NintenZone Social Thread: Shovel Knight Amiibo Hype Catastrophe (feat. Swamp)

[DMurr]

Because they do know.

That still proves my point because that means they weren't looking at the ballot to pick him.

 

[Burb]

That still proves my point because that means they weren't looking at the ballot to pick him.

Source?

 

[PushDustIn]

I know I said I was done, but since you wrote such a response, I feel that I must at least respond to parts, but not all of them because I feel like we are starting to talk in circles and semantics,.

Ok, I know you said you were done talking about it, but I was sleeping and didn't get a chance to respond yet, so I'll just give a few thoughts.

I think @Curious Villager has a valid point that I didn’t originally think of regarding the ballot not being restricted for the same reason as Mewtwo being available for purchase for everyone. The votes on the ballot were always going to be meaningless, though. @vaanrose has explained to me multiple times why an opt-in vote (which the ballot is) will always give inaccurate data, because you’re never going to get a true representation of the whole when only a subset will be the ones opting in. We’re that subset.

The thing about botted votes though, is that it will be clear which they are as their information isn’t being filled out differently each time. Their databases might not even store exactly repeated data. The chance of two humans writing the exact same, word-for-word response on the ballot is incredibly low. Yes, possible, but it won’t be a significant effect on the results if one of those isn’t counted.

Ignoring botted votes then (which you can program to fill out somewhat randomly, or at least possibly differentiate enough so they aren't caught by the program (depending on how much work is actually being done in "Counting" the votes. This isn't a Florida recount situation).

Yeah, well things usually end up different than we expect, like Wario not making Melee as you’ve mentioned a few times before. I’m not meaning to imply that we’re getting exactly K. Rool, Isaac, Wolf, Shovel Knight, Snake, etc. who match the fan polls, and I’ve never thought that anyway. I'm sure some fans do, but that will happen regardless.

Consolation prize is defined as the following:


Maybe I’m arguing semantics here, and correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding of what your original point was is that with so many people voting on the ballot, a significant number of those people not knowing who K. Rool is, he probably isn’t winning or is likely overshadowed by your non-Smash fan votes. If that’s true, he didn’t narrowly lose, and he’s certainly not in last. He’d be somewhere in the middle. How would the ballot be influential in picking a character that’s middle of the road?

You are getting too nitpicky with definitions. @ Burb already explained what I meant.

Arguing semantics here also, and again correct me if I’m wrong since I can’t read the original Japanese, but he made the “popular and demanded” statement about all three, yes? Lucas and Roy were demanded, but all three were popular. He didn’t narrow down to specifically Ryu’s demand, so the statement about all three isn’t false overall. You even noted yourself that, at least among Smash fans, Ryu wasn’t a popular suggestion (30th place on the poll, yes?). What I was saying before about the ballot being so open-ended applies here too. How many people online were voting for Ryu? A portion of people that saw the ballot who are Street Fighter fans? Even then, there’s so many different Street Fighter characters who could be voted for.

No it's VERY clear that he's saying they were ALL popular and demanded. Sorry for the bold, I don't know how to make it any clearer. You can't separate a part of it when the sentence (and the version that Soma translated) as it clearly indicates that both factors applies to all three characters. You can't say all of it applies to two of them, and then half it applies to the other. That doesn't make any sense. The only explanation is that fan polling (mine included) is inefficient in actually capturing the same data that Sakurai and his team are capturing. Is it 100% useless? No. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that it's a real possibility that we won't get characters that we say as shoo-ins, and that all of us need to keep that in mind. Right now, there's no evidence to say definitively one way or the other.

Yeah, it’s possible, but there’s still the Sakurai filter I’ve mentioned multiple times which prevented non-relevant characters from getting into Smash 4, of which both K. Rool and Isaac fit the criteria for. This is something @ Burb talks about all the time. It's also what kept Lucas and Wolf from the base roster, and potentially will keep Wolf out. Unless they receive new games or are added to new games, they’re still in the same place they were before. It’s fairly unprecedented for Sakurai to pick a “middle” character compared to a classic or modern character. Both Bowser Jr. and Rosalina got in before Toad, for example, even though he was one of the top choices on the Smash 2 poll.

The best shot for characters like these is through the ballot.

I kind of agree but for different reasons. This ballot will carry over for Smash 5. Smash 5 can easily have Isaac and King K. Rool, as newcomers. Like I mentioned in one of my posts, this happened with Wario and the Villager. They are one of the "stars" of the new game, being unveiled with the game's first trailer. I think for DLC they are going to need to pick more overall popular characters as they need to aim for the lowest denominator. Most hardcore fans will buy anything they release.

