• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Neodaft_boy

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
44
Location
Moncton, New Brunswick
For everyone who at least attempted to make a tier list that didn't involve any bias crap or recycle melee teir list bull into it. Thank you and I enjoyed viewing your take on the characters peformance. They're all opinion that can be debated, but still you gave a good insight on how their abilities are compared to others.:)

As for everyone else, DON'T BOTHER! You don't even try to look into a character and only go by what a majority of people would prefer. This is why I don't beileve in the tier list. It was made by someone, and it's mostly opinion form frequent tournement performances!

Look at me, I'll at least admit that I can't make one because I haven't used everyone, nor to their maximum skill yet. If I did make one, I'll have to choose from only characters I use because I KNOW how they work. And I HATE Jigglypuff... I hate her Poke'guts! But I won't deny that she can fight good when used right only because I hate her.



---Another Yoshi example.---

I'll ignore all the tier list that shoots Yoshi at the bottom for, word of mouth, only seeing his disadvantages, or no reason. You don't want to see this part, then move along. Not that many people who say Yoshi sucks actually read and/or considers these things anyway.

Ok, the two things are annoying when people jugde Yoshi. They say he sucks because he has no DJC and Jumping out of his shield. Through all the good yoshi players showing how this isn't a serious issue, this still plagues Yoshi. The DJC doesn't make Yoshi. That DJC is what cause him to fall quickly from Melee. Making his recovery risky, it would occur automatically with certain aerials causing him to shoot down unless he was at a certain height. Now his floatness allows him to nail aerials combo very well, and a lot of his attacks can launch immediately from his jumps. Rising sex kicks, forwardair(if u can hit it), and Uair hit hard, while his other aerials can start a punishing combo. The DJC is Dead and gone and Yoshi doesn't need it. try out his new aerial skills and get over it.

The "Jumping out of his shield" complaint. I'll admit, that's a fault for Yoshi, but not one that should make or break him even though he's a aerial character. Yoshi's egg like shield keeps his body enclosed at all times until it is self-shattered, grabbed, or overwhelmed, so he can't be shield stabbed by simple attacks. He gains a strength from his shield that no one else has. Has for actually jumping out his shield. This doesn't really affect badly for the reason that Yoshi can perform aerials immediately rising from the ground. If you don't get get hit, run and deliver a dash or rising aerials. If you are hit, swings yoshi's momentum in a loop in any direction then comeback at the person with rising aerials. Yes, rising aerials are very useful! XD

Now for simple cons and pros. Yoshi wasn't completely nerfed! The only move that was really nerfed was his downSmash. Boo..hoo.. All his other moves are either normal or buffed. Not all of his moves are meant to KO king anyway, so how can people who stay away from yoshi and think he's horrible tell what moves other than the dsmash were nerfed? I see a lot of irony in that! His aerial skills are of course better, *coughnodjccough*. Honestly, he's one of the few characters that can knock someone off the map, chase them in the air to hit them again and make sure they don't come back, and still arrive back on the stage safely(If the person's mindful of yoshi's recovery. XD) And for god sakes, don't milk Yoshi's special moves! They don't work that way! Also he's still a somewhat unorthodox character, but his better combo skills benefit him a little more.

His faults are simple.

Can't jump from his shield- yeah h can't do it. It would had done wonder for his already awesome aerial skills, but he does well enough without it show it's not really a big deal.

his floatiness- As useful as it is. The float can bite his eggmaker hard when it causes him to fly from certain attacks and he doesn't redirect himself immediately. So don't brag that you're Iron Rex when you explode off the screen a second after expected.

laggy/predictable moves - I HATE HIS GRAB! URRGH! It's so noticable with his head pulling back. And his specials become WAAY to predictable. Don't rely on them. stick with his a moves a little more and you might have better results. That's how I use him at least. His forward aerials lags too. yeah... Don't rely on it. Especially online. Yoshi + a laggy connection = HELL!!!!!

Simply put. Yoshi isn't THE BEST character, he's MY BEST! I've beaten a lot of people with him an got my share of beatings. I'm still learning him so I may be wrong in certain areas, but not by much.
---end of Yoshi example---

The game seems more balance, so simply put in my opinion. All characters can out perform others in certain areas, but no character can out perform some or everyone in everything. Yoshi was just and example, I use some others. And whether the user can use these skills determines how good they are. It's my opinion, fell free to agree, or disagree. Once again, sorry if I offend anybody, but it's my opinion.
Wow you said it Yosh. (Neat seeing you on the smash boards, I'm usually just a lurker seeking wisdom lol) I completely agree with this statement. Sadly, Yoshi is very underrated from what ever bad rep he had before. He's completely changed in ways of handing from Melee. And for the better!

Agreed with his A moves. And also agreed as to how every character seems a LOT more balanced, thus adding potential to each and every one. I can win with Bowser now XDD! But it's sad to say that there are always going to be tiers out there and those tiers are no doubt going to place Yoshi in low or bottom. Around mid or high-middle seems to be best for him speaking technically. IMO... |D

With TL as my main, I have to say I really wish Yoshi had better projectiles but it seems with a little practice... Yoshi's eggs seem to be rather useful. And WAY useful for recovery, it's really what improved Yoshi -- I'm not angry that he doesn't have a FULL recovery but at least something that can inch him to the edge. :D

Mweh, I'm not that great at speaking technical about characters -- seems all I do is phrase or point out the obvious. But Yoshi ISN'T nerfed imo. And I see you agree too and something we can all agree on is poor Yoshi is underrated which is why I'm making him on of my common choices of character.
 

PowerBomb

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 11, 2007
Messages
3,791
Location
California
Here's a random tier list I'll just throw out.

The characters are not in any particular order.

Top

Toon Link
Marth
Meta Knight

High/Middle

Everyone else.

Low/Bottom

No one.

I just put the characters for top tier based on others evaluation and personal experiances.
Seriously though, a tier list isn't suited to brawl that much, which is why every character is middle/top/high.
 

SiSiMeN

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 18, 2007
Messages
22
Location
North Carolina
Is this pretty accurrate so far?

Top Tier:

Marth
Diddy Kong
Toon Link
Wolf
Snake
R.O.B.

High Tier:

Zelda
Game & Watch
King Dedede
Ness
Olimar
Fox
Falco
Zamus
Pickachu
Ike
Pit
Meta Knight
Sonic

Middle Tier:
Samus
Pokemon Trainer
Lucario
Lucas
Bowser
Mario
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Sheik
Ice Climbers
Yoshi
Link
Kirby
Peach

Low:

Gannondorf
Wario
Captain Falcon
JigglyPuff

Can somebody comment on this list please?

I think its pretty badass actually. I mean, wario probably wouldnt be on low, and prolly not captain falcon, maybe gannon... But yea, middle and high are perfect but i disagree on toon link and metaknight might be higher. And FINALLY YOSHI WHERE HE BELONGS, he should be the top of the middle lol.


Oh and "
I just put the characters for top tier based on others evaluation and personal experiances.
Seriously though, a tier list isn't suited to brawl that much, which is why every character is middle/top/high."

screw toon link, but I TOTALLY AGREE with the whole middle/top/high thing. There are no low tier chars.
 

m0nkey1sme

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
10
My tier list is
Top:
Wolf
Marth
Toon Link

High:
Sheik
Zelda
Lucas
Fox
Falco
ZSS
ROB
Jiggs
DeDeDe

Low:
Yoshi
Link
Ness

Bottom:
Ganondorf

Middle tier is everyone else
 

Browny

Smash Hater
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
10,416
Location
Video Games
Can anyone explain why ness is always low and lucas high. Ive played the two quite a bit and besides Lucas' upsmash and pkthunder/2 hes got nothing on regular ness. PK freeze is useless, pure and simple. his pk fire has no combo potential unlike ness' which can lead into huge combos and rack up 20-30% in next to no time. and his aerials are incredibly basic, ness' has 3 KO potential aerial moves and his b-air electric kick is still as good as ever and easy to hit with.

seems to me that people play lucas, get one upsmash off and kill someone at 70%, call WTFHAX, high tier! compare that to ness' yoyo, lolfail low tier!
 

