Not doing anything about mii

[Raijinken]

Incorrect; the Mii Swordfighter's FSmash does indeed have a sweetspot of sorts. The closer the foe is to the tip of the blade, the more damage it deals.

Edit:

Only two? I count:
Blurring Blade = Sword Rain
Airborne Assault = Tempest
Chakram = Ray Thrust/Ray Satellite
Stone Scabbard = Eagle Dive
Power Thrust = Ultra Sonic Thrust

Power Thrust in midair isn't very different from Rising Falcon, for that matter.

And yea, I don't think Colette was in my party when not required, and unless I'm mistaken, no sword wielder gets Ray Thrust. But yea, there you have it.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Power Thrust in midair isn't very different from Rising Falcon, for that matter.

And yea, I don't think Colette was in my party when not required, and unless I'm mistaken, no sword wielder gets Ray Thrust. But yea, there you have it.

True about Rising Falcon, except that's already taken by the Mii Brawler's Feint Jump which is a far more blatant ripoff, since it even has the angle right.

 

[Raijinken]

True about Rising Falcon, except that's already taken by the Mii Brawler's Feint Jump which is a far more blatant ripoff, since it even has the angle right.

But that's a kick, not a stab!

Still waiting for Lightning Blade, obviously. The Levin Sword doesn't cut it.

 

[wizrad]

Fellow competitive players, please come support me in the balancing of our game here: http://smashboards.com/threads/not-doing-anything-about-ryu.419232/

Something really needs to be done.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

But that's a kick, not a stab!

Still waiting for Lightning Blade, obviously. The Levin Sword doesn't cut it.

Rising Falcon isn't just from Tales of Symphonia. It's a very common arte in the series, and it and its fire-elemental variant Rising Phoenix have been used by both sword wielders (Rising Falcon: Lloyd, Flynn; Rising Phoenix: Cress, Stahn, Richard, Wingul…) and hand-to-hand brawlers (Rising Falcon: Jude; Rising Phoenix: Senel, Amber). In particular, Feint Jump closely resembles Jude's version of Rising Falcon in Tales of Xillia and its sequel.

I'm not sure it really matters that much if the arte has never been done with that weapon before. Eagle Dive is a kicking attack the way Sophie uses it in Tales of Graces f, but that doesn't stop Stone Scabbard from looking almost exactly like Sophie's version of that arte due to tracing exactly the same path through the air and having very similar timing.

Also, Ultra Sonic Thrust is an arte of Hubert's in Tales of Graces f. It's a Sonic Thrust variant that goes a greater distance and pierces through foes, so it's visually similar to Power Thrust (though Ultra Sonic Thrust is much faster). You could also just say Power Thrust looks like, well, the Power Thrust unison attack from Symphonia, since it definitely does.

 

[Raijinken]

Rising Falcon isn't just from Tales of Symphonia. It's a very common arte in the series, and it and its fire-elemental variant Rising Phoenix have been used by both sword wielders (Rising Falcon: Lloyd, Flynn; Rising Phoenix: Cress, Stahn, Richard, Wingul…) and hand-to-hand brawlers (Rising Falcon: Jude; Rising Phoenix: Senel, Amber). In particular, Feint Jump closely resembles Jude's version of Rising Falcon in Tales of Xillia and its sequel.

I'm not sure it really matters that much if the arte has never been done with that weapon before. Eagle Dive is a kicking attack the way Sophie uses it in Tales of Graces f, but that doesn't stop Stone Scabbard from looking almost exactly like Sophie's version of that arte due to tracing exactly the same path through the air and having very similar timing.

Also, Ultra Sonic Thrust is an arte of Hubert's in Tales of Graces f. It's a Sonic Thrust variant that goes a greater distance and pierces through foes, so it's visually similar to Power Thrust (though Ultra Sonic Thrust is much faster). You could also just say Power Thrust looks like, well, the Power Thrust unison attack from Symphonia, since it definitely does.

Fair enough. My Tales experience is limited to Phantasia, Symphonia (and 2), and Abyss, with small slices of Graces, Hearts, and Vesperia (drawback of only having Nintendo systems). I also play Tales of ACS, but yea.

