Important Official Custom Moveset Project

[TheReflexWonder]

Another cool thing about said Mii glitch is that you don't have to unlock anything--You just have to have the patience to make 81 Mii sets. That would help a lot with logistics, for sure.

Can you transfer Mii sets from 3DS to Wii U as easily as you can other characters' movesets?

 

[Lavani]

The Mii glitch was just patched in 1.0.7 last night, wasn't it? I can't get Mewtwo customs using it anymore on 3DS, it gives me actual random sets instead of using what the Mii had.

 

[Gunla]

The Mii glitch was just patched in 1.0.7 last night, wasn't it? I can't get Mewtwo customs using it anymore on 3DS, it gives me actual random sets instead of using what the Mii had.

It has indeed been removed.

It was interesting, but overall, it was removed due to the fact that it was buggy and unpolished for Mewtwo as a product.

 

[SSBM_AEON]

Hey, I have a question about the custom sets for Miis.

Does each Mii in the evo list has a 1111 moveset with a 50/50 height/weight? Because it looks like there is.

Really nitpicky but couldn't you make the Miis with the QR codes editable so we could change the height and weight to 50/50 whilst keeping it consistent looking?

 

[Piford]

Hey, I have a question about the custom sets for Miis.

Does each Mii in the evo list has a 1111 moveset with a 50/50 height/weight? Because it looks like there is.

Really nitpicky but couldn't you make the Miis with the QR codes editable so we could change the height and weight to 50/50 whilst keeping it consistent looking?

EVO said there is that set for every Mii, but it wasn't part of the original project.

 

[DunnoBro]

Tested with boss and chudat, we're 100% convinced X23X on little mac is at the very least a critical set to be considered for the next update.

Grounding blow gives little mac platform and aerial pressure, as well as superior movement and landing options.

And combined with rising smash, it enables absurdly early kills. (Though it apparently doesn't work on all characters while grounded.... Greninja, and wii fit seem to fall out before the strong hit at even high percents. But sheik and mewtwo don't, it could also be a positioning/% thing though)

Any anti-air default upsecial gives pales in comparison to grounding blow, and grab follow-ups are pretty inconsistent.

Compact counter also sets up for grounding blow, but since they're in the air it doesn't really ground them consistently without platforms or low %. Haven't tried it out much.

Flame lunge might be best but all seem like ass.

 

[Saikyoshi]

This is going to be a very unpopular opinion, I'm sure, but I REALLY don't think that the Official Custom Moveset Project will be satisfactory.
I supported customs before the game was released, because I erroneously assumed specials could be swapped from the CSS. Now that I know that's NOT how it works, I'm not so sure we should be allowing non-"solid" (1111/2222/3333) custom sets at all.

Here's why I do not support the OCPM;

• It's too Smashboards-centric and encourages circlejerking. Chances are, a random given entrant doesn't go to Smashboards. Therefore, they will likely have practiced for a tournament where they heard customs were allowed using an "illegal" set, thinking it would be allowed by mistake.
• Practicing for it requires making a significant feature of the game entirely unusable. Want to freely play around with equipment, or simply not die in the more difficult single player modes? Too bad; all of your custom slots have to be eaten up by equipmentless sets in order to study matchups. It punishes players who enjoy those features in their own time; it's like inflicting a penalty on players who like to have items on when playing with their younger relatives, etc.
• It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The problem with arbitrarily deciding what sets are the "best", especially without sufficient data, leads to those sets having the most developed metas.

 

[DunnoBro]

• It's too Smashboards-centric and encourages circlejerking. Chances are, a random given entrant doesn't go to Smashboards. Therefore, they will likely have practiced for a tournament where they heard customs were allowed using an "illegal" set, thinking it would be allowed by mistake.

Then things were misunderstood or explained incorrectly. That's not the fault of the project.

[*]Practicing for it requires making a significant feature of the game entirely unusable. Want to freely play around with equipment, or simply not die in the more difficult single player modes? Too bad; all of your custom slots have to be eaten up by equipmentless sets in order to study matchups. It punishes players who enjoy those features in their own time; it's like inflicting a penalty on players who like to have items on when playing with their younger relatives, etc.

