Not doing anything about mii

[W.A.C.]

I wish some of the more controversial customs hadn't soured customs for so much of Smash 4's competitive scene. It created a massive mess. -_- Perhaps one day they might bother to fix a lot of the controversial custom moves and Mii's, which receive actual balance changes, might be able to become viable characters again. But a lot of the community has the mentality that if characters like Dr. Mario can't change specials so he isn't competitively worthless, why should Mii's get to be viable characters? It's really unfortunate, as they have much to bring to the meta and custom moves don't even need to be enabled for Mii's to be able to choose their specials.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

lol yall are cute, if Miis become legal, well then there are just more ppl for me to beat, its pretty simple. I stand by my opinions and im sorry if they hurt your feelings, that'll happen at times tho in life.

Tall claims from someone who didn't win Evo. Not that I'm winning Evo either, but I'm also not posturing about who I am and am not beating. 'Might makes right' determines placement in a tournament, it does not entitle you to be a jerk to others.

If it's 'more people to beat, pretty simple' then you should have no problem, and should in fact openly support, Mii legality. It means more entrants and thus more prize money to win.

'Sorry if they hurt your feelings' - Why, yes. You are hurting my feelings by trampling on my fun with your patronizing attitude, contradictory behavior regarding the characters I want to play, and mocking use of "<3" and "lol cute". I find this odd, since I never did anything to hurt you or justify this.

 

[NegaNixx]

So I think I have a solution that whether we like it or not will solve the problem.

We get TOs to pick this up and whatever happens we stick to it. It at least can put us all on equal grou instead of just having the elite decide. Whatcha think people?

Too democratic. A large part of the reason democracy works out is because a large number of the uninformed simply don't vote. This gives everybody a vote by putting it in front of their face. Gives one sample size if we use only genesis. which is a miniscule fraction of the community. And there's very few proper debate going on, and few actually pay attention to it. It doesn't put us on equal ground. It just makes it more publicized. Poor idea IMO. Unless I totally misunderstood it.

 

[Vinnie]

Tall claims from someone who didn't win Evo.

Pegasus knight confirmed 13 and never attended a tourney b4

Also if yall aren't happy with 1111 and would rather have them banned, the only people to blame for the extinction of miis are yourselves. Want to be treated like an actual character? Then have a default 1111 moveset. Otherwise, you aren't an actual character. Everyone's customs deserve to be banned, you aren't special.

 

[NegaNixx]

Pegasus knight confirmed 13 and never attended a tourney b4

Also if yall aren't happy with 1111 and would rather have them banned, the only people to blame for the extinction of miis are yourselves. Want to be treated like an actual character? Then have a default 1111 moveset. Otherwise, you aren't an actual character. Everyone's customs deserve to be banned, you aren't special.

Fun Fact: My middle name is actually Special. I am, in fact, Special. (Insert Self-Depreciating joke about me being Sp-Ed.)

On topic. The Miis are treated as exceptions to the rule by the game in the state we play it. (Customs: Off). The Miis are also actual Nintendo Characters specializing in Party Games. And have more game appearances than some other characters in the game.

Having a default 1-1-1-1 rule set is not a legitimate reason to be called a character. It's quite arbitrary in fact. It's like being called a fraud artist because you can use paint and everyone else has crayons. The logistics have been shown to work out. EVO and the tourneys in preparation for and the few currently going on that allow "full" Miis run smoothly. Importing had been shown to be quick. We don't have to allow custom moves for other characters for them to be accessible, logistics can ban those so there's a legitimate argument for when the slippery slope everyone's talking about comes true. None of the Miis are shown to be unbeatable or remotely broken. The only thing I can see is that it goes against the way things are. That's not a reason, that's clinging on to tradition and hiding it under the guise of fairness.

Adding Miis takes nothing away from top level play, adds 3 characters, and is balanced in accordance to the rest of the cast (see balance patches, previous results.)

There's absolutely nothing wrong with these characters and nothing logistically wrong with letting them take advantage of what the game lets them use.

