OFFICIAL Sheik in B+ Guide

[Yingyay]

I recently put yup some videos of my sheik. It needs some work, but enjoy.

Thunderhorse (Falco) vs quinnydinny (Sheik) Match 1 round 1
Thunderhorse (Falco) vs quinnydinny (Sheik) Match 1 round 2
CK (Marth) vs quinnydinny (Sheik) Match 1 round 1
CK (Marth) vs quinnydinny (Sheik) Match 1 round 2
CK (Marth) vs quinnydinny (Sheik) Match 2 round 1
CK (Marth) vs quinnydinny (Sheik) Match 2 round 2

Iight. I added your videos.

Thunderhorse's Falco is pretty good. Your sheik needs work tho, you need to be faster and add more pressure. Which brings up A whole new matchup discussion.

Falco​

The bird who cant fly but can fire a pistol....IN MID-AIR......TWICE!!!!
Discuss

 

[Good Ol' Tree]

I think the Falco match-up may be 65-35 in our favor.

It's pretty easy for us to dodge his lasers with CCing and we have complete gimping power over him but Falco has a lot of tricksies, like his shine and that Dair is so sexy.

 

[Yingyay]

I think that matchup ratio is a bit closer that that.
Falco has so many approaches (that reflector is one now........>_> like he needed it in the first place)
His utilt is stupid fast and barely has cooldown.
He can shutdown our appriaches with lasers and combo right after them.
If we do find an opening, we gotta gimp him as quick as possible without fail.
I would say 40-60 Falco's favor.

 

[JCaesar]

Have you played the latest nightly build? Sheik's ftilt is wtfhax broken again.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I'm still trying to test the abusability of Sheik's ftilt right now. Previously it had some negative feedback with the angle being low (70) and the KB too far at higher percents to be able to combo out of. The KBG now might be too low.

 

[jalued]

I'm still trying to test the abusability of Sheik's ftilt right now. Previously it had some negative feedback with the angle being low (70) and the KB too far at higher percents to be able to combo out of. The KBG now might be too low.

i havnt actually tried the new ftilt out, but just from the principle i have a prob with it. i once remember chatting to someone, and i was playing sheik against a mate, who was at about 170%...and i just couldnt kill him!! casue nothing would setup to a kill...

but he remarked, i shouldnt have ever let him get up to that % with sheik.

and that is right, if u arnt good enough to kill an opponent before stupidly high %, then u should be punished for it. sheik is perfectly fine as she is, doesnt need any buffs at all. dont know why u are even thinking of giving her any atm, shes already high tier.

oh plus dont want ftilt spam being her main game...brawl sheik had enough of that for at least 20 lifetimes haha

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Sheik doesn't have a way to kill before "stupidly high percents" against against who are actually good at DI regardless. None of her applicable moves are that strong enough, especially not her meh-ish aerials.

 

[It's a forum]

How do I start as Sheik?
My CSS only has Zelda instead of the Zelda/Sheik one. Does holding A still work?

 

[Yingyay]

Sheik doesn't have a way to kill before "stupidly high percents" against against who are actually good at DI regardless. None of her applicable moves are that strong enough, especially not her meh-ish aerials.

^^^ This guy knows whta he's talking about. Whats the point of ombing into 30000% if none of your moves are reliable for killing?
Alot of "top tier" characters have better setups into kill moves and better gimp moves.
Falco can utilt whenever and however he wants into a dair or back air.
Sheik got, dthorw hope for a fair to hit if they know how to DI

Speaking of which, more discussing on Falco matchup and less on buffs and nerfs

 

[Chaos Reign]

I'm not sure of a matchup ratio, but I think this is in Falco's favor. Falco can combo well, and he actually has ways to get his killing moves to connect, something that Sheik has a hard time doing. Falco can also constantly reposition himself while shooting his lasers, limiting Sheik's approach options(on the other hand, Sheik is pretty fast, so she can overcome this somewhat unless Falco mixes up his spam game).

Essentially Falco's lasers(and reflector) means that you will have to do the approaching most of the time. Your needles don't travel as far as Falco's lasers do horizontally, especially if you are moving around in the air(they are fast though, so it might throw Falco off if you use them occasionally).

