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Official Innovative Ideas Thread

Luckay4Lyphe

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 8, 2009
Messages
3,915
Location
College Park, MD
This thread shall now be where Pits propose new ideas that could potentially up our metagame. Don't be afraid to post anything too far-fetched. We as a community can take one idea and branch other ones off from it. We can test these out and if you don't have video footage of it, I will test it and make a video of it myself.

The videos I make in this thread are all unlisted so only us Pits will know about them until we can make uses for them, perfect them, and use them in serious matches.

A couple dtilt spike setups

I knew canceling a grounded woi when running off the stage which has little use as nothing really changes, but looking a Maharaba's videos when he plays around with it made me want to try this.


Skid Canceling

Using skid canceling can make gimping/edgehogging less predictable in a sense.

DTUB tech chasing

This video shows that we MAY be able to tech chase with Pit. I'm not 100% sure, but it could work as a follow up for the lighter characters we can't chaingrab for some starting %. It's hard to actually pull it off when you get in this specific situation so it's good to practice something beforehand and know what you want to do with this.


The Katana Combo

I added multiple variations of this so you can try your own method.

The last one doesn't work on characters like Samus, Yoshi, or lighter characters of course.

This combo is pretty much a gimmick as it isn't guarenteed. If your opponent is lazy enough to fall for this feel free to **** them for it.


Delayed Arrow Loops & Mystic Wrath

Interesting way to arrow loop. Makes it not as obvious since your opponent thinks the arrow went off screen. Mystic wrath may be an interesting tech chase option.

Maharba The Mystic's Explanation

Ways to Hide Your Loop

one of the things you have gotta learn is how to not move (or at least significantly enough to mess up spacing) while looping arrows.

strafe shooting is done by holding shield while looping causes you roll or sidestep based on which angle you are going for. a full circle on the stick brings back to where you were with another roll.

pocket sniping- shoot an arrow up. now start charging another arrow. now loop the first arrow while charging the second. fire the second whereever you want.

plank looping is drop off the edge and shoot an arrow up. jump and grab ledge. then loop it as you are grabbing the edge again. (suggested by Luckay)

loop 'n' smash is when you shoot an arrow. then start charging a smash with the cstick and the attack button. then loop your arrow whereever you want.

loop stalling is the act of hiding your arrow off the screen while continuously looping it until you need it. this usually makes opponents think that you have lost your arrow as opposed to it still being a threat. the only thing that is hard about this is managing to hide it for a long period of time.

Delayed Looping
now with ways to not move while shooting/cover up the more advanced ATs out of the way, let me tell you guys about an AT i call delayed looping. delayed looping is the easiest way for you to get your loops to start setting up for you if you know where they are going to be. let me tell you the ways i do this as i consider these particular set ups as part of the root of my pit style.

a) really get the feel for how fast your arrows are first otherwise you will fail at this miserably. when you really start to feel the arrow (im being serious and idc if it sounds lame) then you can start to do Vertical delayed looping (VDL). all you are doing with this is firing the arrow up while being sure not to move. watch your opponent until they start to move. then shoot a distraction arrow and loop the other while you're in the shooting animation. they never see u move during the loop so thus they can't predict where or from what angle its coming from. you can also use any of the above hiding methods combined with loop stalling and that is also VDL.

b) once you have down the speed of the arrow, you must practice and master all of the results of pit's different loop curves and angles. which is why this AT this is a little more difficult to perform because you are firing this arrow hoping to miss the first time. let me explain how Horizantal delayed looping works. what you are doing is baiting a dodge, sidestep, airdodge, any thing that makes you miss with a straight arrow. then once your arrow is out of the focus of the camera but still active loop it up above the screen and bring it back down on them. now this doesn't sound difficult but here are a couple things to add to your current thought process about it. this AT is 100% dependent on your stage posistion. if you are facing the edge of map and you're firing that way the arrow will disapear. however you can't let your opponent see what you are doing so that means you can't see it either. you have to feel the loop while making sure your arrow stays in the horizantal boundaries without seeing it or looping it right off the bat like normal. hell i still am working on this one yet i still think the next one is harder.

c) when you truly are at one with your arrow, this AT becomes possible. this is by far the hardest of the delayed loops because this you must learn to do on reaction or it probably won't work. this is the Power Shield Deflect delayed loop (lets call it PSDDL). wat you are doing on this one is recognizing that one of you power shielded arrows was deflected in a direction and then looping that deflected arrow to come back and hit the opponent. when you power shield a projectile it does not become yours it just deflecting as opposed to reflecting. thus you can bring those arrows back around after they get deflected to come back and try again almost 100% guarenteed to take anyone by suprise.

