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Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)
- Thread starter AlphaZealot
- Start date
- Status
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
the_Capt_Falcon_Master
Smash Lord
so because someone disagrees with you they are wrong.....what a welcoming and friendly community.......
Yuna-Maria
Smash Ace
No.
Because someone is wrong, they are wrong.
As you can see from ninety percent of this thread, most of us are totally fine with debate. However, when someone posts something blatantly antagonistic, what do you expect us to do, just lie down and take it? Maybe that's how you roll, but most of us have a little more dignity than that.
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
I didn't say he was right or wrong.
That was just a lousy piece of flame-bait that pretty much amounted to zilch in the way of contribution. Notice how no one is really responding to the post?
Yeah.
Smooth Criminal
Yuna-Maria
Smash Ace
*raises hand*
Thank you.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
No because someone who is wrong and stupid is well, wrong and stupid.
poast less lurk moar.
I'm simply stating my opinion, and in a debate thats what your supposed to do, if you don't agree with it fine, you don't need to, and I'm totally fine if you disagree with me, I'm betting 90% of the people here would, I'm simply stating my opinion and I'm pretty sure I'm entitled to that. If you disagree with me thats fine, but if your gonna throw out anyone's opinion who does not seem correct to you then why bother posting in a debate thread where there is sure to be people who find the opposite of what you think.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Fact>opinion
In anygame where things are different there will be tiers.
Good day or rather good night.
In anygame where things are different there will be tiers.
Good day or rather good night.
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
I stopped right there.
Please contribute something worthwhile aside from "TIRES DUN EXITS" or "YOU GUYS SHOULDN'T BE DISCUSSING TIER LISTS FOR BRAWL."
Smooth Criminal
Yuna-Maria
Smash Ace
Your opinion isn't worth stating.
So let me get this straight, if any opinion here is posted that is not similar to your own you will just throw it out and think of it as garbage, then why should anyone post here? Humm and I thought this was a "friendly welcoming community" but apparently not, could a moderator just send all of my posts to the garbage along with these others, as far as I'm concerned I'm done with this debate, especially when there are people who won't even acknowledge another's opinion.
Yuna-Maria
Smash Ace
Aww, look at that!
He's trying to guilt-trip us, everyone!
Isn't he just the cutest little boy you ever saw?
Don't feel bad, though, honey bunny. We say the same thing to everyone who claims all the tier debaters are idiots. ^___^
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
Or you could just delete them yourself and save a moderator the trouble.
Up to you, though.
Our only thing is this:
Lurk moar, post less.
Smooth Criminal
Nope, just those who won't even acknowledge other's opinion ^__^.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
awww he's trying to say opinion>fact.
Are you going to disprove the theory of gravity too?
Anyways I was on AIB and boy the n00bs own the place.
Are you going to disprove the theory of gravity too?
Anyways I was on AIB and boy the n00bs own the place.
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
I stopped reading your post after you said this game feels more evenly balanced. You either haven't reached either skill or analyzation level to see this or being plain ignorant of your surrondings.
Please do not tell me or other what we can or can't debate. Who the hell do you think you are to say otherwise?
Please do not tell me or other what we can or can't debate. Who the hell do you think you are to say otherwise?
Yuna-Maria
Smash Ace
Oh, I certainly acknowledge your opinion.
Your opinion is just 100% wrong is all.
No hard feelings, just do what everyone's telling you. MURK LOAR
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
no no no its loast pess murk loar!
Anyone wanna get back on topic? I would but I can't think of anything. :D Apparently at midnight we can't find anything else to do besides have a flame party.
@ Dik-Dik: Your post has been flamed simply because it's telling us all to stop doing what we're doing. If you don't want to get flamed, contribute to the conversation in a more constructive way.
@ ShadowLink: Yup. That's why I don't go to AIB anymore. Remember the tier list they made?
@ Dik-Dik: Your post has been flamed simply because it's telling us all to stop doing what we're doing. If you don't want to get flamed, contribute to the conversation in a more constructive way.
@ ShadowLink: Yup. That's why I don't go to AIB anymore. Remember the tier list they made?
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
*shudders*
As soon as I saw someone state Sonic is bottom tier since he is predictable and has a gimpable recovery I threw up in my mouth a bit.
Oh and how Ganondorf and yoshi were bottom tier material.
*sigh*
Sadly i also lost to a MK who spammed his Dsmash on my Link.
I just barely lost T_T
As soon as I saw someone state Sonic is bottom tier since he is predictable and has a gimpable recovery I threw up in my mouth a bit.
Oh and how Ganondorf and yoshi were bottom tier material.
