Data Now, Let's try it Together: Wii Fit Trainer's Matchup Thread (Trying a New System & Owner Soon)

[⑨ball]

The Art of Sheik

A good watch. I recommend it to get a better idea of Sheik's tools and options.

 

[Salad Bowl]

That's right, I said I would do that....

I can probably get to that tomorrow or so.

Ok thanks that would make things a lot easier

 

[Kith]

Finally played a Sheik in For Glory.

 

[Oatmeal.]

Got around to adding in some posts in the OP. If there are any specific posts you would like put there (that of course aren't already there), please let me know, I'll gladly oblige.

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

I think we should definitely start talking about .

 

[⑨ball]

I think we should definitely start talking about .

Me and Chivalruse discussed at some lengths about the MU already here .
I still feel really undecided because Ness has a really strong spacing and ground game, but I never feel like he has control over the pace of the match like I do versus much weaker characters.

 

[madworlder]

I wish he wasn't so damn short. Header really puts in work. That's about all I know.

 

[Oatmeal.]

Sorry I've been out for so long. Christmas season, you get the deal.

Anyway, we want Ness now? Or one of those widely detested characters such as Yoshi or Mac?

 

[PurpleWeeaboo]

T-up for Ness.

Feel that it is very much overdue.

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

I find b reversals and SS at point blank to be quite useful. As well as dash attack.

 

[SpScarecrow]

Thank Master Hand we're talking about Ness. I literally had a set with someone online.
Its annoying. His options are faster. He can absorb projectiles. I find using her offstage game helps gimp him out of PK thunder recovery.

 

[Salad Bowl]

Ness is so annoying that SS have to be very precise and also he can kill her really early. His height is annoying but imo the height isnt that hard to get through. i think its 40:60

 

[Salad Bowl]

I got werekill to sticky it.
Guys should i get the ness mains for help on the MU

 

[SpScarecrow]

You can try to use off stage header for the horizontal coverage but onstage Ness can easily dash in. Jab works if his percent us high because it buries him but most times he'll be shorthopping aerials. Shorthop over PK fire helps. Just my experience though

 

[Salad Bowl]

Also this might be hard to get but a well aimed header can cancel out his pk Thunder and it could lead to a early gimp. I'll get the ness mains for help

 

[⑨ball]

I got werekill to sticky it.
Guys should i get the ness mains for help on the MU

Good job on calling attention to those threads, and you probably won't get much out of them. Wft is pretty rare competitively, and combined with the fact that the few showings WFT's had outside of Crisspy and Big D haven't been the best, they'll most likely call it 6/4 out of pity.

I've been hesitant to call it but it's not worse than 5/5. I'll elaborate in an official post later.

 

[Salad Bowl]

Good job on calling attention to those threads, and you probably won't get much out of them. Wft is pretty rare competitively, and combined with the fact that the few showings WFT's had outside of Crisspy and Big D haven't been the best, they'll most likely call it 6/4 out of pity.

I've been hesitant to call it but it's not worse than 5/5.

ANTi's gonna play in the CT invitation and apex, wobbles went to a tournament with her 1 month ago and he's also going to apex, and shippo uses her in some rush hour smash tournaments and he's going to apex too. TKBreezys a well respected wii fit also. Combined with the other 2 you mentioned. We have 6

In all the tournaments and friendlies I've played, I think it's a bad MU for her. After a match with him I usually end up using zelda instead as a counterpick.

 

[⑨ball]

ANTi's gonna play in the CT invitation and apex, wobbles went to a tournament with her 1 month ago and he's also going to apex, and shippo uses her in some rush hour smash tournaments and he's going to apex too. TKBreezys a well respected wii fit also. Combined with the other 2 you mentioned. We have 6

In all the tournaments and friendlies I've played, I think it's a bad MU for her. After a match with him I usually end up using zelda instead as a counterpick.