All that said, still want a Tales character directly. Almost as much as I want Miis to not be artificially handicapped.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Wrote this today and posted it to facebook/twitter. I love taking transit to work, lets me write random ****.

Alright, so I'll flesh out my thoughts with respect to my last status a bit more.

The reason I'm in favour of mii special legality in customs-off is because if we want to decide that an option available under "2/3 stock, 6/8 minutes, no handicap, items off, customs off" is either a) damaging to the meta or b) a significant hindrance to tournament logistics, then we should have thoroughly tested it to prove it.

That's how we developed our stagelists, that's how we developed our stock counts. That's how we developed other "surgical" rules like the ledge grab limit in Brawl, or the starter-only counterpick rule imposed on MK at some Brawl tournaments in southern Ontario. That's how we decided after 14 years to finally ban Hyrule Castle in 64. That's how we decided to ban wireless controllers at majors. That's how we developed Smash as a meta.

Opponents of mii specials, by and large, DO NOT want to do that. They are asking for a blanket ban or arbitrary nerf based on almost no data and bad arguments.

The most popular arguments against mii specials are as follows:

#1: "Nobody else gets to use customs. It's not fair to them."

This is easily the most popular argument against mii specials, and unfortunately its popularity heavily overshadows the fact that it's a horrible argument. What does "not fair" in the context of smash bros even mean? There has been no game in this series' history that did not feature characters having options that other characters don't have. MK vs Ganondorf in Brawl is unfair, but we didn't ban MK for longer than 6 months. Taking Link to Dream Land as Kirby in 64 is unfair, but there's no rule against it. Ice Climbers being two characters in a 1v1 is also an option that nobody else has, and yet nobody except Xanadu Brawl has opted to ban them (in fact the wobbling ban was largely reversed when we all realized it was stupid as a surgical rule - if only history would repeat itself!) Ryu has more attacks at his disposal than any other character in Smash 4, Shulk can literally modify his own properties mid-match, and these are fine despite being unique. In Brawl/Melee, Zelda/Sheik, Samus/ZSS, and Pokemon Trainer all get to literally transform mid-match into characters with entirely new movesets, and nobody batted an eyelash at that. Why are characters with 4 customizable moves that they're locked into per game suddenly a bigger problem that we need to ban because "nobody else can do it"?

And isn't it bizarre how the same people will turn around and say "DLC characters have no customs, so customs tournaments are unfair" is a bad argument? Telling. In fact, the existence of the customs-on meta has been the biggest red herring of all time (sorry Palutena users). Saying "wait, but customs are off, Miis still have them, that's not fair!" is as strong as saying "wait, but this is a singles tournament, that ICs player gets to use 2 characters, that's not fair!" We could give you a level 3 cpu teammate if we really wanted to make things superficially "fair", but that would be stupid since it's missing the point of the ICs character design, just like 1111 misses the point of Mii character design.

#2: "It's a logistical nightmare to set up your character on every setup."

This argument is actually a good one. Speaking as a TO who runs smash 64 tournaments with finicky custom controller adapters, I sympathize with this completely. However, when we made the decision to ban wireless controllers for example, it wasn't based out of gut instinct, unlike mii fighters. We had multiple occurrences of interference with tournament sets to be able to say "okay, this is slowing us down, stick with wired controllers". Once again, no such treatment for mii setup. Furthermore I would like to see if mii setup is any worse than the standard 2 minutes searching for a name -> oh my name's not on here -> time to go make one -> **** I accidentally went back to the title screen -> uh oh the list is full -> hmm who do I delete -> okay what name should I make -> oh crap I forgot to set X to grab.... that we've been experiencing since Brawl and is perfectly allowed. Logistics is a good argument but it needs sufficient data first, which it doesn't have.

#3: "I don't want to learn how to fight 81 combinations of specials."

This is probably the most intellectually honest argument there is against mii specials, but nobody will admit to this reasoning because they don't want to sound lazy. It's fine dudes, this is the most consistent argument you can make against mii specials. Has NA by and large stuck with the vanilla meta because we don't want to learn 81 * 50 something setups, or is it because we mostly don't think the customs meta is balanced based on what seems like substandard testing on behalf of the developers and minimal attention in update patches? If it's the former, then yes, go ahead and keep the 1111 restriction (see argument #5) or ban miis altogether. If it's the latter, keep their specials, because as John#s demonstrated, that happenstance doesn't apply to them and they're being balanced for use in a vanilla meta.