The 9/10 slots can be used and updated before the tournament (or for the specific matches it's an issue within). I do this myself and it's not anywhere near an issue.

• [*]It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The problem with arbitrarily deciding what sets are the "best", especially without sufficient data, leads to those sets having the most developed metas.

  
  We'll never have the data to determine what is "best" without a meta to test them in.
  
  Really tired of all this catch22 crap people keep bringing up.
  
  "Oh well there hasn't been testing so you can't test"
  
  derp.

 

[Thinkaman]

This is going to be a very unpopular opinion, I'm sure, but I REALLY don't think that the Official Custom Moveset Project will be satisfactory.
I supported customs before the game was released, because I erroneously assumed specials could be swapped from the CSS. Now that I know that's NOT how it works, I'm not so sure we should be allowing non-"solid" (1111/2222/3333) custom sets at all.

Here's why I do not support the OCPM;

• It's too Smashboards-centric and encourages circlejerking. Chances are, a random given entrant doesn't go to Smashboards. Therefore, they will likely have practiced for a tournament where they heard customs were allowed using an "illegal" set, thinking it would be allowed by mistake.
• Practicing for it requires making a significant feature of the game entirely unusable. Want to freely play around with equipment, or simply not die in the more difficult single player modes? Too bad; all of your custom slots have to be eaten up by equipmentless sets in order to study matchups. It punishes players who enjoy those features in their own time; it's like inflicting a penalty on players who like to have items on when playing with their younger relatives, etc.
• It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The problem with arbitrarily deciding what sets are the "best", especially without sufficient data, leads to those sets having the most developed metas.

Ideally people can load whichever sets they want on the fly, and the "official" sets are just suggestions to help more casual players not get overwhelmed. The project has always officially advocated (strongly) the ability to load whichever set players want.

Unfortunately, this is not possible in the most time-contrained environments, namely a super-national like EVO. Fortunately, 10 sets is more than enough for every character except Samus, Mega Man, Bowser Jr, and WFT. (And if those characters had to choose between having customs legal or not, the choice is overwhelmingly obvious!)

Tested with boss and chudat, we're 100% convinced X23X on little mac is at the very least a critical set to be considered for the next update.

Grounding blow gives little mac platform and aerial pressure, as well as superior movement and landing options.

This I agree with, but the endlag is pretty real and in practice the platform pressure I've found to be underwhelming. (I almost always run Grounding Blow; it's recovery potential is more valuable than the offensive utility of Jolt Haymaker imo)

And combined with rising smash, it enables absurdly early kills. (Though it apparently doesn't work on all characters while grounded.... Greninja, and wii fit seem to fall out before the strong hit at even high percents. But sheik and mewtwo don't, it could also be a positioning/% thing though)

Rising Smash's initial hitbox has insufficient weight knockback to link on any buried character except Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, and inconsistently on Kirby + G&W. It can sometimes link on Rosalina if and only if Luma sits in the middle of the attack so that the 2nd hitbox extends.

Rising Uppercut, on the other hand, can connect on several more character, including all those plus Rosalina (consistently), Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, and Falcon.

Any anti-air default upsecial gives pales in comparison to grounding blow, and grab follow-ups are pretty inconsistent.

???????????????????????????????????????

Huh? I feel like we're on different planets.

Grounding Blow has no anti-air followups, period. The opponent can tech for a generous frame advantage, and even if they don't the bounce leaves the opponent out of reach at most percents. It can also never kill an aerial opponent except off-stage (lol), is somewhat slow (at least 12 frames, dodgeable on reaction), and has limited height. It also cannot drop through platforms on the way down.

Rising Uppercut hits on frame 3, is frame 1 invincible, and kills at around 100%. It also goes higher, and can be used immediately close to the ledge--the most important nati-air use case! The endlag is also long, but you can at least drop through platforms.

One of these two moves is one of the best anti-air moves in the game. The other is, well, Grounding Blow.

But wait, there's more!

