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Puca Readabook

Smash Apprentice
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As falco on the ledge, does the "ledgehop>waveland>Grab/Shine/Shffl" option outweigh the option of just ledgehopping into a dair/nair? I heard that there are useful invincibility frames in the first option, so i wasn't too sure...

Oh and is Antd's "L-Cancel Anything" hack in his combo video available to the public?
 

Fortress | Sveet

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The latter has less risk of killing yourself and can punish people if they mess up close to you.

The former has invincibility frames to completely cover your waveland plus a little more.

Falco has another option, ledge hop double laser, which is pretty good too.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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What happens if you PS a spacie's side-B (if it's even possible)?

If you PS a physical attack, how long can you hold shield while still receiving the benefit of attacking out of the shield release animation? I want to PS a spacie nair and utilt out of the shield release, but I have to wait for the shine first so I don't get hit. I'm guessing that you have to let go of shield before stun ends in order to attack out of shield release, but I figured I'd make sure.
 

Bones0

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I wouldn't guess that anything special happens. You probably just powershield normally and slide in the direction the space animal is side-B-ing in.

You're probably right, but I believe the game treats it as a projectile because the hitbox is nowhere near Fox/Falco and they don't suffer hitlag if someone is hit by it, so I thought it might be weird somehow.
 

Ripple

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it probably has its own unique properties.


Attacks that aren't attached to bones don't clash even if grounded I believe
 

Ripple

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sorry, I meant that they don't cause whoever is using the attack to clank and return to normal
 
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Is it possible to reular DI all moves the same amount? I would guess that you can alter your trajectory after fox's upthrow by about 30 degrees. So can you alter your trajectory that much after being hit by all moves? Or do moves have different amount of potential DI?
 

Ripple

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Any move that has an angle less that 22 degrees cannot be DId at all. Examples of such moves are links sour spot up-b (0 degrees) and ganons tipman "spike" (0 again?). But otherwise I believe so

I think
 

Kadano

Magical Express
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What happens if you PS a spacie's side-B (if it's even possible)?
Not possible.

If you PS a physical attack, how long can you hold shield while still receiving the benefit of attacking out of the shield release animation?
Your shield may be visible for up to 3 frames.
Is it possible to reular DI all moves the same amount? I would guess that you can alter your trajectory after fox's upthrow by about 30 degrees. So can you alter your trajectory that much after being hit by all moves? Or do moves have different amount of potential DI?
According to Magus420, you can DI by 17.5° in both directions.
Any move that has an angle less that 22 degrees cannot be DId at all. Examples of such moves are links sour spot up-b (0 degrees) and ganons tipman "spike" (0 again?). But otherwise I believe so
Ganondorf’s uair semi-spike indeed has a knockback angle of 0°. It can be DIed, though. Here is an example, vs Marth at 96% before hit, frame 3 (first frame after ASDI, I checked that the angles stay the same during the following frames):
 

wmo

Smash Rookie
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Jul 4, 2013
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What's the ideal way to hold the controller, and what's the most efficient controls?

First off, should I use L or R for wavedashing, shielding, etc? From my understanding, you should shield with one and wavedash with the other (so shield with R and wd with L) since it makes it easier to wd out of shield. Is this true? What's the ideal setup?

Secondly, is using c-stick necessary? I never used it when I used to play, so I'd have to change how I use the controller in order to use it. I find it can be hard to use my thumb for c-stick, b, a, and jump. What's the remedy to this?

Thirdly, how do top level players hold the controller? I want to figure this all out now so I don't form bad habits and have to work out of them later.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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What's the ideal way to hold the controller, and what's the most efficient controls?

First off, should I use L or R for wavedashing, shielding, etc? From my understanding, you should shield with one and wavedash with the other (so shield with R and wd with L) since it makes it easier to wd out of shield. Is this true? What's the ideal setup?

Secondly, is using c-stick necessary? I never used it when I used to play, so I'd have to change how I use the controller in order to use it. I find it can be hard to use my thumb for c-stick, b, a, and jump. What's the remedy to this?

Thirdly, how do top level players hold the controller? I want to figure this all out now so I don't form bad habits and have to work out of them later.
You can WD OoS with the same trigger. It may be more difficult starting out, but past a certain point it won't affect you at all. The trick to WDing OoS properly with the same trigger is to not fully release the shield. Assuming you are holding the trigger all the way in, just barely release the part where it clicks during your jumpsquat frames, and then repress it again as soon as your character is airborne. The fastest jump is 3 frames of jumpsquat (characters like Fox, Sheik, Samus, ICs, etc.) and they are all entirely plausible to use one trigger with.