RetroBro

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
515
I'm going to attempt to do this in the least bias way possible... Priority Characters will get the top and high tiers right away, along with campers. I do not place these in order, I place these characters in the branch I believe they belong in. (In otherwards, one character on the bottom of the top tier list may be better than one in the middle, vice versa. It's too early to specifically make statements about who's better in which tier)

Remember, this is opinionated... argue with me if you please I'm sure I'm wrong :laugh:


Top Tier
Wolf- Wolf has a decent range attack that does not only disrupt the opponent, but also deals 5%-7% Damage. He has long range on most of his attacks and his recovery attacks are not so easy to edge Guard. He's earned the right to be in top tier imo.
King Dedede- One thing that puts Dedede over the edge is his Chain-grab. It's such a simple concept, and it's just sickening when it happens to you. King Dedede may be slow, but they've also given him camping capabilities. He's just too much of a force to be reckoned with sometimes. Powerful (But slow...) attacks, a disjoint, camping capabilities, and chain grabbing... what more could you want in a character :ohwell: .
Toon Link- The best thing about TL is his insane range abilities, three different range attacks, all have good power. You can basically build a wall with his arrows if you were skilled enough. To top the icing on the cake, he has a powerful disjoint. His sword may look small and petty, but the hitbox on it is huge.
Falco- Once again I believe this bad bird deserves a spot on the top tier list purely because of his camping abilities. He's a major pain in the *** with short hoping. Plus he has advantages to certain characters like Shiek, and Captain Falcon, what with that infinite laser combo (Not that this is easy to pull off by any means...:ohwell: ) Although Falco may be put down a notch to the high tier list because of his ground attacks. They got nerfed just a bit in this game imo.
Marth- Marth is a fast, powerful (Tip of the ****, although harder to pull off), disjointed character. His sword overrides nearly all non-disjoint attacks. The range with his attacks is insane. He stays where he was last game, in the top/high tier list for me. He's a very difficult character to deal with if you're a character with neither a disjoint or a range attack.
Metaknight- Ho boy... Meta knight, imo, the most frustrating opponent to face. Such a character is only suited for fanatical berserkers. You barely have to try to hit someone and you do. The fact is, he has a disjoint, and if it was otherwise, he'd be lower in the tiers. It's just not easy to compete with a freaky swordsman that can send out attacks like a teenage boy does masturbating.
Pit- Another Character that can be deemed a "DPS" freak character. It doesn't take much for Pit to rack up damage on you. Most of his attacks can kill you past 100% which is bad, you'll get there fast if you're not careful. Not only does he have a sword (Disjoint), but he has ranged attacks, and they're useful too. You're able to change the direction of them from the start or half way through. Pit deserves a spot in the top or high tier list.

High Tier
Fox-Now most of you might knock me on the back of the head for putting Fox on the high tier list instead of top, but really, he's not as threatening as he was in Melee. His attacks have been dumbed down, they have some lag on them now, and shield shining is gone. His range is still there, annoying as ever, nonetheless, a terrible opponent to have to face.
Diddy Kong- Diddy Kong has some of the best Non-Disjoint game in Brawl. His aerials are pretty insane, along with his range attacks (**** you peeled bananas, why must I slip on you so much!) You can pretty much build a little fortress with two peeled bananas, then fire some peanuts at your **** opponent. Well... not really, but it's a nice gesture :laugh: you would never have the time to do that in a competitive match.
Ike- Ike, the huge *** 2 handed sword guy that uses one hand to use a 2 handed sword :laugh: . But seriously, he's one of the easiest characters to pick up. He does massive damage in one swing, and he's got the most powerful (Ganon's elbow may compete) over smash in the game. His aerial game is decent, and of course, the disjoint puts him over the top against non disjoints.
Zelda- Wow, did she improve from melee or what!? Her over B attack is just insane now, it has the hit box of a ****ing monster! Plus her aerial game is just over the top, powerful, and a hit box wonder. Her death kicks scare me sometimes :urg: . Although maybe I'm just overly excited about how she improved so much, maybe she's middle?
Rob- Despite me hating this guy, he's got potential to be a high tier character. He's got range, he's got decent hit boxes, and aerials. What more could you ask for (a disjoint I know :laugh: ) He's got some potential with combo'ing off of some of his attacks, particularly his uptilt (I think I'm right about the up tilt, or is it his up aerial?)
Gay and Watch erm... I mean Game and Watch- Despite me also hating this guy, he's got such freaking priority it pisses me off. All his bull**** with, oh, my key overrides your powerful rock hard head bowser, is just terrible. He's a character with a craptastic range attack, with priority. He's in high/top tier.
Ice Climbers-The IC's excel in most areas of the game including camping, approaching, edge guarding, etc. Their attacks have lots of range, speed, priority, damage, and knockback. They still get to keep what made them so good in Melee like chaingrabs, and desynching, which is only made better by the slower pace of the game. Plus they recieved serveral buffs in areas that held them back in Melee such as recovery(both IC's can grab the ledge at once, you can get much more height off of SideB, and UpB now sweetspots ledges) and Nana's AI(she'll actually use UpB and SideB on her own to recovery). The only exploitable weakness the IC's have is that Popo is much less effective without Nana, but gimping Nana is much harder in the game because everyone lives at higher percents, plus as I said before their recovery and Nana's AI is better. Most importantly of all their match-ups are great. Most of them are either fair or good, with only like one or two bad ones that are a 4/6 at most.
Snake- Very unsure about this guy right now, he's got some incredible potential in my eyes though. Range attacks galore is all I can say. Ground tilts/smashes seem ok, and he's got some insane aerials. He's in the high/top tier list.
ZZS- Whatta *****! Her paralysis attacks are terrible if you get caught in them, and she has more than one. Not only that, she's a freaking monster when it comes to speed, that and Aerials...
Lucas- Ugh, I hate to say this, but the pansy has quite a bit of potential. His PK thunder, frost, and fire all pay quite a toll on the defensive types, and his aerials **** the offensive types. The ****er has over all a good arsenal of regular tilts and smashes.

Middle Tier

Pokemon Trainer- Pokemon Trainer has the most potential next to Olimar. Three different pokemon ready to bend at the will of the trainer. I place him near high tier because he can counter characters. Charizard, Squirtle, and Ivysaur all have their pro's and con's. Squirtle having insane aerials, Charizard having great ground work, and Ivysaur having some range. They compliment each other very well.
Pikachu- Ah, good ol' Pikachu, you never do change much do you? I may underestimate you though. Your electrical disjoints do have a bit more priority than the pitiful non-disjointed characters, and you have one of the most annoying range attacks in the game. Perhaps you deserve high tier?
Wario- As a Wario player myself, I can say he is definitely one of the best non-disjoint characters in his game (besides his bike). He's got some above average aerials, and some below average smashes. Above all he has one of the top recoveries in the game (allowing some very good edge guarding strategies)
Mario- Again... Mario comes in as an average character, always with his average range fireball attacks, and his average aerials, and his average tilts/smashes. Average average average.
Ness- Ness has improved since last game, he's more maneuverable than in melee, and he still has the aerials that he had in melee. Not to mention his ****in' baseball bat. He's still retained his range attacks, which pits him almost between high and middle.
Lucario - What a complicated character, at one end of the scale he's complete crap from the start, and at the other end of the scale he's a powerhouse with a risk. He has a powerful range attack that doesnt... have that much range, and some decent aerials. The more he get's hurt the stronger he becomes. Some may say he's on the lower end of the spectrum while others say he's at the higher end. I'm not that knowledgeable of this character.
Luigi- Luigi has stayed pretty much the same this round, despite his feeling of inferiority :ohwell: His Karate chop has always been my favorite aerial, and he has some other decent ones. Don't forget his crappy range attack that disappears almost instantly! His ground game isn't as good as it used to be imo, everything seems a tid bit weaker with him. I could be wrong though.
Olimar- Take it from me, who's fighting someone who's maining and training as olimar 24/7. He's not as great as some would like to think. He becomes very vulnerable when airbourne. That means when he's facing disjointed aerial freaks, he gets ****ed. He's recovery is pitiful. All you have to do is hop on the edge, and press down and jump repeatedly till he gets near the edge and he plunges to his death by fault of his stupid UP-B recovery. Now despite that, he has insane camping capabilities, and insane range with his grab (**** YOU BLUE PIKMIN, WHY HAVE YOU BETRAYED ME!). He's a damage racker while a powerhouse at the same time, the only problem is organizing your pikmin. They're random so you could end up with 4 blue pikmin and 2 red, then what do you do? Spend your time throwing them off the edge while your opponent ***** you in the butt? I think not, maybe in time Olimar will move up or down the chain, but right now I think it's best to assume he belongs in the middle. His bad qualities equal out with his good.
Sheik- Oh Sheik, poor poor Sheik, you've gone down the hole haven't you? But not to worry, you're just an average player now! Now, people won't despise you as much! I've got nothing to say other than her prowess in aerials has gone to **** alone with her ground game.
Peach- Now maybe Peach does belong to the high tier list, maybe she doesn't. But I know that when I fought the only peach player I knew, it wasn't overwhelming like she used to be. Her game seems to be the same, but really once you touch her, it's like everything changed slightly. None of her moves connect like they did before and they're slightly weaker (% wise and power wise).
Bowser- Ho-bo a debated character. Slow, but powerful, it's too hard to hit with him period. If it was any easier I'd place him higher. Counter characters such as Ike, and Marth can see his pitifully slow attacks coming a mile away... One thing that puts him over the edge is his suicidal kill. It can really win a match if used correctly. Opponent A has 0% with 2 stock, while you have 153% with 3 stock, use the suicide technique, and you're 1 full stock ahead of him now :ohwell:
Kirby- His game has improved slightly with the dash attack and the double hammer swing. It seems like his entire arsenal of aerials has improved slightly. Not much to say on this little guy.
Samus- I'm boldly disappointed in this character now, she's heavy as hell and her recovery sucks a ****. Her range attacks are weaker, and all her regular ground moves are worse! Wtf were they thinking when they made this character. If I didn't let my biasm kick in, I'd put her in low tier.
Link- He got a punch in the face with his gale boomerang this round... It's so pitiful compared to his past boomerangs, hell, TL got a better boomerang than him :ohwell: It's one thing that really helped him melee, and it's gone. His UP B is no longer an edgeguarding tech and all his attacks are fairly weak. For a disjoint character, he is the worst. All he has working for him is his bombs and arrows...
Yoshi- Yoshi is on the verge of low tier here... Not sure about him too much, they nerfed his down aerial too much, and they nerfed his over B in the air. He drops straight down now, whats the deal with that. He's still got potential with some of his smashes, and he's got some potential with his egg tosses. Perhaps he's fighting for a spot on middle tier.