 

[AEMehr]

Pegasus knight confirmed 13 and never attended a tourney b4

Also if yall aren't happy with 1111 and would rather have them banned, the only people to blame for the extinction of miis are yourselves. Want to be treated like an actual character? Then have a default 1111 moveset. Otherwise, you aren't an actual character. Everyone's customs deserve to be banned, you aren't special.

My apologies that my character was designed to be given the ability to use a variety of special moves to my preference as opposed to being given bonus specials so people can try to customize the rest of the cast in a similar way.

Mii Fighters are designed like this, they aren't any less of "real" characters because of a different design choice. I don't see you not calling Ryu a "real" character because he has two variations of his side and up special and three of his neutral one that are accessible at all times. Don't let the "Mii" branding kid yourself into thinking that these characters aren't worth anyone's time.

It's super easy to regulate these things with the use of Guest Miis to keep the consistent 50% height and weight. The only thing stopping it from actually happening is people being super uninterested in learning new matchup knowledge when against a minority in the playerbase. It's super selfish and it's definitely poor reasoning to call another character "not real" when they are clearly presented on the game's boxart, promotional material, in-game menus, and even have official licensed figurines being sold of them. They are "real" characters and are balanced accordingly.

If we must deal with characters like Sheik, Zero Suit, Rosalina, etc. we should be allowed to use Mii Fighters as designed because they are still nowhere near top 5 level (though Brawler could be if he were short).

 

[thehard]

Who Said It?

"play a weal character"

☐ A top-level tournament player
☐ A day 1 FG scrub

Click next to see how you did...

 

[Pegasus Knight]

. I don't see you not calling Ryu a "real" character because he has two variations of his side and up special and three of his neutral one that are accessible at all times.

It's actually more significant than that. Each of his different button presses for these specials counts as a different move for purposes of stale moves penalty. In other words, it's really easy for him to keep multiple 'unstaled' kill-capable Shoryukens ready to go while still having an invincible move to blow through predictable attacks. Jank! Jank! Jank! (Ryu is now banned, because I have said the magic word three times. Sorry, Ryu mains)

It's super easy to regulate these things with the use of Guest Miis to keep the consistent 50% height and weight.

And at this point I would be willing to roll with that. I'd prefer true design freedom on size and appearance, but I'd be willing to give 50-50 size a try via Guest Miis if TOs were really not swayed by the logistical help we've offered on this.

The only thing stopping it from actually happening is people being super uninterested in learning new matchup knowledge when against a minority in the playerbase.

I can't think of many other tournament environments where top players are allowed to collude to design the rules favorable to keeping them on top with the least effort possible. If I had tried that in any of the DCI-organized tournaments I used to compete in, I would have been banned.

It's super selfish and it's definitely poor reasoning to call another character "not real" when they are clearly presented on the game's boxart, promotional material, in-game menus, and even have official licensed figurines being sold of them. They are "real" characters and are balanced accordingly.

Incidentally, Amazon agrees. I tried to get them to refund my money for the Mii Fighter Amiibos I bought, informing them they were 'not real characters'... Amazon's customer service representative seemed baffled by this claim, but insisted I would not be getting a refund unless I could present a real flaw in the product I purchased. I asserted said product actually didn't exist, that it was "not real"; they did not accept this line of reasoning, something about certification numbers for the toys...? Whatever.

If we must deal with characters like Sheik, Zero Suit, Rosalina, etc. we should be allowed to use Mii Fighters as designed because they are still nowhere near top 5 level (though Brawler could be if he were short).

To be fair, most of their arguments do not revolve around what 'tier' the Miis are. Their arguments have focused on 'what is fair.' While a handful of them have not been consistent on this front, most of them have. They are consistently wrong, but they are indeed consistent.

It's a shame the typical Smash community is acting this way. It looks weird to see the conventional FGC, which pretty much openly looks down on this crowd, to be making better, more inclusive, more fun rules-sets for Smash.

 

[AEMehr]

To be fair, most of their arguments do not revolve around what 'tier' the Miis are. Their arguments have focused on 'what is fair.' While a handful of them have not been consistent on this front, most of them have. They are consistently wrong, but they are indeed consistent.