Other Arrow Techniques (contributors listed)

Katana's Fade- Spam a bit. Then about then time they get mid range, shoot one in the opposite direction looped perfectly. After you shoot, you can just press "A". You will usually end up doing a F-tilt, and they will run into it. I some times do a d-smash. If not, the arrow comes from behind as insurance and safety, which will lead to your kill or combo set up. (katana koden)

Under Looping- this is really important as this works at 2/3 of pits best stages (imo) Halberd and Delphino Plaza. on these stages you can shoot an upward arrow and loop it away and down and then continue to bring it up from the under side of the stage and then continues through under sides of platform. when the arrow comes up through the it pops up right in front of you allowing for some interesting set ups. plus you can just keep looping it as it keeps coming up in front of you acting as a semi wall.

i am going to add more to this as i work on other aspects of arrow combat as well. suggestions are always welcome also. And for other Advanced Stuff here is my Pit Advanced Play tutorial http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx6zz4Wda-M


2v1 0-deaths

Think of some ways with other character teammates to get fancy 0-deaths in 2v1!

Edge Slip follow ups

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBljM...ature=youtu.be
 

zZBlazeZz

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 14, 2010
Messages
22
Location
NorCal
dude this is Maharba on my friends account. you just gave a sick idea and i jsut tested it and it works. skid cancell a reverse AR but don't keep tapping b. it snatches them and then the wind animation pushes them under the stage.

you just upped my game with this skid cancelling dude. thank you so much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Luckay4Lyphe

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 8, 2009
Messages
3,915
Location
College Park, MD
That's an awesome idea, dude! I didn't even think using angel ring with skid canceling had an uses so I didn't put it in the video.

Here's the other thing I found that I was talking about. It MAY be a way we can dthrow tech chase like a GaW on stages with platforms.

DTUB chasing

Adding to the OP
 

zZBlazeZz

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 14, 2010
Messages
22
Location
NorCal
hey its MAHARBA again on blaze's pc. for WOI cancel it doesn't have to be a moving platform. you just have to remember to hit down on left thumbstick before you use dair (assuming you use c-stick to aerial) on stationary platforms (refer to me vs blaze at halberd if you want). however only on moving platforms (i.e. smashville, rainbow cruise, the ships at cornaria, etc) can pit platform cancel by short hopping and then right before the peak (when his knees are in the platform) use dair and that platform cancells also. the advantage to this is it is it can be faster because you can do it while moving forward and it can even be out of ledge jump. if you look at my matches closer on smashville i platform cancell with dair all the time (however i have don't do the edge hop in those. will upload one with it in it later).
 

Maharba the Mystic

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
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Location
Houston, Texas
yes kuro. and now let me tell everyone here the mix ups that gives you that you just thought of when i said yes:

"wow! that means we could tech chase them from below with:
a)bair ftw
b)rising fair jab lock (can be done out of normal WOI onto the platform also i think. someone who has their wii still at their house test this)
c)usmash/utilt/ uair
d)into another wingdash that pushes them off the platform leaving them open to be hit by anything (someone also test this)"

btw when i say someone test this i mean "go! LUCKY! go!" and if this stuff works make a whole tutorial showing skid cancell that YOU can legitly take credit for (ya lucky, advance dat meta-game). show off the instant aerials you were doing, try out that AR thing i told you about. (which can lead into WOI-ing them even farther under the stage trust me i did it in match this morning). try out kuro's idea(ideas^^ lol).


also i pulled off the FIRST dtilt spike set up today and recorded it. now its not the exact same way but its close enough. i would post it now but its jake's turn with the wii and me and him are training for WINTER GAME FEST 4 in san diego. we will playing against people like ESAM, ZEX, MikeHaze, DEHF, RICHBROWN. or at least they are registered on AIB for it. so we both need our training
 

