A forum for Sheik will be implemented within the night's end. As of now, no new threads centralizing around Sheik should be posted without ample infraction.
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No Sheik threads
- Thread starter RyokoYaksa
- Start date
Zelda and Sheik used to share the same board in the Melee section, as well. Some years after they were split due to the utter lack of integrated playstyle. The difference with Samus/Zero Suit Samus is that they are as of now mutually interdependent. Zelda and Sheik are not, and there is a huge divide between Zelda fans and Sheik fans.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
I agree with G-X here, Zelda and Sheik should've always been considered the same character IMO, and hopefully the change will be quick enough for a true linked play style.
Remember, they didn't announce Sheik as "New Challenger Approaching", just as Zelda's vB, Sheik is one of Zelda's special not a character on her own. The seperate boards for strategy are only a practical effect of the change being too slow for a proper linked playstyle.
Again, my number one wish for Brawl is that they correct that issue and allow for true integrated playstyles instead of the hackneyed, mainly mindgames approach.
Remember, they didn't announce Sheik as "New Challenger Approaching", just as Zelda's vB, Sheik is one of Zelda's special not a character on her own. The seperate boards for strategy are only a practical effect of the change being too slow for a proper linked playstyle.
Again, my number one wish for Brawl is that they correct that issue and allow for true integrated playstyles instead of the hackneyed, mainly mindgames approach.
I don't see why there's such a huge divide between Zelda/Sheik fans. I'm sure Sheik is going to get nerfed so that Zelda and Sheik have to be used together so that she is an effective character.
Ohwell. Can't wait for the board.
Ohwell. Can't wait for the board.
Soluble Toast
Smash Ace
Thank god.. D:
I was worried the forums would be flooded with
" HAHA, SHEEK IS CONFURMED!"
Don't have to worry about that all to much now. x]
Thanks Ryoko.
I was worried the forums would be flooded with
" HAHA, SHEEK IS CONFURMED!"
Don't have to worry about that all to much now. x]
Thanks Ryoko.
Not to disagree with wanting them to be intergrated (ie relying on each other) all returning vetrans never had the "New Challenger Aproaching" namely because they weren't new challengers.
That's really worst case scenario though. Everyone has a favorite, and playing just one shouldn't make the character ineffective. I think Zelda and Sheik players will agree. They should be best when combined, but still evenly matched with other characters when separate.
People didn't use the Transform not because it's slow (on the contrary, it is fairly fast). The reason so few people really bothered to do it was that Zelda was one of the very worst characters in the game, while Sheik was one of the very best. This lead to most players using one or the other exclusively. Sifting through threads based on one exclusive character while trying to find information on another exclusive character is not convenient or useful.
Which is exactly what is happening right now.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
That's a good point, erm *open mouth, insert foot*
Still Sheik was introduced as Zelda's vB, not as a returning vet.
Sheik is in fact on the Veterans character listing, FYI.
http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/characters/index.html
http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/characters/index.html
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Which is true, but the problem is, it was just slow enough that it was impossible to link moves off eachover, set up with Sheik then switch to Zelda for an f-smash or fair/dair.
It should've been closer to style-branching in Mortal Kombat, then Zelda would've seen use by advanced Sheiks simply because her fair/dair is an awesome kill move at low percentages.
Yeah, it was mainly because Zelda was poor, but a few of her moves would've been useful with a faster change.
Either way, at this point we don't know what the eventual status of Zelda and Sheik will be, we haven't played either. Maybe the new combo will lend itself very well to a dual playstyle, but at this point, we don't know, so they should be together.
Once brawl comes out we can decide if they should be treated as separate characters.
****it! Why'd they go and do that?
This would been just plain broken for Sheik, and would not have fixed the big issue of Zelda being an extremely niche character.
The Zelda/Sheik formula present in Melee killed any hope of this happening in practice, and is the primary reason for the divide between Zelda fans and Sheik fans today. Disregarding that, but while you're using one form, you're not using the other. Strategies about using the other's moves can still take place in the current character's forum. Discussing extended usage of one character or exclusive usage is best dealt with using a specific character forum where each thread is relevant to the character you want. This is why we are splitting their boards. The same will be soon done to Samus/Zero Suit Samus if I have anything to say about it.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
But with this one change there definately would've been play for Zelda, this is how they were supposed to be played, the change-time and Zelda's weakness made it impractical. But make no mistake, it would've made Sheik/Zelda top tier, probably surpassing Fox and Falco.
That said, I think that they should've made Sheik less powerful and Zelda more powerful anyway.
I believe the smash community is very creative and if a linked strategy proves to be more effective in Brawl, the community will gravitate towards it, in the same way they gravitated towards playing Sheik exclusively.
If the community in general uses them as a linked character then they shall be considered as such.
And the discussion of using one character, the other character, or a linked playstyle is still best handled by separate boards. I don't see your point.
