Conviction
Human Nature
Good ****. wait for the fire, smokey the bear wont be happy.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Official BBR Tier List v5
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
- Status
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Peach and Marth are both trash discuss
TROLOLOLOL
TROLOLOLOL
Conviction
Human Nature
Sharing time with DMG.
Basically, any aerial that hits MK shield is not safe even when fully retreated because of his OOS options. Dair for example is unfortunate in that all mixups and different timings in animation on shield are all negated. The basic thing behind everything is that SH Nair hits everything.
1: If you Dair MK shield and move away really early, OOS Nair actually nabs him while he is retreating back. You can also Shield Grab Wario EVEN if he auto cancels it perfectly because landing lag screws him over, and if he is still airborne he can't drift away from you in time to avoid the grab. It's even easier if Wario has a hard landing (not the landing where Wario hits his head into the ground and gets lag, but a regular fast fell landing): fast falled Dair leads to heavy landing for example.
2. If you Dair MK shield and cross him up fully (either retreating behind him before the move ends or auto cancelled behind him perfectly) OOS Nair still hits.
3. Auto cancelling it in front of MK also gets hit by Nair unfortunately, and you can shield grab it. If Wario is sloppy about it, technically you could even drop shield and Ftilt/Dtilt quickly. Hard landing in particular.
Other aerials were probably obvious to many of you. For example the gap inbetween Nair hits. Ground moves also had obvious punishment windows. Fsmash, Tilts, etc. Dair however was long believed to be safe when done properly, but OOS Nair is apparently fast enough and far reaching enough to nab his attempts if they ever touch his shield. Because of this, it makes shielding against Wario's air approaches a lot stronger. Especially approaches with DJing or fast falling because they are more likely to lead to a hard landing.
I tested it with a buddy over the weekend actually. First time in a long time that I played the game in a serious manner outside of tournaments. Went MK vs his characters, and then faced his Wario. Did it a few times on accident, then tried duplicating it and it worked every time. Flipped it, had him play MK while I went Wario and told him what to look for and he got it down.
1: If you Dair MK shield and move away really early, OOS Nair actually nabs him while he is retreating back. You can also Shield Grab Wario EVEN if he auto cancels it perfectly because landing lag screws him over, and if he is still airborne he can't drift away from you in time to avoid the grab. It's even easier if Wario has a hard landing (not the landing where Wario hits his head into the ground and gets lag, but a regular fast fell landing): fast falled Dair leads to heavy landing for example.
2. If you Dair MK shield and cross him up fully (either retreating behind him before the move ends or auto cancelled behind him perfectly) OOS Nair still hits.
3. Auto cancelling it in front of MK also gets hit by Nair unfortunately, and you can shield grab it. If Wario is sloppy about it, technically you could even drop shield and Ftilt/Dtilt quickly. Hard landing in particular.
Other aerials were probably obvious to many of you. For example the gap inbetween Nair hits. Ground moves also had obvious punishment windows. Fsmash, Tilts, etc. Dair however was long believed to be safe when done properly, but OOS Nair is apparently fast enough and far reaching enough to nab his attempts if they ever touch his shield. Because of this, it makes shielding against Wario's air approaches a lot stronger. Especially approaches with DJing or fast falling because they are more likely to lead to a hard landing.
I tested it with a buddy over the weekend actually. First time in a long time that I played the game in a serious manner outside of tournaments. Went MK vs his characters, and then faced his Wario. Did it a few times on accident, then tried duplicating it and it worked every time. Flipped it, had him play MK while I went Wario and told him what to look for and he got it down.
Actually, unless you were someone close to M2K or someone involved in testing moves, 90% of the community didn't even know that SL had invincibility early on, or had wrong ideas about when it applied. People also got better at punishing moves as time passed.
A big reason it was missed IMO was because the frame data concerning that iirc did not take into account landing lag or could not factor in punishments spacing wise. Dair if not auto cancelled can give the other guy a huge frame advantage, but how many people looked at hitting a shield and drifting away and trying to shield grab afterwards? Kinda like people looking at spotdodging or rolling while MK tornadoes your shield, it's not something you actively look for at first.
A big reason it was missed IMO was because the frame data concerning that iirc did not take into account landing lag or could not factor in punishments spacing wise. Dair if not auto cancelled can give the other guy a huge frame advantage, but how many people looked at hitting a shield and drifting away and trying to shield grab afterwards? Kinda like people looking at spotdodging or rolling while MK tornadoes your shield, it's not something you actively look for at first.