Kuro~

Nitoryu Kuro
Joined
Jan 30, 2010
Messages
6,040
Location
Apopka Florida
yes kuro. and now let me tell everyone here the mix ups that gives you that you just thought of when i said yes:

"wow! that means we could tech chase them from below with:
a)bair ftw
b)rising fair jab lock (can be done out of normal WOI onto the platform also i think. someone who has their wii still at their house test this)
c)usmash/utilt/ uair
d)into another wingdash that pushes them off the platform leaving them open to be hit by anything (someone also test this)"

btw when i say someone test this i mean "go! LUCKY! go!" and if this stuff works make a whole tutorial showing skid cancell that YOU can legitly take credit for (ya lucky, advance dat meta-game). show off the instant aerials you were doing, try out that AR thing i told you about. (which can lead into WOI-ing them even farther under the stage trust me i did it in match this morning). try out kuro's idea(ideas^^ lol).


also i pulled off the FIRST dtilt spike set up today and recorded it. now its not the exact same way but its close enough. i would post it now but its jake's turn with the wii and me and him are training for WINTER GAME FEST 4 in san diego. we will playing against people like ESAM, ZEX, MikeHaze, DEHF, RICHBROWN. or at least they are registered on AIB for it. so we both need our training
The sad thing is...i live in florida and go to tourneys regularly but havnt fought him yet :( ima prolly go to the tourney he his hosting this weekend and ill play him and nick try and save some of me fightin em.
 

Blubolouis

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2010
Messages
1,005
Location
Paris, France
I tried dthrow>woi on a kirby computer, and he did what i wanted him to do, he airdodged at the first available frame after the dthrow (you can see it because he doesn't even get "transparent" from the airdodge, only the animation of the character and the invicibility remains), and i couldn't get him to hit the platform :/
it's probably strict on timing from the opponent's part, and character dependant, and i might be doin it wrong so keep going Lucky!

Also, dthrow>WoI (not under a platform) may be interesting, locking your opponent if he doesn't airdodge, getting a Fair in if he does (i guess he can tech though)

i'm just throwing out ideas, don't mind me x3
 

Luckay4Lyphe

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
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College Park, MD
hey its MAHARBA again on blaze's pc. for WOI cancel it doesn't have to be a moving platform. you just have to remember to hit down on left thumbstick before you use dair (assuming you use c-stick to aerial) on stationary platforms (refer to me vs blaze at halberd if you want). however only on moving platforms (i.e. smashville, rainbow cruise, the ships at cornaria, etc) can pit platform cancel by short hopping and then right before the peak (when his knees are in the platform) use dair and that platform cancells also. the advantage to this is it is it can be faster because you can do it while moving forward and it can even be out of ledge jump. if you look at my matches closer on smashville i platform cancell with dair all the time (however i have don't do the edge hop in those. will upload one with it in it later).
Yeah, thanks for this. I just realized it too, I guess the height of SV's platform is unique (so remember to strike to here more often! lol) I also tried testing on BF, Frigate, Halberd, YI,and PS1.

YI, as with lylat, only works at specific points on certain angles so it isn't very reliable. You can do it on YI at the start of the match, just not in the middle where the ground dips. BF, Frigate, and Halberd's platforms are all a little shorter than SV so you can't cancel woi as fast. PS1 and lylat have small platforms so you can get knocked off by a get up attack, but you could simply predict this and jump to any aerial or PS if you can.

Can wingdash out of dthrow work similarly as a nice surprise?
I tried this and I think the wing push effect is weaker than a grounded woi or it isn't fast enough to catch them in their dthrow knockback. I'll test it more though.

"wow! that means we could tech chase them from below with:
a)bair ftw
b)rising fair jab lock (can be done out of normal WOI onto the platform also i think. someone who has their wii still at their house test this)
c)usmash/utilt/ uair
d)into another wingdash that pushes them off the platform leaving them open to be hit by anything (someone also test this)"

btw when i say someone test this i mean "go! LUCKY! go!" and if this stuff works make a whole tutorial showing skid cancell that YOU can legitly take credit for (ya lucky, advance dat meta-game). show off the instant aerials you were doing, try out that AR thing i told you about. (which can lead into WOI-ing them even farther under the stage trust me i did it in match this morning). try out kuro's idea(ideas^^ lol).
I'm definitely going to test more and make a more advanced tutorial showing some possible setups/combos. I was really excited about this when I started testing it on all these characters, and the possibility of advancing Pit's metagame and giving people new ideas motivates me even more.

