Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Linkshot]

The walkoff isn't there forever, and every portion with a walkoff makes the walkoff avoidable.

 

[AvaricePanda]

No Kamikaze.

Not only is your stage list extremely conservative (RC, Orpheon, Delfino, and Halberd banworthy? LOL) but your arguments are one/two lined sentence, and you're making other people who think certain stages like Japes, Mansion, etc be banned look stupid because, believe it or not, people stereotype when they see your arguments and think, "Wow, conservative stage list people really aren't thinking, lol they're stupid."

Seriously. If you want anyone to take you in this thread seriously, POST SOME ACTUAL ARGUMENTS. Not just, "this is how a fighting game should be played," or "you can die at a low percent."

And Linkshot, I don't think Delfino is the most balanced, at least not the most consistently balanced. I understand where you're coming from with how each transformation favours certain characters and there's a pretty good balance between that, but each of those 20 second transformations tips the scales in a certain characters' favour, depending the character. I'm not arguing it shouldn't be a CP or anything, I'm just saying while if you combine all of the stages, overall it has balance, but consistently doesn't.

Also Bobson, that stereotype is just lol. Kamikaze is just being ignorant. Example of people stereotyping all conservative stage people just because one is being stupid. Other people in this thread who have conservative stage lists/ideas (Thio, kind of me) are actually giving decent arguments...

Also, testing with Distant Planet. I along with anyone else needs to play more competitive matches there and see what you find.

 

[bobson]

The walkoff isn't there forever, and every portion with a walkoff makes the walkoff avoidable.

Not true. There's one segment where the walkoff is on both sides and there are no platforms or walls to avoid it with.

 

[Kamikaze*]

No Kamikaze.

Not only is your stage list extremely conservative (RC, Orpheon, Delfino, and Halberd banworthy? LOL) but your arguments are one/two lined sentence, and you're making other people who think certain stages like Japes, Mansion, etc be banned look stupid because, believe it or not, people stereotype when they see your arguments and think, "Wow, conservative stage list people really aren't thinking, lol they're stupid."

Seriously. If you want anyone to take you in this thread seriously, POST SOME ACTUAL ARGUMENTS. Not just, "this is how a fighting game should be played," or "you can die at a low percent."

And Linkshot, I don't think Delfino is the most balanced, at least not the most consistently balanced. I understand where you're coming from with how each transformation favours certain characters and there's a pretty good balance between that, but each of those 20 second transformations tips the scales in a certain characters' favour, depending the character. I'm not arguing it shouldn't be a CP or anything, I'm just saying while if you combine all of the stages, overall it has balance, but consistently doesn't.

I forgot about orpheon. I'll keep that.

RC should be banned because it's flat our stupid. It may not have any hazards but you have to keep moving, meaning you can't focus on your opponent 100%. Characters with quick aerial characters dominate exteremely hard here leaving the more grounded ones in complete and utter misery and as I have said before. You can be killed at ridiculous ly low percents on this stage. You can literally be killed at 25% or lower. The following video is an example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwkgwOT3jj0

MK's shuttle loop can also KO at like 25. I've done it before.


Halberd. GIGANTIC HOMING CLAW OF DEATH ANYONE? You're screwed if you're grabbing someone and standing still because it comes out quick and can own you easily. and IIRC it can extend off stage and screw recovery. It also has a laser which is probably the easiest hazard you can possibly throw someone into along with norfair's wall of lava.

Eh, delfino can stay too I guess.

Then we have mansion. MK gays people to death who can't beat his tornado well here. Do I even have to mention how well snake and oli can camp there? If you try to destroy the ceiling they'll try to go aggro to stop you from doing so while your focus is not on them. Ask yourself. It it really right to have to fight ceilings instead of the other player?

Japes. Oh. My. God. Don't try to mention the time argument because you may be thrown into a croc when you are nowhere near one. Falco ***** every char in the game on this stage to a point where it isn't even funny. Laser Laser, phantasm, rinse, and repeat. Japes also has retardedly small horizontal blast zones. which means easy 40% kills.

