Data Now, Let's try it Together: Wii Fit Trainer's Matchup Thread (Trying a New System & Owner Soon)

[ShippoFoxFire]

Don't pick WiiFit in that matchup.
She loses to tiny people (Pikachu, Ness, Duck Hunt, Miis, Olimar, etc..)

Though now matchups may be a lot different and straightforward now that majors are leaning towards banning customs.
PS: If a mod can merge the two posts, accidentally double posted.

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

Assuming nobody has anything else to add to the Wii Fit vs RosaLuma matchup is it cool if we move on to a new character to discuss?

 

[WiiFitBurger]

Don't pick WiiFit in that matchup.
She loses to tiny people (Pikachu, Ness, Duck Hunt, Miis, Olimar, etc..)

Not olimar and ness she can camp olimar and ness isn't that small. She can camp and bait both of them. Ness offstage is easy for wft since that's where she shines. Same with olimar. Header can't be absorbed and its a projectile so it's great.

 

[Oatmeal.]

Assuming nobody has anything else to add to the Wii Fit vs RosaLuma matchup is it cool if we move on to a new character to discuss?

I can get behind this.

How about our favorite pain in the keester, Sheik?

 

[PurpleWeeaboo]

In regards to Rosalina:

Spoiler

-Her down+b has ridiculous range to cancel out projectiles. I've seen instances where WFT's Header momentum cancel out because of her down+b, to where she can counteract and use the Luma to launch it back. It doesn't hurt to throw projectiles at her though. At some points it even heals you!

-The Luma as always is the biggest problem with this character. It can tank two fully charged Sun Salutations for it to start barging. A simple dash/f+tilt however can knock it back significantly. Works great when a Rosalina is hugging the corners of the stage.

-You can actually crouch to dodge her neutral+b plus its jabs (excluding the finishing jab).

-Throw combos (especially up+throw into uair/nair) don't quite work because of the lightness of this character.

-In certain scenarios, Rosalina can dash to duck under Sun Salutation and Header.

Custom Moves:

-Big Header persists after hitting, making you be able to build a wall in between Rosalina/Luma.

-Volatile Breathing can knock back both units while also giving great edge guarding potential.

-Jumbo Hoop is able to catch the Luma and keep it in there until the end of the move. Ending this at the edges of the stage can guarantee Luma being knocked off.

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

So with the Wii U version changing RosaLuma I really think we can hold on on this as it's literally about to change.
With Luma being unable to act while Rosalina is in hitstun I can now actually see this matchup 6:4 wii fit.

 

[Heropon_Riki]

We seen to have covered the Rosaluma matchup pretty well for now, so how about Sheik? I'd be interested in this since they are both my mains, and both have trouble killing (although Sheik much morso than WFT).

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

We seen to have covered the Rosaluma matchup pretty well for now, so how about Sheik? I'd be interested in this since they are both my mains, and both have trouble killing (although Sheik much morso than WFT).

Actually lets discuss diddy, he's might be best character and wii fit trainer does well against him. That might help her metagame

Anti vs Zinoto and Ally
http://youtu.be/Yul5rDqemA4
http://youtu.be/52opV7-nMhs

 

[Kith]

Actually lets discuss diddy, he's might be best character and wii fit trainer does well against him. That might help her metagame

Anti vs Zinoto and Ally
http://youtu.be/Yul5rDqemA4
http://youtu.be/52opV7-nMhs

Lol Anti needs to get his deep breathing down. I love his WFT though

 

[Diabolique]

I don't have much to say on DIddy because I haven't played many, but I gotta say Wario is a pain in the behind for me, what about everyone else?

Not so much the bike that now has a hitbox when he isn't on it (kinda dumb still) but his Bite is soooooo stupidly good. I couldn't seem to get around it at all. He heals on header, he eats Sun Salutation (why?????), and it even hit me through a Fsmash.

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

Sun salutations give him a hard time

 

[Diabolique]

Sun salutations give him a hard time

This is true but he can actually eat them with his neutral B and take no damage. There is a small window of lag after he eats one where you could probably hit him with an uncharged one but if you're far away from him he can block it.

I couldn't find any good OOS options against his air attacks. His lag animation for Dair, NAir and Bair are too low to the ground to grab, Ftilt, or Jab and Dtilt comes out too slow.