Excuse any spelling errors. I'm too tired for this.

 

[Frostwraith]

Sure, but why would they pick K. Rool if they didn't know he was popular with the fans? They're definitely going to use the top results. Saying the number of votes isn't important is inaccurate as it just gives a numeric value to the characters. Sakurai knows who the popular characters are and has always picked most of his selections from those. I don't think we're going to have a "first place choice character" or anything, but the results do matter.

My point in what you're responding to isn't winning or losing the ballot, it's that you can't say both K. Rool was picked as a consolation prize from the ballot and say his votes are overshadowed. That's contradictory. If he was picked for a costume because of say, online popularity, then that bypasses the ballot altogether and says nothing about it, which is what we're discussing. If his votes are overshadowed, there's no reason to have picked him for a costume over other characters.

In the Smash Bros. 2 Japan-only poll, Ganondorf was the most popular Zelda character, yet Zelda/Sheik was chosen, while Ganondorf was lucky to be a clone.

Popularity matters. but isn't everything.

Of course, for DLC, things might be different. Besides, Mii costumes are faster to develop.

Should K. Rool be actually added as a character, the K. Rool Mii outfit could have just been finished first.

 

[TheAnvil]

All these arguments over something that none of us know about.

 

[PushDustIn]

In the Smash Bros. 2 Japan-only poll, Ganondorf was the most popular Zelda character, yet Zelda/Sheik was chosen, while Ganondorf was lucky to be a clone.

Popularity matters. but isn't everything.

Of course, for DLC, things might be different. Besides, Mii costumes are faster to develop.

Should K. Rool be actually added as a character, the K. Rool Mii outfit could have just been finished first.

And the thing is, it wasn't even close. I'm organizing the data to show you exactly how much of a "suggestion box" this ballot is.
Anyone can see the full data without commentary, translated here.

Zelda and Clones:
Ganondorf - 36 votes
Child Link (Guess I should change that to Young Link) - 8 votes
Zelda - 8 votes
Sheik -8 votes

Young Link was even added before Ganondorf! They both ended up being clones, but still.


Other Nintendo Games:
Falco - 7 votes
Wolf - 4 votes
Mr. Saturn - 18 votes
Poo - 6 votes
Metroid - 6 votes

Retro:
Sukapon - 15 votes
Lip - 9 votes
Foreman Spike - 6 votes
Pit - 5 votes
Ice Climbers - 4 votes


The planned for 64 trio:
Bowser - 169 votes
Dedede - 46 votes
Mewtwo - 35 Votes

I think this clearly shows most amount of votes =/= guaranteed entry.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Chocobo beating Sonic.
Gooey beating Metaknight.
007 beating Banjo and Diddy.

The hell were these people smoking?!

 

[Champ Gold]

My stages would be


Windy Hill Zone
Death Egg Zone (it's Omega form is Doomsday Zone)
A stage based off of various Sega Arcade games
Bayonetta stage

 

[TheAnvil]

Chocobo beating Sonic.
Gooey beating Metaknight.
007 beating Banjo and Diddy.

The hell were these people smoking?!

Goldeneye was seriously popular as hell though.

 

[PushDustIn]

Chocobo beating Sonic.
Gooey beating Metaknight.
007 beating Banjo and Diddy.

The hell were these people smoking?!

The year was 1999, it was a hectic time with Y2K right around the corner. Plus, everyone was too busy jamming out to this....and having it their way.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Goldeneye was seriously popular as hell though.

Yeah, but that still doesn't change the fact that a fictional movie/book character who had been around for a long ass time before that game/movie won a poll against an actual Nintendo character and one of the most popular platformers of that era.

I don't even know why they'd have him on the poll anyways? Like was it suggested by people or were these multiple choice?

I'm baffled that anyone thought Sakurai would jump through hoops and go to like Ian Fleming's estate and be all ''Yes, may we please have James Bond shoot Mario in the face?"

 

[Champ Gold]

The year was 1999, it was a hectic time with Y2K right around the corner. Plus, everyone was too busy jamming out to this....and having it their way.

Nope they were listening to a superior BSB song, heh.

90s was lovable time. A time people wanna hate now, screw them let me have my nostalgia

Ape Escape is the best PS1 game and best N64 game was Hydro Thunder. Also the best Dreamcast games were still Sonic Adventure and NFL Blitz

 

[PushDustIn]

Yeah, but that still doesn't change the fact that a fictional movie/book character who had been around for a long *** time before that game/movie won a poll against an actual Nintendo character and one of the most popular platformers or that era.