#4: "Developer intent is irrelevant."

Ahh yes, the mantra of every Smash 4 player who tried out Melee once and learned what wavedashing was. Or better yet, the precursor to "if we cared about developer intent we'd be playing with items". First of all, item switch hasn't been a hidden feature since Smash 64. The developer intent has always been to give us a customizable sandbox fighter, which we've gotten in every iteration. The developers might like items better and like Smash as a party game, but that hasn't stopped them from giving us options. That's why we can turn items off and don't have to say to each other "okay guys, remember, you're not allowed to pick up items". The latter is an example of a surgical rule, you know, those complicated things we only add to the meta when something proves to be an issue not solvable by the game settings.

Furthermore, the vanilla meta has received more fine-tuning and balance patches from the developers, and is also the more popular metagame. I'm sure it's just a coincidence and intent really is irrrelevant.

#5: "1111 is composed of the first options for their creation in the UI, so they should be treated as defaults."

Oh wait, I'm sorry, whatever happened to "developer intent is irrelevant"? This is a good argument for a default moveset IF we can demonstrate that mii specials ought to be banned, but on its own is a weak pro-ban argument. The game's UI is not a stronger argument than its settings functionality or its metagame balance.‎

At the end of the day a lot of this comes down to preference and "I don't want to learn the full matchup" vs "I don't mind learning the full matchup". That's why it would have made more sense all along to let the game decide what's legal first under the settings in the "Rules" menu that we provide, and ban it later if it proves to be a problem. That's a method backed up by Smash's entire history. ‎If there is a case to ban mii specials, then the way it should have happened would be for opponents to provide the data for it or make compelling arguments for it. Instead the status quo has been to ban something we had no business banning in the first place, and none of the evidence supporting their legality is enough to overcome the emotional arguments from opponents.

Full disclosure: I'm a Jigglypuff main. I do not play Mii in any capacity, or even enjoy fighting vs their specials, but I can't in good conscience side myself with the anti-specials side when their arguments seem very poor to me.‎

‎
Addendum: These are not arguments in favour of lifting the ban. They're reasons why pro-ban arguments are bad. For as much as the pro-ban side likes to tout "consistency", consistency would have been putting the onus on the pro-ban side in the first place.‎

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Wrote this today and posted it to facebook/twitter. I love taking transit to work, lets me write random ****.

Alright, so I'll flesh out my thoughts with respect to my last status a bit more.

The reason I'm in favour of mii special legality in customs-off is because if we want to decide that an option available under "2/3 stock, 6/8 minutes, no handicap, items off, customs off" is either a) damaging to the meta or b) a significant hindrance to tournament logistics, then we should have thoroughly tested it to prove it.

That's how we developed our stagelists, that's how we developed our stock counts. That's how we developed other "surgical" rules like the ledge grab limit in Brawl, or the starter-only counterpick rule imposed on MK at some Brawl tournaments in southern Ontario. That's how we decided after 14 years to finally ban Hyrule Castle in 64. That's how we decided to ban wireless controllers at majors. That's how we developed Smash as a meta.

Opponents of mii specials, by and large, DO NOT want to do that. They are asking for a blanket ban or arbitrary nerf based on almost no data and bad arguments.

The most popular arguments against mii specials are as follows:

#1: "Nobody else gets to use customs. It's not fair to them."

This is easily the most popular argument against mii specials, and unfortunately its popularity heavily overshadows the fact that it's a horrible argument. What does "not fair" in the context of smash bros even mean? There has been no game in this series' history that did not feature characters having options that other characters don't have. MK vs Ganondorf in Brawl is unfair, but we didn't ban MK for longer than 6 months. Taking Link to Dream Land as Kirby in 64 is unfair, but there's no rule against it. Ice Climbers being two characters in a 1v1 is also an option that nobody else has, and yet nobody except Xanadu Brawl has opted to ban them (in fact the wobbling ban was largely reversed when we all realized it was stupid as a surgical rule - if only history would repeat itself!) Ryu has more attacks at his disposal than any other character in Smash 4, Shulk can literally modify his own properties mid-match, and these are fine despite being unique. In Brawl/Melee, Zelda/Sheik, Samus/ZSS, and Pokemon Trainer all get to literally transform mid-match into characters with entirely new movesets, and nobody batted an eyelash at that. Why are characters with 4 customizable moves that they're locked into per game suddenly a bigger problem that we need to ban because "nobody else can do it"?

