NintenZone Social Thread: Shovel Knight Amiibo Hype Catastrophe (feat. Swamp)

[Cutie Gwen]

O_O

I think I'll drop Robin a spot now.

Robin represents 2 vital things in FE, magic and weapon durability, the latter isn't gone for good as Fates still makes staves have limited use. Ike's last game? FE10. Marth's? FE12. Roy's FE6. The argument wasn't how Robin's not likely to return but how Ike's nost likely staying here

 

[PushDustIn]

Etika has a moment of clarity.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Dark Pit's the worst newcomer. He DID have an impact on development time, on music! I'm convinced it's DPit's fault Galacta Knight's theme isn't in!

 

[Curious Villager]

Can't really say much about most to least favourite as I don't really dislike any characters really.

But my most played characters tend to be these guys.


I do kinda find these guys a little annoying to fight though.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Favourite and least favourite additions in all 4 games!
64: Kirby, Yoshi
Melee: Marth, Pichu
Brawl: Sonic, Pit
4: Shulk, Dark Pit
I like Kid Icarus Uprising, but I don't like Pit in smash, maybe because of 'HAYAYAYAAAAA' PTSD

 

[Frostwraith]

Dark Pit's the worst newcomer. He DID have an impact on development time, on music! I'm convinced it's DPit's fault Galacta Knight's theme isn't in!

If that's supposed to be a joke, it's not funny.

Dark Pit's theme is ported directly from KIU. Porting a music file hardly affects the development of the game. Plus, music doesn't really affect the development of the game itself, as it's done by an entirely different group of people. Musical composers and arrangers don't usually have any involvement with the programming or debugging (unless they happen to be sound programmers), after all.

Etika has a moment of clarity.

That is kinda old already. lol

But yeah, it's unusual to see him not overhyping stuff. (Though, I think he's a bit forced at times and exaggerates on purpose, but who knows...?)

Robin represents 2 vital things in FE, magic and weapon durability, the latter isn't gone for good as Fates still makes staves have limited use. Ike's last game? FE10. Marth's? FE12. Roy's FE6. The argument wasn't how Robin's not likely to return but how Ike's nost likely staying here

Playing as Robin is kind of like playing FE in Smash. lol

I think that's one of the points for his below-average mobility. When playing him, you can't rush in with guns blazing.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

If that's supposed to be a joke, it's not funny.

Dark Pit's theme is ported directly from KIU. Porting a music file hardly affects the development of the game. Plus, music doesn't really affect the development of the game itself, as it's done by an entirely different group of people. Musical composers and arrangers don't usually have any involvement with the programming or debugging (unless they happen to be sound programmers), after all.


That is kinda old already. lol

But yeah, it's unusual to see him not overhyping stuff. (Though, I think he's a bit forced at times and exaggerates on purpose, but who knows...?)


Playing as Robin is kind of like playing FE in Smash. lol

I think that's one of the points for his below-average mobility. When playing him, you can't rush in with guns blazing.

That WAS a joke, yes. Second, I joked about how the development of Dark Pit stopped the team adding themes, I doubt his theme wouldn't have been in if he wasn't, it's one of the most wellknown themes in the franchise.

I found out Lucina does Marth's Critical Hit animation in Smash. That's ****ing lazy, they give her an awkward unique animation for Shield Breaker, but they give her Marth's Critical animation from FE1?

 

[Frostwraith]

I found out Lucina does Marth's Critical Hit animation in Smash. That's ****ing lazy, they give her an awkward unique animation for Shield Breaker, but they give her Marth's Critical animation from FE1?

Well, to be fair, in FEA, she doesn't quite have a unique set of animations. A lot of her animations are shared by the Swordmaster class.

Besides, I don't think it's "lazy" because the development team was obligated to spend as least resources as possible into the clones. Remember: she was meant to be a costume for Marth. Her model was designed with Marth's animations in mind.

Her Counter animation when initiating the move and her Shield Breaker animation, while unique to her, are clear alterations of Marth's animations. The only unique animations she has, like other clones, are for taunts and win poses. Those are likely less troublesome to produce because they have no offensive hitboxes.

