but why would you want to swim under the ship? I think counter pick on this one.
• Spear Pillar – Banned – I like this stage a bit but believe it isn’t worthy of tournament play. The pokemon and their effects are random (they have 4 each I believe) which can do some crazy things, like make everyone super slow, destroy part of the stage, or shoot crescent beams across the stage. While this is great fun, it does put luck as a major decider of who wins the bout here.
• Brinstar –counter – Same as Melee. Acid raises the same every time, you see it rising and gives plenty of notice, and doesn’t kill until higher percentages. Same as melee.
• Corneria – Counter/Ban – Corneria is pretty much unchanged this go-around. But that isn’t for the best. The kill zones in this stage didn’t get changed or something. On the top of the fin, just about any decently-powered upward trajectory move is going to kill. Pretty much if you would normally be magnified you die. This is my impression of it anyway. If this is true, then I may see the ban for it, but if not, the vertical killers have a huge advantage here.
• Onett – Counter/Ban – Depends what happens with the chain grabbers and laser-lockers. The cars are easy to avoid, so that’s not really the issue. If repeated gayness occurs here, I think a ban will be put into place. But until it’s proven, CP.
• Rainbow Ride – Neutral/Counter – Same as melee. Slight side scrolling, but everything is controlled and not random.
• Temple – Banned – No explanation needed.
• Yoshi's Island (SSBM) –Counter pick – I never really understood why it was banned in Melee (except for CG and drill shining) but since both are out (except for CG) maybe this shouldn’t be banned anymore. Not sure on this one
• Big Blue – Banned – Hitting the road = dead for heavy characters, and even light characters can have a time. Stage scrolling isn’t an issue, and there are no random events. But it does hurt the heavy competitors a lot.
• Green Greens – Counter – Same in Melee. Helps some, hurts others.
• Jungle Japes – Counter – Same in melee. Even with the swimming mechanic, you usually can get out of the water assuming you didn’t jump in next to the zone line.
• Pokémon Stadium – Counter – Same as melee. Sure the windmill sucks, but you have another half of stage to play on. Just don’t get caught in it. And even if you do, spam an extremely quick move to get out and reverse the offensive. It’s not like you stay stunned for .1 seconds or anything.
 

BlackYoshi7

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
102
Location
Wisconsin/Illionis
Saying "pick a character that can't be chaingrabbed" isn't really a good argument to legalize a stage since DeDeDe can chaingrab most characters in the game and can chaingrab anyone against a wall.
 

Rhubarbo

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
2,035
Battle Ship Halberd has damaging hazards=Counterpick
Delfino Plaza+Castle Siege have walk-off sections=Counter pick

Walk-offs may be legal in Brawl, but all of them would be CPs.
 

Rhubarbo

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
2,035
Lightning mage, you have to understand that ANY hazard present that does damage automatically makes a stage counterpickable-banned if necessary.

BTW, Mushroomy Kingdom will definitely be banned.
 

AlexX

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
651
Does anyone have a current list as of now, I'm having a tourney at my house and people are asking for a stage list so there are no fights over stages. Can someone give me a list?
There isn't an official list, and probably won't be for some time.

My advice is to just kill off the obvious ones for now (meaning the Temple, New Pork City, Warioware, etc.) and wait to see if the chaingrabbing issue really is an issue before banning ones with walkoffs and such.
 

Crazy Hobo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
69
Location
MD
I say we keep neutrals as neutral. FD, Battlefield, yoshi's island, Lylat Cruise, and Smashville. All of these are very basic. Banned should be Hyrule Castle, Hanenbow becuase of their size, Both flat zones, 75m, mario bros, mario world, Jungle Japes, amd wario ware for making the stage more survival than fighting. The rest can be neutral.
 

sxiz

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
56
Hanenbow really isn't that big. I'd leave it as cp for aerial characters.
 

Pieman0920

Smash Master
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Jul 17, 2007
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3,300
Location
Right behind you with a knife.
Yeah, Hanenbow's only slightly bigger than a normal stage, and even so, it's not Temple or New Pork City's sizes that get them banned but rather the stalling you can do because of their loops.

And what's this about two Flat Zones? And since when do Jungle Japes or Yoshi's Island (SMW version) have to be more about surviving than fighting? (Or are you thinking of Rumble Falls and Mushroomy Kingdom?)
 

AlexX

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
651
What's stopping Luigi's Mansion from being neutral?
I believe the common argument for that is because that it's so large, running away is possible and that the pillars block projectiles. However, I honestly don't see how that can be such a big issue there since it's so easy to destroy the mansion... Heck, I've reduced the whole thing to rubble within seconds of starting a match by complete accident!
 

Solid Nuke

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
2
I believe the common argument for that is because that it's so large, running away is possible and that the pillars block projectiles. However, I honestly don't see how that can be such a big issue there since it's so easy to destroy the mansion... Heck, I've reduced the whole thing to rubble within seconds of starting a match by complete accident!
It's an old mansion after all... :p
 

Gonzoyo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
46
Location
East Coast Florida
I always thought that by general principle, any level that has any sort of hazard, special effect or any sort of strangeness going on should be excluded from competitive selection. Luigi's Mansion falls into this category due to the presence of the pillars.
 

Lightningmage

Smash Journeyman
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Jul 18, 2006
Messages
378
Location
Tarboro, NC <Crew YGO>
If that were the case, we would only have like 6 stages we could play on at most. But smash isn't a true fighting game so we have to look at the game in itself as far as stages. Some use the general rule "if you sit still and the stage kills you, it's banned." But I don't like this rule myself. Such as Halberd, all the obstacles are easily avoided (maybe not the claw, but it does minimal damage anyway.)