And isn't it bizarre how the same people will turn around and say "DLC characters have no customs, so customs tournaments are unfair" is a bad argument? Telling. In fact, the existence of the customs-on meta has been the biggest red herring of all time (sorry Palutena users). Saying "wait, but customs are off, Miis still have them, that's not fair!" is as strong as saying "wait, but this is a singles tournament, that ICs player gets to use 2 characters, that's not fair!" We could give you a level 3 cpu teammate if we really wanted to make things superficially "fair", but that would be stupid since it's missing the point of the ICs character design, just like 1111 misses the point of Mii character design.

#2: "It's a logistical nightmare to set up your character on every setup."

This argument is actually a good one. Speaking as a TO who runs smash 64 tournaments with finicky custom controller adapters, I sympathize with this completely. However, when we made the decision to ban wireless controllers for example, it wasn't based out of gut instinct, unlike mii fighters. We had multiple occurrences of interference with tournament sets to be able to say "okay, this is slowing us down, stick with wired controllers". Once again, no such treatment for mii setup. Furthermore I would like to see if mii setup is any worse than the standard 2 minutes searching for a name -> oh my name's not on here -> time to go make one -> **** I accidentally went back to the title screen -> uh oh the list is full -> hmm who do I delete -> okay what name should I make -> oh crap I forgot to set X to grab.... that we've been experiencing since Brawl and is perfectly allowed. Logistics is a good argument but it needs sufficient data first, which it doesn't have.

#3: "I don't want to learn how to fight 81 combinations of specials."

This is probably the most intellectually honest argument there is against mii specials, but nobody will admit to this reasoning because they don't want to sound lazy. It's fine dudes, this is the most consistent argument you can make against mii specials. Has NA by and large stuck with the vanilla meta because we don't want to learn 81 * 50 something setups, or is it because we mostly don't think the customs meta is balanced based on what seems like substandard testing on behalf of the developers and minimal attention in update patches? If it's the former, then yes, go ahead and keep the 1111 restriction (see argument #5) or ban miis altogether. If it's the latter, keep their specials, because as John#s demonstrated, that happenstance doesn't apply to them and they're being balanced for use in a vanilla meta.

#4: "Developer intent is irrelevant."

Ahh yes, the mantra of every Smash 4 player who tried out Melee once and learned what wavedashing was. Or better yet, the precursor to "if we cared about developer intent we'd be playing with items". First of all, item switch hasn't been a hidden feature since Smash 64. The developer intent has always been to give us a customizable sandbox fighter, which we've gotten in every iteration. The developers might like items better and like Smash as a party game, but that hasn't stopped them from giving us options. That's why we can turn items off and don't have to say to each other "okay guys, remember, you're not allowed to pick up items". The latter is an example of a surgical rule, you know, those complicated things we only add to the meta when something proves to be an issue not solvable by the game settings.

Furthermore, the vanilla meta has received more fine-tuning and balance patches from the developers, and is also the more popular metagame. I'm sure it's just a coincidence and intent really is irrrelevant.

#5: "1111 is composed of the first options for their creation in the UI, so they should be treated as defaults."

Oh wait, I'm sorry, whatever happened to "developer intent is irrelevant"? This is a good argument for a default moveset IF we can demonstrate that mii specials ought to be banned, but on its own is a weak pro-ban argument. The game's UI is not a stronger argument than its settings functionality or its metagame balance.‎

At the end of the day a lot of this comes down to preference and "I don't want to learn the full matchup" vs "I don't mind learning the full matchup". That's why it would have made more sense all along to let the game decide what's legal first under the settings in the "Rules" menu that we provide, and ban it later if it proves to be a problem. That's a method backed up by Smash's entire history. ‎If there is a case to ban mii specials, then the way it should have happened would be for opponents to provide the data for it or make compelling arguments for it. Instead the status quo has been to ban something we had no business banning in the first place, and none of the evidence supporting their legality is enough to overcome the emotional arguments from opponents.