 

[bigman40]

You can be killed at ridiculous ly low percents on this stage. You can literally be killed at 25% or lower. The following video is an example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwkgwOT3jj0

MK's shuttle loop can also KO at like 25. I've done it before.

Um....yeah....using videos that were made 4 months after release isn't a good way to prove things...

 

[AvaricePanda]

Laser can be SDId. Giant Homing claw of death doesn't kill as early as you're implying, it can easily be sheilded or avoided unless you're in a grab, and in that case, oh well. It's not a drastic enough hazard for the stage to be banworthy. It's not like the Klaptrap, which is an automatic OHKO, it's really easy to see coming and avoid, and your opponent, if he's trying to abuse the stage like that, will probably be really obvious and he'd be easy to avoid. Just run away for like 10 seconds and there you go.

RC shouldn't be banned, because you only really have to consciously move for a third of the stage (when you're rising up) and even then that's hardly conscious. You don't have to move to stay on the ship, and there's no way you can die from spacing out and not moving from the top. You'll just subconsciously move.

That third of the stage where you're moving more consciously than the other two isn't problematic, really. The possible close blast-zones shouldn't be a problem, are avoidable, and are similar to the ones on Castle Siege 2nd transformation or Delfino transformations. Yes, it benefits aerial characters, but that's the entire point of the stage. It's different. It's really aerial. It doesn't have hazards. It promotes a new style of gameplay and favours certain characters while not too drastically (the entire point of a CP), and the stage itself can't kill you.

 

[Kamikaze*]

Um....yeah....using videos that were made 4 months after release isn't a good way to prove things...

That doesn't mean marth can't find a way to set up a tipper f smash to slash the other player into next week on this stage.

 

[bigman40]

That doesn't mean marth can't find a way to set up a tipper f smash to slash the other player into next week on this stage.

Then it would be your fault for getting into that setup right? Cmon dude. You're not getting anywhere with those reasons.

 

[Linkshot]

When you land in the center of Delfino, you can camp on the slopes. D3 can't chaingrab down a slope. You also never have to approach him because if you're in the lead, he has to come to you, and if he's in the lead, you can just wait until the stage gives you better options.

 

[abhishekh]

Maybe certain stages should be banned for certain characters..?

So X character won't be able to use Y stage, because X receives an unfair advantage, like being able to not get hit at all.


Unless the opponent agreed to him using that stage against him :/


Or is that just over complicating things?

 

[bobson]

When you land in the center of Delfino, you can camp on the slopes. D3 can't chaingrab down a slope. You also never have to approach him because if you're in the lead, he has to come to you, and if he's in the lead, you can just wait until the stage gives you better options.

That's stretching it a bit. You're still at risk of being chaingrabbed up the slopes; Dedede can negate your safe ground simply by standing in the middle, and he has 20 seconds to land one grab on you.

 

[arsenic41]

That's stretching it a bit. You're still at risk of being chaingrabbed up the slopes; Dedede can negate your safe ground simply by standing in the middle, and he has 20 seconds to land one grab on you.

I'm just wondering, if chaingrabbing is such a huge deal on delfino. Why not just choose someone who can't be chaingrabbed? Like Falco?

 

[bobson]

I'm just wondering, if chaingrabbing is such a huge deal on delfino. Why not just choose someone who can't be chaingrabbed? Like Falco?

It's not really that big of a deal on the whole; it's just the one segment.

 

[Ryusuta]

And in addition, Falco CAN be chain grabbed; just not by DeDeDe as far as I know.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Pikachu's chaingrab does not abuse walk-offs (that's the one that works on Falco). The primary element (down throws) are in place. I have actually heard some people mention Pikachu and walk-offs and walls; it suggests to me some people make these claims automatically instead of actually thinking about how they work.