The C-stick is practically mandatory. There's a lot of things you physically will be incapable of doing without it. You simply can't do things like FF and uair on the same frame, getting full momentum in the opposite direction of an aerial, or pivot smashes, and other techniques just become wildly easier with C-stick usage. C-sticked fsmashes are also slightly quicker (you can charge with Z if you need to), and it allows you to buffer out of shield options (roll, spotdodge, or jump).

Why do you find all the main buttons to use with your thumb? That seems really weird because your thumb should naturally sit on A within immediate access to Y and B. C-stick can be a bit awkward for a while, and I still don't use it for many attacks performed immediately after jumping (it's hard to go from Y to hitting the C-stick up), but it shouldn't be too hard. Start with simple stuff like late aerials where you have plenty of time to think about pressing it or aerials after you drop through platforms (so when you push down on the stick to drop through, you can uair immediately with the C-stick).

Top level players hold controllers in all sorts of ways. The most common is also the most natural way where you simply use your thumb for all the face buttons, but some players use a "keyboard" style while others "claw" the index finger onto the controller face specifically for jumping. Keyboard style is pretty unorthodox, but Javi uses it and he doesn't seem to have any issues with tech skill. One concern people have brought up about it is the inability to use the right trigger and Z properly for grabs because you only really have your pinky near them. Clawing has a similar issue, but because you're only taking away one finger from the right trigger area, you could probably rest your controller on your leg or something for balance while pressing R and Z with your middle and ring finger. The main benefit both of these methods has over the traditional one is that you can very easily jump and C-stick at the same time. If that's appealing to you, give it a try.

One other option to explore is jumping with the control stick. I think most people would highly recommend learning with Y because it's closer to all the relevant buttons than X and jumping with the stick while trying to aerial can make a lot of things hard or impossible, but it can be helpful to be able to jump with the stick for things like JC usmashes, low immediate uairs, and other random stuff. You can learn this more as you go along though.

The last thing that is important is trigger tricking. You can remove the spring from a trigger so that it acts more like a button. This removes your ability to lightshield with that trigger, but in exchange you can powershield very easily because you will always get your hard shield out on frame 1 (you cannot PS with lightshield). This also makes it a bit easier to tech and airdodge because you don't have to worry about how far you are pushing down the trigger. You can easily remove and replace springs, so at least give it a try and you can always put it back if you want it).

My recommended configuration (not the same as the one I use, unfortunately):

L - Lightshield/hardshield, wavedash, L-cancel (make sure you learn to light press your L-cancels so they don't count as tech inputs and make you miss techs)
R (trigger tricked) - Powershielding, shai dropping (lets you easily L-cancel after quick drop throughs), teching, wavedashing (since most of your WD OoS will not be after PS, you will probably want your WD trigger separate from your "regular" shield trigger, L)
Z - Grabs, hold to charge C-stick smashes, grapples with or without an airdodge (Link, Young Link, Samus); as long as you aren't playing a grapple character, you can use Z for aerials; you can also use it for L-cancels, but idk what quirks come with that (you might do stuff like accidentally attack if you ledge canceled before inputting it whereas a light trigger press in the air won't do anything).
Y and A - Jump and standard attacks; rest your thumb across both, and you can alternate jump and attack timings easily by doing a sort of seesaw motion with the last joint of your thumb; you should be able to jump and attack at the same time or with any sort of timing in between because your thumb never leaves either button (except to press B or C-stick)
B - Closer to Y; get good at sliding your thumb from Y to B and vice versa, ESPECIALLY if you play a spacie

Alternative:
Claw your right index finger onto Y or X (doesn't matter which if you're clawing), and press Z and R with your middle and ring fingers respectively. If you can get comfortable with this, it's probably the best.
 