Low tier

Donkey Kong- He's got the long arms, just not the speed. He's hard to use, but he may deserve a spot on middle tier just yet. His Uair is decent, along with his back aerial. He's quite powerful too... I just don't thing many will go far with this guy. Although they helped him out with his Over B this smash.
Jigglypuff- Her fading tactics are now gone, and she's nothing more than a football to most characters ready to punt her off the stage. Her aerials are still decent, she just can't use her fading to bait the opponent into attacking anymore. That was her strong point. Her sleep attack is now rendered useless. It's harder to hit with it than ever.
Captain Falcon- Falcon... oh falcon your knee is gone! What happened to it, it's incredibly hard to hit with it now! Despite your falcon kick being slightly better, everything else has changed! Your speed now being dominated by sonic (who is also fail) is rendered useless because your attacks are so much worse now! Falcon punch will always remain in my heart though...
Sonic- Do I even need to get into the details of why Sonic is fail... Although I will try to main him at one point being a sonic fanboy.
Ganondorf- Christalmighty, you've gone down the ****ter this game. You used to be slighty agile with wavelanding, and your hit boxes are so much smaller! Your aerial games have gone to ****. I can barely land any hits on my opponents with my Over Aerials, my Dairs, or my Bairs. Your warlock punch is far to easy to see (Despite it kicking *** when it does connect) and your warlock kick get's overrided by a simple disjoint... I'm sorry Ganon, but I have to give you up! I've tried playing with you, but you're just not the same as Melee.
 

Rapid_Assassin

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 8, 2005
Messages
4,163
Location
RI
Olimar is a weird character. All the Olimar players put him in mid or upper mid tier. All the people who suck against him put him in the very top tier (OMG WTF HAX!!!!). And people who do nothing but play 1p mode or against people that totally suck put him in bottom.

And wtf is with all the tier lists that go something like this:

Top: Characters my friends and I main
Middle: All the new characters
Bottom: Bowser, and all the Melee high/top tiers
 

Corner-Trap

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 17, 2007
Messages
535
Location
Fayetteville, NC
Top:

Falco
Pit
Toon Link
Snake
Ice Climbers
Metaknight
Marth

High:

Zelda
Wolf
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Diddy Kong
Zero Suit Samus
Game & Watch
Pikman & Olimar
Fox
Lucas

Mid:

Luigi
Pikachu
Kirby
Jigglypuff
Sheik
Peach
Squirtle
Wario
Ike
Charizard
Lucario
Ness

Low:

Donky Kong
Samus
Link
Bowser
Ivysaur

Bottom:

Yoshi
Mario
Captain Falcon
Sonic
Ganondorf

EDIT:

Ice Climbers - These guys have dropped as well, they no longer have wave dashing to help them or any cheap tactics to rack up damage. Their hammers seem to have gotten smaller as well... Of course being disjoint characters this crushes their gameplay. Their petty range attacks are no longer a threat seeing as it does minimum damage at a distance. They're dead middle imo.
You honestly don't know anything about the IC's do you? How bout actually reading the IC board? Wave dashing may be gone but the IC's still have an above average approach when compared to most characters. The fact you used the word cheap also makes me shun your post but I'll over look that for now. The IC's still have various CG's, and as of now have four different infinites. They're overall damage has actually increased, and I don't even know what makes you think their hammers have gotten smaller. You made so many misinformed statements in your post that it would take me to long to point them all out, so I decided point out the mistakes you made on my main.
 

RetroBro

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
515
Top:


You honestly don't know anything about the IC's do you? How bout actually reading the IC board? Wave dashing may be gone but the IC's still have an above average approach when compared to most characters. The fact you used the word cheap also makes me shun your post but I'll over look that for now. The IC's still have various CG's, and as of now have four different infinites. They're overall damage has actually increased, and I don't even know what makes you think their hammers have gotten smaller. You made so many misinformed statements in your post that it would take me to long to point them all out, so I decided point out the mistakes you made on my main.
My apologies, I thought I stated that "My" Tier list was by no means correct... You shouldn't take insult to something like that. Yes, I'm ignorant of them, but when I played as them they just didn't feel as great as in melee *Shrugs*. Point out all my misinformed statements please. Because I would like to know.

All of that was based on what I've seen. Nothing else. AGAIN It's by no means correct.
 

MorpheusVGX

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
498
Location
Buenos Aires, Capital Federal
I also think is too soon to discuss a tier list. This game is VERY balanced. I've heard people saying Pit was a shame. Others say PIt is a God. The same with Olimar. People say Marth is great, and I can kick his *** with Kirby against a more experienced player than me. There are many wrong perceptions based on poor development of character's advantages. Example: you notice Sheik has less knockback and power than in melee, then you say she is mid tier. But you have not exploited her speed in a slower paced game like Brawl. His advantage grabbing and avoiding item based attacks (including final smashes). Characters your are now seeing as top tiers are those with more development (because of a larger fan database). I tried Zamus, and thought she was weak. Then I saw a tournament were his D-smash and speed was being exploited greatly. It made me happy. I hate when people give up on a character they like because of tiers. You should take a character you like, and try to own any other!! F...cK tiers! xD I really hope any character can be great. I still respect your impressions on tiers. And I will tell mine:

Characters I actually perceive as gifted:

- Pit, Snake, Zelda, Lucas, Rob, Metaknight.

Characters I actually perceive as weak:

- Bowser, Ganondorf, Olimar, Jiggly, Fox.
 

RetroBro

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
515
Top:
The fact you used the word cheap also makes me shun your post but I'll over look that for now.
You didn't thing wobbling was cheap? Wtf is wrong with you. Anyways I find it funny that you main Iceclimbers so you put them in high tier.

The entire time I was just stating reasons why I put them where they were. It's better than just saying OI! ICE CLIMBERS ARE GOOD! HIGH TIER FOR THEM! Sure I've seen some of their stuff, they can meteor smash out of grabs, or the uses of Nana can be extroadinairy... but seriously get over your arrogant wall. I garuntee anything read that you disagree with you flame the person and tell them they suck. How about just being normal and give a civil explanation why the IC should be higher up. The tier I put up there really isn't far off what Ive been seeing, and it isn't THAT much different than yours.

Tiers without any explanation to them suck, end of story.
 

bruiser

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
4
Again the balance is due to the game being new. You sound like an idiot when you say the game is more balanced than Melee, no one has any idea if that is true or not.
 

Kinlap

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 4, 2004
Messages
169
Location
NY
Lol sonic below donkey kong? This tier list is stupid.
Instead of saying it's stupid, give reasons why Sonic is not worst than DK. The last time I went to a tournament, a Sonic ditto took longer than most of the matches there with campers. (7 minutes for 3 stocks...) Also, from other matches I see and had matches with against Sonic, he lacks killing AND enough high priority moves to really help him. DK on the other hand, has range, KO moves, and decent priority. Only thing, Sonic has over him is ground speed (DK is quite mobile in the air) and recovery (Sonic has much better and safer recovery than DK).
 