*sigh*
Sadly i also lost to a MK who spammed his Dsmash on my Link.
I just barely lost T_T
Ratherion
Smash Journeyman
Worst, just died to a newbie lucas who decided to play on Shadow Moses and spam the Usmash on squirtle, then say that he's better than me.
Good thing I have hax, yay for mortar sliding the newbies!
Anyhow, You people are smart and have figured this out already, but I don't QUITE get it.
Let's all admit that there are more people playing MK, Snake, D3, Wario, DK and other high tiers in the important tournies than the lower-tier characters, yes?
So I guess my question is: Does the amount of entrants at a character-played ratio have anything to do with it? I mean if you have a 100 man tourny with 80 MK players... Yes, MK is going to take top, second and third, but those results are skewed just a bit are they not?
Good thing I have hax, yay for mortar sliding the newbies!
Anyhow, You people are smart and have figured this out already, but I don't QUITE get it.
Let's all admit that there are more people playing MK, Snake, D3, Wario, DK and other high tiers in the important tournies than the lower-tier characters, yes?
So I guess my question is: Does the amount of entrants at a character-played ratio have anything to do with it? I mean if you have a 100 man tourny with 80 MK players... Yes, MK is going to take top, second and third, but those results are skewed just a bit are they not?
The Ganon part I think most people are starting to get over. But Yoshi seems to be doomed to obscurity once again... the way I figure it, there's three things that contribute to a character's obscurity:
1. No great smasher mains them. As soon as every famous smasher from the old Melee days has chosen their mains, it's game over for the other characters... the bandwagon effect runs rampant on SWF.
2. They aren't easy to pick up and play. Remember how Ike and Pit were revered in the early days? That's because they don't initially take any skill to play as. Characters like Yoshi, the IC's and PT are all characters that require a large amount of practice, and many people forgo the time they would have to put in despite the hefty payoff for mastering a character with a large learning curve.
3. How often they're talked about on SWF. Snake and MK are referenced constantly, as are Marth and Falco (not G-Dub, surprisingly). Captain Falcon and Ganon are usually referred to as the worst characters. All this name-dropping makes a character more likely to be used, and characters like Jiggz and Link are feeling the hate right now.
Not sure what any of this has to do with anything, but I guess I have a tendency to rant.
1. No great smasher mains them. As soon as every famous smasher from the old Melee days has chosen their mains, it's game over for the other characters... the bandwagon effect runs rampant on SWF.
2. They aren't easy to pick up and play. Remember how Ike and Pit were revered in the early days? That's because they don't initially take any skill to play as. Characters like Yoshi, the IC's and PT are all characters that require a large amount of practice, and many people forgo the time they would have to put in despite the hefty payoff for mastering a character with a large learning curve.
3. How often they're talked about on SWF. Snake and MK are referenced constantly, as are Marth and Falco (not G-Dub, surprisingly). Captain Falcon and Ganon are usually referred to as the worst characters. All this name-dropping makes a character more likely to be used, and characters like Jiggz and Link are feeling the hate right now.
Not sure what any of this has to do with anything, but I guess I have a tendency to rant.
Leprechaun_Drunk
Smash Journeyman
I now present my fellow smashers with the worst tier list ever constructed. For the record I will be protecting every orifice on my body from the **** and flames that will ensue from creating this list. Despite this I will stand by my list strongly. Hopefully a select few will see the beauty in my list. More than likely though, I shall be flamed. Bringz itz yo!
Top-tier:
Mary Jane.
High-tier:
Snake
G&W
D3
Luigi
DK
Wario
ROB
Toon Link
Pikachu
Mid-tier:
Olimar
Fox
Peach
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Diddy Kong
Lucas
Ness
Mario
Wolf
Pokemon Trainer
Sheik
Ganondorf
ZZS
Sonic
Zelda
Bowser
Low-Tier:
Lucario
Samus
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Link
Yoshi
Bottom-Tier:
Pit
Ike
Falco
Marth
Meta-Knight
Fly high like kites, yo
Top-tier:
Mary Jane.
High-tier:
Snake
G&W
D3
Luigi
DK
Wario
ROB
Toon Link
Pikachu
Mid-tier:
Olimar
Fox
Peach
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Diddy Kong
Lucas
Ness
Mario
Wolf
Pokemon Trainer
Sheik
Ganondorf
ZZS
Sonic
Zelda
Bowser
Low-Tier:
Lucario
Samus
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Link
Yoshi
Bottom-Tier:
Pit
Ike
Falco
Marth
Meta-Knight
Fly high like kites, yo
Grunt
Smash Master
well, not too bad...but then....
jiovanni007
Smash Ace
When I proposed, people said I was stupid, prepare yourself...