Rising Uppercut is guaranteed out of d-throw in most situations at high %s, giving Mac the earliest consistent grab -> kill option in the game. It's LM's only good rear OoS option; it's poor reach, but still frame 3 and deadly. As one of the game's only 2 frame 1 invincible moves, it can break out of all sorts of unique stuff, from Mario juggles to jab resets to repeating jabs. It's literally the game's best combo-breaker.

All this you give up if you take Rising Smash. Yes, it kills at 60%, but it also comes out frame 13. And that's the ground hitbox; an aerial opponent has even more time to dodge the actually scary part!

The only value Rising Smash has is as a superior alternative to running u-smash, and more punishing ledgepoke against opponent misplay on the edge.

Compact counter also sets up for grounding blow, but since they're in the air it doesn't really ground them consistently without platforms or low %. Haven't tried it out much.

I don't think there's any true synergy here. As stated, hitting people with Grounding Blow in the air is not really a win.

Flame lunge might be best but all seem like ***.

Yup! Defualt might be... situationally best for doubles; but dubious.

 

[DunnoBro]

Rising Smash's initial hitbox has insufficient weight knockback to link on any buried character except Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, and inconsistently on Kirby + G&W. It can sometimes link on Rosalina if and only if Luma sits in the middle of the attack so that the 2nd hitbox extends.

It was definitely working on way more characters than that, including normal/fast faller speeds. At least when comboing off buried opponents. (Which is the only reliable set-up for it anyway)

I'm also not getting the dthrow > default upspecial combo consistently. Is there any footage of it in a high level match?

Also I'm fairly certain sonic's spring is a better combo breaker. (more consistent/safer anyway)

 

[digiholic]

This is going to be a very unpopular opinion, I'm sure, but I REALLY don't think that the Official Custom Moveset Project will be satisfactory.
I supported customs before the game was released, because I erroneously assumed specials could be swapped from the CSS. Now that I know that's NOT how it works, I'm not so sure we should be allowing non-"solid" (1111/2222/3333) custom sets at all.

Here's why I do not support the OCPM;

• It's too Smashboards-centric and encourages circlejerking. Chances are, a random given entrant doesn't go to Smashboards. Therefore, they will likely have practiced for a tournament where they heard customs were allowed using an "illegal" set, thinking it would be allowed by mistake.
• Practicing for it requires making a significant feature of the game entirely unusable. Want to freely play around with equipment, or simply not die in the more difficult single player modes? Too bad; all of your custom slots have to be eaten up by equipmentless sets in order to study matchups. It punishes players who enjoy those features in their own time; it's like inflicting a penalty on players who like to have items on when playing with their younger relatives, etc.
• It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The problem with arbitrarily deciding what sets are the "best", especially without sufficient data, leads to those sets having the most developed metas.

The actual project allows for creating custom sets on the fly, and uses the pre-defined 8 only to save time, making most of your points moot. It's only EVO that won't allow custom uploads to the systems that is the reason we are using all 10 slots.

The actual OCPM is about saving time without limiting options. While Smashboards isn't all of the players, it is still a lot of players, and if everyone says "these four sets are really good, and a lot of us are gonna use them, do what you want with the other four." then that's a large number of players that no longer have to create a custom set.

 

[Thinkaman]

It was definitely working on way more characters than that, including normal/fast faller speeds. At least when comboing off buried opponents. (Which is the only reliable set-up for it anyway)

Rage lets it work on more characters, but you need a lot of damage to tip the scales. I needed 125% to connect on Sheik.

I'm also not getting the dthrow > default upspecial combo consistently. Is there any footage of it in a high level match?

You need to jump-cancel it out of a dash startup. This allows you to chase the DI, which by default is just a tad forward. Doing it cold will miss.

Also I'm fairly certain sonic's spring is a better combo breaker. (more consistent/safer anyway)

It's not as fast/effective/reliable, but like Rush Coil it's unusually safe at the cost of offering little reward (zero) on hit.

 

[Saikyoshi]

The actual project allows for creating custom sets on the fly, and uses the pre-defined 8 only to save time, making most of your points moot. It's only EVO that won't allow custom uploads to the systems that is the reason we are using all 10 slots.

The actual OCPM is about saving time without limiting options. While Smashboards isn't all of the players, it is still a lot of players, and if everyone says "these four sets are really good, and a lot of us are gonna use them, do what you want with the other four." then that's a large number of players that no longer have to create a custom set.