The Shield Breaker animation likely wasn't too altered to avoid hitbox dissonance. The Final Smash has a set of several animations that transition into each other, so it's a more difficult task to alter the animations.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Well, to be fair, in FEA, she doesn't quite have a unique set of animations. A lot of her animations are shared by the Swordmaster class.

Besides, I don't think it's "lazy" because the development team was obligated to spend as least resources as possible into the clones. Remember: she was meant to be a costume for Marth. Her model was designed with Marth's animations in mind.

Her Counter animation when initiating the move and her Shield Breaker animation, while unique to her, are clear alterations of Marth's animations. The only unique animations she has, like other clones, are for taunts and win poses. Those are likely less troublesome to produce because they have no offensive hitboxes.

The Shield Breaker animation likely wasn't too altered to avoid hitbox dissonance. The Final Smash has a set of several animations that transition into each other, so it's a more difficult task to alter the animations.

The thing she copies is spinning her sword in a circular motion before rushing at the foe. no hitbox required

 

[Frostwraith]

The thing she copies is spinning her sword in a circular motion before rushing at the foe. no hitbox required

Way to not read what I said here:

The Final Smash has a set of several animations that transition into each other, so it's a more difficult task to alter the animations.

The animations transition into each other.

Initiation animation (in which she spins the sword) -> rushing forward animation -> attack animation

If you alter the first animation, you'd have to ensure she would transition well into the second animation. The development team likely didn't think as necessary and, honestly, it's not a big deal. It's just a flashy start-up animation for a super move.

Sure, she's copying Marth, but isn't she copying Marth in pretty much the entire moveset?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Way to not read what I said here:



The animations transition into each other.

Initiation animation (in which she spins the sword) -> rushing forward animation -> attack animation

If you alter the first animation, you'd have to ensure she would transition well into the second animation. The development team likely didn't think as necessary and, honestly, it's not a big deal. It's just a flashy start-up animation for a super move.

Sure, she's copying Marth, but isn't she copying Marth in pretty much the entire moveset?

WELL EXCUUUUUUUUUUUUSE ME FROSTWAITH!

My complaint is that the altered some animations yet felt that this was unneccesary. ****, if I directed the next game, I'd either cut Lucina and Dark Pit or revamp them, because they feel too samey

 

[PushDustIn]

Almost at 100 likes for Source Gaming! Go like it! Share with your friends!

I edited 3 articles tonight. Wrote part of one, and I should be able to finish the Little Mac translation after dinner (if my cat, Kuma, lets me).

 

[Frostwraith]

WELL EXCUUUUUUUUUUUUSE ME FROSTWAITH!

My complaint is that the altered some animations yet felt that this was unneccesary. ****, if I directed the next game, I'd either cut Lucina and Dark Pit or revamp them, because they feel too samey

What did you expect from clone characters made from alt costumes with tight budget and resource limitations?

Of course, they feel samey. Hardly any work was put into them, because resources were allocated to more important stuff.

One of the things in mind when the clones were designed was to avoid spending too much time with them. They're meant to be bonus content, thus weren't warranted any special treatment besides being slight variations on existing movesets.

That's the entire point of their existence. They are samey because they WERE designed to be samey, precisely to avoid spending more resources in them. The more samey they feel, the easier it is to balance them, thus the more time is given to the rest of the game, which is what mattered the most.

I can only imagine: if people ***** at the 1% of the game that was thrown in and hardly had any attention by the development team, I shudder to think what would've happened if the developers had decided to spent more time and budget on them.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

What did you expect from clone characters made from alt costumes with tight budget and resource limitations?

Of course, they feel samey. Hardly any work was put into them, because resources were allocated to more important stuff.

One of the things in mind when the clones were designed was to avoid spending too much time with them. They're meant to be bonus content, thus weren't warranted any special treatment besides being slight variations on existing movesets.