The only characters who can exploit walk-offs particularly effectively are King Dedede and Diddy Kong. Falco kinda can, but his chainthrow is percentage dependent and can't really walk very many characters big distances. Obviously jab locks and such can too, but you really shouldn't be hit with those often at all.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Ugh. I had a really long post about Distant Planet explaining all of its hazards and components, and reporting times when things appeared, and I accidentally hit backspace. I'm furious with myself right now, so I'm going to rewrite the post in a couple of hours.

But just to throw out the discussion again, Distant Planet. There are four main concerns with the stage I can think of; the rain, creature, throwable items, and slope, although really only the latter two are debatable, in my opinion.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

the slope alows for camping and i think CG going up, but when it rains that sections cut off. then the items i think are the biggest bonus, everyone can camp now.

 

[Ryusuta]

Pikachu's chaingrab does not abuse walk-offs (that's the one that works on Falco).

Yoshi can CG Falco.

 

[Linkshot]

The items definitely are not powerful enough to change the outcome of the battle. You throw it once. Your opponent shields. Now they have it.

You are never forced to land on the slope. The springy nature of the main platforms is definitely not on any other stage, so that alone is a reason it should be a CP.

 

[deepseadiva]

But just to throw out the discussion again, Distant Planet. There are four main concerns with the stage I can think of; the rain, creature, throwable items, and slope, although really only the latter two are debatable, in my opinion.

The rain is a stage feature. I'd call the balloon on Smashville a hazard before the rain on Distant Planet. The Bulb-thing is probably the most obvious "danger" in Brawl.

Those two points I'd never take seriously as aspects of the stage to ban.

I see nothing wrong with items on a stage though. "Everyone can camp"? Well, a lot of characters can camp already. I only see positives from giving everyone the equal opportunity to camp.

Not to mention there's only a few of them (1-2 every 30 seconds). And they're weak. And they only spawn in exact locations. I don't ever see the game revolving around "camping with bottle caps."

Nothing wrong there. *shrug*

The last point is... the walkoff. A temporary walk-off mind you. The rain comes once every minute.

 

[buenob]

The rain is a stage feature. I'd call the balloon on Smashville a hazard before the rain on Distant Planet

it's sentences like that which brings this type of discussion to a halting flame-war... lets please not say things we can't take back

 

[Linkshot]

If the Balloon/Shy Guys carried food even when you have all items set to off and none, would you ban the stage?

Serious question.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Yoshi can CG Falco.

Yes, it's true; it's my mistake for forgetting this. Actually quite a few characters have release grab chaingrabs on Meta Knight, Squirtle, and Lucas that I overlooked.

 

[Kamikaze*]

If the Balloon/Shy Guys carried food even when you have all items set to off and none, would you ban the stage?

Serious question.

In a heartbeat.

Maybe certain stages should be banned for certain characters..?

So X character won't be able to use Y stage, because X receives an unfair advantage, like being able to not get hit at all.


Unless the opponent agreed to him using that stage against him :/


Or is that just over complicating things?

Ban falco from japes.

 

[Kamikaze*]

EDIT: Double post. Please delete.

 

[deepseadiva]

it's sentences like that which brings this type of discussion to a halting flame-war... lets please not say things we can't take back

But it's random! D: D: D:

Either way, my point is the rain is harmless.

BENEFICIAL EVEN - makes the walkoff on DP temporary.

 

[AvaricePanda]

The rain doesn't come once every minute. I tested this (I was about to post it on the post that got erased) and I have times for the creature, rain, and flower.

Rain: 3:18-3:03, 2:25-2:00, 1:22-1:05, 0:28-:10.
Bottle caps: Approx. 16 spawned in 8 minutes.
Monster: I'll edit later and put the times in, lol, I'm so lazy atm.

Point is, even though the rain didn't come for me 4 and a half minutes into the match, it's showing that the rain comes inconsistently.

Anyway, I'm going to go over the four points of Distant Planet now.

Rain: This is a very minor problem, if a problem at all. Some could argue it's beneficial. While it does cause some characters with weak recoveries to get gimped, the ledge is still grabbable. And the rain prevents you from getting CGd off the walk off or getting abused from the walk-off.