I tried dthrow>woi on a kirby computer, and he did what i wanted him to do, he airdodged at the first available frame after the dthrow (you can see it because he doesn't even get "transparent" from the airdodge, only the animation of the character and the invicibility remains), and i couldn't get him to hit the platform :/
it's probably strict on timing from the opponent's part, and character dependant, and i might be doin it wrong so keep going Lucky!
This is what I was afraid of since I was testing for the video on a non moving opponent. I'm going to be playing some level 9 cpu's in the future when I go more in depth with this as I have no smashers to test with unfortunately. Hopefully, we can just assume an opponent wont try to airdodge right away when they aren't expecting something like this.
 

Luckay4Lyphe

Smash Master
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Messages
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College Park, MD
I know right? Silly MD. Anyways, I feel like our ideas are branching off each other right now.

I just tried the reverse AR thing you told me and thought of another idea. You can skid cancel a reverse AR and then go for a rising nair stage spike and then after the stage spike you can footstool ftw! This could be a potential 0-death on the characters we cg. If the cg spacing is well enough that your opponent gets thrown barely offstage and grabs the ledge, you can skid cancel a reverse AR which will last until after their invincibility frames are over and then your can use a rising nair for the stage spike!

I could possibly test this on my brother when he has time. He doesn't brawl competitively, but all he has to be doing is trying to escape, right?
 

Nitrix

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
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867
Location
London, Ontario
I think I love you Lucky lol.

This is pretty cool stuff, thanks!

We all need to think of cool stuff like this.
 

Maharba the Mystic

Smash Master
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Location
Houston, Texas
i just ****ed like 80 times when you said that lucky! dude keep thinking guys cause when i get my wii sunday im testing everything that actually seems to be thought through (which is everything so far :) ) in actual gameplay against blaze. this thread da bess
 

Kuro~

Nitoryu Kuro
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Jan 30, 2010
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i just ****ed like 80 times when you said that lucky! dude keep thinking guys cause when i get my wii sunday im testing everything that actually seems to be thought through (which is everything so far :) ) in actual gameplay against blaze. this thread da bess
oh ya btw....i find that the angel ring thing...rather than skid canceling into it and making our lives harder...just run woi cancel and do it or simply run off the ledge and do it. Both are faster options. not to say skid canceling isnt useful.the aerials thing could be very useful.

oh ya and speaking of angel ring a nice little mixup i like to use is Jab1 run backwards breverse angel ring. works nicely.
 

Maharba the Mystic

Smash Master
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so everyone knows that pits third intial step from standing to dash gives him a greater boost. does everyone know that after you pass that it is still every third step starting from the next one? and did you know it boosts the slide of not just usmash but also boosts (most only slightly but noticeable still):
the slide of cancelling run with arrow (reverse bounces farther back)
the slide of cancelling mirror shield(reverse bounces farther back)
his pivot grab slides farther
im pretty sure you jump forward farther and faster when you jump off that step too.
skid animation is longer allowing for skid cancell timing mix ups
 

Luckay4Lyphe

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So it sounded cool in theory, but I don't think that zero death is going to work. It requires people to hang on the ledge pretty long for the AR hitboxes to knock them off. I tried it on cpu's and it seems they could get up on the stage before their invincibility frames wore off if they got back on the stage right away. A normal person would probably do the same since no one wants people chasing you offstage while you're on the ledge vulnerable to a stage spike. Although, if they try to plank, not expecting a skid canceled reverse AR, then maybe.

I pull it off on snake once, but he buffered a jump before I could catch him with a rising nair stage spike. If we skid cancel a reverse AR and it works, then we will most likely have to try to beat people back to the edge and then gimp them or edgehog.
 

Kuro~

Nitoryu Kuro
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this is good on wario :p gets him off the bike when recovering low. cept dont skid cancel...jus cancel or b-reverse like maha said..its less frames that way. i wouldnt try to do this on ppl hanging anyways....jus simply edgeguard them instead. but ppl recovering low...thats anothe story. ima start testing this on zss,wario,diddy,IC's possibly, olimar. we'll see.
 

dualseeker

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
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Pit: One of the greatest Heroes of our time
Dude, this sounds interesting. Haven't seen something this interesting since the WoI jab lock1 thing. I'll definitely try to test this out some more and help you guys with your findings. I definitely want to see Pit improve and this does look hopeful. I'll try some research into the DTUB thing some time. Can't wait to see how this turns out ^__^!
 