Once Sheik gets in there, you can get some good combos off of him since he's a fastfaller, but it won't do you much good unless you can force him to use his up-B. His double jump helps him a lot, so try to have him jump into your needles. If he tries to come back on the stage with side-B, shooting needles at him might work, but I'm not sure.

For stages, ones that are small with platforms are nice. The smaller the stage, the less distance we need to cover to get to him, and the less effort we need to spend to get him off the stage. The platforms help expand our approach options, but unfortunately Falco can punish us for staying on them with uptilt. So maybe Battlefield? I'm actually not that good with stage advice, so you can probably just not listen to this part >.>

 

[Yingyay]

I'm not sure of a matchup ratio, but I think this is in Falco's favor. Falco can combo well, and he actually has ways to get his killing moves to connect, something that Sheik has a hard time doing. Falco can also constantly reposition himself while shooting his lasers, limiting Sheik's approach options(on the other hand, Sheik is pretty fast, so she can overcome this somewhat unless Falco mixes up his spam game).

Essentially Falco's lasers(and reflector) means that you will have to do the approaching most of the time. Your needles don't travel as far as Falco's lasers do horizontally, especially if you are moving around in the air(they are fast though, so it might throw Falco off if you use them occasionally).

Once Sheik gets in there, you can get some good combos off of him since he's a fastfaller, but it won't do you much good unless you can force him to use his up-B. His double jump helps him a lot, so try to have him jump into your needles. If he tries to come back on the stage with side-B, shooting needles at him might work, but I'm not sure.

For stages, ones that are small with platforms are nice. The smaller the stage, the less distance we need to cover to get to him, and the less effort we need to spend to get him off the stage. The platforms help expand our approach options, but unfortunately Falco can punish us for staying on them with uptilt. So maybe Battlefield? I'm actually not that good with stage advice, so you can probably just not listen to this part >.>

^^^ showing that a low post count doesn't make you a noob. You obviously know your stuff.
As of now, Im assuming that the falco sheik matchup is in his favor. I guess I'll drop the discussion on Sunday

 

[jalued]

Sheik doesn't have a way to kill before "stupidly high percents" against against who are actually good at DI regardless. None of her applicable moves are that strong enough, especially not her meh-ish aerials.

so her great edgeguarding means nothing??

 

[Yingyay]

Honestly, whats so great about Sheik edguarding you as opposed to falco, ZSS, samus, tlink, squirtle, Mario, or Marth? She has a tether, big deal. Needles? So what? Its not like no one else cant edge guard just as good.

 

[Mattnumbers]

As of right now, I think sheik is fine, if we figure out later that she is low tier (which would really surprise me) then we shouldn't buff her at all. Trade offs would be fine though.

 

[leafgreen386]

In general, sheik likes platform stages. Also in general, falco doesn't like platform stages. Therefore, in general, pick platform stages!

Battlefield and WW are probably some of my favourite levels as sheik (especially WW, which is probably sheik's best stage) and their platforms can help you get around his laser game, although they also help his combo game, so it's not foolproof. The platforms on these stages just help her so much for stringing together combos. FD is probably the worst stage for this matchup and should be your ban against a falco player just about every time. Smashville is overall pretty meh. The platform doesn't really do much when its over the stage, for either player, since it spends the majority of its time on the sides. Occasionally it'll create platform traps, but the sides are where you really need to be aware of its positioning. It can provide both a safe-haven on a return for a character or set that character up to easily be edgeguarded during their lag, depending on how well the edgeguarder covers their options. Since the platform on SV rarely actually acts like a standard platform, I'd argue that this stage favours falco more than sheik and should probably be avoided in a counterpicking situation. YI is nice if only because it screws up his laser game more than any other stage, with the stage itself absorbing shots for you when it's positioned right. The height and angle of YI's platform can be... inconvenient at times, but sheik is typically pretty good at ****** opponents stuck on a platform above her, and I believe you can do some aerial tricks by jumping from higher ground to lower ground on this stage. Lylatt is the ultimate mixed bag stage. The three platforms don't offer any particular advantage to a 2 platform setup with a 3rd higher platform, and tends to force play to be more grounded than other platform stages. Sheik's comboing is most certainly helped here, but I don't think it's helped as much as on BF or WW, where she can be all over the stage comboing you. When the stage is tilted down and falco is uphill from you, falco pretty much hates you, since pretty much everything he has is less effective. When the stage is tilted up and falco is downhill from you, you can pull off some aerial tricks on your approach, but his laser camping and general approach options become so much more effective, you'll want to take to the platforms, which while sheik may love platforms, she typically likes it when the opponent is the one on them. The tilting can also drastically screw up falco's recovery (and yours, too, if you get careless), so all in all, it's probably a fairly solid cpick against him, but not my first choice.

edit: I forgot PS2. The platforms on PS2 aren't nearly as handy as on stages where the platforms cover the whole stage, causing the stage to play more like a flat stage than a platform stage, although the platform traps here can still be nice. Falco probably likes this stage better than you.