It's a shame the typical Smash community is acting this way. It looks weird to see the conventional FGC, which pretty much openly looks down on this crowd, to be making better, more inclusive, more fun rules-sets for Smash.

People think the characters are broken, and they're not. That's what I'm trying to say.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Pegasus knight confirmed 13 and never attended a tourney b4

Smash 4, the game where you actively bully your competition until it doesn't compete.

I would like to take a moment, and ask if you think of yourself as the "good guy". I'm curious.

If 'he started it' comes to the tip of your tongue as an answer, is it a mature, adult, justified one?

 

[wizrad]

So, what we've discovered here today is that MVD is a troll (big surprise coming from a former Duck Hunt main) and that Vinnie is upset that Sheik has custom specials and not alternate specials. Good work, everyone!

Edit: Props to Vinnie for actually fully formulating an opinion instead of whining, "Miis are different, ban them!". Well.. that is kind of what he said, but he wasn't that much of a child about it.

 

[Raijinken]

I wish some of the more controversial customs hadn't soured customs for so much of Smash 4's competitive scene. It created a massive mess. -_- Perhaps one day they might bother to fix a lot of the controversial custom moves and Mii's, which receive actual balance changes, might be able to become viable characters again. But a lot of the community has the mentality that if characters like Dr. Mario can't change specials so he isn't competitively worthless, why should Mii's get to be viable characters? It's really unfortunate, as they have much to bring to the meta and custom moves don't even need to be enabled for Mii's to be able to choose their specials.

Miis should be able to because if something as nonsensical as a game toggle is why Doc isn't allowed to, then that very reason declares that Miis are allowed to.

But obviously, all characters should be able to select their optimal form. We can't all be Sheik.

And man I love this attitude from reputable players. I can't wait to grow up and be like them.

People think the characters are broken, and they're not. That's what I'm trying to say.

From the current tier-list discussion thread, to be taken with the obvious grains of salt.

5:

6:

7:

8:

Miis aren't considered broken. Like 100% of other custom moves, they have neither been given representation nor results to suggest they are a fraction as relevant as, from the same list,
1:

2:

3:

 

[NegaNixx]

I learned from a variety of teachers that Ad Hominem, Strawman, Appeal to tradition, and Appeal to Authority/Majority, are all wrong ways to form a debate.

Apparently the Smash community does not agree. Sigh.

Apparently the only ones who get a say are the ones who can use these methods correctly then they get to bully those against the status quo.

This community is messed lol.

 

[r_greening1]

Why's it so hard to let people play the game? smh

 

[Auramaniji]

Tall claims from someone who didn't win Evo. Not that I'm winning Evo either, but I'm also not posturing about who I am and am not beating. 'Might makes right' determines placement in a tournament, it does not entitle you to be a jerk to others.

If it's 'more people to beat, pretty simple' then you should have no problem, and should in fact openly support, Mii legality. It means more entrants and thus more prize money to win.

'Sorry if they hurt your feelings' - Why, yes. You are hurting my feelings by trampling on my fun with your patronizing attitude, contradictory behavior regarding the characters I want to play, and mocking use of "<3" and "lol cute". I find this odd, since I never did anything to hurt you or justify this.

Puts on twitter
https://twitter.com/Grimmleal/status/648046348357513216
Nawwww...
Yall' are cuter
With your twitter arguments and such.
It's too much for me to handle.

Btw prize money? I ain't here to win, just to have a good time. I don't have to bend my back for top players to get their way.

 

[Ian Viola]

You're not allowed to talk about Mii legality on the NC Smash 4 page anymore lol
Too many people saying 1111/banned was unfair and then being told thats what the nation is doing, until it changes deal with it

 

[Auramaniji]

You're not allowed to talk about Mii legality on the NC Smash 4 page anymore lol
Too many people saying 1111/banned was unfair and then being told thats what the nation is doing, until it changes deal with it

I dare you to cross the line. Say "what nation are you talking about? It can't be the US because we still have plenty of people fighting for Mii"

 

[Raijinken]

I dare you to cross the line. Say "what nation are you talking about? It can't be the US because we still have plenty of people fighting for Mii"

Our mods don't care. 1111 is allowed in our PR, but one of our biggest tournaments just bans them because hardly anyone (read: only the above Ian Viola ) uses them in a tournament setting, and in 1111, why bother?