Full disclosure: I'm a Jigglypuff main. I do not play Mii in any capacity, or even enjoy fighting vs their specials, but I can't in good conscience side myself with the anti-specials side when their arguments seem very poor to me.‎

‎
Addendum: These are not arguments in favour of lifting the ban. They're reasons why pro-ban arguments are bad. For as much as the pro-ban side likes to tout "consistency", consistency would have been putting the onus on the pro-ban side in the first place.‎

The Smash community has been getting steadily worse about this behaviour (surgical bans without empirical evidence) in regards to stages, as well. We've reached the point where top-level players willingly take a Sheik to Smashville. That said, Mii Fighters are by far the worst example of this we've seen so far.

 

[wizrad]

I'm going to lose my mind the next time I see a whole set played on Smashville.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I'm going to lose my mind the next time I see a whole set played on Smashville.

Not like there are that many other options right now. I mean, starter list is what, Smashville, Town & City, Final Destination, Battlefield/Miiverse, and Dream Land?

 

[wizrad]

I'd love to see Town and City. But I'd really like Delfino. Or Duck Hunt. Or even Battlefield. But it's Smashville, Smashville, Smashville. And I'm not an Animal Crossing fan.

 

[L9999]

I think there are a thousand threads about this, but I'm going to comentate on it anyways. They should be legal, all with custom moves.

 

[Buffoon]

Yes. However, if Miis are allowed their customs, then the rest of the cast should be allowed as well.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Speaking as a 64 player i am neutral on the topic of stage variety

 

[greyunit]

I personally think that limiting miis to just the 1111 custom moves is really dumb. That said, I think they should only be allowed in customs play, where all characters have to option of custom moves.

 

[wizrad]

The problem is that you're suggesting we ban 3 perfectly balanced characters (as a Brawler main, I know HK is dumb, but it is no worse than Boost Kick) for no real reason. Having different specials is no real advantage anyways. It's not like we can change during a game. Changing specials would be less impactful than switching from Mario to Doc.

 

[Rashyboy05]

We've reached the point where top-level players willingly take a Sheik to Smashville.

I've asked question regarding this behaviour during a Twitch stream. I've been told (and ridiculed) by so many people that Smashville isn't Shiek's best stage and Battlefield is her best stage.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Yes. However, if Miis are allowed their customs, then the rest of the cast should be allowed as well.

I actually agree, and wish Customs would return to the meta as well. Most of them are fun and it would be easy to ban the handful of troublesome ones.

So, apparently there are claims going around that Mii mains are engaging in Twitter harassment. Unless there's proof of this, I suspect people are extrapolating way too much from a joke I made.

When told we weren't playing "a real character", I thought: "Okay, explain the Mii Swordfighter Amiibo on my desk?" Well, if it's not a real character then clearly I was sold a product that does not exist. Same for every other person who bought a Mii Amiibo. So clearly we need to ask retailers for refunds, or so the joke went. This is of course ridiculous, nobody is seriously going to do that because this is a waste of their time, and a waste of the retailer's time and good-will. "Send copies of their replies to mvd's twitter", I added. The humor in this is that of course we received real products of Nintendo characters, so there would be no refund forthcoming.

Far as I know, nobody has done this because nobody was stupid enough to file a refund claim for their Mii Amiibo as part of an overly elaborate joke. And from there nobody was ridiculous enough to then waste their own time sending mvd a copy of the retailer's refusal to refund the Mii Amiibo purchase. If they were, consider me very surprised because that is a LOT of effort to go to for no real purpose.

 

[wizrad]

I don't have a Twitter, but it seems like the Mii mains are usually the ones being harassed. I hope there aren't people out there bullying in the name of Mii rights, but I wouldn't be surprised considering the way this community has treated us.

 

[NegaNixx]

Based Chibo.

MLG has Miis legalized under Standard Size (That being Mid Mid/Whatever Guest Miis are) and Free use of alternate specials. There is no changing sets during the set, but you're allowed to make one of each type of Mii (Brawler/Swordfighter/Gunner).