SPRINGS02

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 11, 2013
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Oh, guess i should introduce myself here. Yo, SPRINGS02 here. I love smash bros(specifically melee) and my mains are captain falcon, marth/roy, and kirby. I was just recently exposed to competitive melee and competitive techniques and now after a hiatus from playing melee i really want to learn to play like that and master these techniques. Competitive melee is amazing to me, looks like some DBZ type stuff.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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Oh, guess i should introduce myself here. Yo, SPRINGS02 here. I love smash bros(specifically melee) and my mains are captain falcon, marth/roy, and kirby. I was just recently exposed to competitive melee and competitive techniques and now after a hiatus from playing melee i really want to learn to play like that and master these techniques. Competitive melee is amazing to me, looks like some DBZ type stuff.
Awesome man, welcome to the community! Have you been to any tournaments yet? If not, definitely check out the regional boards to see who is near you and if there are any tournaments coming up you might be interested in. I'm sure you've heard about Evo coming up this weekend and probably want to watch, so it's a pretty exciting time to just be getting into Melee. If you're in the mood to check out some interesting Melee videos, you should check out my favorites on YouTube playlist. I have most of the epic and awesome matches, combo videos, TASes, and more from over the years, so it's a fun and efficient way of acclimating yourself even more to the community outside of attending events.
 

SPRINGS02

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 11, 2013
Messages
6
Awesome man, welcome to the community! Have you been to any tournaments yet? If not, definitely check out the regional boards to see who is near you and if there are any tournaments coming up you might be interested in. I'm sure you've heard about Evo coming up this weekend and probably want to watch, so it's a pretty exciting time to just be getting into Melee. If you're in the mood to check out some interesting Melee videos, you should check out my favorites on YouTube playlist. I have most of the epic and awesome matches, combo videos, TASes, and more from over the years, so it's a fun and efficient way of acclimating yourself even more to the community outside of attending events.
Thanks dude. Oh yeah, i also left out that i use ganondorf as well. I actually haven't been to any tournies yet, but i'm gonna start looking into them. I have been watching a bunch of the tournaments like apex and whatnot on youtube(hungrybox vs armada at apex 2013 got me so hyped!) I'll definitely check out that playlist. And yes, i'm looking forward to evo no doubt, so happy that the whole "nintendo not allowing streams" thing didn't last. As of now, i'm just trying to get myself used to these competitive techniques honestly. Some of them i did without even realizing what they were called(like fast falling, dash dancing, and L canceling) and others i'm just trying to manage to get comfortable with so that i can actually use them correctly in matches(wavedashing, Short hopping, shuffling, which is really hard). As of now some of these techniques don't feel natural to me lol.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Brampton, Ontario
Sup. Basically dropping in real quick to ask: how, in general, do people get better without much contact with people?
I live in Brampton, Ontario, and I don't really run into any smashers. I show up to Unknown's monthlies, and that's about it. My tech skill is somewhere between decent and amazing, but I completely lock up whenever I play human players. Stay in shield, miss techs, SD, etc. I watch tourney videos, I practice tech skill, and I do nothing but play friendlies when I go to tournaments (going so far as to skip out on eating and watching finals), but what else can I do? Training regiments? Finding smashers in the area? Whatever, anything that can help.
(Extra information, I am poor, so I can't go into Toronto that much, and I main Falco/Mario, but I play every character except for Yoshi, Samus, Pichu, and Roy)
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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I know dat feels bro. Record yourself whenever you do play so you can study your videos. I try to maximize my Melee trips by going for several days at a time or at least getting to events super early and staying as late as possible. I usually only go to tournaments once a month (if that), so getting there right when the venue opens and bringing food and staying late helps me maximize the time I spend playing. I would also just quit all of your characters except Falco and Mario. I used to be like you playing a ton of characters, and I still occasionally break out a bunch of random characters when I'm tired or playing my usual training partner that I've played a million times, but during tournaments I almost always stick with Falco/Marth practice because there's so much to learn with even one character that there's no reason to waste time improving other characters you will never use in tourney.
 
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thanks for answering my last question about DI ripple and kadano.

something else I was wondering is what do these sponsorship deals that some top players are getting include? (I mean vgbootcamp dr pp, ct mew2king and hbox). I'm guessing CT paid for peepee's plane ticket and/ or hotel room? Nothing I need to know but I just got curious while watching the evo videos.
 

Puca Readabook

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 2, 2013
Messages
77
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Gallatin, TN
ehh, I just pretend the lvl 1 cpu is going to attack me like a human, and I don't need to describe how well that works...

other than that, I just mindlessly dd/waveshine/shffl/waveland around, keep the buttons working....
 