I know about Anti, but haven't seen anything from him beyond the 3DS matches he played on Nakat's stream so I can't really say much there. Wobbles I did forget about, and is pretty dope. I hope he sticks with her. I haven't seen Shippo but I know he plays and is serious about playing her, but by that measure I'd also recognize Kith. TK's a respected player and community member, but I really dislike the way he plays her; no disrespect intended. I don't think he's good with her at all, but I'd love to have my mind changed.

So 3, since I can't really count people I haven't seen play in tourney. My biggest problem with recognizing other WFT players is that we have all of these discovered tools and information and yet we hardly ever see any of it in play. I don't say much about it, because playing a stream monster when you don't have any footage is a douche move, but I feel like a Diddy main watching other players do down throw into popgun the entire match.

That said, it'd still only be 6 compared to monstrous amount of representation characters like Sheik get.

 

[Salad Bowl]

Well I'm hoping to see some wii fit trainer from ANTi at the invitational he's in. Wobbles, I haven't seen him in a while. Why don't you like TK's playstyle

ANTis playing right now at clash tournaments in both the doubles and singles bracket with wii fit so I'll link the vids of him when they get posted

 

[⑨ball]

Well I'm hoping to see some wii fit trainer from ANTi at the invitational he's in. Wobbles, I haven't seen him in a while. Why don't you like TK's playstyle

ANTis playing right now at clash tournaments in both the doubles and singles bracket with wii fit so I'll link the vids of him when they get posted

****. I wanted to see those. Hope he does well.

But yeah, whenever I watch TK I feel like he's come directly out of 4glory. That isn't to say he's bad, rather the exact opposite in that when you're so much better than your opponent, you tend to play extremely lenient and unsafe with the most absurd hard reads because you know that either you're so much better you can afford to take however they punish you, or you've just got that much of a read on them because they're bad. Which is fine when it works, and is hype, but against other tournament level players it tends to fail more often than not. He doesn't do that with other characters I've seen him use on his stream or on video and it bothers me.

 

[Salad Bowl]

****. I wanted to see those. Hope he does well.

But yeah, whenever I watch TK I feel like he's come directly out of 4glory. That isn't to say he's bad, rather the exact opposite in that when you're so much better than your opponent, you tend to play extremely lenient and unsafe with the most absurd hard reads because you know that either you're so much better you can afford to take however they punish you, or you've just got that much of a read on them because they're bad. Which is fine when it works, and is hype, but against other tournament level players it tends to fail more often than not. He doesn't do that with other characters I've seen him use on his stream or on video and it bothers me.

ANTi only used him in doubles. sighs

 

[⑨ball]

Sigh indeed, my friend. Anyway here's that Ness drop. No customs bit added here because they seem to be having a problem getting solidified and keeping tournaments decently speedy.

======

Ness is actually good again! High Tier I’d wager even if for no other reason than having an unblockable kill move in bthrow. He does less now than in previous games due to not having to rely on ATs or heavy technical options, but what he does do he does extremely efficiently. While he’s gotten a nice handful of buffs that help him out in Smash 4, what’s really boosted Ness’ viability happens to be in the passive buffs he’s gotten from new system mechanics. The lack of things like chain grabs and edgehogging are huge boons for Ness and on top of the faster shield drop making the early meta extremely shield heavy, he’s looking pretty strong .

So how does our girl stack up against the boy from Onett with a strong arm and a willingness to play ball?

Better than you’d think. Let’s take a look.

Spoiler: The Neutral

Ness’ neutral game hasn’t changed much from other iterations. He’s still pretty slow with a very risky approach and decent spacing tools. His ability to space has been greatly amplified by his ability to short hop fairs which has a disjoint on it and good startup/recovery on nair and uair.