Oh... I think I get it now. Sorry.

 

[digiholic]

Oh... I think I get it now. Sorry.

Yeah, we're all a bit gripey about how EVO is not allowing uploads, but we all understand it's a bit of a necessary evil. Many other tournaments for the time being are adopting the setups so people can get ready for EVO.

It's important to note that EVO has dozens of fighting games, and Smash has historically been one of their slowest tournaments, so cutting down even a minute here and there speeds up the whole tournament significantly.

I wish there was more time to involve other communities, but there just wasn't. Smashboards is one of the largest communities dedicated to competitive smash bros, so it made sense to focus here if we could only hit up one community for input.

 

[Thinkaman]

The primary purpose of the project is to speed up events by having the most commonly used sets ready to go, and give more casual players advice on what to practice against. If someone wants to use another set, great! It didn't hurt to try, and hopefully the time saved by preloading 99% of sets people use makes the other 1% acceptable.

The secondary purpose is to let as many players as possible still be happy and competitive in a circumstance like EVO, where preloading is the only logistically reasonable option.


I don't fault EVO for going to extreme measures to make sure their 9-game international tourney runs on time. EVO is, anyway you slice it, an incredible undertaking.

It is also, far and away, the most serious and respectful any external organization has even been towards the smash community.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Rising Uppercut is...one of the game's only 2 frame 1 invincible moves

Nitpicking here, but, grounded Jolt Haymaker (and grounded Grounding Blow, now that I'm testing for that, too) are completely invincible from Frames 1-4. The earliest it can hit is on Frame 10 (and Frame 14 for Grounding Blow), but you can still avoid attacks with them.

 

[Thinkaman]

Nitpicking here, but, grounded Jolt Haymaker (and grounded Grounding Blow, now that I'm testing for that, too) are completely invincible from Frames 1-4. The earliest it can hit is on Frame 10 (and Frame 14 for Grounding Blow), but you can still avoid attacks with them.

Hmm, interesting. This is less relevant though, since neither moves can serve as an anti-juggle purpose and they can't be used as a "GET OFF ME" button. Still, interesting.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If you can react to a grab attempt, Jolt Haymaker has its place as a panic button; the four invincibility frames (and about a dozen invincibility frames afterward, specifically on his legs) are pretty sufficient to avoid everyone's two-frame grab attempts, and if they shield, crossing them up before using the attack makes it pretty difficult (if not impossible) for a good bit of characters to punish, like Mega Man and Luigi.

You're right that it doesn't really help against juggles, though I suppose aerial Grounding Blow might, since it serves as a slight stall into the equivalent of a (somewhat laggy) fastfall. That's something.

 

[Splash Damage]

Honestly, I'd vouch for X23X (or more broadly 2X3X) to be included right now over 2121. Every Mac on the thread cared very, very little about that last tenth slot, as all of our needs were accounted for in the 9 2X1X sets. We hadn't done much testing for Rising Smash at all, and after the sets were finalized I found myself regretting this, as I now see potential for Rising Smash to be used as part of a hyper offense set. X23X/2X3X having shown its potential with some of the better/best MD/VA smash 4 players definitely gives it priority over a niche, "Meh, let's include it to take up space" set. It unfortunately wont be available at Evo, but it definitely has a lot of merit given the kill power and hyper offensive style it gives Mac, as well as giving him even more stage presence and platform combatibility.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Outside of Teams, I don't expect Rising Smash's power to be worth its salt compared to Rising Uppercut.

 

[Splash Damage]

Outside of Teams, I don't expect Rising Smash's power to be worth its salt compared to Rising Uppercut.