They refer to "the majors". And last time someone asked for a list of majors banning Miis, let me see if I can find that response....

New Tournament Player: "What nationals have miis been outright banned in?"
TO/PR Boarder: "1111 Miis are the general norm, and they're allowed for PR'd tournaments in North Carolina. We just don't run them at Meteor Smash because no one plays them anyway and some people find that 1111 Miis are a distasteful and arbitrary ruling for both Mii and non-Mii players."

Earlier in this response he criticizes Ian and I for having "made a habit of regularly trying to beat this dead horse."

It's still laughable. They refer to the majors but still run 3s8m. At least they're aware of their hypocrisy.

 

[W.A.C.]

Miis should be able to because if something as nonsensical as a game toggle is why Doc isn't allowed to, then that very reason declares that Miis are allowed to.

The point made is that to many players, anything that isn't 1111 should be considered customs. Some characters are flat out not competitively viable with just 1111. So why should a character like Dr. Mario remain unviable while the Mii's get a free pass? I'm fully in favor of allowing Mii's to have their specials, but a lot of people are flat out unsympathetic because so many players hate custom moves and the mere idea of custom characters. Their mentality is players should just pick a character that's only good in 1111.

But obviously, all characters should be able to select their optimal form. We can't all be Sheik.

And man I love this attitude from reputable players. I can't wait to grow up and be like them.

While I support re-legalizing custom moves and allowing Mii's to have all of their specials, there are some customs that are just flat out bad game design that leads to some questionable gameplay in a meta that has been radically changed from balance patches...all while customs keep getting ignored in patches. Until the balancing team makes some of the customs rebalanced to better fit the current meta, customs are as good as dead. The only real exception are Mii's, whose specials have been receiving direct balancing adjustments. So that gives me hope Mii's have some sort of chance in the future, especially considering how their specials are treated differently from any other character in the game and were designed to be customization characters.

Mii's represent the best out of customized specials and it would be a real loss to put them in the arbitrary 1111. No real thought went into which specials deserved to be placed at which number. I feel the same way about Palutena whose default specials do not flow well with the character or the other specials, but she's completely screwed unless custom moves have a massive revival. Considering how 1.10 buffed so many characters, a lot of characters like her and many others would be extremely viable right now if customs were re-legalized. But hey, I guess we could just enjoy a future metagame dominated by Shiek, Pikachu, and ZSS, with Rosalina invalidating several characters of their viability at majors.

It's also worth mentioning that with 1.04, Diddy Kong's dominance in the meta was hurt by customs, which massively helped support for the customs legal movement. But people seem considerably less bothered by a Shiek dominated meta for some odd reason. But unlike Diddy Kong, Shiek is flat out scarier with customs enabled and Pikachu with customs prior to 1.10 was potentially the best character in the game. So this brought into question whether or not is the game more balanced with customs enabled. I'd say it was definitely more balanced in 1.04, but the changes to 1.06 left a huge question mark. Take Sonic for example. In 1.04, I feel both hammer spindash and the regular spindash were about equal in terms of how good they were. But after the regular spindash got hard nerfed in its damage output, suddenly nearly all the American Sonic players flocked primarily to just hammer spindash because it was suddenly flat out better than the regular spindash. Worst part of this is after customs died, it became apparent Sonic's meta in vanilla became stagnant beyond belief in the U.S. with 6WX being one of the only Sonics to get notable results post-customs because he regularly utilized all three of Sonic's spindashes instead of just one. ****ing patches...

 

[Raijinken]

While I support re-legalizing custom moves and allowing Mii's to have all of their specials, there are some customs that are just flat out bad game design that leads to some questionable gameplay in a meta that has been radically changed from balance patches...all while customs keep getting ignored in patches.

I think this, in particular, is a notable example of a disconnect between the community, textbook play-to-win mindsets, and Sakurai.

Customs have been affected in balance patches. Minimally, but affected (more than Jigglypuff). Almost all customs patches have been to remove infinites, which (along with numerous other things like the regrab timer) indicates that Sakurai and the dev team consider these sorts of things to be degenerate.