Creature: This is amazingly easy to avoid. Even if you're on top of it's head, it takes a couple of seconds for it to eat you. Besides that, because of the angle of the main platform and the creature, people can't get thrown into it. Only situations I can think of that would make for someone getting eaten there is if you grab release a Snake out of a cypher. But basically, this isn't a viable problem either.

Bottle Caps: This is a reason the stage is unique, although it does pose some problems. Around 16 spawned, so you could throw them off the screen if you wanted to, but most would use them for their advantage. One problem I noted is the damage they do. Some do like 6%, others do like 15%. While one could argue it isn't fair because the stage is giving you items, utilizing it takes player skill, and it isn't an overwhelming advantage (sheild it and it's yours, gg).

The other "problem" I see is the fact that the items are giving people glide-toss approaches. But again, this is the reason why it's a CP. Characters with good glide-tosses can counterpick here and get a good, situational approach.

Slope: This is the main problem I see with this stage. There's a permanent walk-off slope (well technically not permanent because of the rain, but it's always there). D3 and Yoshi can potentially chaingrab you up the slope and kill you (notice I didn't say Falco or Diddy), but I wasn't able to test with a human so I don't know which characters are able to escape the CG because of the slope.

I didn't say Falco could really abuse it because his CG only works til like 40%. Anyone with adequate spacing just knows to not get grabbed by 40% regardless of the stage, and it's pretty easy to avoid that area of the stage until you get like 30%.

Diddy can't double banana lock because of the slope. It messes with his throw and bounce-off-opponent trajectories of the bananas.

So really, it's D3 and Yoshi that are the only real problems here. More testing would be needed to see how well they can abuse the stage though.

I've only gotten a couple of games in with this stage, but the gameplay didn't deteriorate to punishing with the slope. Granted, I died early from like a Bowser Fair because of the blast-zone, but that's not a reason to ban the stage.

Maybe I'm a little biased as this is one of my top 3 favourite stages (Smashville and PokeStadium 1 being the other two) but as of now, I think it could be a CP. But until people test D3 and other chaingrabs up the slope, see if they're escapable, see how gay gameplay gets when playing a D3 on this stage, etc, I can't know for sure.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

in the case of getting knocked into the things mouth, other than snake cypher release, i think the only other moves that could send you into it is Zeldas Dsmash and maybe Wolfs Dthrow?

also did different bottlecaps have different knockbacks too or just damage difference?

 

[AvaricePanda]

As far as I could tell (I just tinkered around a couple games against a level 1 CPU, then played 2 people on Wi-Fi on the stage), they all have the same knockback, just a damage difference. I might be wrong.

And yeah, that's what I'm thinking Zelda. There are hardly any moves that can force you into the things mouth...that's honestly never happened to me unless I intentionally wanted to SD lol.

 

[Linkshot]

The damage depends on how much you let them grow. 1 -> 5 -> 10. Same for knockback. I don't know if different colours affect anything.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i wonder if colors do affect anything..... like maybe if Olis standing under a red one he'll always pull red pikmin.

 

[Morrigan]

So you say the bluborb (or whatever) thing doesn't eat you immediately, it just waits a few secs...
I'm pretty sure I've been swallowed instantly once. I was on top and he was looking up with his mouth closed.

 

[buenob]

if you can seriously say that the balloon, which effects a ridiculously small and non-critical area, which only adds hit-lag to one attack, every approximately 10 seconds (i have no idea, pulled a number out of my ***) is LESS hazardous than the rain, which makes one of the two main platforms un-reachable, and if a battle were to be taking place there completely and utterly intrudes on the fight... well, to put it bluntly, I think you're wrong, and are either not playing the same game (i play to have fun, be the best, and win money, in that order) or just saying that to get a reaction

 

[deepseadiva]

..OR just making an obvious hyperbole.

I'm not serious buenob. I just wanted to illustrate the "harmless to the point of being compared to a balloon" thing.