WFT as usual can feel safe in going for her charges as Ness has to respect her ability to go into shield. Poking with uncharged sun salutations means that Ness can be slowed down even more, constantly putting him back into dash start up if he wants to approach--during which he can not shield on reaction to something like a buffered dash attack or charge release. Even without sending out uncharged SS’ the threat of a release can often be enough to ward off reckless approaches. Of course he can also take gambles with PSI magnet as like Fox, he can cancel the recovery on it once the projectile has been absorbed. However it is still a gamble, and is quite a large one. Header does a decent job controlling space as well, but outside of setups, only at SH and above height which Ness isn’t terribly concerned about.

Combined with WFT’s superior running and aerial movement, she has a slight advantage here.

Spoiler: On Offense

On offense, WFT has to play very safe against Ness on the ground or submit herself to the same types of risks he must take. First off Ness loves his throws. As such, from countdown to kill he will always be fishing for them and looking for opportunities to land them. This means that he will often be looking to punish bad moves and shieldgrab anything he can; and when he can’t? Nair OoS is a great option that recovers fast and covers his immediate area well. His tilts while not completely useless, won’t really see much use, even in pivots so instead beware the ground b-reversed pkfire. Thanks to SS he can’t use retreating Fairs as well as he can versus some other characters without risking taking one to the face. SHFF’D nairs and reverse fair are decent enough once you get in, but run the risk of getting beaten out by aerials if read and nair OoS if misspaced in the heat of battle. If WFT ever gets enough space to do so, jab header becomes a great way to approach with much less risk.

The MU plays very similarly when WFT is defending, and it is this delicate balance of high risk/reward play for both characters that really defines it; putting the general outcome of the match more so in the hands of the players and their ability to bait and read than the characters and their available tools.

When successful however, things begin to change quite a bit. SHFF’D aerials do considerable damage, with Nair in particular needing no more than 3 punishes before Ness reaches DBless kill percents. Once in the air Ness can have an extremely rough time . Like many other characters his Dair comes out too slow to use as a counter to pressure from below. His movement is generally linear, relying on fast falling and double jumps to reach the ground which against a speedy character like WFT can be especially difficult. This all comes to a head when header returns to play covering the short hop space in landing along with SS, autocancelling SH fairs (which push offstage but hit at uair height so she doesn’t have to contend with any of his faster aerials), her invincible Usmash , and being fast enough at all to be there when he tries to land.

Finally, while WFT should get much more mileage out of her offstage play in the MU, she certainly has the ability to kill outright and at a much earlier percent than Ness’ bthrow with Usmash and Uair setups.

Spoiler: on defense

While defending,things generally play the same because WFT can not duck Ness’ grab.

His approach will usually boil down to dash up shield and dash up [spacing option](sh fair/nair in place). While it sounds underwhelming on paper, the ability to shield drop so quickly in Smash 4 makes this quite decent as an approach for a lot of characters, though certainly still risky enough. Ness in particular enjoys it well enough as down throw into fair in a guaranteed combo. However unlike some other characters, dthrow>fair is all he gets for free. WFT’s thin frame means she falls out off combo range much earlier making it much less useful against her than other characters where he can combo up to three fairs. Her thin frame also means she must be closer to opponents in order to grab and get grabbed. Much like how if certain characters are too close they will whiff right through her with certain attacks, being able to move just slightly out of range without using shield can prove very effective.

Brave or frustrated Ness players may opt for aerial approaches, but it’ll be rare when they do and completely unsafe against crouch. Dash attack may also come as a mixup occasionally, but due to Ness’ running speed it’s never anything too scary.

As stated earlier, most of WFT’s defense will play like her offense, using superior mobility to get in and out and using SS pokes to slow Ness down/push him away. WFT’s pivot ftilt is great as always, and foxtrotting to change direction at any moment is always recommended. Other than that, Ness plays so fundamentally solid that for the most part you’ll really just be trying to read what he’s going for and trying to cut his options down with SS. As with offense, if you get enough space, header setups are great as they offer poking tools that can be used from a range where SS would normally just be absorbed or shielded on reaction. The biggest difference in Defense and Offensive play for WFT will be her usage of DB. When playing on offense, DB is good for building up damage, and bringing your kill percents much closer. On defense it should be used to throw off Ness' own kill percents. It will raise bthrow's kill percents by 15-20% forcing Ness to either wait out the buff, or risk not killing you and staling his kill move.