SAID!

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
16
Location
New Hampshire
i'd say wait a couple months before talking about tiers because half the people debating probably haven't played all the characters yet or at least enough to know they are decent characters.
 

RetroBro

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
515
Lol sonic below donkey kong? This tier list is stupid.

I do not place these in order, I place these characters in the branch I believe they belong in.
I SPECIFICALLY STATED that I was not placing these in order. Christ people, read the ****ing paragraph before the tier. You couldn't ask anyone to place them in order correctly because there'll always be someone else who says, that tier list is stupid. JUST like you said.

Idiot. Anyone who thinks they're exactly right with tier lists should be shot in the face.
 

Corner-Trap

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 17, 2007
Messages
535
Location
Fayetteville, NC
My apologies, I thought I stated that "My" Tier list was by no means correct... You shouldn't take insult to something like that. Yes, I'm ignorant of them, but when I played as them they just didn't feel as great as in melee *Shrugs*. Point out all my misinformed statements please. Because I would like to know.

All of that was based on what I've seen. Nothing else. AGAIN It's by no means correct.
I didn't mean to come off harsh in that statement, it's just that I'm getting tired of people posting tier lists but don't bother to take the time to learn anything about the characters.

You didn't thing wobbling was cheap? Wtf is wrong with you. Anyways I find it funny that you main Iceclimbers so you put them in high tier.

The entire time I was just stating reasons why I put them where they were. It's better than just saying OI! ICE CLIMBERS ARE GOOD! HIGH TIER FOR THEM! Sure I've seen some of their stuff, they can meteor smash out of grabs, or the uses of Nana can be extroadinairy... but seriously get over your arrogant wall. I garuntee anything read that you disagree with you flame the person and tell them they suck. How about just being normal and give a civil explanation why the IC should be higher up. The tier I put up there really isn't far off what Ive been seeing, and it isn't THAT much different than yours.

Tiers without any explanation to them suck, end of story.
You don't even want me to explain how bad using the word cheap is.

I've explained individually throughout this thread why I think certain characters are good, bad, or average. And I didn't put the IC's in top tier just because I main them. The IC's excel in most areas of the game including camping, approaching, edge guarding, etc. Their attacks have lots of range, speed, priority, damage, and knockback. They still get to keep what made them so good in Melee like chaingrabs, and desynching, which is only made better by the slower pace of the game. Plus they recieved serveral buffs in areas that held them back in Melee such as recovery(both IC's can grab the ledge at once, you can get much more height off of SideB, and UpB now sweetspots ledges) and Nana's AI(she'll actually use UpB and SideB on her own to recovery). The only exploitable weakness the IC's have is that Popo is much less effective without Nana, but gimping Nana is much harder in the game because everyone lives at higher percents, plus as I said before their recovery and Nana's AI is better. Most importantly of all their match-ups are great. Most of them are either fair or good, with only like one or two bad ones that are a 4/6 at most.

So is that a good enough explanation for you?

EDIT:

Although I will give you props for actually explaining all of your tier list placings.
 

RetroBro

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
515
You don't even want me to explain how bad using the word cheap is.

I've explained individually throughout this thread why I think certain characters are good, bad, or average. And I didn't put the IC's in top tier just because I main them. The IC's excel in most areas of the game including camping, approaching, edge guarding, etc. Their attacks have lots of range, speed, priority, damage, and knockback. They still get to keep what made them so good in Melee like chaingrabs, and desynching, which is only made better by the slower pace of the game. Plus they recieved serveral buffs in areas that held them back in Melee such as recovery(both IC's can grab the ledge at once, you can get much more height off of SideB, and UpB now sweetspots ledges) and Nana's AI(she'll actually use UpB and SideB on her own to recovery). The only exploitable weakness the IC's have is that Popo is much less effective without Nana, but gimping Nana is much harder in the game because everyone lives at higher percents, plus as I said before their recovery and Nana's AI is better. Most importantly of all their match-ups are great. Most of them are either fair or good, with only like one or two bad ones that are a 4/6 at most.

So is that a good enough explanation for you?

EDIT:

Although I will give you props for actually explaining all of your tier list placings.
Yes, thank you very much. Now I feel like I know the ICs better. Out of all the characters I really have played them the least next to G&W/ROB. Although I haven't run into anyone who's maining them. Which is why I placed the mid-tier. I really had no idea of their potential. I just knew they were a pain in the *** in Melee to fight whenever someone had ATs mastered.

I'll bump them up to high tier.

And I hope it's ok if I use your explanation.

I'm going to attempt to do this in the least bias way possible... Priority Characters will get the top and high tiers right away, along with campers. I do not place these in order, I place these characters in the branch I believe they belong in. (In otherwards, one character on the bottom of the top tier list may be better than one in the middle, vice versa. It's too early to specifically make statements about who's better in which tier)

Remember, this is opinionated... argue with me if you please I'm sure I'm wrong :laugh:


UPDATE: Moved Iceclimbers from middle tier to high tier.

Top Tier
Wolf- Wolf has a decent range attack that does not only disrupt the opponent, but also deals 5%-7% Damage. He has long range on most of his attacks and his recovery attacks are not so easy to edge Guard. He's earned the right to be in top tier imo.
King Dedede- One thing that puts Dedede over the edge is his Chain-grab. It's such a simple concept, and it's just sickening when it happens to you. King Dedede may be slow, but they've also given him camping capabilities. He's just too much of a force to be reckoned with sometimes. Powerful (But slow...) attacks, a disjoint, camping capabilities, and chain grabbing... what more could you want in a character :ohwell: .
Toon Link- The best thing about TL is his insane range abilities, three different range attacks, all have good power. You can basically build a wall with his arrows if you were skilled enough. To top the icing on the cake, he has a powerful disjoint. His sword may look small and petty, but the hitbox on it is huge.
Falco- Once again I believe this bad bird deserves a spot on the top tier list purely because of his camping abilities. He's a major pain in the *** with short hoping. Plus he has advantages to certain characters like Shiek, and Captain Falcon, what with that infinite laser combo (Not that this is easy to pull off by any means...:ohwell: ) Although Falco may be put down a notch to the high tier list because of his ground attacks. They got nerfed just a bit in this game imo.
Marth- Marth is a fast, powerful (Tip of the ****, although harder to pull off), disjointed character. His sword overrides nearly all non-disjoint attacks. The range with his attacks is insane. He stays where he was last game, in the top/high tier list for me. He's a very difficult character to deal with if you're a character with neither a disjoint or a range attack.
Metaknight- Ho boy... Meta knight, imo, the most frustrating opponent to face. Such a character is only suited for fanatical berserkers. You barely have to try to hit someone and you do. The fact is, he has a disjoint, and if it was otherwise, he'd be lower in the tiers. It's just not easy to compete with a freaky swordsman that can send out attacks like a teenage boy does masturbating.
Pit- Another Character that can be deemed a "DPS" freak character. It doesn't take much for Pit to rack up damage on you. Most of his attacks can kill you past 100% which is bad, you'll get there fast if you're not careful. Not only does he have a sword (Disjoint), but he has ranged attacks, and they're useful too. You're able to change the direction of them from the start or half way through. Pit deserves a spot in the top or high tier list.