DarkSpidey13
Smash Ace
i agree, and by the same reasoning shouldn't Samus and Zero Suit Samus have separate boards? they are linked characters, but have a playstyle as completely different as Zelda and Sheik's. why the double standard?
Read my other posts.
DarkSpidey13
Smash Ace
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Linked playstyle would be the default since they are still one character.
As such it would be more convienent for a single board until the community ultimately decides, or at least until Brawl is released.
For strategy though, how about 3 boards, one for Sheik, one for Zelda, one for Linked?
Williampettysan
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2007
- Messages
- 392
Oh please shut up about it. Sheik's getting her own board, Zamus dosen't who gives? Don't complain.
-.-;;
Idealism and realism are not mutually inclusive.
Zelda and Sheik are not "one character." They are two completely unique characters who happen to be able to access each other's character with the Down+B. One's moveset is not integrated or strung into the others at all except for this (non-instant) Down+B link (and the Final Smash supposedly). If the player chooses, they can use one character and not bother with the other at all.
Also, even if you do use both as a linked playstyle... guess what? YOU'RE STILL ONLY USING ONE CHARACTER AT ANY GIVEN TIME. Discussions of specific character strategy will still take place in that respective character's forum. Mentioning the Transform and using the other character is inevitably mentionable at times, but further discussion of using the other character is still better handled by posting in the other character's forum. There is no purpose in making an integrated character forum except to make searching for information on a specific character inconvenient.
If you want Zelda help, then read/post in the Zelda forum. If you want Sheik help, then read/post in the Sheik forum. If you use both and fancy yourself a playstyle that centers around using both, then you'll read/post in both forums anyway. If you can't understand this, then slam your keyboard into your face until you do.
Williampettysan
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2007
- Messages
- 392
I think Sheik's gonna get horribly nerfred like Fox.
blueriku
Smash Journeyman
i don't think sheik will be nerfed to bad definitely with her needles that will be nerfed maybe in tilts but over all sheik might stay the same as to her move now as for her her speed and overall movement that will most likely change.
If you think about Zelda would of been good if she was slightly more faster ( like Kirby speed of peach speed) a little bit more priority and slightly heavier ( like peach or Yoshi) do these things and Zelda would of been god. still im very excited i can wait to main both sheik and zelda.
If you think about Zelda would of been good if she was slightly more faster ( like Kirby speed of peach speed) a little bit more priority and slightly heavier ( like peach or Yoshi) do these things and Zelda would of been god. still im very excited i can wait to main both sheik and zelda.
Layupfreak
Smash Ace
I agree with Mic
Chunky-MonkeyLOL
Smash Cadet
This right here, is the truth.
:034:
Smash Hero
Good. The Dutchman approves.
Pieman0920
Smash Master
Wait, ZSS is joined in with Samus, but Sheik's not going to be with Zelda? That doesn't seem right. Shouldn't you give ZSS her own special page, since she has her own different page on the Dojo?
I have not the time nor the patience to repeat myself.
Personally, I'd like to know where this interdependent Sheik/Zelda idea came from.
Everyone is just assuming how Zelda and Sheik were meant to be played and not looking at the fact that interdependent characters won't work in a game like this. And no PT's pokemon are not interdependent.
Why would the development team give both characters a full set of moves then make both characters so that one needs to do the combos and one the KO moves? This obviously didn't come true for Melee. Almost all of Sheik's moves happened to be good, and almost all of Zelda's moves happened to suck. If Sheik was meant to combo and Zelda KO, Sheik would lack KO moves, which she certainly doesn't, and Zelda would have way more kill moves, which she doesn't.
I think that this interdependent idea is just Zelda fans hating the fact that Zelda sucks.
Everyone is just assuming how Zelda and Sheik were meant to be played and not looking at the fact that interdependent characters won't work in a game like this. And no PT's pokemon are not interdependent.
Why would the development team give both characters a full set of moves then make both characters so that one needs to do the combos and one the KO moves? This obviously didn't come true for Melee. Almost all of Sheik's moves happened to be good, and almost all of Zelda's moves happened to suck. If Sheik was meant to combo and Zelda KO, Sheik would lack KO moves, which she certainly doesn't, and Zelda would have way more kill moves, which she doesn't.
I think that this interdependent idea is just Zelda fans hating the fact that Zelda sucks.
Luthien
Smash Ace
Just, you know: the game?
As usual, you are trying to argue an argument as what was meant to happen with what actually DID happen. It's clear Zelda and Sheik were MEANT to be interedependent. Something just screwed up in the middle.
How aren't they? Unlike Zelda and Sheik, you HAVE to switch or you pokemon gets gradually weaker. That seems forced interdependence to me.
The fact that it didn't work DOESN'T MEAN IT WASN'T SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN.
Argued in the Sheik thread.