 

[buenob]

or just saying that to get a reaction

it is not harmless to the point of the balloon... by your own remarks it turns a "permanent" walkoff into a "temporary" one... I use quotes because I still consider it to be a perm. walkoff, but by strict tehnicalities i suppose it's not

water is not even comparable to the balloon...

bah... this thread brings out the worst in me // people... sorry if i've been super negative in my recent posts... it's just that, pretty much everyone who posts here agrees that a starter-set of 7 "neutral" levels is the way to go, pretty much the only thing everyone agrees on, and I don't see any tournaments adopting it gets me down that our discussion, though insightful, appears to be falling on deaf ears

edit: one reason i think that, is because so much time is devoted to levels like distant planet, bramble falls and such, that most TO's // "pro" players just ignore any info that comes from here

 

[bobson]

The creature is called a Bulborb, by the way.

AND IT'S RUMBLE FALLS
BLAARGH

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I have never, ever seen a good argument to ban Distant Planet, unless "walk off is instant ban no matter what" counts. That frustrates me more than anything because it's really unfair to a stage that is not really like the other stages with walk-offs. I can see a focus on stages like Rumble Falls being obnoxious since that's not plausibly going to be legal anywhere (even if it's really not that bad), but Distant Planet really shouldn't be grouped in with that... I'm being serious in saying that if there's one stage you never gave a chance but should, it's Distant Planet.

Anyway, yeah, the starter situation is a big deal, and I wish we could get more discussion on it. Midwest-West currently has mostly 7 starters at their tournaments (though not always), but I think we're the only region that does that. The main thing is that I have frequently raised the challenge "can anyone name one matchup in which a 5 stage starter list produces more fair results than a 7 stage starter list?", and no one has done so or even responded to that. It's hard to have a discussion on it when a lot of us agree, and those who don't don't post about starters beyond occasionally expressing their desire for the starters to be an incredibly limited set of stages. I can say from experience that 7 is really a lot more fun than 5 while also being more fair; I just can't see any disadvantage to it.

Also, have you talked to your local TOs about the starters? In general, TOs want to make their rules along the lines of the what the local players want them to be, and by raising the issue to them you let them know that you have a strong opinion on the subject. I bring up stages all the time just so everyone knows that for my part there's a desire for more liberal rules across the board. I obviously am not completely changing everything like that, but I like to think I have some effect on their decision making. Of course you don't want stage rules as permissive as possible quite like I do, but pressing what you do want can only help.

 

[deepseadiva]

The main thing is that I have frequently raised the challenge "can anyone name one matchup in which a 5 stage starter list produces more fair results than a 7 stage starter list?", and no one has done so or even responded to that. It's hard to have a discussion on it when a lot of us agree, and those who don't don't post about starters beyond occasionally expressing their desire for the starters to be an incredibly limited set of stages. I can say from experience that 7 is really a lot more fun than 5 while also being more fair; I just can't see any disadvantage to it.

I think we've all already agreed to the 7 starters list.

No down-sides to the list, no less fair match-ups. There's nothing left to discuss really.

The problem I see is that I've only seen it discussed in this thread. Why don't you make a thread in Tournament Discussion AA? It needs promotion is all.

I plan on throwing it out to my regions ruleset at my next tourney hopefully. ^^

 

[Ryusuta]

AND IT'S RUMBLE FALLS
BLAARGH

I know. This has been irritating me, too. It's not like it's even that unclear. It's hard to mistake "Rumble" for "Bramble," unless your TV is REALLY ****ty.

Speaking of Rumble Falls, I promise I'm still working on uploading my video findings and hard data once I can figure out why the **** Dazzle isn't working correctly for me.

 

[bobson]

New stagelist is out.
Overall gist of it is all the "debatable" stages (except Pirate Ship, surprise surprise) were moved from counterpick to counter/banned, and Corneria, Green Hill Zone, Onett and Skyworld are all now banned.
Oh, and Rumble Falls and Big Blue are still banned, but we should've expected that anyway.

But hey, I wasn't expecting to get anywhere anyway.