Once Ness gets you in the air, he has some very powerful aerials to cause all sorts of mayhem. Uair is incredibly powerful and is strong enough to kill you from SH height around the same percents bthrow will begin killing. His preferred option in the air however, is PK Thunder, which while not as powerful as his aerials, is still damage, and can be generally safe damage due to the ability of the Thunder’s tail in providing a decent hitbox. Ness gets quite a few kills here by harassing opponents with PKT and then striking himself into PK Thunder 2 just as they reach the ground in attempting retaliation. You can fight against this in several ways, two of which I’ve found particularly effective. The first is simply reseting to neutral. Even if you have to go offstage, it’s not a terrible position if it means you make it back to the ground without getting hit. The second is in using b-reversed SS in conjunction with fast falling to reach the ground. Upon landing, fire at will. If he catches on and tries to use PKT2 you will either beat it out or halt his momentum for an attempt at punishing him. Alternatively, you could use one of your aerials to beat out PKT and return to the ground during his recovery. This also applies to powering through the tail with reverse fair and going for punishes, but is much riskier for a disproportionate reward thanks to WFT having slow smashes.

In the event that Ness wants to play shark and be there when you land the same thing applies using b-reversed SS’, Header, and DB to shift your momentum and confuse your landing. I wouldn't challenge his aerials if you don't have to.

Spoiler: off stage

When Ness has you offstage, he for the most part treats in like having you above him. PKT is honestly just that good that he can. This can be hell if you lose your jump, but gains a saving grace in that header eats all projectiles that aren’t multihit. This can occasionally be troubling as it’s such a good move to use in covering your return. If you're returning from on high, the same strategy generally applies in that fast falling and using SS to hit him out of it is great, only now header applies without needing a specific distance.

While he certainly has no problem racking up generally safe damage this way, always be wary of a Ness that waits near the edge without using this. Dair which hardly ever comes into play might be brought out, along with any of his aerials including Uair which, again for emphasis’ sake, can kill you at SH height around the percents his bthrow will. You can avoid a lot of this by recovering low as WFT's Uair will beat PKT and come out faster with much less transparency than Dair. If you’re feeling cheeky header can trade with his bair for an unfavorable spike.

When you have nothing else, try to ride the stage as you UpB and be ready to tech if necessary. If you read a ledge trump attempt just hold down as you recover to avoid sweetspotting the ledge until you’re ready. You might also stage spike opponents that release too fast this way or outright gimp him with your own recovery. Not anything to rely on, but it certainly happens. WFT’s ledge game is applicable here just as in every MU, but be wary of PK Fire and run off nair. PK Fire can activate on header and hit it back at you while leaving a hitbox on the edge for some time. It’s not a common or particularly good option, but fsmash is still a reflect and can do the same for double damage and even stronger KB.


When you have Ness off stage, you become the scariest character Ness can face. Wii Fit Trainer loves being offstage, fair hits from below but has knockback that pushes horizontally, bair is a kill move, reverse fair is a spike, dair is a spike(particularly good for airdodge reads) header is a spike and uair comes out fast and does what it needs to when it needs to. SH header comes out quick as per usual and controls that space with no lag(on stage). SS, uncharged or not, travels a ridiculously far distance and has good knockback controlling that space. Charged it becomes a kill move and is the biggest threat to Ness’ mixup with recovering fair. Uncharged it still does the job and presents a decent threat to Ness recovering. Hell, just charging can bait Ness into using PKMagnet. This leaves PKT2. Beyond the passive buff in the new ledge mechanics, PKT2 also gains the ability to hit the stage once and attempt another recovery, and the intangibility on PKT as it first leaves Ness’ body--meaning you can't do things like jump out and get hit by PKT to gimp him. This has made it not only extremely hard to gimp Ness for most characters, but has been getting them killed as well...