And of course that's an unbiased opinion. Really, get your facts straight. They WERE INTENDED to be interdependent. Something. Just. Screwed. Up.
Aside from the fact that their trophies say so, why should they be connected in such a manner? What purpose could you have by creating 2 "complete" characters and then destroying one of their specials?
How can you tell me what was intended?
You were not part of the development team. You don't know. You are assuming.
What irrefutable FACTS do you have to support the claim that they were intended to be swapped regularly? The fact that they are linked by their b move is not enough. Zelda changes into Sheik in OoT. This was reason enough for her to change into Sheik in Melee. This doesn't mean you were meant to use both of them interchangeably. It's a gimmick.
And since you're making the claim about how they were meant to be played, could you go ahead and explain to me exactly how they messed it up so bad in the actual game? Why did the final product veer so far away from the "original plan"?
And while PT's pokemon force you to switch, they are not interdependent in that their fighting styles do not rely on each other as you suggest Sheik and Zelda's are supposed to.
It's not like Squirtle is the combo character and Charizard is the KO character. If they were meant to be used in particular roles for certain situations, you wouldn't be forced to swap them in a triangle, you'd be able to use the one you need when you need it.
What if you were using Squirtle, but you needed Charizard for a KO? You would have to swap to Ivysaur and then swap again to get to Charizard. And the swap animation takes 3 seconds, which is a long time in a fighting game. Such a system, where you need a particular pokemon for a particular role, wouldn't work out anyway.
Just as an interdependent Shek/Zelda wouldn't work. If say Zelda were the KO character that everyone claims she always should have been and Sheik were the combo character, with little KO moves, both would suffer from having to rely on each other's strengths, instead of being able to fight on their own. Since the down B isn't instant and is actually very punishable, you'd be screwed when you'd need to swap for a certain situation. And even if it was faster/safer, switching would prove a hassle that would ensure that only the most devoted players would bother to use Zelda OR Sheik.
All that needs to happen is that Zelda becomes a better character overall so that there is a reason to use her. But I don't think that Zelda and Sheik will suddenly rely on each other in Brawl as you suggest they were meant to in Melee. One will be better than the other, and the weaker one will be overshadowed.
-spAzn-
Smash Journeyman
Sorry to butt in but Luthien isn't pulling this stuff out of his ***. I was playing Melee earlier and decided to look at the trophies. For Sheik it says and I qoute "Stategically switching between Zelda and Sheik is the key. Compared to her Zelda form, Sheik is nimble and has gorgeous moves, but lacks a strong knockout attack". That's from the second trophy the third trophy says " The best strategy to use when playing as Sheik is to let her flow from one powerful attack into another, like a river of quicksilver. Zelda has some techniques with more punch, however, so in one-on-one battles, use transform as needed."
See so they were intended to be used as a pair. Sheik was suppose to rack up damage and Zelda was suppose to KO. Though some reason that didn't happen and I don't know why. In the end I just want them to be their own character with equal abilities because then it just come down to picking favorites. Can't wait till next week to finally see how the whole tranformation thing works out.
See so they were intended to be used as a pair. Sheik was suppose to rack up damage and Zelda was suppose to KO. Though some reason that didn't happen and I don't know why. In the end I just want them to be their own character with equal abilities because then it just come down to picking favorites. Can't wait till next week to finally see how the whole tranformation thing works out.
Stiputation
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2007
- Messages
- 263
Quoted from truth. The reason why it didn't work was because Melee was totally speed biased. If your character had speed, your character had everything it needed to win. Look at Bowser, Bowser had TONS of power. But because he didn't have speed, he wasn't able to catch up to characters to ultimately use his power packed punches. Zelda just didn't pack enough punch to compensate for her lack of speed. Sheik already handled the speed aspect, and the designers modeled her moves so that she would be able to handle herself as a complete charcater. Where as Zelda was simply stiletto spamage.
However, Brawl does have a different physics engine. Speed may not play such an important role in this game. Not to mention the game overall should be more balanced. Its already been confirmed that Zelda will be retaining her poor moobility. BUT IN ORDER FOR HER TO BE A COMPLETE CHARACTER IS FOR HER MOVES TO BE BUFFED. Its that simple. You aren't able to have a good character that doesn't have speed OR power.
Ztarfish
Smash Journeyman
Sorry to change topics, but I think it's awfully weird that ZSS and Samus have separate threads. Sheik and Zelda players are a very different species, whereas ZSS and Samus players HAVE to be the same player. Sheik and Zelda players can very much play their respective character without even touching the other, but if you want to play ZSS you have to play Samus.
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2007
- Messages
- 5,164
You don't know that. There's actually a very good chance you'll be able to start off as Zamus; there's no reason NOT to allow that. I would REALLY start to question Sakurai's judgment if he left out such an easily implemented feature.
Then, once your Zamus, the only thing you have to do to keep from becoming Samus is avoid the Smash Ball—not hard.