Everything else is a matter of the community deeming something "unfun" when, from a textbook play-to-win stance, these are entirely irrelevant to competitive play. Villager and Sonic can spam and camp. We have ruleset ways to change this, or we can accept it as valid (y'know, the side effect of our self-infliced time-with-stock ruleset that breaks ties by percent) rules, and if those characters happen to perform well, we could grow up and deal with it instead of blanket-banning the good and the "bad."

This is a bad side effect of our competitive community being extremely grassroots worldwide for fifteen years. We know what we think is "fun", "unfun", "fair", "broken", etc. When we have to grasp at straws to justify rule changes or bans, it's a sign that things need to be re-evaluated.

And thus, with the sole exception of standardizing Mii size to 50/50 in order to ensure practice and tournament parity across all systems, I don't think it reasonable to impose additional limits on Miis when the game makes no effort to do so itself. They are unique characters with unique moves (which is more than I can say of any create-a-character I've heard of outside of Smash), and warrant neither banning nor limiting.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

So, wait. I'm supposed to be interested in a 'democratic vote' now? Now, more than ever, I absolutely believe these so-called 'top players' would pull a Kim Davis and disobey the vote if the result was 'legalize Miis'.

They're now resorting to Twitter harassment. That's the kind of entitled, elitist behavior we now see from 'top players.'

It's no wonder Nintendo was so loathe to have anything to do with them. I see now they were very, very right to be cautious. Also no wonder the mainstream FGC looks down on them.

 

[Antonykun]

a while ago i read thread made by @Amazing Ampharos how the smash community wants to succeed it needs to stop the huge amount of in community fighting that post was met with 130+ likes and now here we are with in the same in-community fighting.
One of the absolutely biggest flaws of this community's grassroots system is that there really isn't a centralized ruleset and even if there was, venues can simply ignore that ruleset. Because of this people can have wars over the slightest things.

TBH I still don't fully grasp the anti-Mii hatred i can understand things like logistic and stuff but once you start uttering the J-word (jank), you lost me. This is a community that refused to ban Brawl Meta Knight but refused yet it is so eager to make a far more complex ban? This is not the first time Mii mains and supporters get harassed and bullied nor will it be the last time.

srry that was just me rambling

 

[wizrad]

How can we convince Anther (or whoever's in charge of Anther's Ladder lol) to take the handcuffs off of Miis? If I can't take my skills to tournaments, I'd at least like to test my mettle there. But no. 1111 guest.

 

[Antonykun]

How can we convince Anther (or whoever's in charge of Anther's Ladder lol) to take the handcuffs off of Miis? If I can't take my skills to tournaments, I'd at least like to test my mettle there. But no. 1111 guest.

go to nintendojo

 

[wizrad]

Customs or nah? Because their last customs season had four people in it and the standard ruleset just says "Mii Fighters are legal".

 

[Raijinken]

a while ago i read thread made by @Amazing Ampharos how the smash community wants to succeed it needs to stop the huge amount of in community fighting that post was met with 130+ likes and now here we are with in the same in-community fighting.
One of the absolutely biggest flaws of this community's grassroots system is that there really isn't a centralized ruleset and even if there was, venues can simply ignore that ruleset. Because of this people can have wars over the slightest things.

TBH I still don't fully grasp the anti-Mii hatred i can understand things like logistic and stuff but once you start uttering the J-word (jank), you lost me. This is a community that refused to ban Brawl Meta Knight but refused yet it is so eager to make a far more complex ban? This is not the first time Mii mains and supporters get harassed and bullied nor will it be the last time.

srry that was just me rambling

We'd love to stop infighting. Just as soon as they legalize Miis and customs and slightly more liberal stagelists and 3-stock-8-minutes.

Most people don't want to fight. But, just like most non-video-game situations, that's idealistic at best because people want different things. And in this game where there's so much more to want (or not-want), you can't even run the more inclusive ruleset (the one with the fewest bans/off-settings/whatever) without making people mad.

