Official Innovative Ideas Thread

[Zulo]

Reflectors break by projectiles stronger than 60% I'm pretty sure. And they multiply the power of projectiles by two. So it goes like this, using Pit and Fox as an example. Showing the power the arrow has each time it hits their reflector.

Pit - Fox
---> 5%
10% <---
---> 20%
40% <---
---> 80%

So theoretically a fresh uncharged arrow should hit them for 80% damage, and have 4x the knockback as the first arrow. This is from memory, but I'm pretty sure the numbers are right and it makes sense.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

except refelectors don't double the damage, they make it 1.5 times stronger. and the arrow hit for 62% iirc.

 

[Zulo]

Ah, right. I'll go edit the percentages and check.
EDIT: Calculations don't work.. It goes from hitting them for 57 damage to hitting us for 85%. Hm. Let's just go with it then. ><

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

wait, it deals the 57% to them. which means the reflectors break sometime after 50%. that makes sense

 

[Zulo]

Ah, okay. Sounds right I guess.

 

[fUddO]

I don't think it's percent based. I think it has to do with the amount of times the arrows bounces, since charging the arrow doesn't change the time before your reflector breaks. I'll test it on Friday when some friends of mine are coming over.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

cool because now this is just one of those annoying things that i just wanna know but can't do myself

 

[Kuro~]

Maha,i stole that arrow loop to reflector thing against falco. I can't wait to test it out xD is it like a legit thing against him? Or can he stop it?(after it's being reflectd)

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

it always works out in pit's favor bro. idk if he can PS it since his reflector is differant from the others since he kicks it out but i know when it hits it hits hard.

 

[pikmin.org]

Ah, okay, that's really interesting, thanks for the responses.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

well i was gonna wait until ptzr answered my frame data question but at any rate ill throw out my idea.

okay so we all know any character jump cancel up b oos. with pit this is viewed as near useless. but i had an idea that im gonna try and start implementing. let me explain

okay. WOI cancells almost every move in this game if timed near perfectly. it cancells anything from snake's utilt to hits of mk's nado.

now because of this, im thinking for moves like snake's ftilt, mk's nado, and other moves where we can pretty much guarentee that another hit is gonna follow, i think we can wing cancell moves OUT OF SHIELD. i think this could prove to be really important as it saves our shield, and if it works the way im thinking, we could essentially hold shield and keep wing cancelling stuff like nado because after the wing cancell the next hit would be power shielded and then our shield would be up meaning we could wing cancell oos again, thus basically allowing us to either cancell or power shield nado indefinately.

think about it, if this works, we don't have to worry as much about our shield getting low when we are getting shield pressured. for example, we shield the first hit of snake's ftilt, we can pretty much guarentee they are gonna use the second hit a lot of the time to knock us farther away so we can't punish them. however, if we wing cancell the second hit OOS, then we are still close enough to punish with like jab or dtilt or dsmash or at kill percents fsmash.

so what do you guys think? does anyone else even get what im talking about because i had a hard time wording this. do you see potential? i sure do

 

[Xcallion]

I see it's potential and everyone should get to testing this right now. it would require pretty precise button inputs though, so we shouldnt give up after just one or two failed attempts. I'll test this as soon as i have a partner to test it on. or i could just do the super easy CPU players and practice on predicted stuff.

 

[fUddO]

So I did some testing of reflectors with Pit. This is what I found:

Unstale - 59%
-fully staled does not break (uncharged)(might be based on port priority)
-fully staled (charged) 52%
-angel ring still blows up
-cannot reflect your own arrow (passes through)

Falco - Cannot reflect them in time
Mario - Becomes invincible to the arrow.

Sort of ugly and rough, and not test very thoroughly since my friends would rather play LoL, but the main thing I could conclude was that, well, I couldn't really conclude much. For some reason fully staled arrows could still break through shields, but if you charged it, sometimes it wouldn't.

 

[Kuro~]

well i was gonna wait until ptzr answered my frame data question but at any rate ill throw out my idea.

okay so we all know any character jump cancel up b oos. with pit this is viewed as near useless. but i had an idea that im gonna try and start implementing. let me explain

okay. WOI cancells almost every move in this game if timed near perfectly. it cancells anything from snake's utilt to hits of mk's nado.

now because of this, im thinking for moves like snake's ftilt, mk's nado, and other moves where we can pretty much guarentee that another hit is gonna follow, i think we can wing cancell moves OUT OF SHIELD. i think this could prove to be really important as it saves our shield, and if it works the way im thinking, we could essentially hold shield and keep wing cancelling stuff like nado because after the wing cancell the next hit would be power shielded and then our shield would be up meaning we could wing cancell oos again, thus basically allowing us to either cancell or power shield nado indefinately.

think about it, if this works, we don't have to worry as much about our shield getting low when we are getting shield pressured. for example, we shield the first hit of snake's ftilt, we can pretty much guarentee they are gonna use the second hit a lot of the time to knock us farther away so we can't punish them. however, if we wing cancell the second hit OOS, then we are still close enough to punish with like jab or dtilt or dsmash or at kill percents fsmash.

so what do you guys think? does anyone else even get what im talking about because i had a hard time wording this. do you see potential? i sure do

Ya you can also instantaneously shield after WoI by holding z while doing the dair part of WoI cancel. I'll try and use this some in some matches today vs CPU's just to get a rough draft.

