leafgreen386
Dirty camper
Yeah... it feels so... un-sheik-like. Making it connect was fine, but it didn't need the power boost. I'd rather see something done with her needles than to make fsmash a better killer.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
OFFICIAL Sheik in B+ Guide
- Thread starter teh_spamerer
- Start date
Lowering the knockback wouldnt be such a bad idea. lol It kills at 110% mostly.
Her needles are okay, not sure what would be done to it to make it.....i dunno....intresting-er?
If her fsmash was made to kill arounf 125% at the edge it would be better. Cuz her smash attacks do deserve to kill after all.
Her needles are okay, not sure what would be done to it to make it.....i dunno....intresting-er?
If her fsmash was made to kill arounf 125% at the edge it would be better. Cuz her smash attacks do deserve to kill after all.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
I'd really just like it if a perfect needle actually combo'd into a jab at zero. Slightly raise the base, and maybe homogenize the angles they send at (every odd numbered needle sends straight horizontal, and every even numbered needle sends at a 70 degree angle).
Sheik already has so many ways to safely damage at 0 that I don't see why she needs another. Fair auto cancels so well and even at 0% she has enough advantage to jab and it's safer on block, too. Homogenizing the angle of needles is fair enough to fix miss issues with multiple needles.
As far as Fsmash, it should never be killing *that* low because of how easy the move is to DI on reaction. You can't combo into it at kill percents, and the move is very easily punished on dodge or block by anyone because Sheik winds up right on top of you when it's over. It has plenty of risk for the improved kill power and is still significantly weaker when compared directly to an Fsmash such as Zelda's (or Peach's Fair at current). Fsmash is good now, but not omg too good. Its original knockback curve was actually quite lackluster even without DI, but +1 damage changed quite a bit.
As far as Fsmash, it should never be killing *that* low because of how easy the move is to DI on reaction. You can't combo into it at kill percents, and the move is very easily punished on dodge or block by anyone because Sheik winds up right on top of you when it's over. It has plenty of risk for the improved kill power and is still significantly weaker when compared directly to an Fsmash such as Zelda's (or Peach's Fair at current). Fsmash is good now, but not omg too good. Its original knockback curve was actually quite lackluster even without DI, but +1 damage changed quite a bit.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
Well, the thing is, right now, needle -> jab isn't legit against everyone till around 30 or so. And then everything else starts working at some point after that (needle -> grab isn't legit until well after 100, so even with the buff, it still wouldn't be legit until high percents). I don't see why she shouldn't be able to at least jab off of a needle at 0 (considering the move comes out on frame 2), instead of having to wait until 30% before being able to needle without being at risk of a counterattack even if you hit with good spacing and timing.
I'd much rather help her approach tools rather than boost her killing power.
Well, you dont really approach with needles. I use it to either help gimp and enemy, build damage, or to bait someone to get close. Sheik doesnt need any help approaching, her speed and aerials do the job for me. You can bait a reaction with her speed actually.
Plus the way im understanding what you're saying is that you're using needles up close then jabbing or grabbing.
Plus Sheik's Fsmash killing is a cool trade off for the fair decrease dont cha think? >8D YA!! HA!!!
I did a quick test out of curiosity.
Against most characters including Bowser, Marth, and Luigi, if Sheik lands 2 frames after connecting a needle on target, she gets +8 advantage at 0%. You have quite a window of fudge factor to get guaranteed jabs in, even at 0%. On shield, this number is +4, but shield stun is only related to the damage of the move. You can already needle-jab, easily.
In other words... I don't think BKB alterations are needed. We know that the needle canceling game from Melee was bork and it really doesn't need to return full force.
Against most characters including Bowser, Marth, and Luigi, if Sheik lands 2 frames after connecting a needle on target, she gets +8 advantage at 0%. You have quite a window of fudge factor to get guaranteed jabs in, even at 0%. On shield, this number is +4, but shield stun is only related to the damage of the move. You can already needle-jab, easily.
In other words... I don't think BKB alterations are needed. We know that the needle canceling game from Melee was bork and it really doesn't need to return full force.
Jman77
Smash Cadet
I think we should discuss match-ups that might give sheik difficulty first. I can really only think of marth and MK. Sheik is really good in brawl+ 0_o the snake/DDD matchups seem pretty even and i think sheik beats the three spacies pretty good. Any thoughts?
Marth isnt too troubling. The advantage may be his but Sheik has tools to stop him. Needles are you best friends against him. Metaknight, since I dont play too many metaknights, of the ones I played, an aggressive MK is the worse thing that could ever happen to you. Diddy is pretty hard to fight.
Where do we wanna start?
Where do we wanna start?
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
Hm... seems we were testing different things. To land only two frames after connecting a needle, you would need to be right on top of them, by which point you may as well just aerial. I'm really only talking about adding an extra frame or so of hitstun to the move, and that's not going to bring back the melee needle game.