That's the entire point of their existence. They are samey because they WERE designed to be samey, precisely to avoid spending more resources in them. The more samey they feel, the easier it is to balance them, thus the more time is given to the rest of the game, which is what mattered the most.

I can only imagine: if people ***** at the 1% of the game that was thrown in and hardly had any attention by the development team, I shudder to think what would've happened if the developers had decided to spent more time and budget on them.

Thing is, Dr Mario felt different. Dark Pit and Lucina feel a tiny bit different. Dark Pit felt different because his arrows are different. Lucina felt different because she didn't kill as early. These are the only clones to feel 99.9% identical to their counterparts in Smash history

 

[Frostwraith]

Thing is, Dr Mario felt different. Dark Pit and Lucina feel a tiny bit different. Dark Pit felt different because his arrows are different. Lucina felt different because she didn't kill as early. These are the only clones to feel 99.9% identical to their counterparts in Smash history

You know why Dr. Mario feels more different?

Because he's a veteran. He already had a clear moveset concept thanks to his previous appearance in Melee, thus it was easier to implement the ideas even under tight resource restrictions.

Lucina's concept is being Marth without the tipper and that's it. A newcomer friendly version of Marth for those who don't want to worry about tippers.

Dark Pit was the last character added to the game and only has a major difference in the Final Smash. He had the least work put into.

And like I said, them being 99% the same was the point of their inception to avoid spending resources that were necessary for the rest of the game.

Of course, the 1% difference affects gameplay even if slightly, so they have to get their own slots, given the game is strictly designed as:
- a slot = different character, different gameplay
- a costume = aesthetic change, same gameplay

I've said this a million times already, but it seems people don't quite get the point.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You know why Dr. Mario feels more different?

Because he's a veteran. He already had a clear moveset concept thanks to his previous appearance in Melee, thus it was easier to implement the ideas even under tight resource restrictions.

Lucina's concept is being Marth without the tipper and that's it. A newcomer friendly version of Marth for those who don't want to worry about tippers.

Dark Pit was the last character added to the game and only has a major difference in the Final Smash. He had the least work put into him.

And like I said, them being 99% the same was the point of their inception to avoid spending resources that were necessary for the rest of the game.

Of course, the 1% difference affects gameplay even if slightly, so they have to get their own slots, given the game is strictly designed as:
- a slot = different character, different gameplay
- a costume = aesthetic change, same gameplay

I've said this a million times already, but it seems people don't quite get the point.

I call BS based on Melees clones. I also believe Lucina was the last clone asshe has the least differences. Lucina used to be the exact same as MArth including damage percent iirc at launch. Why did they even get the differences? Dark Pit was because of canonical reasons, which is BS considering other characters, including NPC have a ****ton of noncanon stuff in their moves. Lucina's model was shorter. Why not alter some of this stuff in patches? Lucina now deals more damage, but why not change her other things? Dark Pit and Pit have had no changes in patches iirc. The thing is, Sakurai also said we shouldn't complain. We are the people who buy the game, meaning we, as consumers, have every right to complain

 

[True Blue Warrior]

If Dark Pit remained an alt, he would have had a victory animation where he grins cheesily and gives the V-sign.

 

[Neo Zero]

Saw this earlier and laughed.

Good morning Zone of Nintendo

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Saw this earlier and laughed.

Good morning Zone of Nintendo

This was around the last few weeks of PoTD iirc
IT'S AFTERNOON YOU PLEB

 

[Frostwraith]

I call BS based on Melees clones. I also believe Lucina was the last clone asshe has the least differences. Lucina used to be the exact same as MArth including damage percent iirc at launch. Why did they even get the differences? Dark Pit was because of canonical reasons, which is BS considering other characters, including NPC have a ****ton of noncanon stuff in their moves. Lucina's model was shorter. Why not alter some of this stuff in patches? Lucina now deals more damage, but why not change her other things? Dark Pit and Pit have had no changes in patches iirc. The thing is, Sakurai also said we shouldn't complain. We are the people who buy the game, meaning we, as consumers, have every right to complain

They got the differences during the development of Marth and Pit. Key word being "during". They were balancing Marth and Pit, they had the alts implemented, they decided to split them when the alts were given slight differences.