Ratherion
Smash Journeyman
@tier list- So... he found the median?
@jio- can't flame somone for a question :D
@jio- can't flame somone for a question :D
Frown
poekmon
I... don't get it.
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
- Messages
- 6,860
I agree with Dik-Dik for the most part. He's not saying that tiers are totally stupid as far as I can tell. He's saying that this far into a new game, there shouldn't be tiers and you shouldn't pick your mains based from the tiers. Also, I believe he's saying that they're balanced enough so that any character can beat any other character with practice.(which is true) If a person understands his main so well that he can beat any character regardless of tier with his own skill, then tiers don't mean anything to that person. They can compete with everyone.(remember taj from melee?) Y'all need to quit flaming him b/c he's sharing his opinion in the thread where it belongs. He's trying to explain that the game will change so much in the future-from now- that the true future tiers(that shouldn't even exist anyways b/c they're so close together) are going to be totally different by the time each character's full potential is discovered, and that they're pointless right now. That's somewhat true for the most part though. The tiers that are today will change and are stepping stones basically. It's a foundry for the future tier list. Here's an example: Pikachu will never be bottom tier, but he might go back down to middle tier some day? He's not in his absolute final spot right now. In fact, if you remember back to the early days when brawl game first came out in the U.S., DK was regarded as crap. bottom tier by everyone. Look at him now-upper tier with a bunch of great tourney placings. It must have been awesome for all the people that mained DK from the beginning who stuck with him anyways, not b/c of tiers or matchups, but b/c they loved him as a character. I personally love Olimar's playstyle and I liked his pikmin games, so I stuck with him. He's high-mid, upper-low right now fyi.
As for this tier discussion, I enjoy the excitement of being a part of this. I enjoy discussing potential, thinking of the future metagame and it's role on today's lists. I enjoy reading matchup threads, learning how people think and analyze each character, learning about the stereotypical bottom tier characters and pointing out mistakes in people's analysis' of them.
If you choose your main from looking at today's tiers, you should lose at life, b/c whether you want to realize it or not, that's metaphorically the way life is. You should make decisions off of what you think is right and will benefit you later on, not what everyone else is doing or what you think is best right now. This is basically what I think DD's saying when he "invades this thread for no reason." I respect his opinion, and I commend you for taking the time to share your opinion in this hostile thread, Dik-Dik.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=141725&page=44
As for this tier discussion, I enjoy the excitement of being a part of this. I enjoy discussing potential, thinking of the future metagame and it's role on today's lists. I enjoy reading matchup threads, learning how people think and analyze each character, learning about the stereotypical bottom tier characters and pointing out mistakes in people's analysis' of them.
If you choose your main from looking at today's tiers, you should lose at life, b/c whether you want to realize it or not, that's metaphorically the way life is. You should make decisions off of what you think is right and will benefit you later on, not what everyone else is doing or what you think is best right now. This is basically what I think DD's saying when he "invades this thread for no reason." I respect his opinion, and I commend you for taking the time to share your opinion in this hostile thread, Dik-Dik.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=141725&page=44
Wow, he got what I was trying to say *high fives* Thank you 
I absolutely support your comments, every character has the potential to be great, and making a tier list won't help. To me it seems like more of a popularity contest, people who follow it will end up adding to the meta-game of said character while the "lower tier" characters probably won't be played as often, and that makes me quite sad. I've played Kirby and Ness since the N64 days and for a while been playing Game & Watch who I fell in love with instantly.
DanGR: I commend you for actually supporting my arguments, I'm actually quite surprised anyone supports me.
I absolutely support your comments, every character has the potential to be great, and making a tier list won't help. To me it seems like more of a popularity contest, people who follow it will end up adding to the meta-game of said character while the "lower tier" characters probably won't be played as often, and that makes me quite sad. I've played Kirby and Ness since the N64 days and for a while been playing Game & Watch who I fell in love with instantly.
DanGR: I commend you for actually supporting my arguments, I'm actually quite surprised anyone supports me.