I don't even know why they'd have him on the poll anyways? Like was it suggested by people or were these multiple choice?

I'm baffled that anyone thought Sakurai would jump through hoops and go to like Ian Fleming's estate and be all ''Yes, may we please have James Bond shoot Mario in the face?"

Sakurai actually wanted James Bond in Smash. He said he wasn't to implement his crouching. But guns, characters based on real people and licensing issues were James Bond barrier to entry. They did throw in the proximity mine from the game.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Sakurai actually wanted James Bond in Smash. He said he wasn't to implement his crouching. But guns, characters based on real people and licensing issues were James Bond barrier to entry. They did throw in the proximity mine from the game.

I mean the character is certainly iconic and that game was definitely a game that did things for the FPS genre, but it's such a strange choice, he's not really prominent in gaming or iconic to it otherwise.

Edit: Also if Sakurai wanted him to be in despite his third party status and the very limited role in iconic gaming he has, then...uhhhh, why is everyone so damn stingy about what third parties can and can't be in Sakurai's line of sight? Lol.

 

[Starlight_Lily]

Sakurai actually wanted James Bond in Smash. He said he wasn't to implement his crouching. But guns, characters based on real people and licensing issues were James Bond barrier to entry. They did throw in the proximity mine from the game.

Oh he wanted to put James Bond in Smash? Maybe he when Melee was happening he thought about possibly putting in Joana Dark from Perfect? Since it seen as a spiritual successor of sorts to Goldeneye (Sorry if I misspelled her name) And we do know he did consider Rare characters a possibility, but hehad reasons for not including them.

 

[Chrono.]

For any Digimon fans out there

 

[PushDustIn]

Oh he wanted to put James Bond in Smash? Maybe he when Melee was happening he thought about possibly putting in Joana Dark from Perfect? Since it seen as a spiritual successor of sorts to Goldeneye (Sorry if I misspelled her name) And we do know he did consider Rare characters a possibility, but hehad reasons for not including them.

James Bond for Melee.

I haven't seen anything about Ms. Dark in Melee. I'd be all over that. Perfect Dark is one of my favorite shooters of all time. Even with other Rare characters there were copyright issues (maybe that's why Diddy was only able to join in Brawl, after Rare was sold?)

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Chocobo beating Sonic.
Gooey beating Metaknight.
007 beating Banjo and Diddy.

The hell were these people smoking?!

The 90's were a weird time man. All that millennium hype and Y2K paranoia.

Still, part of me wants to see an actual Metroid moveset. Some kinda light command grappler with a health stealing gimmick.

 

[Khoru]

I mean the character is certainly iconic and that game was definitely a game that did things for the FPS genre, but it's such a strange choice, he's not really prominent in gaming or iconic to it otherwise.

Edit: Also if Sakurai wanted him to be in despite his third party status and the very limited role in iconic gaming he has, then...uhhhh, why is everyone so damn stingy about what third parties can and can't be in Sakurai's line of sight? Lol.

because they weren't actually in? considering a character isn't the same thing as adding them. ayumi tachibana was considered.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Rights to characters are so confusing.

Look at the Hulk movie situation.

But even there (and with Nintendo too) if you have Disney/Nintendo money you could easily wave away any rights issues. They just don't bother for some reason.

 

[Starlight_Lily]

James Bond for Melee.

I haven't seen anything about Ms. Dark in Melee. I'd be all over that. Perfect Dark is one of my favorite shooters of all time. Even with other Rare characters there were copyright issues (maybe that's why Diddy was only able to join in Brawl, after Rare was sold?)

Huh, neat.

I just thought if he wanted to implement the gameplay style of Goldeneye/Peret Dark, Sakurai would chose Ms Dark instead, seeing as she'd be much less of a hassle to get the rights to then James Bond, seeing as Rare was owned by Nintendo at the time.

Edit: Welp, that was a epic wrong word choice failure calling him James Right instead of James Bond

 

[Tree Gelbman]

because they weren't actually in? considering a character isn't the same thing as adding them. ayumi tachibana was considered.

Still the fact he considered a character who is by far more iconic to movies and novels in the first place is grounds for everyone to stop saying ''Sakurai would never even think of ____"

 

[DoodleDuck97]

I do have to wonder where we would be if the following had happened.
Snake actually got in Melee and potentially even Sonic.
> If Lucas had replaced Ness. The original 12 would have never been a thing, would Jiggs still be here.
Would ness have been brought back in Brawl?
And what might have happened if Ganondorf never got in.

