Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Sh1n0b1]

Since when did this thread all of a sudden become about DBZ?

 

[Pure-???]

Since when did this thread all of a sudden become about DBZ?

that's a good question.

 

[Kaizo]

He was joking if you didn't understand.



I'm glad how you ignored all my points then demand me to watch a Mario combo video. Do you understand that Mario literally has no real combos, only setups that can lead into follow ups which all characters can do, and Mario doesn't do exceptionally well in that category.

Now go back and actually respond the points in my post.

I thought he might have been joking, but I wanted to make sure, because chaingrabbing seems kind of stupid to ban (certain infinites might not, I'm not sure about the rules really)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2Uill9wgXQ4

Shut the **** up now. That's all the evidence you need as far as cape and skeet are concerned. This is what I mean by "Mario is a good character, you just have to use him properly". A player with good knowledge of the character completely changes the entire nature of the character when compared to someone who's just generally good. Jiggs' aerials are probably better, but it's much harder to use them since Jiggs is grossly incomplete as a character. But as I said, her weight makes it harder to chase people that are smart enough to airdodge out of WOPs.

I'm not saying Mario is going to rule tourneys everywhere or anything, I'm just saying you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Since when did this thread all of a sudden become about DBZ?

That's my bad, actually. I made an offshot comment about someone who had a Gogeto avatar or whatever, because his post was just really annoying....reminded me of Gaia. I didn't expect it to go anywhere, but it did. Sorry about that.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2Uill9wgXQ4

This is the worst Smash combo video I've ever seen! Good work proving Corner-Trap right, dude!

 

[Sh1n0b1]

I agree that the Mario in the video was quite solid, but the video overall was really boring.

 

[Kaizo]

That's my bad, actually. I made an offshot comment about someone who had a Gogeto avatar or whatever, because his post was just really annoying....reminded me of Gaia. I didn't expect it to go anywhere, but it did. Sorry about that.



This is the worst Smash combo video I've ever seen! Good work proving Corner-Trap right, dude!

Well, if you were looking for combos, you probably won't find any, so sorry. But yea, proof enough that Mario isn't a bad character. His only real downfall is his recovery which he can't help, and his range which he can compensate for minorly with fireball approaches and fireball/cape camping.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Well, if you were looking for combos, you probably won't find any, so sorry. But yea, proof enough that Mario isn't a bad character. His only real downfall is his recovery which he can't help, and his range which he can compensate for minorly with fireball approaches and fireball/cape camping.

I've played better Marios than the idiot in that video.
Mario sucks.
Deal with it like I had to.

 

[Sh1n0b1]

Who else felt like sleeping in the duration of that video?

 

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

So let's get back to tiers...

I think metaknight is better than snake.

*crowd gasps*

 

[Sh1n0b1]

So let's get back to tiers...

I think metaknight is better than snake.

*crowd gasps*

Its funny that your a Snake main and you say that.

 

[Kaizo]

So let's get back to tiers...

I think metaknight is better than snake.

*crowd gasps*

I do too....MK has so many god ****ed deadly options....Snake's range is insane, and his control of the field is very good, but MK can operate under just about any circumstances thrown at him (besides Norfair =/) . The fact that he's so versatile is what makes him so bat**** good in the first place.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Who else felt like sleeping in the duration of that video?

The music kept me awake. Mario music is so upbeat and adorable. ^_^

So let's get back to tiers...

I think metaknight is better than snake.

*crowd gasps*

I'd disagree, but I can see why you say that.

 

[jiovanni007]

l2read. I quote your Low tier and about half of your mid tier characters to say Jiggly was as good as them and better than most of them.

Yes, Jigglypuff lost the power of the rest, but that only means she isn't utter **** like she used to be. She still HAS a rest that can kill a little above 50/60 instead of at like, 10, and it's harder to land for sure, but it is still useable.

She is just as light as she used to be, I don't know where this is coming from. She only seems to die way earlier than normal because people tend to live forever in this game, which is not as important because Jigglypuff is one of the few characters who can still get gimps in this game because her WoP is still really good.

Downsmash was never a very good edgeguarding tool, you must not have played Jigglypuff. It was always better to go off the stage and attack the person, which this game now forces you to do anyway. Downsmash never hit ****.