As far as my look on Melee Stadium, I don't know why I chose CP. I honestly did mean neutral.

My outlook on Skyworld has changed. The ability to stage spike on that level is incredibly ********. I don't know about banning it or not, but I definitely don't think it's as fair as I thought it was.

And I'm sure Mushroomy will be banned. I can honestly see how it would be banned. But I personally feel that it shouldn't (1-1 anyway. 1-2 definately banned) It scrolls slow enough to not be a major hazard. You can camp an edge and hope for a lucky throw/smash but it puts you at huge risk if you mess up, so it's risk vs reward. The stage hazards aren't bad to make it unfair to most characters.
 

Bacon Man11

Smash Journeyman
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Dec 17, 2007
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409
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Near Chicago
I have not been really keeping up with this thread, but would like to know if the average smasher is pro infinates for counter picks or against it.
 

ZenJestr

Smash Lord
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ZenJestr
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well...heres my list...

Neutral:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Pokemon Stadium

Counterpick:
Bridge of Eldin
Luigi's Mansion
Pirate Ship
Norfair
Castle Siege
Distant Planet
Mario Circuit
Pokemon Stadium 2
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses Island
Skyworld
Summit
Corneria
Green Greens
Green Hill Zone
Rainbow Ride
Brinstar
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Hanenbow
Onett

Banned:
Mushroomy Kingdom
PictoChat
Mario Bros.
75m
Spear Pillar
Temple
New Pork City
WarioWare, Inc.
Flat Zone 2
Port Town Aero Dive
Jungle Japes
Big Blue
 

AlexX

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
651
Who's going to pick Castle Siege if it's a counterpick? Who does it give an advantage to?

You could argue Dedede because of the walk-off edges, but look at it from his point of view: the walk-off areas of the stage exist during the 2 or 3-second changes from each part of the stage, and the second of the 3 parts. The 2-3 second changes is barely enough time for any major moves, let alone a chain-grab, so it won't help you much there. Part 2? What if the opponent camps out on the statues or upper-platforms? Waddle-dees can't be fired upwards, so to hang out near the side doesn't do much for you except just stall the match since the opponent can just wait until the stage shifts.

I'd also like to point out the same thing for Distant Planet. Hang out near the ledge to attempt an easy kill and the opponent can just wait until the rain comes to force you down, making it a strategy that does nothing but waste time. The stage in general doesn't give anyone any notable advantage over anyone else enough make it worth counter-picking with, either.

If someone knows of some flaw in Distant Planet that I'm missing, please tell me, but I really don't see the walk-off edge as being nearly as problematic as people make it out to be.
 

Eten

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 29, 2006
Messages
580
I'd counterpick Distant planet as Zelda, the platforms are ideal in catching people with usmashes and sweetspotted fairs/bairs, and recovery is easy as there is nothing to get stuck under. Zelda is too light to get chaingrabbed off the side by Dedede and I can Din's Fire anybody from anywhere on the course.

Castle Siege is rather camper unfriendly. The first stage has small size and an uneven layout, the second has goofy platform placement for it and statues that interfere, and all of the stage shifts can change up flow.

That said, it's not our job to line these stages up so they get a chance to be played. Neutral is neutral because they are NEUTRAL, banned is banned because they fit being banned. Counterpick gets everything else, it's up to the players to choose them for whatever reason.
 

AlexX

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
651
Castle Siege is rather camper unfriendly. The first stage has small size and an uneven layout, the second has goofy platform placement for it and statues that interfere, and all of the stage shifts can change up flow.
The shifting process only lasts a few seconds, and the statues can just be destroyed.

EDIT: To be clear, I realize that not every stage is going to be neutral, but I really do believe that Castle Siege is a neutral stage.
 

potemkant

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
7
well...heres my list...

Neutral:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Pokemon Stadium

Counterpick:
Bridge of Eldin
Luigi's Mansion
Pirate Ship
Norfair
Castle Siege
Distant Planet
Mario Circuit
Pokemon Stadium 2
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses Island
Skyworld
Summit
Corneria
Green Greens
Green Hill Zone
Rainbow Ride
Brinstar
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Hanenbow
Onett

Banned:
Mushroomy Kingdom
PictoChat
Mario Bros.
75m
Spear Pillar
Temple
New Pork City
WarioWare, Inc.
Flat Zone 2
Port Town Aero Dive
Jungle Japes
Big Blue
Rumble falls as counterpick?
 

Tomato

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
282
Location
Seattle, WA
Shouldn't Rainbow Cruise be banned, since it gives an advantage to good jumpers, not to mention, it moves a lot, so your primary focus is trying not to get caught off-screen, as opposed to fighting. Rumble Falls & Mushroomy Kingdom should be banned for the same reasons.
 

Eten

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 29, 2006
Messages
580
Isn't that a good thing?
Thinking that is bad or good is up to the individual. All the neutral stages are extremely consistent with very little variation between them that causes little effect on getting on of one them over another. Castle Siege's shift, statues, and walk-offs, do not fit this. The fact that it's camper unfriendly is simply me offering a reason why someone might want to choose that course as a counterpick.
 

S623

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
183
Location
Homewood, IL
Shouldn't Rainbow Cruise be banned, since it gives an advantage to good jumpers, not to mention, it moves a lot, so your primary focus is trying not to get caught off-screen, as opposed to fighting. Rumble Falls & Mushroomy Kingdom should be banned for the same reasons.
I think that Rainbow Cruise is OK because it moves slowly enough. The other two move relatively fast and have major hazards other than the movement.
 
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