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
There's a difference between hidden character potential and implying this game was perfectly balanced to the point that everyone could compete. Let's face the music here, not every character is made equal, some will suck. Now certainly, people can change their views if proper evvidence is brought up, but this doesn't change the fact that some characters will see little, if any use in the competitve smash scene, simply because they are not cut out for it . You will almost NEVER, see a Captain Falcon beat out a Snake in a tournament level stting where Tier lists would apply, and while certain people can use Low/Bottom Tier characters effectively, you have to know for the most part in serious competitions they used Better overall characters (Taj's real main was Sheik/Marth IIRC). Now it's obvious that you could have such a great skill advantage over another to the point where CF could win, but at the current Metagame level, this ideal just isn't possible when everyone is at or around the same area of skill. Characters with glaring weaknesses and very little strengths will get thrown to the curb, it is survival of the fittest and not a matter of fairness or not. No characters are created equal, saying otherwise is foolish. Not to mention, who is he, or anyone for that matter, to stop competitive players from researching the game and finding out Tiers and arranging them in the awaited Tier list? Do you really think ANYONE has that authority? That's nonsense. He also seems to be not only heavily ignorant of Smash's competitive scene, but is also somewhat hypocritial and contradictory when he says all the pros use Top Tier characters, then points out Taj and Gimpyfish as an example.
He's nothing more than another ignorant troll in this thread, the reason we act so harshly is because we're so **** tired of crap like this popping up all the time and repeating the same answers only to have another appear 1 hour later.
PK Hexagon
Smash Apprentice
I'm just loling at the fact that he thinks Game and Watch is bad.
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
- Messages
- 6,860
"Now it's obvious that you could have such a great skill advantage over another to the point where CF could win, but at the current Metagame level, this ideal just isn't possible when everyone is at or around the skill area of skill."
This^ sums up my belief on tiers in general. People can and DO have the skills to compete with the best characters-with the worst ones, and tiers do change over time. This is why tiers shouldn't be the reason you pick up a character. It's largely based on the proportion of people using one character over another, thus more people finding out new ways of playing the character, thus the character places better in tourneys partly b/c the proportion of one character over another is skewed, but also b/c the character might be a little better, but (in reality)not as much. Thus dik-dik says the tiers are closer than people think. hopefully I cleared this misconception up.
P.s. I want to help to create accurate tiers. I want to contribute to this thread, so let's not waste time clearing up that we actually DO agree with each other, but not to the extent that we agree perfectly with one another.
Edit:
This^ sums up my belief on tiers in general. People can and DO have the skills to compete with the best characters-with the worst ones, and tiers do change over time. This is why tiers shouldn't be the reason you pick up a character. It's largely based on the proportion of people using one character over another, thus more people finding out new ways of playing the character, thus the character places better in tourneys partly b/c the proportion of one character over another is skewed, but also b/c the character might be a little better, but (in reality)not as much. Thus dik-dik says the tiers are closer than people think. hopefully I cleared this misconception up.
P.s. I want to help to create accurate tiers. I want to contribute to this thread, so let's not waste time clearing up that we actually DO agree with each other, but not to the extent that we agree perfectly with one another.
Edit:
He doesn't look at tiers, remember? He wouldn't know.
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
Not to mention, he hides behind the "Well I'm entitled to my opinion" crap when he gets flustered.
You are NOT entitled to your opinion in a debate. The entire point of one is to prove that your ideal/argument and more logical and truthful than the other's. There's a reason arguments like yours get shot down immidiately, because simply, it isn't true, it's complete crap, and should be killed with holy water and fire. One thing I just cannot comprehend is that why can't people like you ever realize when you're wrong, accept the facts, and move on with your posting rights on here? It's plain silly.
You shouldn't try to start an argument/flame war and then hide behind that crap. That just shows you're doing this for nothing more than annoyance and trolling.
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
Whoh, now if you were arguing about this at a casual standpoint, then you're absolutely correct. I also agree that you shouldn't pick your main based on Tiers, becuase what's the point of choosing a character like Snake or Metaknight when you blow *** with them and are much better with the likes of Ganon, Link, and Samus??
But there is one thing I disagree on.....the Tiers in Brawl are looking to be much wider when Characters like Snake and MK are destoying everything in sight and virtually invincible while characters like CF and Jiggs look like complete crap so far. Melee definately had better balance concerning the competitive scene
Leprechaun_Drunk
Smash Journeyman
Neither do i man. that's why mary jane is in the top tier.
Browny
Smash Hater
for the person who wanted recent videos of what sonic is/can do, I cant remember who said it, lucky put some recent ones up
http://youtube.com/user/sasuke90650 (check the 5 ones he put up today)
also if anyone thinks sonic's recovery is anything less than top tier (madness), watch them all and then tell me what you think
http://youtube.com/user/sasuke90650 (check the 5 ones he put up today)
also if anyone thinks sonic's recovery is anything less than top tier (madness), watch them all and then tell me what you think
Theftz22
Smash Lord
He couldn't kill danimals until 175. Lol.
Browny
Smash Hater
and danimals didnt kill him until 200?
your point?
your point?
- Status