We want to stop fighting by removing the other side, not by magically agreeing. We tried suggesting running both metas in alternation or whatever. Some places are interested, others just aren't. Compromise and coexistance are options that players who side with the status quo don't want.

I'm sure I sound exceedingly biased here, and I do not deny that I am. But I blame the anti-customs/miis players for spitting on our meta, ignoring objectivity, and refusing to allow a compromise where one is possible.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Customs or nah? Because their last customs season had four people in it and the standard ruleset just says "Mii Fighters are legal".

Their non-customs rule list also says "Mii Fighters are legal." The game, with Customs Off, will disable your Equipment (if any) on the Mii Fighter and let them proceed with their chosen size and move list.

This appears to fall under "Ain't no rule saying..." plus "the game clearly allows this", so you have an entirely reasonable basis for playing as whatever Mii you like in their non-customs ladder. If it becomes a problem, it can be discussed then.

Until that time? Off I go to Nintendodojo's non-customs ladder! Hopefully there are plenty of folks to play with.

 

[MVD]

We'd love to stop infighting. Just as soon as they legalize Miis and customs and slightly more liberal stagelists and 3-stock-8-minutes.

Most people don't want to fight. But, just like most non-video-game situations, that's idealistic at best because people want different things. And in this game where there's so much more to want (or not-want), you can't even run the more inclusive ruleset (the one with the fewest bans/off-settings/whatever) without making people mad.

We want to stop fighting by removing the other side, not by magically agreeing. We tried suggesting running both metas in alternation or whatever. Some places are interested, others just aren't. Compromise and coexistance are options that players who side with the status quo don't want.

I'm sure I sound exceedingly biased here, and I do not deny that I am. But I blame the anti-customs/miis players for spitting on our meta, ignoring objectivity, and refusing to allow a compromise where one is possible.

So you wont stop fighting till your demands are met? Cool, thats totally how the situation should be handled

 

[san.]

So you wont stop fighting till your demands are met? Cool, thats totally how the situation should be handled

I can talk to you about it at BH5 if you want.

 

[ZarroTsu]

You know at this point I can't tell sincerity from heavy sarcasm any more.

 

[wizrad]

So you wont stop fighting till your demands are met? Cool, thats totally how the situation should be handled

You're missing the point. His post has little to do with what he wants and everything to do with just that he wants. Everyone wants. We all want what we think is best for this game because we love it and we want to see it be everything it can be. We fight for what we think is right, but we (obviously) don't all agree on what's best.

 

[wizrad]

Their non-customs rule list also says "Mii Fighters are legal." The game, with Customs Off, will disable your Equipment (if any) on the Mii Fighter and let them proceed with their chosen size and move list.

This appears to fall under "Ain't no rule saying..." plus "the game clearly allows this", so you have an entirely reasonable basis for playing as whatever Mii you like in their non-customs ladder. If it becomes a problem, it can be discussed then.

Until that time? Off I go to Nintendodojo's non-customs ladder! Hopefully there are plenty of folks to play with.

(Double posting because I don't know how to add quotes through editing and my iPad keeps crashing so I don't care to figure it out.)

Did you join? It seems dead right now. Tell me how it is, I might jump in if you like it.

 

[19_]

You're missing the point. His post has little to do with what he wants and everything to do with just that he wants. Everyone wants. We all want what we think is best for this game because we love it and we want to see it be everything it can be. We fight for what we think is right, but we (obviously) don't all agree on what's best.

THIS, THIS, THIS.

It is important to remember that top players are NOT OUR ENEMY. I believe having miis restricting there specials to one moveset is too much but there to be a better middle ground. I love the idea of mii being forced to use one moveset per set with guest mii's only.

1. You can't COUNTERPICK special moves
   
2. The character can still played the way the player feels most comfortable with
   
3. Guest mii's only make it easier for logistics and matchup knowledge

We NEED to have some sort of compromise.

(Double posting because I don't know how to add quotes through editing and my iPad keeps crashing so I don't care to figure it out.)

Did you join? It seems dead right now. Tell me how it is, I might jump in if you like it.

You CAN ask to make a gentlemen agreement to use mii's other moves. Some people would be against it though of course, but there were MANY times that people agreed with me on customs, so Im guessing the would be many more willing gentlemen mii specials. Make sure to ask in your location bar though.