Big ****ing deal for what are very minute changes that, at worst, took a week out of two ****ing years of development and counting, considering DLC and patches.

Also, Sakurai has stated that Lucina was the first clone to be implemented in the game. Dr. Mario was the second. (Which logically means Dark Pit was the last.)

It really is telling how many people here have no idea what it means to be part of game development, where ideas can come and go. Sakurai even stated that Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm was made by one of the Bandai Namco designers in spare time and they decided to put it to use. This is a kind of thing that happens a lot in long projects with big development teams.

At the very least, you could read interviews or something. Not just with Sakurai about Smash. Read more interviews with other developers about other games.

 

[DoodleDuck97]

Saw this earlier and laughed.

Good morning Zone of Nintendo

Ah. Those were the days.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

They got the differences during the development of Marth and Pit. Key word being "during". They were balancing Marth and Pit, they had the alts implemented, they decided to split them when the alts were given slight differences.

Big ****ing deal for what are very minute changes that, at worst, took a week out of two ****ing years of development and counting, considering DLC and patches.

Also, Sakurai has stated that Lucina was the first clone to be implemented in the game. Dr. Mario was the second. (Which logically means Dark Pit was the last.)

It really is telling how many people here have no idea what it means to be part of game development, where ideas can come and go. Sakurai even stated that Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm was made by one of the Bandai Namco designers in spare time and they decided to put it to use. This is a kind of thing that happens a lot in long projects with big development teams.

At the very least, you could read interviews or something. Not just with Sakurai about Smash. Read more interviews with other developers about other games.

So I'm not about to complain? Alright, they only had a few weeks, then why aren't patches doing a thing? I'm sorry but being told I can't complain about a product I spent 60 euros on because of how nitpicky this one complaint is just angers me

 

[Neo Zero]

So I'm not about to complain? Alright, they only had a few weeks, then why aren't patches doing a thing? I'm sorry but being told I can't complain about a product I spent 60 euros on because of how nitpicky this one complaint is just angers me

I imagine that they aren't touched more than they have been because they likely wouldn't want to completely change how the character feels for the people who already do use them.

I imagine for a patch cycle, most of the work goes into the new DLC char(s) and the stages, then balance work/changes on the older characters and stages would come next.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I imagine that they aren't touched more than they have been because they likely wouldn't want to completely change how the character feels for the people who already do use them.

I imagine for a patch cycle, most of the work goes into the new DLC char(s) and the stages, then balance work/changes on the older characters and stages would come next.

Didn't Falco get changed because of patches? I remember hearing something about windboxes. If the people already play as Lucina or Dark Pit, the changes between them and their counterparts are so minimal they can just switch over to them!

 

[Frostwraith]

So I'm not about to complain? Alright, they only had a few weeks, then why aren't patches doing a thing? I'm sorry but being told I can't complain about a product I spent 60 euros on because of how nitpicky this one complaint is just angers me

I have no idea why patches haven't altered the clones to be more different, but I'd guess it's an intentional design choice.

Pretty much all of Marth's changes also applied to Lucina. Pit and Dark Pit have yet to receive any overhauls.

I do think, however, that people are making so much of a big deal out of the clones. It's not a deal breaker.

Melee had it much worse with clones. 6 out of 26. This time, you only have 3 full clones out of a roster of 55, DLC included.

Putting things in perspective: half of the clones in a roster a little over twice the size of Melee's that is still growing in number.

Yes, people are blowing this **** out of proportion.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I have no idea why patches haven't altered the clones to be more different, but I'd guess it's an intentional design choice.

Pretty much all of Marth's changes also applied to Lucina. Pit and Dark Pit have yet to receive any overhauls.

I do think, however, that people are making so much of a big deal out of the clones. It's not a deal breaker.

Melee had it much worse with clones. 6 out of 26. This time, you only have 3 full clones out of a roster of 55, DLC included.

Putting things in perspective: half of the clones in a roster a little over twice the size of Melee's that is still growing in number.