What else do you want to hear? You can land one needle 7 frames before landing and get a jab in. If you throw more than 1 needle in the air that's very likely to happen without the first one actually being thrown at that range.
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
Got some videos of my Sheik.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8J4KXH_ukk - Palpi wasn't playing especially well here, but still a pretty good match. I was definitely playing well here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ON3khpeUL4 - Pretty good match.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwV4lNhLPgg - Nothing too special, but good match nonetheless. Ending got cut out, no idea why.
Comments?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8J4KXH_ukk - Palpi wasn't playing especially well here, but still a pretty good match. I was definitely playing well here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ON3khpeUL4 - Pretty good match.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwV4lNhLPgg - Nothing too special, but good match nonetheless. Ending got cut out, no idea why.
Comments?
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
Haha, yeah. It's just fun to run around and do the little pseudo-wavedash/crawldash thing. Although at times it gets me hit. Totally worth it
Yeah, that's fine.
Would it ever be possible to get a fix to crawldashing?
It's such a shame that it only gets the slide when running to the right and crawling to the left. Running left and crawling to the right gets no slide :\
I was playing random and it gave me Sheik; she was so much fun that I decided to pick her up. Such a nice flow to everything about her... too good
Only thing I don't like about her is that crawldashing only works one direction.
It's such a shame that it only gets the slide when running to the right and crawling to the left. Running left and crawling to the right gets no slide :\
I was playing random and it gave me Sheik; she was so much fun that I decided to pick her up. Such a nice flow to everything about her... too good
Only thing I don't like about her is that crawldashing only works one direction.
JCaesar
Smash Hero
It's being worked on Plum. It's not a super-high priority code though, but hopefully we'll get it eventually.
eisley
Smash Cadet
Here's a match between my brother and I. (don't mind his marth too much) 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMrJjJLT1Iw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMrJjJLT1Iw
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
This video inspired me to make a level 1 CPU combo videoHere's a match between my brother and I. (don't mind his marth too much)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMrJjJLT1Iw
lulz ouch.This video inspired me to make a level 1 CPU combo video
I wanted to make a CPU compliation vid to show the greatest moments of our beloved cpus. I'll admit that I got pwned pretty hard by them at times
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
eisley
Smash Cadet
Seeing as how my brother is no smash enthusiast, I'd say take that match with a grain of salt. lol Real life person would have been better than any CPU.
Anyways about the match up, I believe that even though marth has the power to keep sheik players on their toes, we must remember, sheik can tear a new one on marth's recovery when done correctly. You could easily get a stock advantage early on in the game because of sheik's ability to set up and bait marth into an all out edgeguard gimpfest. That and getting in on for close combat should not be too hard to do, once you get a grab, you should pressure him well enough to entice worry and allow for prediction and mindgames to ensue. Also you might occasionally want to live in your shield to prevent s Fsmash to the face which can be quite common amongst amateur marth players.
Remember, if a marth sword camps, throw some needles at the ho.
Anyways about the match up, I believe that even though marth has the power to keep sheik players on their toes, we must remember, sheik can tear a new one on marth's recovery when done correctly. You could easily get a stock advantage early on in the game because of sheik's ability to set up and bait marth into an all out edgeguard gimpfest. That and getting in on for close combat should not be too hard to do, once you get a grab, you should pressure him well enough to entice worry and allow for prediction and mindgames to ensue. Also you might occasionally want to live in your shield to prevent s Fsmash to the face which can be quite common amongst amateur marth players.
Remember, if a marth sword camps, throw some needles at the ho.
Jman77
Smash Cadet
This matchup is close to even in my opinion.. maybe slightly in Marth's favor for his ability to kill sheik relatively early. The main thing is to zone with your sword and avoid being grabbed. So I would say 55-45 Marth. Marth doesn't have many bad matchups in B+ if any at all =P
Sheik is becoming my favorite character to deal with Marth (I'm too stubborn to go MK ) and I'm going to agree that it is relatively even, but Marth's range is going to give him a slight edge. Though once Sheik finds momentum, I would say things shift in her favor as it always would. My Sheik is still new, but when I play Marth I just keep high pressure on him at all times. Tippers = bad, so if he doesn't have the room to space correctly then that's one less thing to worry about in my book.
Marth is going to have to constantly space aerials to keep Sheik away because he is combo/gimp bait for her. As soon as Marth leaves himself open for a split second Sheik is definitely quick enough to take advantage of it and start some hard punishment. Landing a jab (to jc grab), Ftilt, grab, Fair, Nair, the list goes on as to what can start ****...
It's not hard for Sheik to carry him offstage, and once he is off he is fairly easy to gimp. I find myself trying to hit him with needles as he double jumps to cancel that out, and without his jump he is forced to Up B and that's very easy for Sheik to gimp. You can hug the edge at the last second, but its easier to just hang off with the chain and not even have to worry about putting your body there, and you can always instantly get the invincibility frames if you ever need to. If he can get back safely, then I try to go for a Bair or Fair to send him back out where he is hopefully now without a double jump.