Which is, of course, why it would only merit one set. There's likely a lot of things to be done with it we don't know of, and having that set that has been proven to have use over one that we just added on the grounds of "screw it why not" is probably ideal.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Where has it proven to have use? I kill just fine with Mac as it is; if anything, significant recovery is proven to have use.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The bigger problem with Rising Smash upon deeper exploration wasn't even the recovery downside (though that was substantial). The big problem is that Rising Smash is really slow while Rising Uppercut is not. Little Mac is a significantly limited character who was given Rising Uppercut as a super punishable if he whiffs move that otherwise hits quickly, hits powerfully, and beats absolutely everything else so no matter how abusive his opponent's tactics Little Mac always has at least one option. Running Rising Smash actually can leave you with zero just because it's too slow to hit in most situations where Rising Uppercut is practical, and that's why it's a lot worse. The only match-up the move even makes sense in IMO is a Little Mac ditto since that's the only MU in the game Mac can afford not to have a viable anti-air, but even still Rising Uppercut is a pretty good move and Rising Smash is still gutting your recovery which is especially tragic in a MU where you don't have to fear being gimped otherwise.

 

[Thinkaman]

The only match-up the move even makes sense in IMO is a Little Mac ditto since that's the only MU in the game Mac can afford not to have a viable anti-air, but even still Rising Uppercut is a pretty good move and Rising Smash is still gutting your recovery which is especially tragic in a MU where you don't have to fear being gimped otherwise.

And more importantly, in the Little Mac ditto, Rising Uppercut's f1 invincibility lets it break out of LM's rapid-jab! This is HUGELY important, since otherwise the matchup becomes in part an arms race to see who can do the fastest ground move. (And the high damage f1 jab dominates, if not for this interaction)

 

[warriorman222]

And more importantly, in the Little Mac ditto, Rising Uppercut's f1 invincibility lets it break out of LM's rapid-jab! This is HUGELY important, since otherwise the matchup becomes in part an arms race to see who can do the fastest ground move. (And the high damage f1 jab dominates, if not for this interaction)

Wouldn't you also be able to escape with Straight/Flaming Lunge? You're guaranteed to hit before they recover form endlag if you get at least one frame out, you do 4% more, and kills/gimps much faster, and put Little Mac offstage(like it matters, but Mac's onstage gimping is not to scoff at).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You don't have to go into the Rapid Jab for Jab1 to deal good damage.

Still leaning toward Jolt Haymaker as the definitive Forward-B as Mac. Having a significantly powerful aerial move that deals good damage and horizontal knockback is too useful to pass up. The synergy with D-Tilt against fastfallers is undeniable, with an extra 14% tacked onto the end of most D-Tilt strings and DI away getting true combo'd into it at KO percents. Outside of very low percents, hitting someone with it won't get you punished like Grounding Blow would, and it covers the ledge better for edgeguarding potential due to the hitbox staying more-or-less in the same place for a solid five frames.

 

[Splash Damage]

I don't know if there will be a definitive side-b for Mac, as they all have MU necessitation, like Jolt being necessary for ZSS and 3 being very useful for any and all projectile characters. That being said, if there was to be a definitive, Jolt would likely be it, as it's a solid option in all MUs on all stages.

Also, I've found that the main niche with Rising Smash is its ability to kill more early than anything barring the KO punch itself when paired with Jab Locks. For example, at ~50%, one or two D-Tilts>Nair>Footstool>Dair(jab lock)>Rising Smash is a kill combo on almost all the cast(though it gets harder the smaller the characters get). This can be done even earlier with rage(cringe), or on T&C, Halberd, & Delfino during transformations. There's also a pseudo 0-death that was theorized on the Mac combo boards, being U-Tilt>U-tilt>D-Tilt>D-tilt>Jolt Haymaker>Missed tech>D-tilt>D-tilt>Nair>Footstool>Dair>Rising Smash. I did some testing with it, and while it definately could work as I've almost never had someone tech Jolt Haymaker in any matches I've had, I think it's better to just go for the shorter combo at 40-50. That being said, this combo even being possible at all is notable.

Final Verdict on my end:I likely won't use Rising Smash in that many matches as Rising Uppercut is much better overall, but I do believe Rising Smash warrants at least one set, especially over 2121, due mainly to how threatening it makes his already respectable jab lock game.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

N-Air -> footstool isn't a true combo without getting the arm hit, as an aside.

I think it's likely too difficult for him to set up anything lock-related unless he can footstool directly out of a D-Tilt.

 

[Splash Damage]

N-Air -> footstool isn't a true combo without getting the arm hit, as an aside.