High Tier
Fox-Now most of you might knock me on the back of the head for putting Fox on the high tier list instead of top, but really, he's not as threatening as he was in Melee. His attacks have been dumbed down, they have some lag on them now, and shield shining is gone. His range is still there, annoying as ever, nonetheless, a terrible opponent to have to face.
Diddy Kong- Diddy Kong has some of the best Non-Disjoint game in Brawl. His aerials are pretty insane, along with his range attacks (**** you peeled bananas, why must I slip on you so much!) You can pretty much build a little fortress with two peeled bananas, then fire some peanuts at your **** opponent. Well... not really, but it's a nice gesture :laugh: you would never have the time to do that in a competitive match.
Ike- Ike, the huge *** 2 handed sword guy that uses one hand to use a 2 handed sword :laugh: . But seriously, he's one of the easiest characters to pick up. He does massive damage in one swing, and he's got the most powerful (Ganon's elbow may compete) over smash in the game. His aerial game is decent, and of course, the disjoint puts him over the top against non disjoints.
Zelda- Wow, did she improve from melee or what!? Her over B attack is just insane now, it has the hit box of a ****ing monster! Plus her aerial game is just over the top, powerful, and a hit box wonder. Her death kicks scare me sometimes :urg: . Although maybe I'm just overly excited about how she improved so much, maybe she's middle?
Rob- Despite me hating this guy, he's got potential to be a high tier character. He's got range, he's got decent hit boxes, and aerials. What more could you ask for (a disjoint I know :laugh: ) He's got some potential with combo'ing off of some of his attacks, particularly his uptilt (I think I'm right about the up tilt, or is it his up aerial?)
Gay and Watch erm... I mean Game and Watch- Despite me also hating this guy, he's got such freaking priority it pisses me off. All his bull**** with, oh, my key overrides your powerful rock hard head bowser, is just terrible. He's a character with a craptastic range attack, with priority. He's in high/top tier.
Ice Climbers-"The IC's excel in most areas of the game including camping, approaching, edge guarding, etc. Their attacks have lots of range, speed, priority, damage, and knockback. They still get to keep what made them so good in Melee like chaingrabs, and desynching, which is only made better by the slower pace of the game. Plus they recieved serveral buffs in areas that held them back in Melee such as recovery(both IC's can grab the ledge at once, you can get much more height off of SideB, and UpB now sweetspots ledges) and Nana's AI(she'll actually use UpB and SideB on her own to recovery). The only exploitable weakness the IC's have is that Popo is much less effective without Nana, but gimping Nana is much harder in the game because everyone lives at higher percents, plus as I said before their recovery and Nana's AI is better. Most importantly of all their match-ups are great. Most of them are either fair or good, with only like one or two bad ones that are a 4/6 at most." Quote from: Corner-Trap
Snake- Very unsure about this guy right now, he's got some incredible potential in my eyes though. Range attacks galore is all I can say. Ground tilts/smashes seem ok, and he's got some insane aerials. He's in the high/top tier list.
ZZS- Whatta *****! Her paralysis attacks are terrible if you get caught in them, and she has more than one. Not only that, she's a freaking monster when it comes to speed, that and Aerials...
Lucas- Ugh, I hate to say this, but the pansy has quite a bit of potential. His PK thunder, frost, and fire all pay quite a toll on the defensive types, and his aerials **** the offensive types. The ****er has over all a good arsenal of regular tilts and smashes.

Middle Tier

Pokemon Trainer- Pokemon Trainer has the most potential next to Olimar. Three different pokemon ready to bend at the will of the trainer. I place him near high tier because he can counter characters. Charizard, Squirtle, and Ivysaur all have their pro's and con's. Squirtle having insane aerials, Charizard having great ground work, and Ivysaur having some range. They compliment each other very well.
Pikachu- Ah, good ol' Pikachu, you never do change much do you? I may underestimate you though. Your electrical disjoints do have a bit more priority than the pitiful non-disjointed characters, and you have one of the most annoying range attacks in the game. Perhaps you deserve high tier?
Wario- As a Wario player myself, I can say he is definitely one of the best non-disjoint characters in his game (besides his bike). He's got some above average aerials, and some below average smashes. Above all he has one of the top recoveries in the game (allowing some very good edge guarding strategies)
Mario- Again... Mario comes in as an average character, always with his average range fireball attacks, and his average aerials, and his average tilts/smashes. Average average average.
Ness- Ness has improved since last game, he's more maneuverable than in melee, and he still has the aerials that he had in melee. Not to mention his ****in' baseball bat. He's still retained his range attacks, which pits him almost between high and middle.
Lucario - What a complicated character, at one end of the scale he's complete crap from the start, and at the other end of the scale he's a powerhouse with a risk. He has a powerful range attack that doesnt... have that much range, and some decent aerials. The more he get's hurt the stronger he becomes. Some may say he's on the lower end of the spectrum while others say he's at the higher end. I'm not that knowledgeable of this character.
Luigi- Luigi has stayed pretty much the same this round, despite his feeling of inferiority :ohwell: His Karate chop has always been my favorite aerial, and he has some other decent ones. Don't forget his crappy range attack that disappears almost instantly! His ground game isn't as good as it used to be imo, everything seems a tid bit weaker with him. I could be wrong though.
Olimar- Take it from me, who's fighting someone who's maining and training as olimar 24/7. He's not as great as some would like to think. He becomes very vulnerable when airbourne. That means when he's facing disjointed aerial freaks, he gets ****ed. He's recovery is pitiful. All you have to do is hop on the edge, and press down and jump repeatedly till he gets near the edge and he plunges to his death by fault of his stupid UP-B recovery. Now despite that, he has insane camping capabilities, and insane range with his grab (**** YOU BLUE PIKMIN, WHY HAVE YOU BETRAYED ME!). He's a damage racker while a powerhouse at the same time, the only problem is organizing your pikmin. They're random so you could end up with 4 blue pikmin and 2 red, then what do you do? Spend your time throwing them off the edge while your opponent ***** you in the butt? I think not, maybe in time Olimar will move up or down the chain, but right now I think it's best to assume he belongs in the middle. His bad qualities equal out with his good.
Sheik- Oh Sheik, poor poor Sheik, you've gone down the hole haven't you? But not to worry, you're just an average player now! Now, people won't despise you as much! I've got nothing to say other than her prowess in aerials has gone to **** alone with her ground game.
Peach- Now maybe Peach does belong to the high tier list, maybe she doesn't. But I know that when I fought the only peach player I knew, it wasn't overwhelming like she used to be. Her game seems to be the same, but really once you touch her, it's like everything changed slightly. None of her moves connect like they did before and they're slightly weaker (% wise and power wise).
Bowser- Ho-bo a debated character. Slow, but powerful, it's too hard to hit with him period. If it was any easier I'd place him higher. Counter characters such as Ike, and Marth can see his pitifully slow attacks coming a mile away... One thing that puts him over the edge is his suicidal kill. It can really win a match if used correctly. Opponent A has 0% with 2 stock, while you have 153% with 3 stock, use the suicide technique, and you're 1 full stock ahead of him now :ohwell:
Kirby- His game has improved slightly with the dash attack and the double hammer swing. It seems like his entire arsenal of aerials has improved slightly. Not much to say on this little guy.
Samus- I'm boldly disappointed in this character now, she's heavy as hell and her recovery sucks a ****. Her range attacks are weaker, and all her regular ground moves are worse! Wtf were they thinking when they made this character. If I didn't let my biasm kick in, I'd put her in low tier.
Link- He got a punch in the face with his gale boomerang this round... It's so pitiful compared to his past boomerangs, hell, TL got a better boomerang than him :ohwell: It's one thing that really helped him melee, and it's gone. His UP B is no longer an edgeguarding tech and all his attacks are fairly weak. For a disjoint character, he is the worst. All he has working for him is his bombs and arrows...
Yoshi- Yoshi is on the verge of low tier here... Not sure about him too much, they nerfed his down aerial too much, and they nerfed his over B in the air. He drops straight down now, whats the deal with that. He's still got potential with some of his smashes, and he's got some potential with his egg tosses. Perhaps he's fighting for a spot on middle tier.

Low tier

Donkey Kong- He's got the long arms, just not the speed. He's hard to use, but he may deserve a spot on middle tier just yet. His Uair is decent, along with his back aerial. He's quite powerful too... I just don't thing many will go far with this guy. Although they helped him out with his Over B this smash.
Jigglypuff- Her fading tactics are now gone, and she's nothing more than a football to most characters ready to punt her off the stage. Her aerials are still decent, she just can't use her fading to bait the opponent into attacking anymore. That was her strong point. Her sleep attack is now rendered useless. It's harder to hit with it than ever.
Captain Falcon- Falcon... oh falcon your knee is gone! What happened to it, it's incredibly hard to hit with it now! Despite your falcon kick being slightly better, everything else has changed! Your speed now being dominated by sonic (who is also fail) is rendered useless because your attacks are so much worse now! Falcon punch will always remain in my heart though...
Sonic- Sonic's lack of priority and lack of fatal attacks is what kills him in this game. Sure, he's fast, he's unpredictable, but there are simply not enough killer moves with this guy. His Uair, and Bair are his only fatal moves above 130%. Sonic's gotta have to get some awesome glitch to move up to middle or high tier...
Ganondorf- Christalmighty, you've gone down the ****ter this game. You used to be slighty agile with wavelanding, and your hit boxes are so much smaller! Your aerial games have gone to ****. I can barely land any hits on my opponents with my Over Aerials, my Dairs, or my Bairs. Your warlock punch is far to easy to see (Despite it kicking *** when it does connect) and your warlock kick get's overrided by a simple disjoint... I'm sorry Ganon, but I have to give you up! I've tried playing with you, but you're just not the same as Melee.
 