Yes, people are blowing this **** out of proportion.

Technically I'm only complaining about 2, I don't mind Dr Mario, in Melee he was literally a stronger Mario with a different projectile but here he genuinely feels different. Thing is, I'm drawing all my negativity to this as this is my only complaint that was just brought up. Had we talked about customs or balance, I'd be complaining about those

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Didn't Falco get changed because of patches? I remember hearing something about windboxes. If the people already play as Lucina or Dark Pit, the changes between them and their counterparts are so minimal they can just switch over to them!

Only Pit to Dark Pit or vice versa. They play almost identically.

Lucina is played very differently just due to the lack of the tipper and her different range. She's shorter than Marth overall.

Sakurai seems to make as equal changes to characters and their clones as well. I've been noticing that during the patch notes people come up with. Which is silly, since I'd like to see Dark Pit and Pit have more differences. Just simple damage, at the very least. Perhaps how strong the knockbacks are. I get why they're samey and understand that, but making them play a little more differently would be nice.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Only Pit to Dark Pit or vice versa. They play almost identically.

Lucina is played very differently just due to the lack of the tipper and her different range. She's shorter than Marth overall.

Sakurai seems to make as equal changes to characters and their clones as well. I've been noticing that during the patch notes people come up with. Which is silly, since I'd like to see Dark Pit and Pit have more differences. Just simple damage, at the very least. Perhaps how strong the knockbacks are. I get why they're samey and understand that, but making them play a little more differently would be nice.

Lucina has different range? If anything the tipper is a bonus

 

[A Distant Demon]

Sakurai cant win. "Clones took up too much dev time!" Or, "clones arent different enough!"

Blegh


Favorite newcomer (with customs)
one of my most wanted. Very fun but i never ever use customs :x
(without customs) i fell in love with xenoblade from smash speculation and moves are all really fun

Least favorite: all of the movesets bore me except swordsman. But swordsman is so bad it doesnt really matter.

Not to mention the miis were handled really badly for online :/

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Sakurai cant win. "Clones took up too much dev time!" Or, "clones arent different enough!"

Blegh


Favorite newcomer (with customs)
one of my most wanted. Very fun but i never ever use customs :x
(without customs) i fell in love with xenoblade from smash speculation and moves are all really fun

Least favorite: all of the movesets bore me except swordsman. But swordsman is so bad it doesnt really matter.

Not to mention the miis were handled really badly for online :/

Dev time is a dumb complaint, I only joked about it

How the **** did Sakurai not think "I'll make Miis have their default look on their artwork for online play"?

 

[CroonerMike]

Went into work thinking I'd be on time as usual today...I walk in and my boss says, "you're here early!" Happy and excited. I'm like "what do you mean it's 9 am." Then I looked at the clock, an hour early. Wtf.

 

[Neo Zero]

I imagine it wasn't that simple, especially with names, custom sets and Mii sizes.

 

[Frostwraith]

Lucina has different range? If anything the tipper is a bonus

Lucina has slightly less range than Marth.

Her attacks are stronger than Marth's non-tipper hits, but weaker than Marth's tipper hits.

We've known this for over a year, as Sakurai elaborated on this when she was revealed. And yes, she feels different as a result. I play both Marth and Lucina somewhat regularly.

With Marth, you have to play with the distance between you and the foe. Landing the tipper or not can make a difference in KOing or not the foe.

Lucina doesn't have that and you can be more aggressive when playing. She may not KO as early as Marth's tipper hits, but she can KO faster than Marth's non-tipper hits, so you do not need to pay as much attention to the distance. You have a bigger margin for error at the cost of potential early KOs.

Dark Pit has few differences, the major one being the Final Smash. Against certain characters, the Electroshock Arm's different knockback angle can be advantageous compared to Pit's Upperdash Arm. Notably against Little Mac and is also efficient against Rosalina & Luma. Pit's Upperdash Arm, on the other hand, does have the advantage of KOing more consistently.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Lucina has slightly less range than Marth.