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
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Brampton, Ontario
So when you don't have anyone to practice with, what do you practice and how do you do it?
Yeah, I really need to know this. I try to practise against CPUs, but that builds really bad habits. Then there's practicing against a human player not doing anything, for tech skill, but that will only get you so far. What else can you do?
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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More video studying, less CPU playing. If you must play, then organize your practice for efficiency. Don't try to practice 10 things at once. If you want to practice DDWDing, you have to just sit there and DD and WD in all the possible ways for 5 straight minutes. If you want to practice ledge dashing, grab the ledge in all the different ways and ledgedash until you don't mess up. After you've practiced the techniques that you wanted for that session and are about to get off, spend the last 10-15 minutes trying to incorporate them all together to see how instinctive they have become to your muscle memory. If you did the individual practices right, you should see a similar level of success in your overall practice. This is all just for playing by yourself btw (I highly recommend Name Entry Glitch with Fixed Camera Melee).

If you want to practice with CPUs, use a low level comp that won't interrupt you (I use 4 since they tend to mix up their DI pretty well) and just practice different scenarios. Neutral, comboing, and edgeguarding are the three main areas, but you can practice more specific stuff based on plat use, being on/near the ledge, using certain attacks, etc. As Falco, for example, you will want to practice low % pillar combos, but make sure you also branch out to practice combos without shine and if you find yourself doing a combo that will never work on a human, just abandon it. Other things to avoid are ONLY practicing vs. the fast fallers, never grabbing, and never playing patient. It's way too easy to get lazy and just approach over and over, but when you play a human they'll quickly realize that and you'll get owned. Imagine the CPU throwing out preemptive attacks at different timings or moving towards and away from you in different ways, and then react to that.

Most important thing is to maximize your human playing time. Go into the appropriate regional section and look for groups on FaceBook (there is a pinned thread that keeps track of all of them). It makes me happy to see so many new members trying to improve, so you should play local players who will feel the same and be eager to help you improve a lot faster than you could on your own.
 
Joined
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More video studying, less CPU playing. If you must play, then organize your practice for efficiency. Don't try to practice 10 things at once.......
Damn, that's a lot of stuff. Few more questions though;
My tech skill is quite remarkable. It's hard to prove it since I don't have a recording setup, and I lock up at tournaments (can't deal with offensive pressure whatsoever), so you just have to take my word for it. I can do almost everything automatic, except for smash/survival DI and wavelanding on platforms with characters that are not Mario, Falco, Fox, and Marth. I have been playing the game for a year, getting somewhere between 2-5 hours in per day, so I really feel as if I have hit a plateau in tech skill. There really isn't much else I can do if I improved it.
So, can you point me to the Facebook groups? It seems as if that would be the only way to get better.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Brampton, Ontario
What's the best way to practice light shielding and jabbing into grabs?
I've never seen anybody have trouble with this kind of stuff. To lightshield, you sort of..... lightly press the bumpers? What applications did you have in mind for it? Because it would be better to practise the light shielding scenarios than just shielding over and over.
Jab into grabs also requires easy practise. Just practice against a lvl one. A little routine I used to do with Fox is going on FD with a lvl one CPU and running up to it, jabbing, and running away over and over. It helped my movement (because I would often wavedash to jab and turn around) and helped me to time the end of the animation. Do the same thing, except add a grab.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Damn, that's a lot of stuff. Few more questions though;
My tech skill is quite remarkable. It's hard to prove it since I don't have a recording setup, and I lock up at tournaments (can't deal with offensive pressure whatsoever), so you just have to take my word for it. I can do almost everything automatic, except for smash/survival DI and wavelanding on platforms with characters that are not Mario, Falco, Fox, and Marth. I have been playing the game for a year, getting somewhere between 2-5 hours in per day, so I really feel as if I have hit a plateau in tech skill. There really isn't much else I can do if I improved it.
So, can you point me to the Facebook groups? It seems as if that would be the only way to get better.

copy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=238BPPK4xd0 or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZaEFTm1Yxs


check the sticky for facebook groups ... zzzzzzzzzzz
 

S7GF

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 19, 2013
Messages
223
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West St. Paul, MN
I've never seen anybody have trouble with this kind of stuff. To lightshield, you sort of..... lightly press the bumpers? What applications did you have in mind for it? Because it would be better to practise the light shielding scenarios than just shielding over and over.
Jab into grabs also requires easy practise. Just practice against a lvl one. A little routine I used to do with Fox is going on FD with a lvl one CPU and running up to it, jabbing, and running away over and over. It helped my movement (because I would often wavedash to jab and turn around) and helped me to time the end of the animation. Do the same thing, except add a grab.
Well, I play G&W, so I need to learn to lightshield on command. I can't yet, but I'm getting there. The problem comes with jab>grab. I can jab fine, but I'll often try to grab too early with Z, so I mess it up. I need to get the timing down.
 
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