She is NOT all around weak, have you used her in Brawl? Her fsmash is still a kill move like it was in melee, her fair got a huge buff so it can kill, she can still rack up damage extremely quickly due to her multiple jumps and aerial maneuverability, and her recovery is still godly.

I'm not arguing that she's a top tier character, but she is certainly GOOD and deserves a spot somewhere in mid tier, and is definitely NOT a bottom or low tier character.

Yes her fsmash is still strong, and she can still WoP to and extent but that's not enough to keep her out of the bottom tier. She dies at roughly 70-80% on a very regular basis so even though her recovery is the best in the game, she has little chance to use it. As far as the dsmash goes, you should've use it more in melee as it was the best punishing tool Jiggs had to against opponents when the opportunity was not there to chase (i.e. she has to travel across the stage) because a simple spot dodge and dsmash would semi-spike anyone into oblivion. If you let Jiggs rack up damage on you than you are just plain ignorant, plain and simple (no offense). Her approach is laughable outside of pound which can be easily adjusted to and she can no longer juggle as well as she used to due to the lack of hitstun and the tiny hitbox on her uair. Rest can still be comboed in Brawl, but as you said before it won't kill until they hit at about 50-60%. If Jiggs is behind in that match that would put her at roughly 90-100% or more than likely dead. Her main weapons are gone and there's not much she can to any of the cast.

 

[jiovanni007]

So let's get back to tiers...

I think metaknight is better than snake.

*crowd gasps*

I agree, which is why I put him a the top of mine. He has better match-ups overall and the tournament standings are basically even. So logically speaking, Meta Knight should be on the top spot for now at least. Also, I believe GaW will eventually make Top Tier. He has the skills, but his tournament standings mimic those that are around him and are still not near Snake and Meta. Maybe not this first one, but when the second comes out, don't be surprised to see GaW in the Top Tier, maybe even in the 2nd spot.

 

[RedfishX]

I agree, which is why I put him a the top of mine. He has better match-ups overall and the tournament standings are basically even. So logically speaking, Meta Knight should be on the top spot for now at least. Also, I believe GaW will eventually make Top Tier. He has the skills, but his tournament standings mimic those that are around him and are still not near Snake and Meta. Maybe not this first one, but when the second comes out, don't be surprised to see GaW in the Top Tier, maybe even in the 2nd spot.

With MK and Snake, it is so dang hard to choose which one is better. Personally, I think it could go either way, but from what I've seen, MK is a bit more common to see in matches, and he is excellent. MK probably should be number 1.

And then the G&W point...He'll be top tier but I doubt he'll get to 2 unless somebody finds yet another awesome thing about him.

I haven't heard any discussion on D3 in a while. My opinion is he's low in high tier, but he'll work his way up as his play rises.

 

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

The music kept me awake. Mario music is so upbeat and adorable. ^_^


I'd disagree, but I can see why you say that.

Not including sig (lol I'm done with that DEATH thing)

So anyway, Brawl is a defense game right? Power shield is the future! But unlike Snake, meta has 0 lag after his attacks, and can break down shields easily. Even if you get a power shield, Meta can still hurt you. So, theres almost no point in sheilding against meta.

meta has better air game, period. Meta has a better recovery, with many options. Snake has a really predictable recovery, which is asking to be gimped.

As with my other topic, about level 9 rob owning my *** trying to C4 recover. Meta can grab snake, throw so Snake is FORCED to C4, but, Meta can force-sticky (as I now call it) and use up-b to recover without getting killed.

Snake will probobly drop, unfortunatly, to me, he's just another "Character of the Week" like Pit and T.Link were, granted he'll still be high, but not THE BEST.

 

[BibulousDan]

Top:
Snake
Meta Knight
Marth
Game and Watch
King Dedede

High:
R.O.B.
Falco
Fox
Zelda
Olimar
Kirby
Toon Link
Peach

Mid-High:
Wolf
Wario
Pikachu
Lucas
Pit
Donkey Kong
Luigi

Mid:
Lucario
Diddy
Ike
Jigglypuff
ZSS
Ivysaur
Charizard
Bowser
Mario
Ness


Low:
Yoshi
Sheik
Squirte
Link
Samus
Ice Climbers

Bottom:
Sonic
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

Pretty accurate, though Diddy Ike and Bowser should be higher. they are pretty capable in good hands, i.e me and my friends.