Damix91

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Messages
272
Location
London, UK
no. run off then wave bounce from front to back not back to front
Turnaround-B [Universal] - The special attack turnaround in the air that does not alter your momentum. It is performed by pressing in the opposite direction you are facing BEFORE you perform the special.
Execution:
-Input reverse direction
-Input special​
B-Reverse (aka Reversal-B) [Universal]- The turnaround in the air that reverses your momentum. It is performed by pressing in the opposite direction you are facing AFTER you perform the special.
Execution:
-Input special
-Input reverse direction within 4 frames​
Recoil Special (aka Wavebounce) [Universal] - The reversal of momentum that occurs when you combine a Turnaround-B and B-Reverse. You will face the same direction that you did before.
Execution:
-Input reverse direction
-Input special
-Input direction you were facing within 4 frames​
Confusal of terms maybe
 

Katana_koden

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 26, 2008
Messages
609
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Some Where In Metro Atlanta
Have to ever tried glide attack hit- cancel > wingdash> Ftilt> Dair> Bair? Sounds crazy right? Its hard timing to get used to.

There is and alternate glide attack> ground Up B> FFall wing lunge> profit

works at low percents and combo's to 50+
 

Maharba the Mystic

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Have to ever tried glide attack hit- cancel > wingdash> Ftilt> Dair> Bair? Sounds crazy right? Its hard timing to get used to.

There is and alternate glide attack> ground Up B> FFall wing lunge> profit

works at low percents and combo's to 50+
Luckay you need to add this to the OP hopefully with a vid asap. that is so bad *** Katana! never even thought of that!
 

Blubolouis

Smash Lord
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Paris, France
Katana>i tried it and it's sexy as hell, both of them. the second one seems a little easier/realistic, but in the end it all comes down to your opponent's reaction, right? whether they airdodge/attack/tech or not?
 

Katana_koden

Smash Ace
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Jul 26, 2008
Messages
609
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Some Where In Metro Atlanta
Well if they can tech after the wings, and then after the dair, the bair is so quick but I think its possible to dodge. I haven't tried on many different characters.

Basically I tried it and set it aside for now.
 

Maharba the Mystic

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Houston, Texas
i just found out something cool with pit in training mode. k so we all know pit gets a big old boost on his third step on a bunch of stuff but most notably up smash. however if you jump cancel usmash on step 2 it causes it to as going from 3 and thus you get the step 3 boost on step 2. this allows you to forward throw into it at higher percents too if im seeing this right. have to wait for green to come over and test this. but ya it definately is way faster to than waiting for 3 steps. im gonna call this Step Cancelled Jump Cancelled Usmash (scjcu) because that sounds really confusing yet totally fits it.
 

Luckay4Lyphe

Smash Master
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Apr 8, 2009
Messages
3,915
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College Park, MD
Okay, this is amazing katana. The dair>bair part does the most damage, but I just found another good one. If you walk up to them while they're getting up and use the close up dtilt you can usmash right away for around 50%. It's like 4% less at most, but I think it's more inescapable. This one might be better because snake may be able to pull a nade in the dair>bair one. It also puts your opponent above you which is good for Pit!

I'll make a video with all the variations of this epic 0-50% combo. All credit goes to katana.
 

Maharba the Mystic

Smash Master
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Messages
4,403
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Houston, Texas
check this out. im pretty sure its escapable but its so fast that if your opponent doesn't react with jump or counter within the time a buffered fsmash out of a perfectly performed in place WingDash you can do Dthrow>in place WingDash>fsmash for a solid 25% if both moves are fresh. also even if they do jump or try to do a really fast attack like a weegee Nair the WOI either cancels their hit allowing a punish or the wind will push them to far away to get you plus your wing dashing so you can do it all the way to safety. but ya ive been pulling this off in combat and trust me its one of those things that doesn't really have a disadvantage to doing because if it works its a free 25% fast and if you have to escape you can.
 
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