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

http://youtu.be/Qql1ERMjghk
Me vs Wizzzrobe

I hope this helps

 

[madworlder]

Discussion is so slow! Diddy doesn't feel too bad, from what I've played. Sun Salutation seems to eat peanuts and bananas pretty consistently, and Diddy has trouble being an idiot in the air against Header and fair. Most of my troubles seem to be due to inexperience, like whiffing nair on Diddy while grounded. It's not impossible, just difficult without having played/practiced enough. I'd have a hard time believing it's anything worse than 5-5.

 

[Niala]

Almost none of Diddy's attacks, including his kill moves, have any ending lag, and WFT already requires a lot of reads for her punish game because of her small hitboxes. Honestly, I think this MU is pretty bad, WFT just can't keep up with Diddy's grab game and pressure. In particular, Diddy can very easily keep WFT above him, which is a position he wants and one she does not want at all.

Ledge camping is really powerful in this MU, though. Header can cover your recovery very well, but the even ground doesn't help WFT as much as it does Diddy. Your best bet is to outrange him with B-air and keep him offstage as much as you can. Approaching in the air is okay, too, as long as you're never above him. Falling through his shield with Nair is okay, as long as you don't land on his front side for a shield grab, because you can push out an ftilt before he can pivot and grab. Sun Salutation once charged is really powerful, too. Goes through both bananas and peanuts, both of which have much higher ending lag than most of his attacks.

tl;dr: Diddy is hard to punish, play in the air, stay below him as much as possible, and outcamp him with SS.

6-4 Diddy.

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

I feel like Diddy might be WFT's worst match-up. Her shenanigans and some of her tools don't really work on him. He can also punish her pretty hard if you whiff an F-smash or D-smash. He out plays us when it comes to footsies and doesn't really have a hard time getting in. U-air strings and use of N-air are viable and encouraged. Jab also works wonders in getting more % on him also the back foot on jab 1 works wonders.

On the projectile side of things I think WFT beats Diddy. While banana does have it's uses, I feel like SS and Header have more. SS being able to go through peanuts and bananas is a great thing. While Header only goes through peanuts it does allow WFT to do some ledge shenanigans and allows for her to return to the ledge/stage safely (most of the time anyways).

tl;dr: Diddy outclasses WFT in almost every area aside from projectile game making him a real pain in the ***. You'll be working a lot harder for the kill than usual so be prepared for frustration.

Agreed with above^^
6-4 Diddy :s


ASSUMING nobody has anything else to add, let's move on to Sheik. Man we really gotta step it up lol

 

[ChivalRuse]

What are WFT's best kill options? I can beat people up, but don't know how to finish them off.

 

[PurpleWeeaboo]

Ftilt, Uair, Dair, Header, Dsmash, Sun Salutation (with Deep Breathing).

I'll get to posting about Sheik when I have the time to test somethings out.

 

[crisspy727]

Replace Dsmash with Usmash since Dsmash is more of a gimp set up.

 

[ChivalRuse]

If you're hitting someone offstage, fair and bair will probably do as well as dair anyway, so I won't count that.

What is header exactly? I'm not used to all of this new character terminology .

 

[xx99]

If you're hitting someone offstage, fair and bair will probably do as well as dair anyway, so I won't count that.

What is header exactly? I'm not used to all of this new character terminology .

Header is WFT's side-B.

While we're on the topic, her up-B is Super Hoop, her neutral-B is Sun Salutation (SS), and her down-B is Deep Breathing (DB).

 

[ChivalRuse]

And her side-B can legitimately be used for KOing? I've seen it stage spike, but I didn't realize it had more than minor knockback.

 

[crisspy727]

And her side-B can legitimately be used for KOing? I've seen it stage spike, but I didn't realize it had more than minor knockback.

It's a really strong spike it sent's them into a angle they can't recover unless you have a great recovery like Villager if you could use the ball the gimp them it has multiple uses.

 

[xx99]

Yeah, the ball can definitely score a kill with a gimp or against an opponent with lots of damage, but when somebody calls Header a kill move, they're talking about hitting the opponent with your head instead of the ball.

 

[Oatmeal.]