 

[Starlight_Lily]

because they weren't actually in? considering a character isn't the same thing as adding them. ayumi tachibana was considered.

Yeah, Ayumi Tachibana was considered, but I kind of feel its not really all that important, since Ayumi is from a Nintendo published game, so I get the feeling that Sakurai considers a lot of characters from Nintendo games, but he only sees potential in some, and we have no idea how many characters Sakurai puts down on his proposal list for Smash game roster, for all we know he could put 100 characters on that list, but he knows that he will not be able to make them all.

 

[Khoru]

Yeah, Ayumi Tachibana was considered, but I kind of feel its not really all that important, since Ayumi is from a Nintendo published game, so I get the feeling that Sakurai considers a lot of characters from Nintendo games, but he only sees potential in some, and we have no idea how many characters Sakurai puts down on his proposal list for Smash game roster, for all we know he could put 100 characters on that list, but he knows that he will not be able to make them all.

i wonder if he's ever considered hakkun.
i'm serious, i think it's a forgotten and overlooked gem

 

[Geno Boost]

Chocobo beating Sonic.
Gooey beating Metaknight.
007 beating Banjo and Diddy.

The hell were these people smoking?!

To be honest Gooey looks like a kind of character that have interesting moveset better than another swordmen

 

[Z25]

Anyome going to join this?:

 

[Deleted member]

Anyome going to join this?:

>3 stocks
>5 minutes
STOP
T
O
P

 

[Khoru]

To be honest Gooey looks like a kind of character that have interesting moveset better than another swordmen

...
smash 64 had one swordfighter.
i...

 

[Champ Gold]

Are sword fighters just a scapegoat for everything in Smash?

Is considered Satan now?

 

[epicmartin7]

We really don't know what goes behind closed doors. For all we know, we could be seeing the most obscure character be in Smash Bros. that comes from the ballot. Sakurai can really be unpredictable sometimes. The roster we have right now is pretty much unpredictable. Who really expected WFT, Villager, Robin, Dark Pit, Lucina, Bowser Jr., Ryu and mother****ing Duck Hunt Dog?

I honestly think that we are really in for some surprises on who will be added to the roster. Mostly characters coming out of left field and that are the least expected. King K. Rool might still have a chance, or he is deconfirmed all together. Time will vastly tell on who is added to the roster. Maybe King K. Rool is being worked on, or some other character like Captain Rainbow. Who really knows at this point.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Nintendo should have the Star Wars license from Disney then add this guy:

The salt would be plentiful.

 

[Starlight_Lily]

i wonder if he's ever considered hakkun.
i'm serious, i think it's a forgotten and overlooked gem

He probably did, seeing as he himself seems to also be a Nintendo fan. After all the amount of times I have seen a character and think they'd make a great addition to Smash is ridiculous.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Also Marvel license and add this chick:

Someone has to manage all them S.W.O.R.D.S.

 

[DMurr]

Ok, we can drop it. I think at the end of the day we all agree to about the same thing anyway, and that’s that we can’t really predict what we’re going to get.

My point is this, though: I disagree that the Nintendo fans aren’t going to be the primary results of the ballot. The ones we know are popular are in-fact popular, and that’s going to show through, despite the sheer number of people the online ballot reached. Do I think we’re definitely getting K. Rool? No. Definitely getting Isaac? No. That’s not what I’m saying.

Ignoring botted votes then (which you can program to fill out somewhat randomly, or at least possibly differentiate enough so they aren't caught by the program (depending on how much work is actually being done in "Counting" the votes. This isn't a Florida recount situation).

I’m actually not sure what you mean by this. I think you might’ve missed something you meant to say.. I know it’s really late there.

You are getting too nitpicky with definitions. @ Burb already explained what I meant.

No it's VERY clear that he's saying they were ALL popular and demanded. Sorry for the bold, I don't know how to make it any clearer. You can't separate a part of it when the sentence (and the version that Soma translated) as it clearly indicates that both factors applies to all three characters. You can't say all of it applies to two of them, and then half it applies to the other. That doesn't make any sense. The only explanation is that fan polling (mine included) is inefficient in actually capturing the same data that Sakurai and his team are capturing. Is it 100% useless? No. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that it's a real possibility that we won't get characters that we say as shoo-ins, and that all of us need to keep that in mind. Right now, there's no evidence to say definitively one way or the other.