Her attacks are stronger than Marth's non-tipper hits, but weaker than Marth's tipper hits.

We've known this for over a year, as Sakurai elaborated on this when she was revealed. And yes, she feels different as a result. I play both Marth and Lucina somewhat regularly.

With Marth, you have to play with the distance between you and the foe. Landing the tipper or not can make a difference in KOing or not the foe.

Lucina doesn't have that and you can be more aggressive when playing. She may not KO as early as Marth's tipper hits, but she can KO faster than Marth's non-tipper hits, so you do not need to pay as much attention to the distance. You have a bigger margin for error at the cost of potential early KOs.

Dark Pit has few differences, the major one being the Final Smash. Against certain characters, the Electroshock Arm's different knockback angle can be advantageous compared to Pit's Upperdash Arm. Notably against Little Mac and is also efficient against Rosalina & Luma. Pit's Upperdash Arm, on the other hand, does have the advantage of KOing more consistently.

As someone who mained Marth I felt no differences outside of "That would have killed if I were Marth"

 

[Frostwraith]

As someone who mained Marth I felt no differences outside of "That would have killed if I were Marth"

The same could be said if you landed a non-tipper hit and you could think "That would've KOed if I was Lucina." It's a two-way street.

Lucina's purpose is this: Want to play Marth? Don't like the tippers? Play Lucina.

I fail to see what's so wrong about her existence. She's there and she provides more options for the players. I feel that I can't complain about this.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Cloney characters have been in every Smash Bros game and I expect that to never change.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The same could be said if you landed a non-tipper hit and you could think "That would've KOed if I was Lucina." It's a two-way street.

Lucina's purpose is this: Want to play Marth? Don't like the tippers? Play Lucina.

I fail to see what's so wrong about her existence. She's there and she provides more options for the players. I feel that I can't complain about this.

She just feels unneccesary, maybe I'm just miffed that the roster was disappointing to me

 

[Frostwraith]

Cloney characters have been in every Smash Bros game and I expect that to never change.

Most fighting games also have clones.

Yes, Smash is different in many aspects, but still retains similar concepts at its core.

Clones are no different.

With the exception of Ganondorf (who himself was a very exceptional case even compared to the other Melee clones), all clone characters actually make a lot of sense being clones. Those characters are inherently similar to the characters they're based on.

Dr. Mario - Mario with a doctor suit
Falco - Fellow Star Fox pilot
Young Link / Toon Link - Younger version Link / Different incarnation of Link
Pichu - Baby form of Pikachu
Roy - Fellow sword-wielding Fire Emblem series protagonist
Lucas - Fellow PSI-using EarthBound series protagonist
Lucina - Blood related to Marth, disguised as him as well
Dark Pit - Literal clone of Pit, possesses the exact same physique and combat abilities

She just feels unneccesary, maybe I'm just miffed that the roster was disappointing to me

Now that's something I can agree on.

Ah, it's human nature to find a scapegoat for whatever wrongs they perceive...

 

[Neo Zero]

Luckily for all of us, whether you hated the roster or not, it just continues to get better with DLC.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Most fighting games also have clones.

Yes, Smash is different in many aspects, but still retains similar concepts at its core.

Clones are no different.

With the exception of Ganondorf (who himself was a very exceptional case even compared to the other Melee clones), all clone characters actually make a lot of sense being clones. Those characters are inherently similar to the characters they're based on.

Dr. Mario - Mario with a doctor suit
Falco - Fellow Star Fox pilot
Young Link / Toon Link - Younger version Link / Different incarnation of Link
Pichu - Baby form of Pikachu
Roy - Fellow sword-wielding Fire Emblem series protagonist
Lucas - Fellow PSI-using EarthBound series protagonist
Lucina - Blood related to Marth, disguised as him as well
Dark Pit - Literal clone of Pit, possesses the exact same physique and combat abilities


Now that's something I can agree on.

Ah, it's human nature to find a scapegoat for whatever wrongs they perceive...

I don't think Lucas counts as a clone

I still have other complaints about the game