Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Linkshot]

BoE is banned for a second reason: It's a very large stage and most matches will end up running the timer.

Mushroomy Kingdom becomes a very degenerate gameplay of "Who gets the uThrow first?"

 

[Kamikaze*]

It seems to me that probably the easiest way to unban a few of these banned stages is to just ban CG.

Is this something people can't live without? Does it really change people's playstyle? I guess if you're dedede and Falco and you use CG on a regular to frequent basis, but if its something you only use seldomly and still kick *** with these character's than who care's if CG is banned?

You ban CG then suddenly a few more stages can be used. People who depend on using CG will just need to practice using other viable strategies.

Also, I'm guessing this has been presented before, but if there's a thread on the issue of banning CG can someone post the link?

No. Just keep the stages banned.

 

[Linkshot]

Kamikaze, use real facts with your arguments, otherwise they come off as opinions, which mean nothing here.

 

[infomon]

What wall infinites have been proven? How many characters have wall infinites?

Also I'm surprised that the SBR's list put Norfair and Luigi's in C/B.....

 

[Kain6th]

No. Just keep the stages banned.

Ok, but did you see my second post? I agree that we shouldn't ban CG, but what if we just banned certain stages as counterpicks for those few characters?

 

[deepseadiva]

I could understand Luigi's, but Norfair's placement is just stupid.

Is really everyone's concern Jigglypuff? T____T

Anyways, I pitched the 7-starter list to the scene here in Denver and stirred some interest. We'll be doing some discussion, but the reaction is very positive so far.

 

[buenob]

the concern isn't just jiggs, the concern is that characters which have very high priority aerial attacks which either have lingering hitboxes or auto-snap to ledges are incredibly hard to approach... the question is, is it so hard that it doesn't matter how good you are, you can just compete with pro players regardless of your skill level by using that strategy?..

they say yes, yes it is that broken...

edit-> dk-planking is pretty hard to approach

 

[Kamikaze*]

Ok, but did you see my second post? I agree that we shouldn't ban CG, but what if we just banned certain stages as counterpicks for those few characters?

Ban them for all chars.

 

[Linkshot]

DK-Planking can be done on any single ledge, and during the entire process, DK is only vulnerable for 2 frames. There is actually less invulnerability when swapping ledges on Norfair, I think.

EDIT: Not enough "referees" for every station, Kamikaze.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Ban them for all chars.

but doesn't that mean banning FD? its so flat its easy to start CG there, especially for DDD.

 

[Kamikaze*]

but doesn't that mean banning FD? its so flat its easy to start CG there, especially for DDD.

FD doesn't have walk off or walls. Leave FD the hell alone. It's fine the way it is and is not moving to CP or banned.

 

[deepseadiva]

FD is too flat and gives an unfair advantage to characters.

BAN IT.

 

[Kamikaze*]

FD is too flat and gives an unfair advantage to characters.

BAN IT.

haha, but seriously. FD is fine. Why does everyone in this thread hate this stage so much?

I could understand Luigi's, but Norfair's placement is just stupid.

Is really everyone's concern Jigglypuff? T____T

Anyways, I pitched the 7-starter list to the scene here in Denver and stirred some interest. We'll be doing some discussion, but the reaction is very positive so far.

7 starters? My god, I'll bet you have like 22 counterpicks.

 

[Kamikaze*]

Double post. Disregard

 

[Linkshot]

7 Starters + 22 Counterpicks = 12 banned stages.

Sounds great to me.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

FD doesn't have walk off or walls. Leave FD the hell alone. It's fine the way it is and is not moving to CP or banned.

but its open for easy CG and camping, plus you said ban everystage that has CG. Falco and the IC just walk you to the edge and spike you down, not very hard to do.

i didn't say move it at all.

 

[Kamikaze*]

7 Starters + 22 Counterpicks = 12 banned stages.

Sounds great to me.

How about no?

 

[Kamikaze*]

but its open for easy CG and camping, plus you said ban everystage that has CG. Falco and the IC just walk you to the edge and spike you down, not very hard to do.

i didn't say move it at all.

Well, what I mean is ban stages with elements that allow CG's to be exploited heavily. Being flat isn't enough

 

[Linkshot]

It is heavily exploitable on FD. There are no platforms to allow you to avoid it. IC will kill you instantly on this stage, and Falco can seriously CG->Death.

 

[Kamikaze*]

It is heavily exploitable on FD. There are no platforms to allow you to avoid it. IC will kill you instantly on this stage, and Falco can seriously CG->Death.

Well we could always strike FD, if it bothers you that much >_>

 

[deepseadiva]

Well we could always strike FD

*claps*

Yay, an actual point.

You're actually the first person I've seen to disagree with 7 starters. Do you see something wrong with it?

 

[Kamikaze*]

*claps*

Yay, an actual point.

You're actually the first person I've seen to disagree with 7 starters. Do you see something wrong with it?

What stages do you have listed as starter?

 

[bobson]

You're actually the first person I've seen to disagree with 7 starters. Do you see something wrong with it?

I think his main disagreement is that allowing seven starters would mean there would be seven stages he couldn't ban.

Metaknight's tornado is a 0-death on top of Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2. I discovered this in a match that must've been very annoying for my opponent yesterday.

 

[Linkshot]

I actually have 14 stages banned on my Wii.

My Starters

Battlefield
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Yoshi's Island
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium
Castle Siege

My Banned
Spear Pillar
Mushroomy Kingdom (1-1 and 1-2)
Mario Circuit
Hanenbow
75m
Mario Bros.
Shadow Moses Island
Green Hill Zone
Temple
New Pork City
Bridge of Eldin
Wario Ware Inc
Summit
Flat Zone 2

 

[Kain6th]

Ban them for all chars.