I think it's likely too difficult for him to set up anything lock-related unless he can footstool directly out of a D-Tilt.

So does it leave enough of a window for a majority of the cast to be able to escape it, or is it similar to Fox's double jabs where some characters have risky escape options that they can use if they are able to read your option? In my experience, if you never use aerials in a match unless to rarely start a jab lock setup, your opponent is unable to react to the very brief, single-digit frame window they have to avoid the footstool after the nair, if he even gets the fist hit. and that's just for characters who can escape it.
Also, he actually has quite a few options for setting up jab locks, most mainly revolving around F-air, as it is a low knockback move that often forces a tech situation. These include Nair OoS>forward drifting F-air>dash forward>D-air, low percent D-tilt>F-air>Dair(Though this is a bit of a silly one), things like that. Its also possible to throw/tilt your opponents onto a low platform and D-air them off of that, though its situational. This works especially well on T&C & halberd due to the nature of the platforms, and the fact that they're good for mac anyway.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

There's something like 15 frames between when the N-Air hits and when a footstool would come out, so it's not quite as unreactable as you're suggesting. Also, you have to be quite close in order for that N-Air to hit in the first place, so what else would you be expecting?

 

[Splash Damage]

There's something like 15 frames between when the N-Air hits and when a footstool would come out, so it's not quite as unreactable as you're suggesting. Also, you have to be quite close in order for that N-Air to hit in the first place, so what else would you be expecting?

I'll tell you what I wouldn't expect: the worst air character in the game to jump up after me and use an aerial. Mac never uses aerials in almost all cases, and it doesn't take long at all for him to jump after them and Nair, especially at percents where the D-tilt doesn't knock them up much and you can connect the Nair while they're still in hitstun, which is possible. Additionally, the opponent will be conditioned to be attempting a landing option rather than an anti air because, under almost all normal circumstances, they wont need to use one and using one against Mac is an unnecessary and bad option, as he can just shield and Up B OoS, Shieldgrab, Up Smash OoS, Side B OoS, any of his options. The idea is to condition them into not expecting it to the point where they won't be able to react in the small window they have, which is rather easy and doesn't take much doing.
Also, the N-air has just enough hitstun to demand a fast aerial to escape a footstool followup, even if they do react. A character like Luigi, Yoshi, Diddy, Mario, any character with a frame-3 aerial can escape it potentially if they buffer it, though nair-footstool-dair is too conditional to use on them anyway due to their size and aerial mobility.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Any character buffering any aerial or special move will not be the victim of a footstool; you cannot be footstooled out of any attacking animation (outside of a grab). You will fly up, but they will continue to do their move as if you weren't there. In the same way, an opponent mashing Jump while they have their double-jump will be out of range of another N-Air and can footstool Little Mac if they're close enough and Mac doesn't buffer another N-Air.

 

[Splash Damage]

Any character buffering any aerial or special move will not be the victim of a footstool; you cannot be footstooled out of any attacking animation (outside of a grab). You will fly up, but they will continue to do their move as if you weren't there. In the same way, an opponent mashing Jump while they have their double-jump will be out of range of another N-Air and can footstool Little Mac if they're close enough and Mac doesn't buffer another N-Air.