Enter WFT. First and foremost, every character should honestly be attempting to ledge trump punish this. If you’re doing it right the worst that will happen is that you get ledge trumped instead, which is not nearly as bad as getting hit with PKT2. Wii Fit Trainer obviously benefits from this with bair being a kill move, and PKT2 having enough transparency to pop DB for an early kill--as if 80%+ wasn’t good enough. This is also really effective for conditioning and forcing early ledge options two of which WFT can cover strongly with her smashes and good timing.

The most crippling aspect of WFT offstage however, is having access to such good projectiles. The obvious advantage of this is that SS and Header can knock Ness out of it before launching, with a charged SS being a kill move. However, there’s an interesting property of PKT2 in that if it comes in contact with an obstacle when traveling, it’s distance is shortened considerably. This makes header and SS ideal for gimping him—something very few characters can do without endangering themselves. The ability to cancel header also means you can just drop the ball on him if you’re not feeling confident in your aim or if you also want to cover the ledge trump option simultaneously. If you see him enter PKT's animation offstage, always try to gimp him using one of your projectiles. Just like Diddy, you should capitalize extremely hard on every opportunity this provides. Don't be afraid to go deep when chasing either. Header recovers fast enough that you can use it in the magnifying glass and still recover if you have your jump.

Spoiler: on stages

Ness isn’t really hurting on any stage as there are no CPs that really hinder his bthrow potential. WFT gets more out of platforms, but having them to cover his head during PKT harassment is annoying as are run off nairs. As all his aerials aside from fair are 1 hit, platforms can be a generally safe place to get a charge too if you'd rather trade that for poking ability or if you're just camping to avoid the throw. Lylat might occasionally mess with his recovery, but WFT doesn't really need the help and it turning can mess with her own projectiles. If anything try to avoid low ceilings (unless you're confident in your ability to kill), close sides (places like Delfino which has walk offs during it's transformations), and straight walled stages(Onett) in order to hurt the ability to double PKT2. He really likes having a flat ground to approach on for grabs, but other than that Ness tends to do well everywhere so give yourself a stage you can move on and take advantage of his slow run speed.

Spoiler: tl;dr

• The Ness MU is based more on the player than the tools because Ness play doesn't use a lot of gimmicks.
• Ness is slow so run around like Sanic fast to bait bad moves. Dodging>Shielding
• Ness doesn't have a good approach beyond dash in shield so look for it and slow him down even more with SS poking.
• DB when you get to back throw percents to make him stale his kill move
• Hit his recovery with your projectiles

MU is probably +0 if not +1 in WFT's favor for such a crippling offstage game.​

 

[Kith]

I had no idea DB made you heavier...

 

[⑨ball]

I had no idea DB made you heavier...

Yep. It's actually all of the Monado Arts in one except jump and speed at a lower multiplier for half the time without the draw backs. Heals and momentum cancels as a bonus.

 

[Pazzo.]

Just a quick Ness disclaimer:

Running N-Air and baited PK Fire still work.

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

*Going a little off topic but..*

What are WiiFit's options when someone is above you on a platform? I know Usmash is a valid option but are there anymore?

 

[⑨ball]

Just a quick Ness disclaimer:

Running N-Air and baited PK Fire still work.

?

*Going a little off topic but..*

What are WiiFit's options when someone is above you on a platform? I know Usmash is a valid option but are there anymore?

This actually is on topic because WFT get's a lot more out of platforms than Ness on many levels so it's not a bad idea to take him there if you've got your platform game down. Most platform stages are also curved stages, so he can't use the double PKT2 as easily. Just beware that Uair. I can't stress it's potency enough.

Anyway Usmash is fine, but isn't worth the lag when you aren't sure it'll hit, or if you aren't at kill percents.

In general, all of her aerials are pretty great due to having such good air mobility and everything but Bair autocanceling at SH height(which is fine since it has a changing hitbox making you hard to hit and is a kill move), having decent recovery time besides. Projectiles are always the safest options but there are three options in particular which present more threat than the others.