 

[wizrad]

The issue is that most anti-Mii people view the Miis' specials as customs, and "customs are jank" so #BANNED. Anything not 1111 is witchcraft.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Signed up but haven't played yet. Busy modifying my Mii roster to be 25-33% height, 0 weight, and selected moves.

I have a lot of Miis. Gonna take a while.

 

[W.A.C.]

I think this, in particular, is a notable example of a disconnect between the community, textbook play-to-win mindsets, and Sakurai.

Customs have been affected in balance patches. Minimally, but affected (more than Jigglypuff). Almost all customs patches have been to remove infinites, which (along with numerous other things like the regrab timer) indicates that Sakurai and the dev team consider these sorts of things to be degenerate.

An overwhelming amount of the changes to customs post 1.04 have been a result of changes to the default moves (Ex: Fox's blaster, Ike's Quick Draw, Pikachu's Thunder Jolt, etc). Then for whatever reason, certain balance changes never carried over such as the added end lag to Shiek's needles and Villager's balloon fuel system.

Everything else is a matter of the community deeming something "unfun" when, from a textbook play-to-win stance, these are entirely irrelevant to competitive play. Villager and Sonic can spam and camp. We have ruleset ways to change this, or we can accept it as valid (y'know, the side effect of our self-infliced time-with-stock ruleset that breaks ties by percent) rules, and if those characters happen to perform well, we could grow up and deal with it instead of blanket-banning the good and the "bad."

Here's the thing about both Villager and Sonic. In the default meta, someone in the balancing team decided to nerf Sonic's spindash and Villager's Balloon Trip, but not nerf Hammer Spindash or Exploding Balloons. This lead to the custom variations going from being debatably equal to their vanilla counterparts (though I've always felt Exploding Balloons was better than Balloon Trip) to both of these moves being flat out better moves. They were balanced to fit the past meta of the game, but not the current meta, which is a huge problem. If we have to implement some sort of difficult to enforce rule on these moves, that is also a huge problem.

This is a bad side effect of our competitive community being extremely grassroots worldwide for fifteen years. We know what we think is "fun", "unfun", "fair", "broken", etc. When we have to grasp at straws to justify rule changes or bans, it's a sign that things need to be re-evaluated.

Community managers and TO's have the most power when it comes to these sort of things because of time restraints, what affects attendance, what hurts viewership, what's best for the health of the competitive scene, etc. Much of the time though, they have the community's best interests in mind. Customs became banned in NorCal and SoCal because of a community vote, not because the community leaders wanted them banned. Like Nanerz from NorCal is against customs, but if the community vote was the opposite of the actual outcome, I doubt him and other community leaders in NorCal would have placed a hard ban on customs.

And thus, with the sole exception of standardizing Mii size to 50/50 in order to ensure practice and tournament parity across all systems, I don't think it reasonable to impose additional limits on Miis when the game makes no effort to do so itself. They are unique characters with unique moves (which is more than I can say of any create-a-character I've heard of outside of Smash), and warrant neither banning nor limiting.

While I agree, so many players are against the idea of any character have customizable specials that Mii's are probably screwed. The support for Mii's to be able to modify their specials among top players is weak compared to the amount of hate toward them and that's going to have a huge impact of their future. If a bunch of top players came together to purposely boycott any event that allowed for customizable Mii's, the future of Mii's are f'ed.

 

[19_]

If a bunch of top players came together to purposely boycott any event that allowed for customizable Mii's, the future of Mii's are f'ed.

If that were to happen than **** it I'm out. I'd never take the scene seriously again. The idea that they would that far to push players out of the community EVEN IF they are the minority disgust me.

Would be the worst thing to happen to this community without a doubt.

The backlash would be real.

 

[Raijinken]

An overwhelming amount of the changes to customs post 1.04 have been a result of changes to the default moves (Ex: Fox's blaster, Ike's Quick Draw, Pikachu's Thunder Jolt, etc). Then for whatever reason, certain balance changes never carried over such as the added end lag to Shiek's needles and Villager's balloon fuel system.