The biggest things Sheik needs to worry about are obvious. More range is the best thing Marth has to abuse here, and plenty of power on his tippers. Needles, fast shffl aerials, and tilts that lead into a devastating combo game are all going to keep pressure on Marth where they will have less time to think and become more prone to a mistake. I find that giving Marth any room to space his aerials is just what they need to play a good game of keep away, and Marth definitely wants to keep Sheik away.
We all know how good Sheik's pressure game is, and I have had the most success abusing that and not giving him room to breath. If Marth can't land tippers then there goes his power advantage as well. Marth also has a good edgeguarding game, but mixing it up between Up B and the chain makes his life so much harder and leaves Sheik living that much longer. Once you find the momentum it just unfolds into a pretty easy gimp. If Marth gets the momentum then Sheik is going to have a harder time finding an entrance and allowing Marth to maximize his range and power is bad.
) and I'm going to agree that it is relatively even, but Marth's range is going to give him a slight edge. Though once Sheik finds momentum, I would say things shift in her favor as it always would. My Sheik is still new, but when I play Marth I just keep high pressure on him at all times. Tippers = bad, so if he doesn't have the room to space correctly then that's one less thing to worry about in my book.Marth is going to have to constantly space aerials to keep Sheik away because he is combo/gimp bait for her. As soon as Marth leaves himself open for a split second Sheik is definitely quick enough to take advantage of it and start some hard punishment. Landing a jab (to jc grab), Ftilt, grab, Fair, Nair, the list goes on as to what can start ****...
It's not hard for Sheik to carry him offstage, and once he is off he is fairly easy to gimp. I find myself trying to hit him with needles as he double jumps to cancel that out, and without his jump he is forced to Up B and that's very easy for Sheik to gimp. You can hug the edge at the last second, but its easier to just hang off with the chain and not even have to worry about putting your body there, and you can always instantly get the invincibility frames if you ever need to. If he can get back safely, then I try to go for a Bair or Fair to send him back out where he is hopefully now without a double jump.
The biggest things Sheik needs to worry about are obvious. More range is the best thing Marth has to abuse here, and plenty of power on his tippers. Needles, fast shffl aerials, and tilts that lead into a devastating combo game are all going to keep pressure on Marth where they will have less time to think and become more prone to a mistake. I find that giving Marth any room to space his aerials is just what they need to play a good game of keep away, and Marth definitely wants to keep Sheik away.
We all know how good Sheik's pressure game is, and I have had the most success abusing that and not giving him room to breath. If Marth can't land tippers then there goes his power advantage as well. Marth also has a good edgeguarding game, but mixing it up between Up B and the chain makes his life so much harder and leaves Sheik living that much longer. Once you find the momentum it just unfolds into a pretty easy gimp. If Marth gets the momentum then Sheik is going to have a harder time finding an entrance and allowing Marth to maximize his range and power is bad.
Yea I would say the advantage goes slightly to him due to obvious reasons. But I havent faced too many Marth's in B+ (two players is all I have to go with) but the general strategy worked on them both. I even feint my own approaches and if they defend its a free grab into a combo off the stage. But this manuever is risky on reckless players who constantly attack. But yea I would say the match is just about even
Here some Friedly Matches.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDMOt3KCILU Match 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnPOQ6k9T7w Match 2
My brother is still learning some things,so,dont blame him. =X
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDMOt3KCILU Match 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnPOQ6k9T7w Match 2
My brother is still learning some things,so,dont blame him. =X
I dont even know if I should put those in the guide. You just plain ol beat the **** outta him man
eisley
Smash Cadet
Sheik needs moar player vids!
eisley
Smash Cadet
Here's another me vs a marth vid:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqeiSdweimE
the match is alright but mostly it shows how even in unskilled hands, a tipper can wreck a sheik along with other things such as marth edge guarding against sheik.
the match is alright but mostly it shows how even in unskilled hands, a tipper can wreck a sheik along with other things such as marth edge guarding against sheik.
Palpi
Smash Hero
Yes, but against a good marth.
mitch2302
Smash Journeyman
any way of giving sheik's needle mechanics back to her from melee? the whole hold B to charge and release to let go?
Andarel
Smash Apprentice
Isn't tap-once-charge, tap-again-release just...more effective than the way it was in Melee? Since you can store a full charge for needles.
It might be possible, but not sure why you'd want it.
It might be possible, but not sure why you'd want it.
JCaesar
Smash Hero
You could store needles in Melee too. The extra tap is just an unnecessary button press. It's not a big deal either way though.
Andarel
Smash Apprentice
JCaesar - Really? It's been so long since I played Melee, I've forgotten...
Anyhow, I like tap-twice and it's not really a huge deal either way =\
Anyhow, I like tap-twice and it's not really a huge deal either way =\
Which is why it'd be a waste of time adding a code for it eh? EH?