I personally think this is the ideal ruleset when it comes to compromising logistics and playability. The Miis get to use their moves, as well as giving people clear cut guidelines on what they're fighting against in regards to the character's base statistics (mobility, hitboxes, hurt boxes, frame data, and range.)

The characters viability should not be called into question during the debate. It's arbitrary and subjective.

Edit: We do have High Level Player backlash though as expected. But the reasoning itself is weak and the ones backing them generally are misinformed. So it's not too bad. Most of them are complaining about helicopter kick killing at 40% without knowing either the rule limits the character to Mid Mid, or that Mid Mid doesn't allow for that set up.

 

[Pazx]

The ideal ruleset wouldn't prevent switching between two different movesets, but this is a step in the right direction.

 

[NegaNixx]

I'm okay with either or to be honest.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Discussion in the Mii Fighter chat has turned to the revelation that, certain competitors, and I won't name names, are making public comments on Twitter about an upcoming tournament where Miis are modestly legal (one per customer, any set, default system Mii), about how they're thankful for (paraphrase) "not wasting their time going."

I discourage anyone from retaliating towards these competitors. Instead, I would like to sternly remind them, should they seek this post out, that their comments are not in a vacuum. You are, willfully or woefully, discouraging your opponents from playing the game, while simultaneously baiting a reaction.

If you are reading this, I ask you, sincerely, to stop acting with such an arrogant tone. You stand at the podium for the world. Everyone can hear you.

 

[Rashyboy05]

Welp, ZeRo's at it again. Trying to restrict Miis to their ***tastic form.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[NegaNixx]

Discussion in the Mii Fighter chat has turned to the revelation that, certain competitors, and I won't name names, are making public comments on Twitter about an upcoming tournament where Miis are modestly legal (one per customer, any set, default system Mii), about how they're thankful for (paraphrase) "not wasting their time going."

I discourage anyone from retaliating towards these competitors. Instead, I would like to sternly remind them, should they seek this post out, that their comments are not in a vacuum. You are, willfully or woefully, discouraging your opponents from playing the game, while simultaneously baiting a reaction.

If you are reading this, I ask you, sincerely, to stop acting with such an arrogant tone. You stand at the podium for the world. Everyone can hear you.

Asking yours and everyone else's opinion. I've seen quite a few of these players just state "custom Miis legal".

We should be cutting that particular phrase at the stem in my mind. Always clarifying that it's Mid Mid, no changes for each individual Mii archetype per set.

Custom Miis brings cries of helicopter kick killing at 40%, when they don't know the implications.

Should we be correcting that at every given opportunity? Or leaving it alone? Not as a reply for the actual poster but for those who the poster can influence.

And what's wrong with putting people on blast? Honest question. They know who they are. I'm not saying we should get the fire pit ready and roast them. But why not naming names? Safety reasons? I'm honestly asking.

 

[ZarroTsu]

And what's wrong with putting people on blast? Honest question. They know who they are. I'm not saying we should get the fire pit ready and roast them. But why not naming names? Safety reasons? I'm honestly asking.

I am not the bully in this situation. I'm making a conscious effort to not act like one.

If these particular competitors want to act flamboyant and superior, then that's their choice. The choice they make when they make a social media post. I do not condone it, as I am strongly against bullies. But, again, it's their choice. They can say what they want, where they want.

If we retaliate, they're no longer the bullies, they're the victims. Word through the grapevine is, there are already some sneaky discussions happening behind our backs, where certain competitors are telling third party groups that they're already being victimized. Perhaps there are participants berating them behind our backs, or perhaps they want more people to join their cause for the wrong reasons. I don't know.

Does all of this make me angry? Of course. I'm not a very strong player, while some may see the statement as modest, but I enjoy playing and learning almost the entire roster. I cannot comprehend why players of the same game would advocate defacing both particular characters and the players of those characters, for their own entertainment purposes. Whether concurrent or as a result.

And these such people, honest of all, also love Smash. Regardless of who they are, they are also players of the same game. How does making them think, or hope, or pretend to be victims help anyone? Nobody looks any better for it.

Gotta draw the line and climb above it.