 

[quinnydinny]

I would have guess that the Sheik verses Falco is a pretty even match from what I have seen and experienced. My best friend mains Falco and though he out classes me in general I still see how both Falco and Sheik have a lot going for them Falco is extremely hard to approach with his extremely fast jab coming out frame 2 and its ability to combo into a grab or make you pull anyway and pull you in with a shine. Falco also has a semi chain like grab where he downthrows then jabs and then grabs you again. He can do this several times at lower percents and also bring you back toward him with the shine at later percents. Falco lasers prevent a whole lot of direct approach options although dash canceled down tilt seems to do a nice job and can even set up for and up smash. Most of the time I find that I am forced into the air by the shear power of lasers and Falco's dash canceled jab (way too good). Approaching Falco in the air from above is a pretty bad for sheik though as falco's up tilt is extremely fast and out classes just about everything you to hit him with. Sheik's aerials are also pretty punishable by shield grab. I find it is often better to aim a little behind Falco for a back air then us sheiks speed to get some hits in before Falco can set back up a more defensive posture. Needles are amazing against Falco and can often get you some nice gimps on falco though edge guarding and causing him to use fire bird which can lead to so nice up smashes. Falco's laser don't have as much of an effect on sheiks recovery but sheik is fairly easily guarded by Falco especially at angles causes by his down smash.

I also do not agree that platform stages are the best way to go. Falco can **** you hard if you are get on a platform above him. His neutral air is nasty and can hit you several times if you don't get off that platform fast. Platforms do make it easier to hit Sheiks aerials but I also feel that it can hinder so of her combo ability as she and she doesn't have a any really good ground moves to use on some on the platform above her which isn't always the best thing against a character with a powerful down air.

 

[Yingyay]

@quinny. All the stuff you mentioned is a lot of reasons why Falco has an advantage. I like Leaf's stage explanation I might use it in the guide. So does everyone agree 45/55 falco or 50/50?

 

[JCaesar]

Sheik doesn't have a way to kill before "stupidly high percents" against against who are actually good at DI regardless. None of her applicable moves are that strong enough, especially not her meh-ish aerials.

So why not buff her fair or uair a bit? They are both easy to combo into with dthrow or the 4.1 ftilt even at high %s. That seems like a much more satisfactory solution to me than to make her ftilt ridiculous again just so she can combo into usmash at high %s.

I dunno, I felt that Sheik was great in 4.1, maybe not quite top 10 material but definitely tourney viable, especially if you were willing to take advantage of her alter-ego.

Honestly, whats so great about Sheik edguarding you as opposed to falco, ZSS, samus, tlink, squirtle, Mario, or Marth? She has a tether, big deal. Needles? So what? Its not like no one else cant edge guard just as good.

Her tether is part of what makes her an awesome edgeguarder. She can possess the ledge without having her hurtbox near it, and she can instantly get invincibility at any time, which she can use to edgehog or ledgehop bair (or if you wanna get fancy, walljump fair). It also just lets her instantly snap to the ledge as long as she's somewhere in the vicinity, which is incredibly helpful. The needles are good for stealing 2nd jumps, which won't work against a good player but you can at least force them to use their 2nd jump early.

But yeah, what I mean is, Sheik is good as an aggressive edgeguarder. She's not the type who sits near the edge spamming dtilts or something.

 

[Yingyay]

@JCeasar: I've been saying to buff her Fair just a bit but no. She apparently is'nt supposed to kill until 350%. (Joke) Plus other characters can edge guard as well as Sheik can too. An uair buff would make sense because she's unsafe when it connects untill the late 50s. More knockback and no changes to her frame speed. 300th POST!!!!