Lol, bold is aggressive, Dust. I know you aren’t intending to be a jerk, just making your point clear.

I will say in response that proper grammar and the way people speak are not one in the same.

I kind of agree but for different reasons. This ballot will carry over for Smash 5. Smash 5 can easily have Isaac and King K. Rool, as newcomers. Like I mentioned in one of my posts, this happened with Wario and the Villager. They are one of the "stars" of the new game, being unveiled with the game's first trailer. I think for DLC they are going to need to pick more overall popular characters as they need to aim for the lowest denominator. Most hardcore fans will buy anything they release.

New Leaf was a recent title, and Town and City came out not too long before. For Smash 5, assuming there’s no new Golden Sun game, Isaac’s most recent game is still 2010. K. Rool hasn’t been in a game since what, 2008? That’s already 5-7 years from this point in time, and the next game won’t be out for a while. This goes into a whole other argument, though, away from the ballot and more about the next game, so I won’t continue down this direction.

Source?

What? Why do I need a source? You’re the one that said it. Look, this is what I’m talking about:

It's not very good data, but my Japanese friends who play and own Smash and my American coworkers have no idea who K. Rool is. I showed them the Mii Costume and they said "Why did they make a crocodile into a Mii costume?"

The only way to resolve the issue is to assume that there is a divide between what hardcore Smash fans want and the general population of gamers. We can't ignore that there is some confirmation bias with all the polling and data we create.

Apparently DustIn must’ve said it in a private chat, since I can’t seem to find it, but he also stated that K. Rool as a Mii costume came from the ballot.

I said you can’t argue his costume is from the ballot AND say that people don’t know who he is and probably isn’t getting the number of votes we think he is.

If you say that Nintendo is just aware of his popularity, then that means it didn’t come from the ballot, and is not about what I'm saying. That’s what you said:

Because they do know.

That’s why I said this:

That still proves my point because that means they weren't looking at the ballot to pick him.

No, I don’t know why K. Rool was picked. It could’ve even been one of the developers just liked the character, for all we know.


This right here is all that matters though:

The only explanation is that fan polling (mine included) is inefficient in actually capturing the same data that Sakurai and his team are capturing. Is it 100% useless? No. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that it's a real possibility that we won't get characters that we say as shoo-ins, and that all of us need to keep that in mind.

This is exactly what I've been trying to say. Like I said, we basically agree to the same idea, but I just think that the Nintendo fan votes are significant, and that we can't just say none of our favorites won't get in because the vote was open to everyone.

 

[Substitution]

Are sword fighters just a scapegoat for everything in Smash?

Is considered Satan now?

But of course. I mean, sure, most of the swordsmen have been big Nintendo names and swords is a very common weapon in fantasy (plus all the swordfighters don't play alike), but who cares? Obviously what we need is more characters who punch and kick; can't have enough of those.

 

[Starlight_Lily]

>3 stocks
>5 minutes
STOP
T
O
P

What do you not like them not using pro smash rules?

The tourney is supposed to be for fun, so they aren't going to use pro smash player rules.

Also Marvel license and add this chick:

Someone has to manage all them S.W.O.R.D.S.

What does that acronym even stand for?

 

[Burb]

Yeah, but that still doesn't change the fact that a fictional movie/book character who had been around for a long *** time before that game/movie won a poll against an actual Nintendo character and one of the most popular platformers of that era.

I don't even know why they'd have him on the poll anyways? Like was it suggested by people or were these multiple choice?

I'm baffled that anyone thought Sakurai would jump through hoops and go to like Ian Fleming's estate and be all ''Yes, may we please have James Bond shoot Mario in the face?"

Genres may have played a role in it.

Goldeneye revolutionized the FPS genre and was exclusive to the Nintendo 64. The only other competitor he'd have from fans of FPS games is Joanna Dark; and Perfect Dark never really achieved the notoriety of Goldeneye.

As amazing as Banjo-Kazooie was, 3D platformers were extremely common. Some people who played and loved Banjo might've liked some other platform mascot better. Some might've been bigger fans of Mario or DKC and went with a character from those games over Banjo. There was a lot of competition.

 

[Naoshi]

What do you not like them not using pro smash rules?

3 stocks would take longer than 5 minutes, especially in a 4 player free for all.

 

[Luigi The President]

To be honest, Sakurai is not gonna dismiss the top most voted newcomer for an "EPIC SURPRISE CHARACTER"