Alright, we can get started on Sheik. I think Diddy's had enough time.

Edit: If anyone has a better pun for the title I'd be glad to hear it. I just don't think "remember to keep breathing" fits the bill.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah, the ball can definitely score a kill with a gimp or against an opponent with lots of damage, but when somebody calls Header a kill move, they're talking about hitting the opponent with your head instead of the ball.

Didn't know that. I'll have to experiment with it.

 

[⑨ball]

Alright, we can get started on Sheik. I think Diddy's had enough time.

Edit: If anyone has a better pun for the title I'd be glad to hear it. I just don't think "remember to keep breathing" fits the bill.

Let's Step Up The Intensity.

P90X

Get [insert character name] Fit..ting in a bodybag

Do you even lift?

Edit: Also I'll drop a mini post for Diddy later since I just got back. I should have the Sheik one done already.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Can WFT crouch under Sheik's f-tilt/fair? That's the most relevant aspect of the matchup, imo. I have to test.

 

[⑨ball]

Edit: @ ChivalRuse Ftilt I'm not sure about ftilt, but fair definitely. Crouching really puts a damper on characters that rely on sh game.

----

Does anyone know all that was changed with Sheik?

I've got some stuff on her, but I know that at least some of it is inaccurate after the patch.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Imagine how huge being able to crouch under f-tilt would be. I'll have to write a sticky note to myself to check when I'm home.

 

[crisspy727]

I know this is off topic but I was playing some matches against FOW's Bowser Jr and UpB seems like a perfect edgeuard if they are coming low and you hit them with Super hoop while he's out of the kart.

 

[Shinuto]

I kinda want to ask for Link or Yoshi at some point, but I'll wait for Sheik to run her course...

 

[Oatmeal.]

Edit: @ ChivalRuse Ftilt I'm not sure about ftilt, but fair definitely. Crouching really puts a damper on characters that rely on sh game.

----

Does anyone know all that was changed with Sheik?

I've got some stuff on her, but I know that at least some of it is inaccurate after the patch.

This is taken from a thread listing all the patch changes, didn't want to quote the guy because I know how annoying it is, and this doesn't involve them anyway:
SHEIK
FAIR

DAMAGE : 6.8% ⇒ 5.5%
SOURSPOT DAMAGE : 6% ⇒ 4.8%​

UAIR

NUMBER OF HITS : 5 ⇒ 4
DAMAGE : 8% ⇒ 7%
(4% HIT) KNOCKBACK GROWTH : 155 ⇒ 138​

NEEDLE STORM

ENDING LAG : Increased​

BOUNCING FISH

KNOCKBACK GROWTH : 100 ⇒ 90
BASE KNOCKBACK : 30 ⇒ 26​

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

From my experiences vs shiek matches, WFT has a hard time dealing with Shieks Rushdown.
The issue though is Shiek has an INSANELY hard time killing WFT as she is extremely agile and recovers very low. Shiek will have to go for the stage spike which is risky.

With Shiek unable to close a stock with ease, we're now on the knockback train of Rage and Deep Breathing. Shiek going in for attacks can easily die from a Bair, Uair, Ftilt, and F/Usmash. Shieks who like to maneuver over you can really get stomped by WFT's USmash. Your Projectile is super important in this matchup for controlling space.

I honestly thing the matchup is even, as Shiek is unable to confirm her kills against WFT.

Stages to Ban/Strike: Final Destination, Town and City, Duck Hunt
Stage to Counterpick: Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Battlefield

 

[⑨ball]

Sweet. Looks like I don't have many changes to make.

SO some small updates since I last posted.

• RosaLuma V WFT is 5/5. The loss of reverse fair really hurts, but not so much that it puts it in their favor as everything else still holds.

• At this point everyone should be familiar enough with the game that I don't need to go as indepth about other characters' normals. You should know things like Robin's grab pummel having an area effect and things of that nature. As such the info drops'll be a lot more concise/compressed.

Spoiler: Diddy

I missed the discussion on Diddy so I'm adding a tiny bit just for completions sake.
Diddy is strong. We all know this by now. A really strong showing and the terror of Uair has more people on his bandwagon than RosaLuma making him the #1 contender for top tier right now. That said, all of this talk of him "being the new MK"(which is absurd in the first place) or broken is rubbish. Don't be afraid of him he's got his flaws and weaknesses too.

On Offense WFT doesn't worry Diddy too much onstage. With no shield stabbing move, he actually prefers to be on defense so he can land a shield grab down throw to uair. SH aerials are also pretty good at keeping up a wall which is why this is a MU you must take advantage of WFT's incredible movement. Weaving in and out to bait moves, Diddy should never see you approaching and have a good idea what you're going to do and any preemptive action on his part should always be punished hard.

Up close you really want to take advantage of her jab game. Attacks beat grabs and we know that's what Diddy wants more than anything. Her's in particular can punish spotdodges phenomenally well and is pretty safe on shield if you don't finish out the combo. Using the max range of her tilts is an always. You'll be surprised what you can get away with when you do. Grab attempts should mainly be punishes as he gets a lot more off of them than we do easier, but using rollcanceled pivots to aim for his back is fantastic. If you have to use any smash, I always recommend going for Dsmash below kill percents. You want Diddy offstage and the angle on dsmash is great for gimping. As always, use your air mobility to aim your attacks for opponents backsides. If you're landing an equal amount of punishes WFT actually racks up damage twice as fast as Diddy. Keep his grab in mind, keep him above you when you can, keep him honest and on his toes with projectiles, and keep him offstage.

On Defense WFT can really become a threat for Diddy. SS beats his projectiles easily and cancels into shield meaning she's got far too many options for anything beyond a really good read to cover consistently. Header also beats his projectiles and can control a good amount of space with no lag. Pivots, B-reversals, slide delays, Foxtrotting, dash dancing, and general good movement in air and on the ground makes it really dangerous for Diddy to chase her so stay as mobile as possible. Frustrate them into making risky plays that you can punish. Don't forget crouching either. It'll duck under things his usual SH game and give you ample time to punish OoS if he commits to dropping it on her tiny hitbox. I'm pretty sure he can grab you out of it being such a short character, but it's fairly risky seeing as her hurtbox changes when standing making crouch>jab a really good option if she reads the attempt or even the dash in shield/airdodge bait. Crouching also wrecks his command grab, it will whiff for tons of lag leaving only the command kick available which you can pretty much render moot by shielding as soon as he gets close enough to the ground. Alternatively you can challenge this with header. It will almost always be in your favor to trade and you should look to do this in your offstage game. Diddy actually has a hard time killing, but benefits immensely from rage so this MU really comes down to having a good understanding of both of your options in every situation. If you're knocked into the air, use your momentum changers to confuse your landing. Going off stage is better than landing on him with a half-hearted attempt at catching him off guard. DB should be saved for offstage game and defensive play. Switch gears often to keep your opponent off balance. Stay mobile, stay crouched, stay zoning.

For Stages WFT and Diddy share a lot of strength when it comes to stages. Both of you enjoy platforms, because killing vertically is good option for you both. However, Diddy outclasses our own Uair and while our Usmash will kill much earlier, we have to commit much harder for it to land. You both also don't mind FD/Omegas because being so speedy means you can chase people who go into the air and be there when they land. You trash Didds in the projectile department and have a lot less to worry about in recovering so with those in mind you want to aim for stages that give you a lot of space to maneuver, and stages that will mess with Diddy's recovery. This makes Lylat Cruise a good option. Otherwise go for stages with high ceilings to hamper uair kills or stages that change often forcing him into the air during things like transformations if they're legal.

Customs are as usual nearly all viable, (hoop hurricane is pretty whack). Just keep in mind the way you want to play the MU and what they offer you.

Sun
1 Range uncharged + Space and damaged charged
2 Space uncharged + Damage and Range charged
3 Range uncharged + Space and Healing charged

Header
1 Lagless SH space control + offstage sniping +recovery cover + ledgeplay
2 Lagless space control(general) + huge hitbox offstage + onstage shield + high angle space control on and off stage
3 Ground control + damage + low angle stage sniping

Breathing
1 all around buff for play
2 edge guarding + onstage space cotrol
3 8 second clutch play + best healing

Hoops
1 Go deep
2 Best(only) shield pressure option + best damage
3 Gimmicks

Overall, Diddy is going to be a tough fight that will always keep both players on edge. Reverse fair was a huge loss to our offense game, but her defense is still just as strong and will play a big part in the MU along with her zoning and offstage game. A lot of people earlier suggested WFT might be a counter for Diddy, but sad to say I don't think that's the case between players of equal skill. This MU could go either way at anytime.
5/5
​

Nobody does rushdown in Smash 4 like Sheik. Her ability to get in and out tacking on damage and pressure is fantastic and is one of the reasons you'll see her a lot in competitive play. Her strengths and weaknesses are both very pronounced making her one of the most balanced characters in the game. She's certainly high tier, as in the hands of a talented player she can be a nightmare, but seeing as rest is an important part of staying fit, we have to make sure to exercise our own tools and make sure she doesn't sleep on WFT.

On Offense WFT is extremely dangerous to a light character to like Sheik. While Sheik tends to rack up damage by tacking on little hits here and there by keeping pressure on, WFT drops bombs with every success. This is particularly noticeable when landing nairs which can easily go from 0-30 and 30-90. Not a good look for a character as light as she is. Coupled with grabs(specifically Tomahawk grabs), that can do up to 11dmg with no follow ups, WFT is an extremely dangerous character for her to misread. Trades are hardly ever in her favor and she can be outplayed offstage, something Sheik is not used to when up against the other high tiers (sans maybe Robin).This is amplified by having a much stronger ledge trump game. Sheik should be terrified to grab the ledge with you waiting on stage. Jabs as usual are really powerful up close, she doesn't have any really strong OoS options, and being able to crouch her grab means that your reads will land you harder more damaging hits. She doesn't have many options when you're below her that don't amount to gambles or running away. All of that said, Sheik has two very strong tools in her arsenal which can ruin an over confident player. The first is needles, you can duck them and generally shield on reaction but they absolutely kill momentum and that's all it takes for a match to turn into the Sheik show as she has unparalleled acceleration. The other is her recovery speed. Whether it's being able to dash into shield or having no lag on her bnb aerials, you're going to find that Sheik doesn't just hand out opportunities to punish her. She'll make you work for every hit and every grab and every modicum of pressure, but when you get it, you'll be rewarded handsomely.

On Defense Wii Fit Trainer can be Rosalina and Luma levels of annoying to Sheik. First off you win the zoning war hands down. Trades are not in her favor, needles have tons of cool down, do less damage, microcharge worse, can be ducked regardless of charge, don't cancel into shield, don't travel as far, aren't really an option in the air, and don't ever become a kill move at any reasonable percents. If she wants to play that game, please do. Burst grenade has it's uses here and there, but is certainly the cause of more of her deaths than kills at high level play. Beware SS detonating it on you and you should be fine. This only leaves Sheik going in as a real option for building damage and killing. However, crouching limits so many of her usual options that it's really hard on a Sheik player beyond reads. Most importantly, WFT can crouch her grab and SH game. This forces her to commit in every approach and risk getting shield grabbed or worse. Btw those approaches while crouched boil down to basically FF-nair and delayed fair for aerials, dash attack(lol), and walk up attacks that hit low. Seeing as crouching also acts as a crouch cancel, this makes it even harder for Sheik to kill than it would have been for her besides.

Speaking of killing, Sheik has 3 ways she generally gets the job done: gimps--which should be fairly difficult against a character like WFT, Uair--which was nerfed and should also proof hard to land against a character with so many options in the air, and the infamous bouncing fish -- which also got nerfed. Gimps are more about players being outplayed than characters tools being better so I can't offer much advise other than be willing to challenge her when you can, and be aware of your own tools to throw the player off. Uair tends to be a followup rather than an outright move, and with her grab neutered by crouching it should see much use in the MU, make sure to DI any grabs she lands on you to avoid it. Bouncing fish for all it's complaints in the community isn't all that bad, it serves the same purposes as Brawl MK's shuttle loop, and has all of the same weaknesses. On stage, you've got quite a few options against it. First off Usmash, and seeing as it will kill her before 100%, you should look for these opportunities. Crouching also lowers your hitbox low enough that it becomes unreasonably difficult to land. Spotdodging(which you can do out of crouch, SS and DB) is the way to make it highly punishable. Otherwise shielding is fine as Sheik has to input an attack before she regains control, and having two speedy projectiles certainly helps in this regard. Offstage Sheik will be looking for her chance to land this and so should you. Your obvious option seeing this is to spotdodge and go for a punish which is certainly safe and respectable. If you want to play dirty however, you can challenge it with header. BF is not invincible and can trade and be beatout by other hitboxes. This is not a trade she ever wants. Finally beware her recovery. Vanish is her pocket ace in terms of kill moves having tons of knockback and stage spiking pretty easily when it doesn't outright kill.
​

Stage wise Sheik likes platforms more than you do, but she doesn't have any particular advantage over you; she just likes having more options from them. You're a weightclass above her so low ceiling stages like Halberd are pretty neat, and you also don't suffer as much from janky stages that mess with recoveries so it's well worth it to keep Lylat Cruise in mind.

​

Customs are all fair game here and will probably be more attuned to your opponent's style than the actual character.

Reccomended Set:
2212

Suns
1  Better  range uncharged +better spotdodge catching charged
2 Better space control uncharged + better damage and kill potential charged
3 Better shield pressure running behind + better heal charged

Headers
1 Better zoning + offstage sniping and horizontal recovery coverage
2 Better onstage pressure and stage control + large offstage hitbox and with jump low recovery coverage
3 Better shield pressure + offstage low angle snipes and kill potential

Breathings
1 All around buffs
2 Better edgeguard
3 Better healing and clutch

Hoops
1 Lets you go far deeper than she can and recover from just as low if not lower
2 Lets you hit much harder OoS + offstage carry
3 Lets you troll much harder than just crouching all match

Overall it appears that Sheik needs to exercise. We hit harder, throw farther, jump higher, crouch lower, live longer, kill quicker and look better(kappa). Yet,even with all of that Sheik still has too great of a neutral to suggest something as concrete as a counter. I might be giving Sheik players too much credit here, and I suppose with time we'll be able to accurately decipher just how bad the MU is between players of equal skill, but for now I'm calling it near even with a slight advantage to WFT.
5.5/4.5

(reverse fair would have easily made it 6/4)

 

[SuaveChaser]

I have been losing this match up alot i always get out ranged or rushed down very quickly and i can usually only get in a few hits and follow ups and a luckly Fsmash or Dsmash from time to time. I can rarely land grab on shiek.

 

[⑨ball]

Outspaced maybe, but Sheik doesn't have any disjoints on her attacks as far as I'm aware so you shouldn't ever be getting outranged by Sheik.

Try using your projectiles to slow Sheik's momentum down. Her dash into shield is amazing but the most important aspect of using them is to put out a hitbox she has to deal with so you break her momentum and put her into situations where she has to do something you predict or get hit.

Because Sheik loses the projectile war you're at a semi-advantage during neutral. You know what she wants. Either to hit you with an attack(most likely fair) or grab you. Use this knowledge to get your own hits and grabs. It's also fair game to completely shirk that and outzone her the entire game granted you can out maneuver her.

Smashes on all characters are usually laggy, but this is especially true of WFT as a tradeoff for having good trajectories on double sided attacks or heavyweight class power on a speedy character. Use them with heavy intent as opposed to just for throwing out a hitbox.

Getting grabs on any character, Sheik included always boils down to catching them doing something they shouldn't have been doing against you. Sheik is a fragile speedster, built for getting in and getting out and preventing just that, which is why you have to strip away her options and force her into a position where you can punish her. Think about it from Sheik's perspective and what moves would make you do what, and when she does those things, get your punish of choice.

 

[SpScarecrow]

I feel like inexperienced Sheik players go for Bouncing Fish because it's safe on shield. Cause that to whiff and you get a free follow up. I've had success with sun salutation mixups with header. The issue is fair and the lag of RAR bair.

 

[Salad Bowl]

Heyy @ Oatmeal.

Can you put all the MUs in the OP. Like put the important quotes there so we don't have to look through the pages for a MU

 

[Oatmeal.]

Heyy @ Oatmeal.

Can you put all the MUs in the OP. Like put the important quotes there so we don't have to look through the pages for a MU

That's right, I said I would do that....

I can probably get to that tomorrow or so.