Conviction
Human Nature
Damn...that makes me think what else that we thought was safe against MK really isn't....
Conviction
Human Nature
Wait so does this mean? MK's OoS options>Wario?
More or less, it means that you have to hard read in order to not take damage when coming at a grounded Meta Knight with an aerial. Problem is, Wario doesn't really have any other options. Meta Knight's not just gonna let you play with your bike, and you're sure as hell not going to beat his ground game.
What can I say? I should play just play a better character, like Meta Knight.QQ all day, son.
Lol. I mean, I think it's warranted considering a large portion of that MU was that Wario could attempt to Dair MK, and at worst still be safe if he hit shield/couldn't actively hit him with the move. When that is changed into "Don't hit his shield with something because it's unsafe", that's a very nasty leap backwards for beating the character with the one in question. If you wanna call that QQ, go ahead. But you'd also be a fool not to recognize that going from safe on shield to unsafe on shield is not a fortunate thing at all for Wario.QQ all day, son.
It means Wario can't whilly nilly throw Dair out and be safe on shield. It means you gotta play a RPS with MK that's not as comfortable for Wario as it was before.
Also:
It means that if your character has similar or better resistance to shield sliding than MK/better grab range, that you can reliably shield grab his Dair from the front. Unless your grab is something janky slow like tether, maybe Snake, Zelda, etc
It means that if your character has similar or better resistance to shield sliding than MK/better grab range, that you can reliably shield grab his Dair from the front. Unless your grab is something janky slow like tether, maybe Snake, Zelda, etc
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2008
- Messages
- 27,486
- Location
- Milwaukee, Wisconsin
- NNID
- RedRyu_Smash
- 3DS FC
- 0344-9312-3352
Wonder if Lucario can, bad grab range but it's fast and he has the best traction resistance in the game.
DMG you have listed multple options so you can at least try to mix-up, I can't believe someone thought the dair is absolutely safe lol
it's "safe" on shield until now because you can mix-up the way you're approaching and even if everything is theoreticallly unsafe the mix up potential let you be safe often enough, it's not that easy to react to what wario does perfectly.
it's "safe" on shield until now because you can mix-up the way you're approaching and even if everything is theoreticallly unsafe the mix up potential let you be safe often enough, it's not that easy to react to what wario does perfectly.
Cubone
Smash Lord
Wait....
ROB needs to drop due to lack of results despite making more money than anyone below him, except Wolf, in addition to making more than everone above him up to Dedede. (Lucario beats him with the split but ROB pulls ahead without it.)?
He might not have the same national presence as everyone else (largely due to lack of traveling players) but he still puts up better results than the characters around him.
ROB needs to drop due to lack of results despite making more money than anyone below him, except Wolf, in addition to making more than everone above him up to Dedede. (Lucario beats him with the split but ROB pulls ahead without it.)?
He might not have the same national presence as everyone else (largely due to lack of traveling players) but he still puts up better results than the characters around him.
Conviction
Human Nature
In locals only?
Excluding stingers.
Excluding stingers.
Fuujin
Smash Champion
Speaking of new topics, am I the only one who thinks Ganon and Zelda are both to similar to be in a separate tier?
Like either move her down to G tier or move him up to F tier(preferably the latter).
Then again I'm one of the few people who actually know how bad she really is.
Like either move her down to G tier or move him up to F tier(preferably the latter).
Then again I'm one of the few people who actually know how bad she really is.
Cubone
Smash Lord
Just because they aren't traveling doesn't mean anything... you have 8bitman down in Florida taking games (occasionally sets) off basically everyone on the PR who HAVE proven themselves with traveling, t0mmy up in the Pacific NW is stacking up against Felix, Nerd and Jem.
ROB has no reason to move down, at worst he should be staying where hes at and watching some of the characters around him shuffle.
Wolf and Sonic both are looking like they need to rise as well.
ROB has no reason to move down, at worst he should be staying where hes at and watching some of the characters around him shuffle.
Wolf and Sonic both are looking like they need to rise as well.
Conviction
Human Nature
Where is that effecting the metagame quote from Reflex at?
EDIT: Just caught this. Taking games doesn't really count. Taking sets is what matters. Taking games is like almost winning. Almost doesn't count.
EDIT2: Found it
EDIT: Just caught this. Taking games doesn't really count. Taking sets is what matters. Taking games is like almost winning. Almost doesn't count.
EDIT2: Found it
TP
Smash Master
If Ganon still can't get into low tiers, Zelda and Bowser should join him in the fail club.