Here's the thing about both Villager and Sonic. In the default meta, someone in the balancing team decided to nerf Sonic's spindash and Villager's Balloon Trip, but not nerf Hammer Spindash or Exploding Balloons. This lead to the custom variations going from being debatably equal to their vanilla counterparts (though I've always felt Exploding Balloons was better than Balloon Trip) to both of these moves being flat out better moves. They were balanced to fit the past meta of the game, but not the current meta, which is a huge problem. If we have to implement some sort of difficult to enforce rule on these moves, that is also a huge problem.


Community managers and TO's have the most power when it comes to these sort of things because of time restraints, what affects attendance, what hurts viewership, what's best for the health of the competitive scene, etc. Much of the time though, they have the community's best interests in mind. Customs became banned in NorCal and SoCal because of a community vote, not because the community leaders wanted them banned. Like Nanerz from NorCal is against customs, but if the community vote was the opposite of the actual outcome, I doubt him and other community leaders in NorCal would have placed a hard ban on customs.


While I agree, so many players are against the idea of any character have customizable specials that Mii's are probably screwed. The support for Mii's to be able to modify their specials among top players is weak compared to the amount of hate toward them and that's going to have a huge impact of their future. If a bunch of top players came together to purposely boycott any event that allowed for customizable Mii's, the future of Mii's are f'ed.

While I acknowledge your points and agree with some of them, it's worth mentioning that Extreme Balloon Trip is subject to the same nerf that Balloon Trip default is (the fuel system). While it affects its recovery functionality (already EBT's weakness), it doesn't impact his planking game because even at minimal fuel it's enough to pop up briefly.

If that were to happen than **** it I'm out. I'd never take the scene seriously again. The idea that they would that far to push players out of the community EVEN IF they are the minority disgust me.

Would be the worst thing to happen to this community without a doubt.

The backlash would be real.

The worst part is, the backlash probably wouldn't even be relevant to the amount of people still playing default and not using Miis. I think the only characters close to as underused as Miis are Olimar, Wii Fit Trainer, Pac-Man, and Duck Hunt.

 

[wizrad]

Since we've got a bunch of Mii mains here, which characters are most similar to the Miis in playstyle? I think ZSS is the closest to Brawler and Samus is closest to Gunner, but Swordfighter seems to have no one particularly close. Pit? Lucina? I have no idea. I need help solidifying my For Glory characters ^-^

 

[W.A.C.]

If that were to happen than **** it I'm out. I'd never take the scene seriously again. The idea that they would that far to push players out of the community EVEN IF they are the minority disgust me.

Would be the worst thing to happen to this community without a doubt.

The backlash would be real.

The worst part is, the backlash probably wouldn't even be relevant to the amount of people still playing default and not using Miis. I think the only characters close to as underused as Miis are Olimar, Wii Fit Trainer, Pac-Man, and Duck Hunt.

The backlash would not be major because so few players play Mii's, though that's partially because of the current limitations. I would have some interest in Mii Gunner if it weren't for the limitations placed on the character. Tiny Mii Gunner became considerably more fun after 1.10 came out. Not to mention many people who are anti-customs are against Mii's being allowed to have anything besides 1111.

While I acknowledge your points and agree with some of them, it's worth mentioning that Extreme Balloon Trip is subject to the same nerf that Balloon Trip default is (the fuel system). While it affects its recovery functionality (already EBT's weakness), it doesn't impact his planking game because even at minimal fuel it's enough to pop up briefly.

Exploding Balloons was affected by the nerf? Are you sure? I heard that move was completely unaffected from the patch.

Since we've got a bunch of Mii mains here, which characters are most similar to the Miis in playstyle? I think ZSS is the closest to Brawler and Samus is closest to Gunner, but Swordfighter seems to have no one particularly close. Pit? Lucina? I have no idea. I need help solidifying my For Glory characters ^-^

Samus comes closest to Mii Gunner's play style, but unlike Mii Gunner, she sucks in this game. She is absolutely not worth playing outside of character loyalty. Infuriates me she is so bad in both Brawl and Smash 4 when she was so good in the E3 demo for Smash 4.