Sonic XD

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 23, 2008
Messages
516
I SPECIFICALLY STATED that I was not placing these in order. Christ people, read the ****ing paragraph before the tier. You couldn't ask anyone to place them in order correctly because there'll always be someone else who says, that tier list is stupid. JUST like you said.

Idiot. Anyone who thinks they're exactly right with tier lists should be shot in the face.
Oh, so you're calling me stupid? Why don't you use rob against my sonic. Lets see who wins scrub. And before you say that sonic is fail, you should see some of the expert vids. Maybe you might want to change your opinion after that. Sonic can also keep opponents on their toes. That's the key to using Sonic. Revise your list in that aspect. Make sure you tell WHY sonic is fail in your tier list, otherwise sonic belongs in mid tier. The lowest tier for sonic is low tier, but not second to bottom tier. There are a lot of good sonic users.
 

PIMPSLAP

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 13, 2007
Messages
1,189
Location
Snakes BAIR
*throws rock at corner trap yeah take that...*
lol j/k these is why thise thread should be closed it's never gona be like a agreement between any of us because every one of us have are playing style we all have are mindgames and whatnot i mean amatures can do thise because the game is new to them.MY POINT

Is that everybody play diff so a tier list should not be brought up by us because we will favor someone over others :)
So that means only the people who win tournys(because of there styles and understanding of the game) would make a natural tier list but i mean thise post will disapear because of all the people that favor charecters will keep posting so aslong as some people see it i guess that my job is done.
 

RetroBro

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
515
Oh, so you're calling me stupid? Why don't you use rob against my sonic. Lets see who wins scrub. And before you say that sonic is fail, you should see some of the expert vids. Maybe you might want to change your opinion after that. Sonic can also keep opponents on their toes. That's the key to using Sonic. Revise your list in that aspect.
Then show me the vids, give me some explanations and maybe it'll make sense to me. But saying "Oh, sonic is better than this guy" Will not suffice. From what I've been reading, and from what I've played, Sonic is a tough character to play with. Low priority (except on his spin move), and his attacks have low range. He's just not a star character like you want him to be.
 

J0K3R

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
210
Location
New York.
Yes, thank you very much. Now I feel like I know the ICs better. Out of all the characters I really have played them the least next to G&W/ROB. Although I haven't run into anyone who's maining them. Which is why I placed the mid-tier. I really had no idea of their potential. I just knew they were a pain in the *** in Melee to fight whenever someone had ATs mastered.

I'll bump them up to high tier.

And I hope it's ok if I use your explanation.

I'm going to attempt to do this in the least bias way possible... Priority Characters will get the top and high tiers right away, along with campers. I do not place these in order, I place these characters in the branch I believe they belong in. (In otherwards, one character on the bottom of the top tier list may be better than one in the middle, vice versa. It's too early to specifically make statements about who's better in which tier)

Remember, this is opinionated... argue with me if you please I'm sure I'm wrong :laugh:


UPDATE: Moved Iceclimbers from middle tier to high tier.

Top Tier
Wolf- Wolf has a decent range attack that does not only disrupt the opponent, but also deals 5%-7% Damage. He has long range on most of his attacks and his recovery attacks are not so easy to edge Guard. He's earned the right to be in top tier imo.
King Dedede- One thing that puts Dedede over the edge is his Chain-grab. It's such a simple concept, and it's just sickening when it happens to you. King Dedede may be slow, but they've also given him camping capabilities. He's just too much of a force to be reckoned with sometimes. Powerful (But slow...) attacks, a disjoint, camping capabilities, and chain grabbing... what more could you want in a character :ohwell: .
Toon Link- The best thing about TL is his insane range abilities, three different range attacks, all have good power. You can basically build a wall with his arrows if you were skilled enough. To top the icing on the cake, he has a powerful disjoint. His sword may look small and petty, but the hitbox on it is huge.
Falco- Once again I believe this bad bird deserves a spot on the top tier list purely because of his camping abilities. He's a major pain in the *** with short hoping. Plus he has advantages to certain characters like Shiek, and Captain Falcon, what with that infinite laser combo (Not that this is easy to pull off by any means...:ohwell: ) Although Falco may be put down a notch to the high tier list because of his ground attacks. They got nerfed just a bit in this game imo.
Marth- Marth is a fast, powerful (Tip of the ****, although harder to pull off), disjointed character. His sword overrides nearly all non-disjoint attacks. The range with his attacks is insane. He stays where he was last game, in the top/high tier list for me. He's a very difficult character to deal with if you're a character with neither a disjoint or a range attack.
Metaknight- Ho boy... Meta knight, imo, the most frustrating opponent to face. Such a character is only suited for fanatical berserkers. You barely have to try to hit someone and you do. The fact is, he has a disjoint, and if it was otherwise, he'd be lower in the tiers. It's just not easy to compete with a freaky swordsman that can send out attacks like a teenage boy does masturbating.
Pit- Another Character that can be deemed a "DPS" freak character. It doesn't take much for Pit to rack up damage on you. Most of his attacks can kill you past 100% which is bad, you'll get there fast if you're not careful. Not only does he have a sword (Disjoint), but he has ranged attacks, and they're useful too. You're able to change the direction of them from the start or half way through. Pit deserves a spot in the top or high tier list.

High Tier
Fox-Now most of you might knock me on the back of the head for putting Fox on the high tier list instead of top, but really, he's not as threatening as he was in Melee. His attacks have been dumbed down, they have some lag on them now, and shield shining is gone. His range is still there, annoying as ever, nonetheless, a terrible opponent to have to face.
Diddy Kong- Diddy Kong has some of the best Non-Disjoint game in Brawl. His aerials are pretty insane, along with his range attacks (**** you peeled bananas, why must I slip on you so much!) You can pretty much build a little fortress with two peeled bananas, then fire some peanuts at your **** opponent. Well... not really, but it's a nice gesture :laugh: you would never have the time to do that in a competitive match.
Ike- Ike, the huge *** 2 handed sword guy that uses one hand to use a 2 handed sword :laugh: . But seriously, he's one of the easiest characters to pick up. He does massive damage in one swing, and he's got the most powerful (Ganon's elbow may compete) over smash in the game. His aerial game is decent, and of course, the disjoint puts him over the top against non disjoints.
Zelda- Wow, did she improve from melee or what!? Her over B attack is just insane now, it has the hit box of a ****ing monster! Plus her aerial game is just over the top, powerful, and a hit box wonder. Her death kicks scare me sometimes :urg: . Although maybe I'm just overly excited about how she improved so much, maybe she's middle?
Rob- Despite me hating this guy, he's got potential to be a high tier character. He's got range, he's got decent hit boxes, and aerials. What more could you ask for (a disjoint I know :laugh: ) He's got some potential with combo'ing off of some of his attacks, particularly his uptilt (I think I'm right about the up tilt, or is it his up aerial?)
Gay and Watch erm... I mean Game and Watch- Despite me also hating this guy, he's got such freaking priority it pisses me off. All his bull**** with, oh, my key overrides your powerful rock hard head bowser, is just terrible. He's a character with a craptastic range attack, with priority. He's in high/top tier.
Ice Climbers- Quote from: Corner-Trap
Snake- Very unsure about this guy right now, he's got some incredible potential in my eyes though. Range attacks galore is all I can say. Ground tilts/smashes seem ok, and he's got some insane aerials. He's in the high/top tier list.
ZZS- Whatta *****! Her paralysis attacks are terrible if you get caught in them, and she has more than one. Not only that, she's a freaking monster when it comes to speed, that and Aerials...
Lucas- Ugh, I hate to say this, but the pansy has quite a bit of potential. His PK thunder, frost, and fire all pay quite a toll on the defensive types, and his aerials **** the offensive types. The ****er has over all a good arsenal of regular tilts and smashes.