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

You should be able to buffer anything out of a woi cancel, shield, jab, dash, etc

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

kuro it wouldn't need dair cancell. by jump cancelling it out of shield it starts off as a grounded WOI so we get the invcincibility and the cancell. and exactly like you said luckay we can buffer anything out of this. i think this is cool because it's like power shielding oos almost but better in a way because if anything we also have the benefit of the shoot up from grounded WOI if something goes awry.

but ya definately test this today kuro

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

I don't think we up b out of shield on nado. It king of depends on mk's position because some parts of the nado are vulnerable and some aren't. So sometimes we would make him drill rush or stand still and other times the nado would punish us for getting out of our shield. It's a great idea, but we are only invincible for like the first 3 frames. We have to have some of the hardest predictions to make woi oos useful for us. It will have a huge reward if we can master it though.

 

[Kuro~]

You should be able to buffer anything out of a woi cancel, shield, jab, dash, etc

Well ya, i was just stating that cuz no one does.

kuro it wouldn't need dair cancell. by jump cancelling it out of shield it starts off as a grounded WOI so we get the invcincibility and the cancell. and exactly like you said luckay we can buffer anything out of this. i think this is cool because it's like power shielding oos almost but better in a way because if anything we also have the benefit of the shoot up from grounded WOI if something goes awry.
It's not like dair cancel will add frames (i don't think). But i see what your saying.
but ya definately test this today kuro

Ok. Plug in wii in a sec. I'll report in an hour or so. But it does matter...cuz if you JUMP cancel it it creates a stalling effect so it doesn't count as a grounded. I think...idk.

I don't think we up b out of shield on nado. It king of depends on mk's position because some parts of the nado are vulnerable and some aren't. So sometimes we would make him drill rush or stand still and other times the nado would punish us for getting out of our shield. It's a great idea, but we are only invincible for like the first 3 frames. We have to have some of the hardest predictions to make woi oos useful for us. It will have a huge reward if we can master it though.

This. I'm gonna start trying to use it more...see if it works out nicely or not.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

nah kuro it does do a grounded up b because you are cancelling the jump input instead of doing jump>up b. you input them at the same time (this is coming from a marth who didn't use tap jump). this is why MK still gets invincibility on shuttle loop oos because you are cancelling the jump input (and remember MK only gets invinciblity on shuttle loop if he does it grounded). but if for some reason it pit's doesn't let us know

@luckay, but if we buffer shield out of wing cancell oos on nado wouldn't it powershield the next hit? if it did it would mean we could just keep WC (im assinging this as Wing Cancelling's abreviation from here on out) could just keep doing WC>Powershield holding it it just long enough to let the shield come back out>WC and just do that until something happened to nado. if anything that would sound hella epic with all the PSing that would bring about. at any rate like we all said now this is worth looking into.

oh and just for referance we are invincible on frames 1-4 so we have 4 frames of invincibility on WOI not 2.

 

[Kuro~]

@Maha ya i know, i realized what i was doing as i posted that. That was my bad. It's kinda hard to do with tap jump off so i put it on.


K after a nice amount of testing i have drawn some conclusions:

1) i found a cool use. Pit can PC on every stage, so doing this OoS is a great escape against the likes of snake, diddy, and the likes. Not so much mk though. This is really cool on sv as well.
2) Even if it doesnt clank the windpush seemed to often cause the moves to miss all together.
3) This is impossible to test accurately against cpus. But i did find instances of the invincibility and clanking vs nado, and mk's upsmash, and a few times with snakes ftilt. But i can't really test it vs cpus at all. So i'm gonna have a friend help asap.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

YES! those few tidbits of info are excellent man! and i guess it's just me who doesn't have trouble doing it without tap jump. also i assume PC is platform cancell right? also, the wind push will cancell out various projectiles. hmmm you know what, i never though about it but against projectiles we could also wing dash out of shield by not cancelling the jump with WOI until we are at wing dash height just of the ground. THIS IS A GREAT SUBSTITUTE TO ROLLING NOW THAT I THINK ABOUT IT! SOOOOO MUCH LESS PUNISHABLE! this is one hell of a day for ideas my friends

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

Well actually you won't be invincible like you would for rolling if you wingdash away oos.

We could test some stuff on wifi if you want kuro

 

[Kuro~]

Well actually you won't be invincible like you would for rolling if you wingdash away oos.

We could test some stuff on wifi if you want kuro

I can for about half an hour.