 

[NegaNixx]

Perfectly understandable. Gotta focus on the cause and not the people on the other side. Thanks for clearing it up.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

MLG has made a significant improvement to the Mii rules?

brb going to find MLG's PR contact info and let them know I really appreciate this decision

 

[san.]

MLG has made a significant improvement to the Mii rules?

brb going to find MLG's PR contact info and let them know I really appreciate this decision

Yep, I am looking forward to these acceptable rulesets from non-grassroots tournaments.

 

[Raijinken]

NC's group chat is aflame with rage at Miis being legal.

Awaiting the hypocrisy as we fail to adopt them despite copying the majors' rulesets.

 

[Antonykun]

Rarely is the times where i can see concentrated salt en masse

for this I greatly appreciate the backlash over the MLG tournament

 

[Stromp]

As long as they have 1-1-1-1 and are guest miis

 

[Unknownkid]

Looks like MLG ruleset created a war zone in twitter (one sided as always). This is truly sad about this community. Players spreading misinformation with another, players are happy to avoid a simple tournament and mindless following everywhere. Anyways, I believe I noticed a major issue - Esam, being the most rational top player there, mention testing the ruleset out and seeing how it goes. What exactly determine a Pass or Fail for Miis? Are mii mains supposed to try and win the tournament or do we hold back our potential in fear that we get "banned" due to their opponent lack of knowledge?

Think about it. If Miis get top 8, is that a good or bad thing? Since most players are not used to fighting any of the miis, will anything we do be considered "jank"? I am not afraid of Swordfighter or heck even Brawler's potential. The deciding factor will be Mii Gunner and what she can really do.

Meh, I guess they should be glad the mii cannot used their optimal size. All hell breaks loose if Tiny Brawler, Tiny Gunner and Tiny Swordfighter receive full reign.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

As long as they have 1-1-1-1 and are guest miis

Half right. They're Guest Miis but they get their selection of moves. As is proper for a character whose gimmick is 'you pick your moves.'

Looks like MLG ruleset created a war zone in twitter (one sided as always).

Don't let it be. Get out there and voice support, be sure to tag MLG accounts when doing so. If a top player says something good about the Miis, praise them. (Simple is best here; no passive-aggressiveness or witty remarks, just be nice).

I sent MLG a few messages to this effect. Mii mains... not just Unknownkid, but you, the Mii player reading this, do something. Voice your support. It takes a few minutes. I am asking you, personally, to get your voice out there for the character you enjoy.

This is truly sad about this community.

Yes it is. The sheer amount of complaints from so-called 'top players' over adding (I thought we liked this?) three balanced (I thought we also liked this?) characters for the metagame to chew on and explore (again, don't we like this?)... reveals a lot about them!

Players spreading misinformation with another,

Imagine that. The ignorant spreading ignorance, and sticking their fingers in their ears and singing loudly when Mii mains have done a lot of research to show what these characters do and don't accomplish? We did more lab work than them, but we're told we're the ones who 'deserve to be without a character'? Huh.

players are happy to avoid a simple tournament and mindless following everywhere.

Imagine if players in the NFL, NHL, NBA, MLB, or so on did this. Imagine if they stomped out because of a rule change. The media would have a field day with berating them over it.

Anyways, I believe I noticed a major issue - Esam, being the most rational top player there, mention testing the ruleset out and seeing how it goes. What exactly determine a Pass or Fail for Miis? Are mii mains supposed to try and win the tournament or do we hold back our potential in fear that we get "banned" due to their opponent lack of knowledge?

Damn good question. And you know what? I almost want to say the answer is 'yes, hold back.' Almost. If they witness Swordfighter or Gunner or whoever scoring kills at 40%, they will absolutely scream and cry and pitch fits over it. So what do we do, not do such things for this tournament until they 'let their guard down'? Except they won't. If we wait 2 tournaments and reveal such a tactic, they will cry then. If we wait 10 tournaments and reveal it, they will cry then. So it almost sounds like we should make a mockery of the spirit of competition just to enjoy our character. And if we lose, they'll just insult us for 'not playing a real character' anyway. They have stacked the deck and are looking for reasons to ban Miis (if we win), or insult us (if we lose). So maybe we hold back, but not hold back too much?