 

[JCaesar]

Only a few characters can aggressively edgeguard better than Sheik. imo, only ROB and MK, and maaaaybe Marth, Squirtle, and Charizard, but that's debatable.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

The fair is already in a good spot right now.
Uair could possibly use something, like frames cut off the end, higher angle, etc.
You can't combo ftilt-Usmash into killing percents against the vast majority of characters except with the foot hit.

I'm currently working on a tweak for Fsmash right now so both hits link consistently, and possibly making the move hit somewhat harder, too.

 

[JCaesar]

I thought the whole purpose of the new ftilt change was to facilitate usmash kills. I really don't like the new ftilt which is why I suggested that if you think she needs better KO options, just buff her fair/uair instead, since she can already reliably set them up.

But like I said before, I loved how she was in 4.1 myself and I didn't really think she needed anything. But you're the expert so do whatever you feel needs to be done. I just hope there's an alternative to the current **** ftilt.

A working fsmash would be pretty cool though. It's especially useful with her pseudo-wavedash now.

 

[Yingyay]

Fair: Meh I dont think a lilttle bit more power would hurt 125kbg wouldnt be too huge.
Uair: The tip should be able to kill at around 140% on midweights.
Fsmash: I suggested giving the 1st hit no knockback along with Tlink but I guess Sheik was ignored. Since its harder to catch people with, a bit of killing power wont hurt.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Easy Usmash kills and locking capacity from the new ftilt are definitive barriers that *must* be made for it. You can't do either against an opponent who's aware, except ftilt-Usmash fast fallers who already drift into ridiculous setups from every character anyway.

Previous complaints from the floating around IRC about ftilt were that the two hits were too different and were a liability with how fickle the hitboxes were. This bring the two hits' KB closer to each other, but still requiring different follow ups.

Thankfully it's just public nightly testing. The inner hit of ftilt will likely be adjusted to 60 from 50 to make sure killing Usmashes don't work, but aerial follow ups do.

-About Fsmash... you can't quite give it no KB like the minimal hits of Zelda's smashes because of the larger time gap in between the hits. Different friction and floatiness among targets is also a roadblock for finding proper stats because of the position the second hit links from the first. You need to give it enough KB so it actually has enough stun to combo, but not too much so that it hits them out of range of the second kick. I'm trying to do with without touching the speed to leave it as a weak point.

 

[Yingyay]

@Jceasar
Samus can.
-tether edge-grab
-wall jump meteor
-(not sure about this one) she can bomb edgestall.
-Charge shot to punish missed edge-sweetspots

Marth
-counter is kinda like fox's shine but less reliable unless you know the timing of the recovery
-Can spike a bad-recovery.

Squirlte
-doesnt needed to edge hog because a couple of aerials into a uair and you die. (is squirtle supposed to be this powerful for a light character tho?)

Rob.....idk really.

MK can do everything
-Dimension cape to the edge
-Drill anyone trying to recovery
-Dair

Fox
-Shine
-shine stall
-SideB stall

Thats all I got on a empty stomach v_v

@Ryoko
Fsmash: Ok so youre tinkering with the first hit's KB. 0 kb wont work because the hits are too close together......then wouldnt more damage cause the first hit to have more hitstun? Im thinking that if it was possible, you could make it like Snake's vBrawl Ftilt. It wouldnt be broken becaise you cant cancel the fsmash. how about it?

 

[JCaesar]

Yingyay, I'm not seeing how any of that is better than Sheik's options on the edge. (assuming your opponent knows what they are doing and knows how to sweetspot with their character) Samus can only really edgeguard with a well-timed dair or the occasional bomb tricksies, and is too slow to take advantage of her tetherhogging. Marth edgeguards best by jumping out with fairs and bairs, or waiting at the edge with dtilts, not spiking (unless he combos into it) or countering. Squirtle, same thing, along with ledgehopped dairs. ROB, same thing, but with his up-B he can edgeguard offstage extremely well. MK, same as ROB, but he uses dair to gimp instead, and up-B if they're in a bad position. Fox can still shinespike somewhat, but overall he sucks at edgeguarding, not that he ever needs to.