 

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

Pretty accurate, though Diddy Ike and Bowser should be higher. they are pretty capable in good hands, i.e me and my friends.

10char

 

[Kaizo]

Not including sig (lol I'm done with that DEATH thing)

So anyway, Brawl is a defense game right? Power shield is the future! But unlike Snake, meta has 0 lag after his attacks, and can break down shields easily. Even if you get a power shield, Meta can still hurt you. So, theres almost no point in sheilding against meta.

meta has better air game, period. Meta has a better recovery, with many options. Snake has a really predictable recovery, which is asking to be gimped.

As with my other topic, about level 9 rob owning my *** trying to C4 recover. Meta can grab snake, throw so Snake is FORCED to C4, but, Meta can force-sticky (as I now call it) and use up-b to recover without getting killed.

Snake will probobly drop, unfortunatly, to me, he's just another "Character of the Week" like Pit and T.Link were, granted he'll still be high, but not THE BEST.

Nah, Snake is always going to be one of the best characters, until the top players learn to stop his camping pressure game and avoid his tilts. He's just way too ****ing strong, and has way too much going for him. He's by no means god, but he's going to be top tier for a long time.

EDIT: Bowser is far better than people say, in fact I'd stretch it really thin and say that he might be tourney worthy. Ike is definitely tourney worthy, although I don't know if he'll win, maybe just succeed. Diddy is tough to consider a threat, once you get by the bananas.

 

[RedfishX]

Follow the quote to see the list

Ice Climbers 4th to last? Peach THAT high? Fox THAT high? Wolf and Wario...above Pikachu? Even Kirby is too high (and if I were biased with him as my main, he'd never be too high. But fortunately, I can realize the truth.

This list needs a lot of fixing up.

 

[Grunt]

So let's get back to tiers...

I think metaknight is better than snake.

*crowd gasps*

if he did better in tournies, then yes.

 

[jiovanni007]

if he did better in tournies, then yes.

What are you talking about? Last time I checked Snake's tournament edge wasn't that large over Meta Knight. Factor that in with Snake being the go to guy to beat Meta and you have what I always talk about, skewed tournament results. I main Kirby, Meta counters Kirby quite well, if I see someone who's been beasting with Meta the whole time and I face them in the finals, no way in hell am I gonna start off with Kirby. I pick Snake and win, then Snake gets tournament results even though my Kirby did most of my work.

 

[Corner-Trap]

I thought he might have been joking, but I wanted to make sure, because chaingrabbing seems kind of stupid to ban (certain infinites might not, I'm not sure about the rules really)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2Uill9wgXQ4

Shut the **** up now. That's all the evidence you need as far as cape and skeet are concerned. This is what I mean by "Mario is a good character, you just have to use him properly". A player with good knowledge of the character completely changes the entire nature of the character when compared to someone who's just generally good. Jiggs' aerials are probably better, but it's much harder to use them since Jiggs is grossly incomplete as a character. But as I said, her weight makes it harder to chase people that are smart enough to airdodge out of WOPs.

I'm not saying Mario is going to rule tourneys everywhere or anything, I'm just saying you don't know what you're talking about.

How old are you? Like twelve or something? Seriously, why are you telling me to shut the **** up as if I brutally insulted you in some way. All I did was give valid points to why Mario sucks and your only retort is "combos" which is such a flimsy stance. That video was pretty awful, I've seen better stuff from Mario players IRL. Saying that a character is good in the right hands is such a terrible way to defend a characters viability since the same theory can be applied to all characters. You've already shown that you don't know what you're talking about through your responses, and it's apparent how ignorant you are of this game. I give good reasons for why Mario sucks and all you can do is show me some unimpressive combo vid, oh please

 

[Kaizo]

How old are you? Like twelve or something? Seriously, why are you telling me to shut the **** up as if I brutally insulted you in some way. All I did was give valid points to why Mario sucks and your only retort is "combos" which is such a flimsy stance. That video was pretty awful, I've seen better stuff from Mario players IRL. Saying that a character is good in the right hands is such a terrible way to defend a characters viability since the same theory can be applied to all characters. You've already shown that you don't know what you're talking about through your responses, and it's apparent how ignorant you are of this game. I give good reasons for why Mario sucks and all you can do is show me some unimpressive combo vid, oh please

Sorry for yelling at you, gross stupidity annoys me sometimes, ya know?