The first is Nair our go to aerial for just about everything. SH nairs hit twice preventing perfect shield stuff, do good shield damage and stun and can combo into it self to continue pressure. Remember these should be SH's, you should be just barely poking through the platform and able to FF out of harms way if you predict danger and punish hard. If you want to play a bit more risky, you also have the option for instant full jump nair pressure so you can do things like Nair>fair/r-fair, nair>uair, nair>bair, nair>SS. Which can be really devastating if your opponent is scared to drop shield or doesn't have any options fast enough to deal with her.

The second is SH-Header. Does even better damage and shield stun, but with the added benefit(you know if 23% wasn't good enough) that on hit it has a chance to trip or at higher percents will spike them into the platform if they can not tech in time. Recovers the fastest out of all attack options too and has good string potential.

The third is something that is as far as I know at the moment, a WFT exclusive as far as smash 4 goes and is one of if not the biggest reason to fear WFT on the platforms: Platform cancelling. Using this you can land directly on the platform with your opponent and immediately grab, shield or any of the options she usually has out of it.

 

[SpScarecrow]

Up smash is a hard read. Its kills at good percents but the lag is cray

 

[Macchiato]

****. I wanted to see those. Hope he does well.

But yeah, whenever I watch TK I feel like he's come directly out of 4glory. That isn't to say he's bad, rather the exact opposite in that when you're so much better than your opponent, you tend to play extremely lenient and unsafe with the most absurd hard reads because you know that either you're so much better you can afford to take however they punish you, or you've just got that much of a read on them because they're bad. Which is fine when it works, and is hype, but against other tournament level players it tends to fail more often than not. He doesn't do that with other characters I've seen him use on his stream or on video and it bothers me.

Hey, it's me @ Salad Bowl but I had to make a new account, you said you wanted to see ANTi's Wii Fit, so here it is. It's from sunday at the CT invitational.
Anti vs Trela
http://youtu.be/BCpPq9rdmq8

Anti vs Dulux
http://youtu.be/FW4UMbwdXms

Anti vs Dabuz
http://youtu.be/5me-pcoBpl8

 

[⑨ball]

Yeah I saw a couple days ago when CT first uploaded it. Anti's solid. Way better than what his 3DS videos would have you believe. Hope he sticks with the character. The more people we have playing the character the more data we can gather.

 

[Macchiato]

Yeah I saw a couple days ago when CT first uploaded it. Anti's solid. Way better than what his 3DS videos would have you believe. Hope he sticks with the character. The more people we have playing the character the more data we can gather.

I still question why he didn't use him in the singles bracket in collision. Well at least he used her in the invitation and collisions doubles bracket

Also what's the next character up for discussion?

 

[⑨ball]

I'd like to tackle Sonic if anyone has any good tips or strategies for him. I really don't like the way I've been playing against them. Even when I win I feel like he was in control of the match unless I play the ledge the entire match which is fairly risky.

 

[madworlder]

I don't have anything solid against Sonic, although I'd like to see if Sonic's Homing Attack follows the Header ball, since I know Homing Attack follows Duck Hunt's can.

 

[Fadacious]

I think Link should be discussed next. I've always had massive trouble against Links

 

[Locuan]

Hey guys! We are currently starting discussion on the Wii Fit Trainer match-up on the Marth character board. It would be awesome if you could help us out!

 

[⑨ball]

Niala seriously nailed it if anyone missed their post over on the Marth boards. I'd recommend the read since I don't know when we'll get to the Marth MU.

@ F Fadacious If Link doesn't get covered next, feel free to ask some questions in the FAQ Thread. Especially if you're having trouble in For Glory since this thread will assume tournament level play which is completely different than what you come across online.

 

[Niala]

Niala seriously nailed it if anyone missed their post over on the Marth boards. I'd recommend the read since I don't know when we'll get to the Marth MU.