Like I said, any opponent without an incredibly early aerial/special wont be able to escape the footstool followup due to the slight hitstun of the Nair without jumping. Most characters don't have an aerial fast enough to escape the Nair-footstool, as most fast aerials start in a spot that is not where Mac would be during the footstool positioning. Also, if they jump away after a potential footstool, just down tilt, short hop slightly up towards them to bait a jump, fastfall to land, and chase their landing. Not having a double jump can be pretty bad against any character, especially when that means you can't mix up your landing.
Even so, my point is that they won't be expecting a Nair from Mac as he almost never goes in the air if he doesn't have to. What you're describing is that most/all opponents will be reading Mac to jump up after him and use his weakest move into a footstool. How often do you see a Mac doing that? Especially considering that most Macs who know of this jab lock setup don't use it more than once a match/set for precisely the reason of mixups. It's like a Counter, you know the character has it and can do it at any moment, and it is completely avoidable by going for a grab/command grab/slower aerial. Why, then, do counters ever land successfully? Because the player uses it in moderation and is smart about how their opponent will attack and when, and only uses it as a mixup.
Additionally, like I said, opponents are very unlikely to go for a fast Anti-Air option against Mac when they're knocked in the air as they don't need to and it can get them punished if Mac shields it. Odds are they'll go for a slightly slower aerial that fits better for spacing to ensure them a safe landing. Let's say I'm facing a Falcon player as Mac, and after most D-tilts I go for a running U-smash, even at percents where he can combat it before the super armor kicks in. In reaction, let's say the falcon player goes for a D-air every time I D-tilt him to combat the U-smash, and every time it works and he always gets a setup off of it. Then, after a random one of the D-tilts, I instead go for a Nair-Footstool. In this case, the Falcon player, who is conditioned to be going for Dairs, will have buffered a slow aerial that won't have nearly the speed or top hitboxes to combat a Mac going for this option, and he will be in a prime setup for a jab lock. (I know some of the specific info in this scenario may be a bit off, but it is just an example)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If a character uses LITERALLY ANY MOVE in the air, they are unaffected by footstools for the entirety of that move's animation, which works for buffered aerials, too. If you go for N-Air -> footstool and the opponent buffers a high mid-air jump (such as Falcon or Sheik), Little Mac will get footstooled because they will rise above you before you can jump. N-Air is something like -4 frame advantage on hit at any percent.

Yes, you can N-Air -> footstool in very, very specific situations (for instance, Rosalina can't reasonably mash Up-B or her lingering N-Air because it lasts forever and she's trying to recover), but other than those very specific situations, people getting caught by it are bad players and/or have significant matchup inexperience.

 

[Splash Damage]

Yes, you can N-Air -> footstool in very, very specific situations (for instance, Rosalina can't reasonably mash Up-B or her lingering N-Air because it lasts forever and she's trying to recover), but other than those very specific situations, people getting caught by it are bad players and/or have significant matchup inexperience.

What of them if their aerial begins a frame or two before the nair? There's more possible ways for this to occur than we're acknowledging. It may not be the most reliable on paper, but according to one of your earlier posts, nair-footstool combos off of the arm hit, or Mac can time the Nair to come out just as the opponent's hitstun wears off to catch their aerial so that they can't buffer it to avoid the footstool.
And even so, Mac could just cut out the middleman and go straight for a Footstool if the opponent is at low enough percent to follow up with that out of hitstun or if he thinks his opponent will just DI away without an option, or he can use Forward air after a D-tilt instead at lower percents to mix them up and get a quick dair followup off of a missed tech, or simply jump at them and use F-air off of a roll read then drift after them with a dair, Ect Ect.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The glove hit has priority over the arm hit, so in order to land it, you either need to RAR a N-Air and move inside of them (and if Mac has his back to you, why aren't you just hitting him?) or to come from below while they're falling onto you (which loses to their footstool; they'll get a free recovery in that situation).

If Mac is coming at you in the air, a footstool requires you to be right on top of them and for you to spend your double-jump. If you don't footstool them, you are now directly above the opponent without a double-jump. Have fun with that. Also, they can generally stick out a move to prevent you from doing much of anything in that situation

If you have the time to do a F-Air straight from the ground on a read, you have the time to just land a sweetspot U-Smash, which is way more reliable and doesn't require anyone to miss a tech to get results from. It's just way more reliable to try to read the tech, since that works well whether or not they tech, whereas a whiffed D-Air generally leaves you at a disadvantage.

I'm not saying it's worthless, but the better players get, the fewer times this situation comes up.

 

[Splash Damage]

The glove hit has priority over the arm hit, so in order to land it, you either need to RAR a N-Air and move inside of them (and if Mac has his back to you, why aren't you just hitting him?) or to come from below while they're falling onto you (which loses to their footstool; they'll get a free recovery in that situation).

This is assuming they actually attempt a footstool, which is a very uncommon option unless they're using a character with confirms off of one. Also, this will require some labbing to confirm, but I'm fairly certain that D-tilt>RAR>Nair can be combo'd reliably on any character without a frame 3 nair, though I will have to spend more time in the lab to be certain.