First of all, I didn't once claim that Mario could combo, not once. Get your facts straight.

Second of all, you're saying that cape and fludd are not good edgeguarding tools, and I showed you that they are not only great for edgeguarding, but also for his regular game.

A good player knows the timing and situations for "situational moves", and makes full use of them. Obviously Mario doesn't have the margin of error that Snake and MK have, nor does he have a great margin of error at all, which is why I doubt that he'll go too far in tourney play. The reason logic like "he's good in the hands of a good player" stands is because a good player knows how to use the character properly in the first place. In fact, the tier list is determined by the character's ability when used at the pinnacle of his meta game.....AKA HOW HE IS USED BY THE BEST PLAYERS. Characters like Pit were thought of as the best because everyone knew how to use them at the beginning, but as time went on, people found weaknesses in Pit and strengths in other characters, and so Pit went down. The ideas of tier placement are changing all the time because people are learning new techniques and understanding characters better. You can't judge a character just because you don't know how to use him properly.

Also, if that Mario is so bad (he might be for all I know, but he uses Mario better than I do), that just proves how usable Mario is as a character in the first place.

 

[Recognize]

Pretty accurate, though Diddy Ike and Bowser should be higher. they are pretty capable in good hands, i.e me and my friends.

You're an idiot. You think that diddy ike and bowser are the only things wrong with that list?

How about kirby, DDD, Peach, Squirtle, and Ice Climbers.

Plus Ike is fine there I GUESS, I think he should be evn lower.

 

[Kaizo]

You're an idiot. You think that diddy ike and bowser are the only things wrong with that list?

How about kirby, DDD, Peach, Squirtle, and Ice Climbers.

Plus Ike is fine there I GUESS, I think he should be evn lower.

lol, if he does what I does, he probably looks at the tier list for the characters that he knows about, and then brings up his problem with them. I'm always bugging people when they put Bowser in low or bottom.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Sorry for yelling at you, gross stupidity annoys me sometimes, ya know?

First of all, I didn't once claim that Mario could combo, not once. Get your facts straight.

Second of all, you're saying that cape and fludd are not good edgeguarding tools, and I showed you that they are not only great for edgeguarding, but also for his regular game.

A good player knows the timing and situations for "situational moves", and makes full use of them. Obviously Mario doesn't have the margin of error that Snake and MK have, nor does he have a great margin of error at all, which is why I doubt that he'll go too far in tourney play. The reason logic like "he's good in the hands of a good player" stands is because a good player knows how to use the character properly in the first place. In fact, the tier list is determined by the character's ability when used at the pinnacle of his meta game.....AKA HOW HE IS USED BY THE BEST PLAYERS. Characters like Pit were thought of as the best because everyone knew how to use them at the beginning, but as time went on, people found weaknesses in Pit and strengths in other characters, and so Pit went down. The ideas of tier placement are changing all the time because people are learning new techniques and understanding characters better. You can't judge a character just because you don't know how to use him properly.

Also, if that Mario is so bad (he might be for all I know, but he uses Mario better than I do), that just proves how usable Mario is as a character in the first place.

Gross stupidity? Well ain't that an intellectual way to carry on with a debate, seriously grow up a bit with this childishness. Also you did say the word combo, and you even posted a comobo vid. I never said fludd and cape were bad at edge guarding, just no where near as good as you're trying to make them out to be. Lets face it, Mario honestly sucks when compared to the large majority of the cast. Most of his match-ups have him at a disadvantage, come to think of it I don't think he even has an advantageous match-up. And that Mario wasn't bad just average, which means your Mario is below average. You need to pay a bit more attention to the other characters in the game.

 

[Sh1n0b1]

This looks exciting...*Pulls out popcorn*

 

[864today]

I am a little confused right now.
Can someone please tell me exactly why Pokemon Trainer is always so low. All three of them are fairly good.

 

[Blistering Speed]

You tell him Corner Trap! He has Cloud as his avatar, is no one going to mention this!? People lets move on from the logical debates and start personal attacks, thats what Kaizo's doing!

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I am a little confused right now.
Can someone please tell me exactly why Pokemon Trainer is always so low. All three of them are fairly good.

Squirtle is decent, but the other two are pretty subpar.

 

[DanGR]

Is there an agreement not to post tier lists anymore? Anyways, here's my updated version.

These are the more notable changes I made:
Zelda -1
Pikachu -1
Squirtle -3
Diddy +1

Here it is. Anyone notice any glaring messups? I hadn't much of a clue about Pit so I'm willing to move him anywhere as long as it's reasonable.

Top-
Snake
Snake
More Snake
MK

High-
G&W
Falco
ROB
Diddy Kong
TL
Marth
Pikachu
IC
Wolf

Mid-
Wario
Olimar
DDD
Lucario
Pit
Fox
Zelda
Kirby
Zamus
Squirtle

Below Average-
Big DK
Luigi
Ike
Bowser
Sheik
Lucas
Charizard

Low-
Ivysaur
Ness
Mario
Samus
Link
Sonic

Bottom-
Peach
Yoshi
Jiggs
Ganon
CF

 

[RedfishX]

This looks exciting...*Pulls out popcorn*

Agreed. I'll supply the Coca-Cola.

Now, to be somewhat on-topic:

We need to discuss Peach's position.

I say, top one in the bottom tier, above Yoshi, Jiggs, and the Terrible Two.

 

[DanGR]

Now, to be somewhat on-topic:

We need to discuss Peach's position.

I say, top one in the bottom tier, above Yoshi, Jiggs, and the Terrible Two.

I'm good so far.

 

[RedfishX]

I'm good so far.

I left to go to the restroom while typing that, so you got your latest tier list in before me,

Anyways, Pit is (in my opinion) way too low. And you left 45 different Snakes off the list.

 

[Kaizo]

Where's that tier list that had Meta Knight in Snake tier? I think that one was the most accurate to date =3

 

[SnatchForFree]

Is there an agreement not to post tier lists anymore? Anyways, here's my updated version.

These are the more notable changes I made:
Zelda -1
Pikachu -1
Squirtle -3
Diddy +1

Here it is. Anyone notice any glaring messups? I hadn't much of a clue about Pit so I'm willing to move him anywhere as long as it's reasonable.

Top-
Snake
Snake
More Snake
MK

High-
G&W
Falco
ROB
Diddy Kong
TL
Marth
Pikachu
IC
Wolf

Mid-
Wario
Olimar
DDD
Lucario
Pit
Fox
Zelda
Kirby
Zamus
Squirtle

Below Average-
Big DK
Luigi
Ike
Bowser
Sheik
Lucas
Charizard

Low-
Ivysaur
Ness
Mario
Samus
Link
Sonic

Bottom-
Peach
Yoshi
Jiggs
Ganon
CF

I would move marth above Diddy and TL.
Maybe move DDD right under Pika or ICs.

Pretty **** good list though.

 

[RedfishX]

Where's that tier list that had Meta Knight in Snake tier? I think that one was the most accurate to date =3

Do you mean as the number one spot? Your grammar is...a little off.

Like I said, there is almost no "perfect" tier list. Why do you think the Back Room's Melee one had so many revisions? (okay fine, I never actually said it on here. But I know we were all thinking it.)



Anyways, I'm going to add another revision to my tier list tomorrow...I'll see what I can do. But I am pretty sure Snake is the number one spot.

 

[Kaizo]

Do you mean as the number one spot? Your grammar is...a little off.

There was a tier list with a Snake tier, and Meta Knight was in it......I can't be more clear that that =/

Also, tier lists don't matter a lot, anyway. Good players will use who they use, regardless of what tiers say. So there's no real point, save being able to go "my characters higher on the tier list LOL", or for tier johns.

 

[DanGR]

Kaizo, why are you here in this thread? If you don't think tiers matter, go to the Brawl is less balanced thread and argue there.