TP
Smash Master
I literally haven't seen Bowser win a game in over a year.
Conviction
Human Nature
I've actually forgetten completely about Bowser being in this game.
Cubone
Smash Lord
Then how do you justify anyone in mid tier being higher than Sonic, Peach and DK if national results are the only thing affecting the metagame? Even Marth and Wario are lacking in that regard.
Using Marth in 1 game @ whobo3 shouldn't count for anything.
Using Marth in 1 game @ whobo3 shouldn't count for anything.
Conviction
Human Nature
Lol..what? Fox, Wolf, and Ness? I'm pretty sure have been at national tournies recently.
EDIT: Speaking of ROB MUs how is the ROB vs. Wolf MU?
I don't see how Fox and Falco have a +2 on Rob but Wolf loses the MU...
Namesearching into here...I call upon thee...Seagull Man
and Kain
Cubone
Smash Lord
MK MU is made out to be a lot worse than it is, the rest of high/top tier are nearly even, excluding DDD (who is without a doubt ROBs worst MU).
Where are Fox and Wolf? Zeton's 17th at whobo3 would still have Fox coming in UNDER Peach and DK.
I'd also like to the raise the question of how well they have to place for it to be considered an impact, because anything after 16th isn't imo.
Conviction
Human Nature
I'd like to raise the question who did the characters beat on their way to their placing?
Either way the real question is, Where has ROB been nationally?
His MK MU is pretty bad. Chibo vs Seibrik seemed pretty bad, and last time I saw T0mmy play Jem he got wrecked. Also theres no way all of his high/top tier MUs are near even lol.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
I change my mind so often on Rob vs Wolf. I've beaten both Chibo and Stingers before, but I don't know anymore. I'll just say it's even at this point. Wolf's juggling game on Rob is great. They can both camp each other. Rob has a great gimping technique if Wolf is in an awkward position over the edge. Both are heavy, but I think Wolf kills a lot better.
Holms got 25th at Whobo while beating Dojo in terms of nationals for Wolf. I also got 33rd at pound 5, but couldn't attend bracket Monday so I was dq'd. I might've placed higher lol.
Personally, I think Wolf is 1st if it's a mid tier tourney =).
Holms got 25th at Whobo while beating Dojo in terms of nationals for Wolf. I also got 33rd at pound 5, but couldn't attend bracket Monday so I was dq'd. I might've placed higher lol.
Personally, I think Wolf is 1st if it's a mid tier tourney =).
When it comes to Dair and you are shielding it, it kinda is easy because you can limit your punish to Nair specifically. Regardless of which side you come from/end up on, whether you back away before the move ends or stay in his face and auto cancel, Nair will hit you. It basically becomes Shield the Dair, and have your finger on the trigger lol.
ROB doesn't sound too bad against higher tiered characters, but he doesn't really have any winning MU's with most of them. Most of his MU's are either 55:45 or 6:4 against him when it comes to those characters. Which doesn't sound too bad, but not having a "great" MU vs common tournament characters isn't a big plus. I mean, he can probably manage to go even or slight edge on some higher tiers like IC's, but yeah.
Then if we go by international tournament results, put Ike in there, too.
_Kain_
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2009
- Messages
- 2,154
My namesearching is broken and I don't know why...but I saw this neway
ROB is weird...spacing wise he can compete with Wolf, but once ROB is in the air he gets *****. No safe or reliable options for landing and his falling speed is horrible. He's also not that good on the ground. He has his tools in that he's actually one of the legit chars in the game that is capable of really gimping Wolf. Laser, bair, dair all give Wolf trouble getting back and the long lasting hitboxes hit him out of Side B, which not many chars can do reliably. That and the fact the ROB prolly has 2 good cps and Wolf is Wolf on all stages. I used to think it was disadv but I've been looking closer and I'm starting to think it's an even MU. I don't really see anything that ROB has outstanding on Wolf to give him that +1. I mean he gives Wolf trouble offstage but, ROB is pretty balls offstage too
Who cares though who even uses ROB anymore other than best ROB on the planet Stingers and he's in NC so I'll never see that nugga
John12346
Smash Master
John Numbers rage mode
If the "money won" data is too skewed by one or two players using shenanigans, then we turn to quantitative data, which counts the number of different players who have placed in the money for that character. In that case, everyone in the whole universe is only capable of giving Marth a maximum of +1 in that stat, even Ally.
D
Deleted member
Guest
We're currently discussing the ROB vs. Wolf MU on our boards if you're curious.
- Status