But you know what? No. Let's not go that route. Let's hope that one of us among the Mii players is so good that, contrary to all reasonable expectations, they completely destroy the opposition. 40% kills just like Zero Suit Samus does. Let them reveal themselves to be utterly ridiculous when they're okay when one Nintendo character does such kills, but not okay with it when another part of Nintendo's history does so. Let them embarrass themselves as they validate the Street Fighter community's low opinion of them with their anti-competitive nonsense. Let Nintendo see what 'top players' think of their efforts to balance these characters and see if Nintendo is so eager to spend so much development time on balance patches and other ongoing support of Smash for a minority of hardcore players.

Think about it. If Miis get top 8, is that a good or bad thing? Since most players are not used to fighting any of the miis, will anything we do be considered "jank"?

Yes. 'Jank' will be their battle cry. Why put in the work to learn counters and adapt to a match-up when you can shriek 'jank' and get a tournament organizer to change the rules to protect your pay-day, after all?

 

[DanGR]

Looks like MLG ruleset created a war zone in twitter (one sided as always). This is truly sad about this community. Players spreading misinformation with another, players are happy to avoid a simple tournament and mindless following everywhere. Anyways, I believe I noticed a major issue - Esam, being the most rational top player there, mention testing the ruleset out and seeing how it goes. What exactly determine a Pass or Fail for Miis? Are mii mains supposed to try and win the tournament or do we hold back our potential in fear that we get "banned" due to their opponent lack of knowledge?

Think about it. If Miis get top 8, is that a good or bad thing? Since most players are not used to fighting any of the miis, will anything we do be considered "jank"? I am not afraid of Swordfighter or heck even Brawler's potential. The deciding factor will be Mii Gunner and what she can really do.

Meh, I guess they should be glad the mii cannot used their optimal size. All hell breaks loose if Tiny Brawler, Tiny Gunner and Tiny Swordfighter receive full reign.

I've always viewed calling something "jank" as just another way of saying "I don't really understand ____. Really I'm demeaning ____ so that I can feel better about my own lack understanding."

 

[DavemanCozy]

Lol, holy cow looks like I missed the Twitter debate, only saw Ally's post on FB.

I just want to play the game Can we just play the game?

 

[Raijinken]

Lol, holy cow looks like I missed the Twitter debate, only saw Ally's post on FB.

I just want to play the game Can we just play the game?

You can only play the game if you don't play Miis and aren't bothered by their exclusion.

Which is kinda the real issue the supporters in this thread have. Being unallowed to play the game because of arbitrary dislike.

 

[ZarroTsu]

I mean, you can play the game anyway.

But at this point, I'm curious if it's about Miis explicitly, or about the top competing members of the community repeatedly discouraging new players from challenging them. And, anonymous members encouraging the behavior.

Because if I'm being honest, I don't know if I'd feel safe being in the same building as most of them. I feel like I'd get physically beaten up if I expressed my opinion.

 

[Raijinken]

I mean, you can play the game anyway.

But at this point, I'm curious if it's about Miis explicitly, or about the top competing members of the community repeatedly discouraging new players from challenging them. And, anonymous members encouraging the behavior.

Because if I'm being honest, I don't know if I'd feel safe being in the same building as most of them. I feel like I'd get physically beaten up if I expressed my opinion.

Seeing what happens on the internet, you're probably right, at least if you were to express your opinion nearly as strongly as any of them.

Miis/Customs/whatever are still a symptom worth treating, though. Since we won't have to express our opinions once our opinion is incorporated into the rules.

Still, seeing the rage over MLG's implementation of Miis has removed most of my hope for this community being able to make objective or informed decisions on the larger scale.

 

[DavemanCozy]

You can only play the game if you don't play Miis and aren't bothered by their exclusion.

Which is kinda the real issue the supporters in this thread have. Being unallowed to play the game because of arbitrary dislike.

Well, what I meant was to just "play the game as is given" without enforcing bans. I like pidgezero_one 's points above, along with the other posts I've seen here supporting Miis more than the opposing side that wants to ban Miis: I'm not a particular huge fan of fighting Heli-derp kick, but neither do I like fighting Sonic, Sheik, or Luigi, and yet those characters are legal.

Could you say that opponents of the other special moves are Mii-ssing the point?