Ryoko, I don't understand the purpose of the ftilt changes if they aren't meant to combo into her kill moves. In 4.1 it comboed into her aerials just fine against most characters. The latest build just really rewards single move spam, since it's fairly safe on block and even if they DI out of it, there's no reason not to chase with more ftilts. In 4.1, you almost always had to follow up with an aerial after 1 or 2 ftilts, and it rewarded creativity in your attack strings. i.e.:
4.1: ftilt ftilt fair dashattack nair uair...
Latest nightly build: ftilt ftilt ftilt utilt ftilt ftilt utilt chase ftilt ftilt...

Not literally and obviously DI dependent but that's kinda what it feels like now.

 

[Yingyay]

I was listing options other characters had. I also dont like the spammy ftilt, if they slightly lowered the knockback from the previous set then Im guessing things would be better.

 

[JCaesar]

Ah I thought you were saying all those characters are better edgeguarders than Sheik, which I just can't agree with.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

It was also suggested that the outer hit be homogenized to the inner hit.
The challenge of making Sheik's ftilt consistent yet not tremendously gay is a heavy one. It's still nowhere near as silly as it was originally.

 

[JCaesar]

Oh I agree, but I still don't understand what was wrong with her 4.1 ftilt. I'm sorry for being so annoying about this but Sheik is one of my favorite characters to play right now and I'm trying to get mine tournament-worthy, so I'd just like to know what your plans are for her and why you don't like her 4.1 ftilt, which I thought was fine. If you'd rather continue this conversation in the backroom, we can do that.

 

[Yingyay]

If the fsmash is giving you too much trouble then leave it I guess.
Oh and I just had an idea about Sheik's dsmash. You know how the dsmash hits multiple times from behind at times? What if it did that in front too but sent the opponent flying on the last hit?
Oh and I take it the Falco discussion is over so I'll wrap it up in about 30 minutes.

 

[leafgreen386]

I also do not agree that platform stages are the best way to go. Falco can **** you hard if you are get on a platform above him. His neutral air is nasty and can hit you several times if you don't get off that platform fast. Platforms do make it easier to hit Sheiks aerials but I also feel that it can hinder so of her combo ability as she and she doesn't have a any really good ground moves to use on some on the platform above her which isn't always the best thing against a character with a powerful down air.

The thing with platforms is that sheik's mobility on platform stages is some of the best in the game. Her FJ fair -> nair -> land on platform -> continue combo is one of her best combo options, and her ability to follow up after a FJ fair -> nair is greatly diminished on non-platform stages. A major benefit of WW is that you can keep bringing your opponent up as you combo them instead of having to break off and try to mindgame another hit in when they come down.

Why are you trying to use ground moves on an opponent on the platform above you? Her aerials do a great job of ****** them as it is. I was a fox main in melee, and lemme tell you how often I used a ground move to hit someone on a platform above me: Never. And yet, I still consistently ***** opponents on a platform above me due to fox having good aerials and good platform techchasing. It's the same deal in brawl+ with sheik. She has solid aerials that all set up a foe for more **** when they're stuck on a platform above her.

 

[Yingyay]

I updated the guide to include Falco.
In the week I guess we'll get started on another character or something else to talk about lol

 

[leafgreen386]

I updated the guide to include Falco.
In the week I guess we'll get started on another character or something else to talk about lol

The wolf thread is currently discussing their matchup with us, so I suggest we do the same.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

/yawn

Today's build brings you a less ridiculous ftilt, and an Fsmash worth using to compensate.

 

[Yingyay]

So you fixed it? Sweet.I'll test it out 2morow.

 

[Revolce]

So far I like the latest nightly build. I don't like the f-tilt QUITE as much as I did in 4.1, but the rest seems more balanced overall. F-Smash is much nicer and you can actually kill with it so that's a +. Anywho... I'll play some more tomorrow I'm to tired right now.

PS. Sorry to drop in and comment randomly as you have no idea who I am. I'm more of a lurker. Been here since 2k6 But I forgot my account p/w and haven't posted much on this one.

 

[Yingyay]

^^ lol no problem. I can finally post again.
The New Fsmash is brolic as heck. Im wondering why I was able to kill DDD at 130.
I just need a combo into it and it'll be fine. (not a buff request mind you)

Well the wolf discussion didnt go so well at the wolf boards so.....any incite people?

 

[bluetoonlink]

Omg sheik have a chain grab on fox and falco XD

 

[Yingyay]

Sheik has 0 - 100% combos on them as well.
Anybody else try out the new Fsmash? Its wonderful