Middle Tier

Pokemon Trainer- Pokemon Trainer has the most potential next to Olimar. Three different pokemon ready to bend at the will of the trainer. I place him near high tier because he can counter characters. Charizard, Squirtle, and Ivysaur all have their pro's and con's. Squirtle having insane aerials, Charizard having great ground work, and Ivysaur having some range. They compliment each other very well.
Pikachu- Ah, good ol' Pikachu, you never do change much do you? I may underestimate you though. Your electrical disjoints do have a bit more priority than the pitiful non-disjointed characters, and you have one of the most annoying range attacks in the game. Perhaps you deserve high tier?
Wario- As a Wario player myself, I can say he is definitely one of the best non-disjoint characters in his game (besides his bike). He's got some above average aerials, and some below average smashes. Above all he has one of the top recoveries in the game (allowing some very good edge guarding strategies)
Mario- Again... Mario comes in as an average character, always with his average range fireball attacks, and his average aerials, and his average tilts/smashes. Average average average.
Ness- Ness has improved since last game, he's more maneuverable than in melee, and he still has the aerials that he had in melee. Not to mention his ****in' baseball bat. He's still retained his range attacks, which pits him almost between high and middle.
Lucario - What a complicated character, at one end of the scale he's complete crap from the start, and at the other end of the scale he's a powerhouse with a risk. He has a powerful range attack that doesnt... have that much range, and some decent aerials. The more he get's hurt the stronger he becomes. Some may say he's on the lower end of the spectrum while others say he's at the higher end. I'm not that knowledgeable of this character.
Luigi- Luigi has stayed pretty much the same this round, despite his feeling of inferiority :ohwell: His Karate chop has always been my favorite aerial, and he has some other decent ones. Don't forget his crappy range attack that disappears almost instantly! His ground game isn't as good as it used to be imo, everything seems a tid bit weaker with him. I could be wrong though.
Olimar- Take it from me, who's fighting someone who's maining and training as olimar 24/7. He's not as great as some would like to think. He becomes very vulnerable when airbourne. That means when he's facing disjointed aerial freaks, he gets ****ed. He's recovery is pitiful. All you have to do is hop on the edge, and press down and jump repeatedly till he gets near the edge and he plunges to his death by fault of his stupid UP-B recovery. Now despite that, he has insane camping capabilities, and insane range with his grab (**** YOU BLUE PIKMIN, WHY HAVE YOU BETRAYED ME!). He's a damage racker while a powerhouse at the same time, the only problem is organizing your pikmin. They're random so you could end up with 4 blue pikmin and 2 red, then what do you do? Spend your time throwing them off the edge while your opponent ***** you in the butt? I think not, maybe in time Olimar will move up or down the chain, but right now I think it's best to assume he belongs in the middle. His bad qualities equal out with his good.
Sheik- Oh Sheik, poor poor Sheik, you've gone down the hole haven't you? But not to worry, you're just an average player now! Now, people won't despise you as much! I've got nothing to say other than her prowess in aerials has gone to **** alone with her ground game.
Peach- Now maybe Peach does belong to the high tier list, maybe she doesn't. But I know that when I fought the only peach player I knew, it wasn't overwhelming like she used to be. Her game seems to be the same, but really once you touch her, it's like everything changed slightly. None of her moves connect like they did before and they're slightly weaker (% wise and power wise).
Bowser- Ho-bo a debated character. Slow, but powerful, it's too hard to hit with him period. If it was any easier I'd place him higher. Counter characters such as Ike, and Marth can see his pitifully slow attacks coming a mile away... One thing that puts him over the edge is his suicidal kill. It can really win a match if used correctly. Opponent A has 0% with 2 stock, while you have 153% with 3 stock, use the suicide technique, and you're 1 full stock ahead of him now :ohwell:
Kirby- His game has improved slightly with the dash attack and the double hammer swing. It seems like his entire arsenal of aerials has improved slightly. Not much to say on this little guy.
Samus- I'm boldly disappointed in this character now, she's heavy as hell and her recovery sucks a ****. Her range attacks are weaker, and all her regular ground moves are worse! Wtf were they thinking when they made this character. If I didn't let my biasm kick in, I'd put her in low tier.
Link- He got a punch in the face with his gale boomerang this round... It's so pitiful compared to his past boomerangs, hell, TL got a better boomerang than him :ohwell: It's one thing that really helped him melee, and it's gone. His UP B is no longer an edgeguarding tech and all his attacks are fairly weak. For a disjoint character, he is the worst. All he has working for him is his bombs and arrows...
Yoshi- Yoshi is on the verge of low tier here... Not sure about him too much, they nerfed his down aerial too much, and they nerfed his over B in the air. He drops straight down now, whats the deal with that. He's still got potential with some of his smashes, and he's got some potential with his egg tosses. Perhaps he's fighting for a spot on middle tier.

Low tier

Donkey Kong- He's got the long arms, just not the speed. He's hard to use, but he may deserve a spot on middle tier just yet. His Uair is decent, along with his back aerial. He's quite powerful too... I just don't thing many will go far with this guy. Although they helped him out with his Over B this smash.
Jigglypuff- Her fading tactics are now gone, and she's nothing more than a football to most characters ready to punt her off the stage. Her aerials are still decent, she just can't use her fading to bait the opponent into attacking anymore. That was her strong point. Her sleep attack is now rendered useless. It's harder to hit with it than ever.
Captain Falcon- Falcon... oh falcon your knee is gone! What happened to it, it's incredibly hard to hit with it now! Despite your falcon kick being slightly better, everything else has changed! Your speed now being dominated by sonic (who is also fail) is rendered useless because your attacks are so much worse now! Falcon punch will always remain in my heart though...
Sonic- Do I even need to get into the details of why Sonic is fail... Although I will try to main him at one point being a sonic fanboy.
Ganondorf- Christalmighty, you've gone down the ****ter this game. You used to be slighty agile with wavelanding, and your hit boxes are so much smaller! Your aerial games have gone to ****. I can barely land any hits on my opponents with my Over Aerials, my Dairs, or my Bairs. Your warlock punch is far to easy to see (Despite it kicking *** when it does connect) and your warlock kick get's overrided by a simple disjoint... I'm sorry Ganon, but I have to give you up! I've tried playing with you, but you're just not the same as Melee.
Only thing i have to add is...

teenage masturbation, it'll getcha
 

Sonic XD

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 23, 2008
Messages
516
Then show me the vids, give me some explanations and maybe it'll make sense to me. But saying "Oh, sonic is better than this guy" Will not suffice. From what I've been reading, and from what I've played, Sonic is a tough character to play with. Low priority (except on his spin move), and his attacks have low range. He's just not a star character like you want him to be.
Sonic has potential. Hes very hard to use, but people that know how to use him really have an edge in battles.
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
9,007
Location
Middle of nowhere. Myrtle Beach
Instead of saying it's stupid, give reasons why Sonic is not worst than DK. The last time I went to a tournament, a Sonic ditto took longer than most of the matches there with campers. (7 minutes for 3 stocks...) Also, from other matches I see and had matches with against Sonic, he lacks killing AND enough high priority moves to really help him. DK on the other hand, has range, KO moves, and decent priority. Only thing, Sonic has over him is ground speed (DK is quite mobile in the air) and recovery (Sonic has much better and safer recovery than DK).
Its stupid. Its crap. Tier list discussion is basically made up of fools who do not even attempt trying to utilze the many strategies in character discussion for any character before judging.
/rant
Now that it is done.

Sonic destroys everyone in low tier. I've made the exact same argument the past couple of pages and each time people ignore me like I am some mad blind man on the streets. Quite frustrating considering its logical and intelligent.
Oh but let me restate everything again.


sonic=great range
Obviously you would not know this since you do not play him enough. For one his speed makes range a little issue and his homing attack is an excelent move for punishing laggy moves. His Spin dash has MASSIVE priority making it ideal for approaching and he also has wicked aerial speed when you jump cancel his spindash that surpasses a large amount of the cast. It enhances his approaching game something that DK cannot even do.
I haven't pulled it off yet or tested but Sonic's Fair is apparently a reflector during certain frames.

Lack of priority hurts him NOT killing ability since MK has the same problem. Ifyou played him extensively, you would realize his game lies in chasing. Something that a large amount of teh cast cannot do.. Knock your opponent off, Fair them away, Bair them away, Spring them away. Sonic can do it far more extensively than the majority of the cast.


his aerial game is better than Snake's who many people constantly refer to as top tier. (I guess its the aneurysms but thats just me)
He gimps the crap out of nearly everyone. the only people he cannot gimp is,
Pit, R.O.B and other characters whose recovery is basically amazing. Even then a Fair at 100% off the arena is practically gauranteed to kill your opponent unless they have an awesome recovery.

Everyone who isn't Marth,Peach,Olimar,Toon Link,Luigi,MetaKnight ALL have issues keeping up with his game especially when Sonic becomes unpredictable. yet people still place him on bottom and place characters like Snake who is obviously mid tier or high tier at best in top.
Christ its like when marth first appeared and everyone dumped him as low.

Whatever its just gonna get ignored again.
 