But why? What's your argument?

 

[Kamikaze*]

But why? What's your argument?

Most of the stages with walls and walk offs are just ******** in gerenral. Eldin for example is far too ****ing big.

 

[Kain6th]

Most of the stages with walls and walk offs are just ******** in gerenral. Eldin for example is far too ****ing big.

Your powers of persuasion are flawless. What does your word "********" mean?

And can you please tell me what's wrong with stages like Green Hill Zone and Mario Circuit if they were simply banned as counterpicks for chaingrabbers?

 

[Linkshot]

Chaingrabbing is an unbeatable strategy. If you get grabbed, you've lost your stock. That's why it's banned.

 

[fkacyan]

I have never seen a 7-starter set that started on any of the stages past the original five-starter list; in fact, I've rarely seen a set start on Lylat or Yoshi's either.

And can you please tell me what's wrong with stages like Green Hill Zone and Mario Circuit if they were simply banned as counterpicks for chaingrabbers?

Mario Circuit: Cars. Also a small circle, though not quite as complete as a true circle has to be (i.e. solid wall).
Green Hill Zone: Checkpoints, disappearing stage (This wouldn't be an issue, except that the stage disappears at the start of the animation, but you can't tell the animation is happening until about 1/3 of the way through it).

Neither of the stages is CP-worthy even ignoring CGs.

Chaingrabbing is an unbeatable strategy. If you get grabbed, you've lost your stock. That's why it's banned.

I fail to see why this logic can't be applied to Jungle Japes, seeing as D3 can time a grab release into klaptraps fairly easily; that's another can of worms, though.

 

[Kain6th]

Chaingrabbing is an unbeatable strategy. If you get grabbed, you've lost your stock. That's why it's banned.

I know but that's why I say just ban those as counterpicks for those particular characters as a rule.

 

[Kain6th]

Mario Circuit: Cars. Also a small circle, though not quite as complete as a true circle has to be (i.e. solid wall).
Green Hill Zone: Checkpoints, disappearing stage (This wouldn't be an issue, except that the stage disappears at the start of the animation, but you can't tell the animation is happening until about 1/3 of the way through it).

Neither of the stages is CP-worthy even ignoring CGs.

Before I give you my counter-argument, I need to ask, are you for or against banning all except neutral stages?

 

[fkacyan]

Before I give you my counter-argument, I need to ask, are you for or against banning all except neutral stages?

All except neutrals? Against. Certain CPs need to be enabled for character matchup balance purposes.

 

[bobson]

I fail to see why this logic can't be applied to Jungle Japes, seeing as D3 can time a grab release into klaptraps fairly easily; that's another can of worms, though.

Well, the obvious counterpoint to this would be that he can't do that easily.

 

[Kamikaze*]

Before I give you my counter-argument, I need to ask, are you for or against banning all except neutral stages?

I sure as hell am

 

[deepseadiva]

Well, the obvious counterpoint to this would be that he can't do that easily.

Yep, plus the timer makes it equally possible for both to abuse and avoid.

There is no unfair advantage. A character, like Dedede I suppose, still receives an advantage sure, but it's not unfair in any sense. It's completly negated by the fact you have the same chance of avoiding it as he has of using it.

 

[fkacyan]

Yep, plus the timer makes it equally possible for both to abuse and avoid.

There is no unfair advantage. A character, like Dedede I suppose, still receives an advantage sure, but it's not unfair in any sense. It's completly negated by the fact you have the same chance of avoiding it as he has of using it.

I'm saying post-grab on CG-able characters. If we're talking about avoiding grabs, why can't they do that on the other stages?

 

[Linkshot]

Mario Circuit: When the cars come on the top platforms, you're forced to go down to the flat ground where D3 can have his way with you.

Green Hill Zone: No platforms. I don't think anything more needs to be said.

Jungle Japes: There's ground on the side and a platform in the middle. Stay on the platform until the klaptrap is gone.

 

[Kain6th]

All except neutrals? Against. Certain CPs need to be enabled for character matchup balance purposes.

Mario Circuit: Cars. Also a small circle, though not quite as complete as a true circle has to be (i.e. solid wall).
Green Hill Zone: Checkpoints, disappearing stage (This wouldn't be an issue, except that the stage disappears at the start of the animation, but you can't tell the animation is happening until about 1/3 of the way through it).

Neither of the stages is CP-worthy even ignoring CGs.

Ok 1st:
Mario Circuit- You say the cars (im assuming you mean they are too disadvantageous?). The Cars believe it or not can be avoided and in fact the stage warns you before they start coming. I think with this it depends more on the players then the stages on how well they can avoid them while still attacking each other effectively. Furthermore they can be destroyed. And the Circle thing doesn't even sound that bad at all, not compared to other stages.

Green Hill Zone: Check points? C'mon they can easily be avoided. If you know the stage you know you can simply air dodge it. The disappearing stage I'm unsure on, I'll test it myself later.

But neither of these points really gets at why these certain stages should be banned when others like Norfair, Rainbow Cruise, Pirate Ship, etc. are not. And keep in mind I'm arguing for simply banning these walk-off edge stages for CG characters. Unless of course you are for banning those stages I just mentioned?

 

[Linkshot]

One factor, albeit insanely rare, is the player's right to choose "Random Character".

 

[Kain6th]

One factor, albeit insanely rare, is the player's right to choose "Random Character".

In that case, simply ban them as counterpicks if a player chooses random also.