@ F Fadacious If Link doesn't get covered next, feel free to ask some questions in the FAQ Thread. Especially if you're having trouble in For Glory since this thread will assume tournament level play which is completely different than what you come across online.

Thanks! Would you even say I "Nial"ed it?

I'm with you, actually, I've had a lot of issues with the Sonic MU as well. I don't know how to approach it, his attacks are so fast and so safe it feels very difficult to punish his movement and his movement is insane. I think the only real option we have is to UThrow and get him above us, because coming down we have better aerial mobility and can cover a pretty wide arc with just UAir and Fair. Once he's on the ground I feel like we completely lose control, his approach is so safe and forces us into shield, the only other option I can think of is a fully charged SS probably outprioritizes the roll and can do significant damage. The problem here is that... well when the hell am I gonna get time to charge a SS in this MU? He's constantly running into us with various forms of spinning in circles, and any Sonic that knows the MU will keep on us so we can't do much about it.

I think the problem is that WFT relies on punishing approaches quite a bit, as her approach game is, in and of itself, not the greatest. She can force other people to come at her with her projectiles, and react accordingly, but if a character can hit her shield and she can't punish... Well it's hard to do anything against that. I'll be honest, I use my pocket Rosa for this MU and the tinies (Olimar, DHD, Pika.) I'm just not sure what to do otherwise.

 

[⑨ball]

Never had too much trouble getting a charge myself. B reversals and charge cancels are pretty fantastic in that regard and can get you a lot of free damage for any over aggressive players of any character. My issue is that I need to charge at all in order to zone properly against his options. One of my favorite things about WFT is that when she punishes, she punishes extremely hard dealing crazy damage or outright killing you for a misstep. Sonic's playstyle is so safe, those opportunities come far and few inbetween which drags the match out unless one of us breaks and decides to play the other's game.

When it comes down to it, I'm pretty confident WFT can take this match by time if she plays safe too, but it's just really annoying that beyond landing and ledge traps she can't really punish him too hard without reads. I'm still in the lab looking for something that can put a yellow light on his approach. Been experimenting a lot with the windbox on SS, the absurd strength of utilt and the hitlag on header, but I haven't found anything that lets me play the way I want to...yet.

I've been pleasantly surprised how well WFT can do against DHD and Pikachu compared to my original thoughts upon seeing punishes whiff on their recovery animations. Haven't fought any good Oli's or Kirbys yet but I fear the worst.

Rosalina seems like a good secondary. I can see her covering pretty much any of WFT's bad MU's since she does pretty well all around herself. Especially against Olimar and DHD. That must be hell for them.

 

[Macchiato]

@ Oatmeal.
Ok we're done with ness, now yew can update it. I think we're going on sonic now so yeah

I say we lose this MU 40-60. He can combo us for days and we can't really do much. Sure our uncharged Suns stop the spindash, but he still has other ways to stop us

 

[Kikaioh]

Regarding Sonic matchups, I've found that partially charged Sun Salutations are good for hitting Sonic's spin dash (uncharged seems to go right over him or just stop him, IIRC). For me whenever there's a break in my actions I always take an opportunity to start charging, just because it's very easy to dodge out of and it's generally better to get a partial charge in those instances where it's safe and you can't really do much gameplay-wise (like if you're floating back down to the stage, or you're on the other side of the stage from your opponent a safe distance). I think I've heard that Sonic has a fair amount of landing lag, for some moves at least, so I think those might be good times to attack too. I love nair with WFT because of how mobile it is and how it's easy to hit low to the ground and behind opponents (which I think can link good into her neutralA from her foot if you hit a shield), so I'm thinking that's probably helpful against Sonics too. Uair is also good at the right moments. Dash attacks too, when the chance presents itself, can be good for punishing. Down Smash sometimes is good depending on the spacing. That all said I'm not 100% sure about all that, I've only played about 1500 battles in FG with her so far and I feel there's more for me to learn with her just yet.