J0K3R

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
210
Location
New York.
Sonic has potential. Hes very hard to use, but people that know how to use him really have an edge in battles.
He's good to a point, and then he becomes too readable with his dash/homing attacks. on the basic/casual level he is very good, but he lacks mindgames/projectiles/spacing in a competitve atmosphere
 

Sonic XD

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 23, 2008
Messages
516
He's good to a point, and then he becomes too readable with his dash/homing attacks. on the basic/casual level he is very good, but he lacks mindgames/projectiles/spacing in a competitve atmosphere
There is a technique to make the amount of lag on a homing attack half.
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
9,007
Location
Middle of nowhere. Myrtle Beach
He's good to a point, and then he becomes too readable with his dash/homing attacks. on the basic/casual level he is very good, but he lacks mindgames/projectiles/spacing in a competitve atmosphere
That is why you mix up your attacks and mix in some spin dash, spin charge, homing attack(delayed/reduced) jump cancel, spring approach etc etc. Hmm I don't quite see how someone can be predictable when they have a better variety of options than EVERYONE in low tier. Yet thats where he still ends up.
Play a good sonic like Lucky or Zeal and you'll see how good Sonic really is.
He isn't high tier matieral but he sure as hell isn't low tier material either.

Blargh. Makes me as annoyed as when I realzied that Captain Falcon had lost some of his knee hitbox ability and much of his combos.
 

Corner-Trap

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 17, 2007
Messages
535
Location
Fayetteville, NC
Oh, so you're calling me stupid? Why don't you use rob against my sonic. Lets see who wins scrub. And before you say that sonic is fail, you should see some of the expert vids. Maybe you might want to change your opinion after that. Sonic can also keep opponents on their toes. That's the key to using Sonic. Revise your list in that aspect. Make sure you tell WHY sonic is fail in your tier list, otherwise sonic belongs in mid tier. The lowest tier for sonic is low tier, but not second to bottom tier. There are a lot of good sonic users.
Sonic is hot garbage in this game. He literally has no advantages outside of his fast movement speed. His attacks actually come out slow. He does poor damage and can't even KO well to compensate. Most other characters simply beat him out of his attacks because he also has bad range and priority. Seriously though, what does Sonic have to put him above bottom tier?

*throws rock at corner trap yeah take that...*
lol j/k these is why thise thread should be closed it's never gona be like a agreement between any of us because every one of us have are playing style we all have are mindgames and whatnot i mean amatures can do thise because the game is new to them.MY POINT

Is that everybody play diff so a tier list should not be brought up by us because we will favor someone over others :)
So that means only the people who win tournys(because of there styles and understanding of the game) would make a natural tier list but i mean thise post will disapear because of all the people that favor charecters will keep posting so aslong as some people see it i guess that my job is done.
*corner-trap throws nana out in front of him to get hit by the rock......*

Of course people will have varying opinions, the game is still early and lots of things are being discovered, and theory fighter can be kinda fun sometimes.

EDIT:

Too all the people who are against tier lists in general, or tier list discussions, or anything related to tier lists, why do y'all even post or bother to look at this thread? You already know what to expect so why waste your time and this threads space by posting in it?
 

RetroBro

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
515
Its stupid. Its crap. Tier list discussion is basically made up of fools who do not even attempt trying to utilze the many strategies in character discussion for any character before judging.
/rant
Now that it is done.

Sonic destroys everyone in low tier. I've made the exact same argument the past couple of pages and each time people ignore me like I am some mad blind man on the streets. Quite frustrating considering its logical and intelligent.
Oh but let me restate everything again.


sonic=great range
Obviously you would not know this since you do not play him enough. For one his speed makes range a little issue and his homing attack is an excelent move for punishing laggy moves. His Spin dash has MASSIVE priority making it ideal for approaching and he also has wicked aerial speed when you jump cancel his spindash that surpasses a large amount of the cast. It enhances his approaching game something that DK cannot even do.
I haven't pulled it off yet or tested but Sonic's Fair is apparently a reflector during certain frames.

Lack of priority hurts him NOT killing ability since MK has the same problem. Ifyou played him extensively, you would realize his game lies in chasing. Something that a large amount of teh cast cannot do.. Knock your opponent off, Fair them away, Bair them away, Spring them away. Sonic can do it far more extensively than the majority of the cast.


his aerial game is better than Snake's who many people constantly refer to as top tier. (I guess its the aneurysms but thats just me)
He gimps the crap out of nearly everyone. the only people he cannot gimp is,
Pit, R.O.B and other characters whose recovery is basically amazing. Even then a Fair at 100% off the arena is practically gauranteed to kill your opponent unless they have an awesome recovery.

Everyone who isn't Marth,Peach,Olimar,Toon Link,Luigi,MetaKnight ALL have issues keeping up with his game especially when Sonic becomes unpredictable. yet people still place him on bottom and place characters like Snake who is obviously mid tier or high tier at best in top.
Christ its like when marth first appeared and everyone dumped him as low.

Whatever its just gonna get ignored again.
As a wario player, I have no probably facing people who play sonic. And yes you're right about me not have played sonic enough to make judgement. That's why I asked people in the first paragraph to argue and try to sway me. I just dont see how he could be even above middle tier! Possibly between middle and low. His lack of priority is what kills him, and his lack of fatal attacks. You have to rack up around 130%+ TO actually kill someone with him. I'll put an explanation in for him now and maybe bump him up in time.

EDIT: I've changed the explanation. And can you send me some videos showing how Sonic can be utilized in order to actually put him above low tier. Words aren't enough to bump him right now.

The lowest tier for sonic is low tier, but not second to bottom tier. There are a lot of good sonic users
Remember, at first, I was simply putting them in their respective branches, ignoring order. I'm going to start sorting them out in the next week. And I may have a plausible tier list eventually.
 

J0K3R

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
210
Location
New York.
That is why you mix up your attacks and mix in some spin dash, spin charge, homing attack(delayed/reduced) jump cancel, spring approach etc etc. Hmm I don't quite see how someone can be predictable when they have a better variety of options than EVERYONE in low tier. Yet thats where he still ends up.
Play a good sonic like Lucky or Zeal and you'll see how good Sonic really is.
He isn't high tier matieral but he sure as hell isn't low tier material either.

Blargh. Makes me as annoyed as when I realzied that Captain Falcon had lost some of his knee hitbox ability and much of his combos.
I never said he was low tier. I just said he isnt as good as people make him out to be.
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
9,007
Location
Middle of nowhere. Myrtle Beach
As a wario player, I have no probably facing people who play sonic. And yes you're right about me not have played sonic enough to make judgement. That's why I asked people in the first paragraph to argue and try to sway me. I just dont see how he could be even above middle tier! Possibly between middle and low. His lack of priority is what kills him, and his lack of fatal attacks. You have to rack up around 130%+ TO actually kill someone with him. I'll put an explanation in for him now and maybe bump him up in time.
It depends. usually depending on how my opponent attempts to recover I can usually kill them off at around 100%.
Sometimes less if I am having a good day and gimp their recovery attempts. Its hard to gimp characters like say Wario because their recovery is so good and so you really have to be quick on how you attack.


corner-trap said:
Sonic is hot garbage in this game. He literally has no advantages outside of his fast movement speed. His attacks actually come out slow. He does poor damage and can't even KO well to compensate. Most other characters simply beat him out of his attacks because he also has bad range and priority. Seriously though, what does Sonic have to put him above bottom tier?
I wish you would read my posts. it really helps.

Ignorance is just ignorance, its never bliss.
If you are on tomorrow after 1 p.m. eastern I can always educate you a bit. you can choose ANY of the other bottom/low tier characters while I choose Sonic.
He does good damage. A combo from sonic racks up from 13%-20%.
his attacks are slow? Evidently you have never used anyone outside of Marth if you think this.

I never said he was low tier. I just said he isnt as good as people make him out to be.
Ah my mistake then.
It just annoys the heck out of that they place characters who murder those that in bottom and low and still place him there.
Tier lists are based upon the characters performance and strategy overall and in comparison to other characters. This becomes even worse seeing as the majority of people here do not main Sonic or at least try to utilize the strategies mentioned in character specifics.
It would be like me saying Ike is bottom tier due to his slow speed, and bad recovery.
Evidently why is Ike middle tier.
He has one of the worst approach games out there and considering that camping is a strong strategy I am surprised he isn't low in the middle tier list.
 

Sonic XD

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 23, 2008
Messages
516
Sonic's side taunt is one of the best ways to make sonic annoying. Try to include that in your tier list.
 

TheGlitchMaster

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 24, 2007
Messages
1,119
i was making a refrence to smash kingdom, yeesh! but really, i think brawl isn't ready for a tier...we need to have a few tournements first.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom