Not doing anything about mii

[19_]

The worst part is, the backlash probably wouldn't even be relevant to the amount of people still playing default and not using Miis. I think the only characters close to as underused as Miis are Olimar, Wii Fit Trainer, Pac-Man, and Duck Hunt.

You'd be wrong about this as these kind situations have subtle but lasting effects. Meta knight stay legal in brawl really hurt the scene cause from outside the community things like "tiers are for *****". Definitely hurt the perspective of the scene to outsiders. This situation would be worse though because many people inside the scene that are uncaring about miis would be like "did they really just do that?" and just leave, let alone the people who pushed for it.

It would be a scare not worth baring.

 

[Antonykun]

Since we've got a bunch of Mii mains here, which characters are most similar to the Miis in playstyle? I think ZSS is the closest to Brawler and Samus is closest to Gunner, but Swordfighter seems to have no one particularly close. Pit? Lucina? I have no idea. I need help solidifying my For Glory characters ^-^

Design wise Swordfighter is Link with a hint of Marth or Ike here and there well at least as normals go specials are all over the place

Jab Links
F-tilt original (i could argue its like his f-smash which is inspired by marth)
up tilt Links
Down tilt Marth
F-smash Marth (it's more of an inspiration rather than a straight 1:1)
Up smash Links
Down Smash Every Swordfighter not named Robin or Shulk
N-air Ike
F-air Links (it's a stretch i know)
B-air Ike
Up air Links
Down Air Kirby?!

 

[wizrad]

Roy's Fsmash is almost exactly like Swordfighter's, I think. Is Villager a lot like Gunner? Fair is Fair, Lloid is Missiles, Bair is... also Fair?

 

[W.A.C.]

You'd be wrong about this as these kind situations have subtle but lasting effects. Meta knight stay legal in brawl really hurt the scene cause from outside the community things like "tiers are for *****". Definitely hurt the perspective of the scene to outsiders. This situation would be worse though because many people inside the scene that are uncaring about miis would be like "did they really just do that?" and just leave, let alone the people who pushed for it.

It would be a scare not worth baring.

Here's the huge difference. MK was the most popular character in the game. You ban MK, you alienate a huge portion of the smash community. You restrict Mii's to 1111 and it alienates a minority of players. Many players, such as Mew2King, wouldn't have enjoyed Brawl anywhere near as much without Meta Knight.

 

[wizrad]

Meta Knight was a very different situation. Brawl was a very different situation. M2K, however, is the same. He loves Brawler. And I love M2K.

 

[Raijinken]

The backlash would not be major because so few players play Mii's, though that's partially because of the current limitations. I would have some interest in Mii Gunner if it weren't for the limitations placed on the character. Tiny Mii Gunner became considerably more fun after 1.10 came out. Not to mention many people who are anti-customs are against Mii's being allowed to have anything besides 1111.


Exploding Balloons was affected by the nerf? Are you sure? I heard that move was completely unaffected from the patch.


Samus comes closest to Mii Gunner's play style, but unlike Mii Gunner, she sucks in this game. She is absolutely not worth playing outside of character loyalty. Infuriates me she is so bad in both Brawl and Smash 4 when she was so good in the E3 demo for Smash 4.

I went and tested it before I even posted, just to make sure I wasn't insane. Feel free to double check.

Design wise Swordfighter is Link with a hint of Marth or Ike here and there well at least as normals go specials are all over the place

Jab Links
F-tilt original (i could argue its like his f-smash which is inspired by marth)
up tilt Links
Down tilt Marth
F-smash Marth (it's more of an inspiration rather than a straight 1:1)
Up smash Links
Down Smash Every Swordfighter not named Robin or Shulk
N-air Ike
F-air Links (it's a stretch i know)
B-air Ike
Up air Links
Down Air Kirby?!

His Fsmash is a bit more like Roy's now, though obviously it's Roy that came later. The lack of sweetspot makes the comparison perhaps more accurate of Lucina, or even Smash 64 Link, than Marth.

Dair is a bit like all drill moves, though since his has the downward spike-like behavior Kirby's is probably the most similar.

As for specials, two of them are so blatantly inspired by the Tales series that it's a bit of a wonder they didn't throw Cress/Lloyd/someone in there at launch.

Honestly, at this point I could almost stand having 1111-2222-3333 options on Miis.

Gunner can go all over the place but 1111 isn't really bad (especially since the grenade nerf). I think generally all that nobody wants to run is Laser Blaze and Arm Rocket. Stealth Burst isn't exactly useful either.

Brawler can do fine with 2222 and some players prefer that, 2122 being marginally better in a handful of circumstances. 1111 leaves you with a terrible recovery and perhaps the worst down-B in the game, as well as the lack of setups resulting from not having Helicopter Kick or Piston Punch.

Swordfighter is in a rougher spot, though. 1111 sticks you with terrible recovery and a side-B even worse than Jolt Haymaker for self-destructing, and Counter is always situational at best. 2222 sticks you with Shuriken of Light (basically trash), Slash Launcher (not bad but certainly not good when compared to just playing Ike), Skyward Slash Dash (pretty bad), but at least you get Reversal Slash to handle obvious projectiles or high and unsafe recoveries. 3333 is probably the best of those, with Power Thrust being passable (if not preferred over counter or reversal slash) and Sword-Rain-I-Mean-Blade-Furry working similar to Shield Breaker in some ways.

 

[Unknownkid]

Design wise Swordfighter is Link with a hint of Marth or Ike here and there well at least as normals go specials are all over the place

Jab Links
F-tilt original (i could argue its like his f-smash which is inspired by marth)
up tilt Links
Down tilt Marth
F-smash Marth (it's more of an inspiration rather than a straight 1:1)
Up smash Links
Down Smash Every Swordfighter not named Robin or Shulk
N-air Ike
F-air Links (it's a stretch i know)
B-air Ike
Up air Links
Down Air Kirby?!

F-air is Kirby's Fair because you can cancel just like Kirby's.
I feel like Up Smash is more like Pit.

Everything else I will agree with.

 

[wizrad]

Is SF more like Link or Tink?

 

[W.A.C.]

Meta Knight was a very different situation. Brawl was a very different situation. M2K, however, is the same. He loves Brawler. And I love M2K.

In general, M2K is a player that typically isn't in favor of bans. He wishes all the smash games had more legal stages.

I went and tested it before I even posted, just to make sure I wasn't insane. Feel free to double check.

Huh. I'll check it out sometime.

 

[Unknownkid]

Is SF more like Link or Tink?

Both. Depending on the size.

 

[Pazx]

THIS, THIS, THIS.

It is important to remember that top players are NOT OUR ENEMY. I believe having miis restricting there specials to one moveset is too much but there to be a better middle ground. I love the idea of mii being forced to use one moveset per set with guest mii's only.

1. You can't COUNTERPICK special moves
   
2. The character can still played the way the player feels most comfortable with
   
3. Guest mii's only make it easier for logistics and matchup knowledge

We NEED to have some sort of compromise.



You CAN ask to make a gentlemen agreement to use mii's other moves. Some people would be against it though of course, but there were MANY times that people agreed with me on customs, so Im guessing the would be many more willing gentlemen mii specials. Make sure to ask in your location bar though.

Why shouldn't Miis be allowed to change specials mid-set? How is that different to me switching from Pit to Dark Pit after game one? If we go with your suggestion, am I allowed to switch from Mii Brawler to Pit after game one? Can I switch from Brawler to Gunner after game 1? Why can't I switch from 2122 to 1122 Brawler? Changing specials should be considered the same as changing character, if that is the case there is no problem.

I get that you think compromise is going to make the most people satisfied but the rules you're proposing don't make sense and will be met with resistance from both pro-mii and anti-mii players.

 

[Raijinken]

Why shouldn't Miis be allowed to change specials mid-set? How is that different to me switching from Pit to Dark Pit after game one? If we go with your suggestion, am I allowed to switch from Mii Brawler to Pit after game one? Can I switch from Brawler to Gunner after game 1? Why can't I switch from 2122 to 1122 Brawler? Changing specials should be considered the same as changing character, if that is the case there is no problem.

I get that you think compromise is going to make the most people satisfied but the rules you're proposing don't make sense and will be met with resistance from both pro-mii and anti-mii players.

I agree, placing special swap in the procedural position of a character swap makes the most sense in all cases. If you won, you risk running a reflector or absorb against a character with no projectile. If you lost, that's a swap you were allowed to make anyway.

This does bring up the valid concern of whether or not players can make Miis between rounds in a set. I'd be inclined to require the Miis to be set up in advance or transferred from a 3DS to minimize the time impact on the set itself. You could cap a player on the number of Mii setups they're allowed to pre-prepare, as a logistical safeguard. In a game where most players don't run more than three characters, I wouldn't think capping each player at three Miis to be an undue logistical rule. Mostly because I can see a worst-case scenario where two Mii players in a bo5 jump into each round with a completely new Mii setup based on their opponent's pick and counterpick.

 

[19_]

Why shouldn't Miis be allowed to change specials mid-set? How is that different to me switching from Pit to Dark Pit after game one? If we go with your suggestion, am I allowed to switch from Mii Brawler to Pit after game one? Can I switch from Brawler to Gunner after game 1? Why can't I switch from 2122 to 1122 Brawler? Changing specials should be considered the same as changing character, if that is the case there is no problem.

I get that you think compromise is going to make the most people satisfied but the rules you're proposing don't make sense and will be met with resistance from both pro-mii and anti-mii players.

While I agree with most of your post:
1. the argument about (Dark) Pit makes sense but consider that miis are much bigger beast. Pit only changes 2 of his specials while mii can change all of them.

This does bring up the valid concern of whether or not players can make Miis between rounds in a set. I'd be inclined to require the Miis to be set up in advance or transferred from a 3DS to minimize the time impact on the set itself. You could cap a player on the number of Mii setups they're allowed to pre-prepare, as a logistical safeguard. In a game where most players don't run more than three characters, I wouldn't think capping each player at three Miis to be an undue logistical rule. Mostly because I can see a worst-case scenario where two Mii players in a bo5 jump into each round with a completely new Mii setup based on their opponent's pick and counterpick.

See, this is the kind of thing we want to avoid. Let's NOT give TOs something else to hassle with. We already have top players against us, lets have a set of rules that are easy for TOs to understand and does not slow setup time to a snails pace. I DON'T want this to end up the way customs did.

If you can counterpick to other miis, locked movesets per set will put an auto lock mii creation to 3 miis only. Though that could still be an issue... have to think about that one.

2. I guess my compromise is more geared more to freedom of the moves, but the only thing I think I can see being a better compromise is locked sets sort of like coney's suggestion. The problem is you'd have customs situation where people get locked out their preferred sets again. I guess 2 or 3 sets per mii would better than one to yelp of set this a bit (2 sets per mii could definitely be a thing using the pit argument). It would still cause problems though, I mean you can't universally decide this.

I still think we should still be a good short term solution to make better locked sets than 1111. *The Tantalus the TO of Xanadu is all game.

*check my previous post

 

[MVD]

I can talk to you about it at BH5 if you want.

ok

 

[wizrad]

Where's Chibo? He could refuse to stream tournaments that don't have rulesets that have a way for a Mii to use sets other than 1111.

 

[Pazx]

While I agree with most of your post:
1. the argument about (Dark) Pit makes sense but consider that miis are much bigger beast. Pit only changes 2 of his specials while mii can change all of them.

Most tournaments allow you to change characters mid-set though, I don't see what your point is.

If after game one as Pit I switch to Dark Pit: 2/4 special moves changed, 3 total moves changed. This is allowed.

If after game one as Pit I switch to Sheik: 4/4 special moves changed, all 25ish total moves changed. This is allowed.

If after game one as Mii Brawler (2122) I switch to Mii Brawler (1122): 1/4 special moves changed, 1 total move changed. You don't (?) think this should be allowed, despite being a smaller change than both of the other examples.

Even if let's say I switched all 4 of my special moves that is only 4 moves and a small fraction of a total moveset. Can you please explain your resistance to the concept of treating different Miis as different characters because I really don't see how locking them into a certain moveset solves anything. Not letting them change sets ("characters") puts them at a counterpick disadvantage in situations where our current rulesets should favour them (eg. Gunner using Reflector against Samus, loses, Samus player switches to Marth and Gunner is unable to change down special to Bomb Drop because... Reasons? Keep in mind that in this exact situation the Gunner player is completely free to change to a different character, and the Marth/Samus player knows this).

 

[GeneralLedge]

I think the argument is a visual problem more than logistical. Which is fine, but not really any more valid.

Switching from Pit to Dark pit, visually (and audibly), there's a difference available so that even the youngest of spectators know it.

The solution would be to use the assortment of hats and clothes to better determine what moveset any Mii has at any given moment.

Or if you want to get super fancy, we could settle on a selection of character names and appearances for the create-your-character characters. Instead of haphazardly use default visuals for each of them.

I mean, we have six guest Miis who are presumably the same size, accompanied with several hats and at least four cloth pieces (unlocked by default?) for each class. There shouldn't be any trouble deciding on obvious visual differences, and circulating them so they're broadly known.

We do that, and there's no flaw. Of course, it falls on us to accumulate this.

 

[Ghostbone]

Idk, light dark pit and "dark" pit are pretty confusing tbh.
Every tried to play doubles and keep track of which pit is which? lol.

Arbitrarily restricting the miis to 2 sets each is more arbitrary than using 1111 lol.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Well I misremembered and it's only three clothes per fighter by default.

Still, six guests times three clothes times 8+ hats equals 144+ visually unique personas... For each class. (I'm not sure exactly how many hats are unlocked by default, though)

I think that's probably enough? Although if we're being super narrow about visual differences, I don't think Miis "need" more than six sets a piece (one per guest), except maybe Sword. But I think we could manage.

Now we just need goofy names for each Guest Mii of each class.

 

[19_]

Well I misremembered and it's only three clothes per fighter by default.

Still, six guests times three clothes times 8+ hats equals 144+ visually unique personas... For each class. (I'm not sure exactly how many hats are unlocked by default, though)

I think that's probably enough? Although if we're being super narrow about visual differences, I don't think Miis "need" more than six sets a piece (one per guest), except maybe Sword. But I think we could manage.

Now we just need goofy names for each Guest Mii of each class.

Can we avoid making this complicated for TOs please. They won't deal with kind of thing.

Most tournaments allow you to change characters mid-set though, I don't see what your point is.

If after game one as Pit I switch to Dark Pit: 2/4 special moves changed, 3 total moves changed. This is allowed.

If after game one as Pit I switch to Sheik: 4/4 special moves changed, all 25ish total moves changed. This is allowed.

If after game one as Mii Brawler (2122) I switch to Mii Brawler (1122): 1/4 special moves changed, 1 total move changed. You don't (?) think this should be allowed, despite being a smaller change than both of the other examples.

Even if let's say I switched all 4 of my special moves that is only 4 moves and a small fraction of a total moveset. Can you please explain your resistance to the concept of treating different Miis as different characters because I really don't see how locking them into a certain moveset solves anything. Not letting them change sets ("characters") puts them at a counterpick disadvantage in situations where our current rulesets should favour them (eg. Gunner using Reflector against Samus, loses, Samus player switches to Marth and Gunner is unable to change down special to Bomb Drop because... Reasons? Keep in mind that in this exact situation the Gunner player is completely free to change to a different character, and the Marth/Samus player knows this).

My point is that locked movesets per set simplifies free miis not just for players but for TOs as well. Mii creation will be at least be locked to 3 sets which saves time. I don't care if it is arbitrary as long as YOU CAN AT LEAST PLAY THE CHARACTER I'm good.

 

[Ghostbone]

Locked moveset per set doesn't really make sense though (as has been stated, you can change characters, why not moves >.>)

You should choose your moves when you would normally choose your character. Just don't let people make new sets in the middle of a match because it wastes time.

Though yea, I don't care about this as much as just having them selectable rofl.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Can we avoid making this complicated for TOs please. They won't deal with kind of thing.

Not trying to over-complicate it, just trying to think of a way to make things more obvious for the less educated crowd, so counter-picking a different moveset doesn't cause an influx of crying.

Obviously the most straightforward way would be to make the char when needed, but they don't know that.

If we need to hold their hands, we'll hold their hands.

 

[Raijinken]

Idk, light dark pit and "dark" pit are pretty confusing tbh.
Every tried to play doubles and keep track of which pit is which? lol.

Arbitrarily restricting the miis to 2 sets each is more arbitrary than using 1111 lol.

Dark Light Pit is the most irritating thing to try to distinguish.

Anyways, the thing about restricting created Miis on a player level is that it's not arbitrary - it has a logistical reason that makes sense, and can be scaled to suit the timetable of the tournament (an extremely strict tournament could limit it to one per player or use a Moveset-Project-like pre-loaded list of the most popular, small tournaments could let players do as they please). Limiting them to 1111 is, however, arbitrary, in the sense that it's a player-, and not game- or logistics-, based rule.

 

[MVD]

Where's Chibo? He could refuse to stream tournaments that don't have rulesets that have a way for a Mii to use sets other than 1111.

yeah hes totally gonna pass up making money for streaming an event for something like that

 

[wizrad]

It can go both ways. The tournaments that don't bend won't get streamed. They'll lose exposure and money, too. It's a simple modification to the ruleset that actually effects very few. TOs would feel Chibo's wrath and relent.

 

[W.A.C.]

It can go both ways. The tournaments that don't bend won't get streamed. They'll lose exposure and money, too. It's a simple modification to the ruleset that actually effects very few. TOs would feel Chibo's wrath and relent.

Yeah, because TO's are really going to want to hire Clash Tournaments if they refuse to stream their tournament because of a disagreement about Mii's. :|

 

[Pegasus Knight]

As far as stepping out to make a new Mii mid-set goes: No, no, HELL NO. I say this as a Mii supporter. No. It's a huge hype-killer.

When you get to the station to play your set, inform your opponent "I need like 2 or 3 minutes to create the Miis I'm likely to use." Do it quickly. Make the ones you're confident you'll likely play during this tournament, memorize the menu layout so you have it done as soon as possible. Spending 2 or 3 minutes ONCE to make all the Miis you'll be using the entire tournament is okay. Wasting time backing out of the select screen, going back through the menus, finding the Mii option, and then making another Mii is unacceptable; it's inconsiderate of TOs and your opponent, and the audience to boot; nobody wants to watch you clumsily go back through menus!

So when you show up, make your Miis and stick to it. Or 3DS transfer them, having pre-made them at home. Anything else is unreasonable. We need to do our best to minimize our impact on tournament logistics and mood-killing.

 

[wizrad]

No one else seems to care enough about Miis to do anything about it. Every poll I've seen is in Miis' favor, but no one ever does anything. Big name players and tournaments (the minority) are against it, so small local tournaments are, too. We need to make a stand somehow. We need support. We need something.

 

[Raijinken]

No one else seems to care enough about Miis to do anything about it. Every poll I've seen is in Miis' favor, but no one ever does anything. Big name players and tournaments (the minority) are against it, so small local tournaments are, too. We need to make a stand somehow. We need support. We need something.

Support just seems to be too scattered, geographically. I'd support any event running a ruleset I like if the nearest wasn't four hours from me. The New England area is probably a bit luckier in this regard as a result of population density, but even then I don't seem to hear about events running Miis or whatever.

 

[wizrad]

I can't travel far, and all of the tournaments I've seen run 1111 guest. Admittedly, that's not many, school etc., but still.

 

[W.A.C.]

Why not just have a bunch of Mii's already setup before hand like they were for the custom moves project and in the rare circumstance someone wants to use a different setup, they can create one.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I think the opposition to that idea was "it is more work for TOs"... which I admit it is, and am sympathetic to. We've been trying to shoulder as much of the work ourselves as possible.

 

[Myed]

Posted in the wrong thread, sorry.

 

[Ian Viola]

Posted in the wrong thread, sorry.

Ya blew it

 

[wizrad]

I agree that setting up Miis should be the responsibility of the Mii players. I'm also starting to agree with just allowing guest Miis, it does make things easier. That said, I'd still prefer sizes. Specials are the issue where we cannot budge. That's where we should be focusing.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I'm actually curious as to what the issue with 3DS Transfer would be. It's not a constant, ongoing thing or easily reactivated like a Wiimote sync to the system is (so "it's wireless" doesn't seem like a valid concern here). If the player is willing to haul along their 3DS copy of the game, why not let them do the transfer to save time and allow variable sizes/outfits this way?

 

[Ian Viola]

I'm actually curious as to what the issue with 3DS Transfer would be. It's not a constant, ongoing thing or easily reactivated like a Wiimote sync to the system is (so "it's wireless" doesn't seem like a valid concern here). If the player is willing to haul along their 3DS copy of the game, why not let them do the transfer to save time and allow variable sizes/outfits this way?

But what if they find the only Mii player without a 3DS

 

[Raijinken]

But what if they find the only Mii player without a 3DS

Then they're stuck either using a default or finding someone else who has one.

 

[wizrad]

But that's unfair, completely unlike banning or restricting three unique characters for "not being real"!

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

The lack of sweetspot makes the comparison perhaps more accurate of Lucina, or even Smash 64 Link, than Marth.

Incorrect; the Mii Swordfighter's FSmash does indeed have a sweetspot of sorts. The closer the foe is to the tip of the blade, the more damage it deals.

Edit:

As for specials, two of them are so blatantly inspired by the Tales series that it's a bit of a wonder they didn't throw Cress/Lloyd/someone in there at launch.

Only two? I count:
Blurring Blade = Sword Rain
Airborne Assault = Tempest
Chakram = Ray Thrust/Ray Satellite
Stone Scabbard = Eagle Dive
Power Thrust = Ultra Sonic Thrust