If Mac is coming at you in the air, a footstool requires you to be right on top of them and for you to spend your double-jump. If you don't footstool them, you are now directly above the opponent without a double-jump. Have fun with that. Also, they can generally stick out a move to prevent you from doing much of anything in that situation.

Actually not that bad when you consider Mac has a near-instant Nair than can potentially link to his jab for a ~15% jab combo(or a jab1 confirm into Up B to net a kill), a frame 3 Up B that has sufficient range and is invincible on frame 1, and the second strongest counter in the game. And, if coming from below works to get the arm hit, he can likely avoid any moves that come out beside or above their character.

If you have the time to do a F-Air straight from the ground on a read, you have the time to just land a sweetspot U-Smash, which is way more reliable and doesn't require anyone to miss a tech to get results from. It's just way more reliable to try to read the tech, since that works well whether or not they tech, whereas a whiffed D-Air generally leaves you at a disadvantage.

This I can definitely agree with, and I have had some occasions where I tried to perform a f-air off a roll read and I simply missed the positioning where I could have easily hit an Up Smash as the positioning for that is much more natural to me.
However, given the chance and ability to lab with it to make it more reliable, wouldn't you rather have the ability to get that extra bit of damage in and be able to charge that sweetspoted U-smash, or go for any other option you want including a KO punch or Rising Smash(If you wanna be that guy)? It's somewhat unreliable and you're better off cutting out the middleman, yes, but judging by the amount of people who have actually teched a forward air from Mac whenever I or anyone else has gone for one, it's at least worth it to lab with and test.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This is assuming they actually attempt a footstool, which is a very uncommon option unless they're using a character with confirms off of one. Also, this will require some labbing to confirm, but I'm fairly certain that D-tilt>RAR>Nair can be combo'd reliably on any character without a frame 3 nair, though I will have to spend more time in the lab to be certain.


Actually not that bad when you consider Mac has a near-instant Nair than can potentially link to his jab for a ~15% jab combo(or a jab1 confirm into Up B to net a kill), a frame 3 Up B that has sufficient range and is invincible on frame 1, and the second strongest counter in the game. And, if coming from below works to get the arm hit, he can likely avoid any moves that come out beside or above their character.


This I can definitely agree with, and I have had some occasions where I tried to perform a f-air off a roll read and I simply missed the positioning where I could have easily hit an Up Smash as the positioning for that is much more natural to me.
However, given the chance and ability to lab with it to make it more reliable, wouldn't you rather have the ability to get that extra bit of damage in and be able to charge that sweetspoted U-smash, or go for any other option you want including a KO punch or Rising Smash(If you wanna be that guy)? It's somewhat unreliable and you're better off cutting out the middleman, yes, but judging by the amount of people who have actually teched a forward air from Mac whenever I or anyone else has gone for one, it's at least worth it to lab with and test.

It's not uncommon if they understand how it works. You can't rely on gimmicks to win reliably in high-level play, and if you get hit by N-Air, you should just be mashing Jump on reaction.

Little Mac has more endlag if he lands immediately after N-Air-ing than if he does a follow-up move in N-Air's IASA. Since you're already frame negative on hit, doing that into a Counter seems like a bad idea, since that activates on Frame 5.

 

[Splash Damage]

Little Mac has more endlag if he lands immediately after N-Air-ing than if he does a follow-up move in N-Air's IASA. Since you're already frame negative on hit, doing that into a Counter seems like a bad idea, since that activates on Frame 5.

I was referring to being far enough above them without a double jump after having naired then jumped in an attempt to footstool. To land safely he can Up B to avoid their option with the invincibility and catch them with the starting hitbox on frame 3, Nair them out of an attack startup animation if they opt for a smash attack or other slow enough move(Though that is pretty uncommon), or just counter their move to reset stage control.

 

[Ansou]

Guys, isn't this where you should be discussing Little Mac's custom moves? It feels like half of this thread (and the previous CMP thread) is just filled with discussion on Little Mac. Also, Amazing Ampharos , the OP that I just linked is terribly outdated.