 

[Kuro~]

nah kuro it does do a grounded up b because you are cancelling the jump input instead of doing jump>up b. you input them at the same time (this is coming from a marth who didn't use tap jump). this is why MK still gets invincibility on shuttle loop oos because you are cancelling the jump input (and remember MK only gets invinciblity on shuttle loop if he does it grounded). but if for some reason it pit's doesn't let us know

@luckay, but if we buffer shield out of wing cancell oos on nado wouldn't it powershield the next hit? if it did it would mean we could just keep WC (im assinging this as Wing Cancelling's abreviation from here on out) could just keep doing WC>Powershield holding it it just long enough to let the shield come back out>WC and just do that until something happened to nado. if anything that would sound hella epic with all the PSing that would bring about. at any rate like we all said now this is worth looking into.

oh and just for referance we are invincible on frames 1-4 so we have 4 frames of invincibility on WOI not 2.

Might be easier with classic pro? .The positioning with GC is just weird. You'd have to claw cuz in the time it takes to like...slide your finger downt to B you already passed up the frame to JCWOI. That's why i use R as attack for JCupsmash.

YES! those few tidbits of info are excellent man! and i guess it's just me who doesn't have trouble doing it without tap jump. also i assume PC is platform cancell right? also, the wind push will cancell out various projectiles. hmmm you know what, i never though about it but against projectiles we could also wing dash out of shield by not cancelling the jump with WOI until we are at wing dash height just of the ground. THIS IS A GREAT SUBSTITUTE TO ROLLING NOW THAT I THINK ABOUT IT! SOOOOO MUCH LESS PUNISHABLE! this is one hell of a day for ideas my friends

Ya i really like the platform cancel escape thing...surprised i never used that more lmao. It's pretty damn utile.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

no you wouldn't be invincible, but the push from the wingdash would probably be enough to make them not be able to hit you assuming you wingdash away from them plus since we have no lag after it this could make for a great way to set up punishes on laggier moves. ooooh i can't wait to start implementing these things into my game assuming they work as planned.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

unless you have x or y set to special, then you just hold up and hit them at the same time which is what i did when i used a GC controller which is back when i mained marth. i got the CPro after maining pit for a while and yes the sheer number of buttons makes it sooooo niiiiice to do aaaaanythiiiing

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

GC seems just fine to me compared to the Cpro, I'm online now Kuro, go on aib so we can chat.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

they are both great, i just like the xbox like design of the CPro

 

[Kuro~]

unless you have x or y set to special, then you just hold up and hit them at the same time which is what i did when i used a GC controller which is back when i mained marth. i got the CPro after maining pit for a while and yes the sheer number of buttons makes it sooooo niiiiice to do aaaaanythiiiing

Just holding up wont JC it though...not w/o tap jump

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

you hold up before you hit jump so you can do them both at the same time man.

 

[Kuro~]

Good news maha. We'll post when we done.

 

[Kuro~]

WoI OoS is legit maha. Me or luckay will post more in depth detail about it later. I asked if he wants to make a vid of all the moves. I think we should. And use the song can't touch this

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

sooooo..... is that my legit 4th good idea? 2 ATs (DACG and 2SJCUS), 2 great ideas (the previous one about using WOI under platforms to get immediate wing refresh had been done by kuro before but he didn't post about it, so we'll call it split; and now this), and one character's metagame soaring through the roof. we should come up with either a fancy name or something really simple, like Wing Shielding (WSD), or Palutena's Holy Guard (PHG), or something along those lines. what do you guys think?

and hell yes, post a vid, im horny for it now!

sooooooo mu-mu-mu-much wiiiiiin! especially with "can't touch this" as the song. good going on the testing guys, none of anyone's innovative ideas would be legit without you guys doing hella testing and all the cool **** you do.

 

[Xcallion]

maharba, i know you're excited but you seem like you're on some sort of stimulant.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i worked 5am until 1:30pm at target, went to chili's at 4:00pm and got off at 9:15pm. im not on any stimulant but coffee and im actually tired as balls. however, no matter how tired i am, im happy that i can lay claim to more metagame advancement stuff and thus i type it with extra enthusiasm, that's all it is tbh. but im totally burnt from today especially since for some reason no matter how tired i am i can't fall asleep before 1:00am so im running off of 2hrs of sleep for both jobs on saturdays, sundays, tuesdays, and thursdays. tell me you wouldn't act a little nutty sometimes on that kind of regimen?

 

[Xcallion]

i understand why you're a bit nutty. You should really get some sleep. Dont make me worry about you

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

maharba, i know you're excited but you seem like you're on some sort of stimulant.

I died when I read this.

I dont think we need a special name for it, but then again it would be against our pit main nature to not make a silly name. Video might be up next week. First my last final then ktar this weekend.

 

[Xcallion]

I dont think we need a special name for it, but then again it would be against our pit main nature to not make a silly name.

see: angelic step and SHART

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

so what were some of the findings on this? im impatient and want some spoilers before the vid next week

 

[Kuro~]

so what were some of the findings on this? im impatient and want some spoilers before the vid next week

I'll give you a few then. Stops every inf jab on shield guarenteed. Does not stop "drill" type attacks such as fox,peach, wario, kirby dair. Stops "vertex" type dsmashes such as peach, rob, pikachu(varies on spacingfor pika). Theres a few tiny tidbits.