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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Thegameandwatch

Smash Journeyman
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I second that. Pokémon Sword/Shield has a grand total of 4 double battles in the entire game, and they're always the most fun of each run.

There's also like, 5 or so multi-battles with Hop, but watching his Wooloo/Dubwool flail about isn't nearly as engaging as strategizing yourself using your own team.
I heard that there is only double battles in the Ghost Gym if it’s about base Scarlet and Violet.

The fact that Battle Facilities are gone meant that DLC is the only way to have more than that outside of online.
 

DarthEnderX

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Because at that point it was too late. Almost 2 years in when the system desperately needed a killer app like MK.

Remember MK8 in 2014 months after the release PS4/Xbox One and less than year before the NX was announced. If Mario Kart 8 was Day One/Launch Season like Switch, U would've sold gangbusters.
That doesn't make any sense.

If MK would have made people by a console they didn't want at launch, it would have made them buy a console they didn't want 2 years later.
 

BrawlX10

Smash Journeyman
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Idk why I’m just now replying to this, but lemme just say: I highly doubt Ultimate will be the end after how much it sold.
Even if we get a Ultimate Deluxe there's going to be a Smash 6 eventually even if it's 25 years from now or something.
"Last Smash game in the forseable/near future?" would be a far better title for the video personally, imo.
 
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SharkLord

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So I might as well say it over here.

The third party poll has resumed it's development but some changes had to happen. Originally I was going to do exactly the same kind of poll. I'd give character choices for every new IP. For the first party poll, that had a clear beginning and end, so it was easily doable.

But third parties are literally endless. I couldn't do it. I either had to change the poll or not release it. Returning franchises will still have lots of characters to choose from. But new franchises will be done in a different way from here on.

Each company will have a page with all their IPs on it. I will be asking what IP you want to get a character in Smash. It's not as exact as it was before and I know we wouldn't get as much detailed data as before. But it was too big to do at the scale I was attempting. At least it was too big to do on my own.

So yeah, when the third party poll is out, you'll be voting for characters with returning franchises and IPs for brand new franchises.

Any questions or concerns?
After this poll is wrapped up, would it be worth having a poll for most popular characters from the top newest IPs? Of course, some series reps are non-negotiable - We're not getting Rayman fighters without the title character, or Doom without Doomguy, so it depends the results. But still, if we see something like Tales of or League of Legends getting strong results, where there's some clear obvious choices but a wide variety of candidates to choose from, it might be worth having a sort of epilogue poll to review who people were thinking of when they voted for that series.

After a break, of course. I can tell this poll alone is a lot of work, and I'd imagine you wouldn't want to dive right back in immediately afterwards.
 

Schnee117

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That doesn't make any sense.

If MK would have made people by a console they didn't want at launch, it would have made them buy a console they didn't want 2 years later.
I mean, having Mario Kart at launch gives an actual reason to buy the system at launch. No one wanted to buy the system because the marketing was awful and there was **** all on it that actually appealed to people outside of small enthusiast forums. By the time Mario Kart and Smash were out it was way too late because the only other mass appeal game that released post launch was Super Mario 3d World.

We joke that PS3 and PS5 have no games but the Wii U almost quite genuinely had no games.
 

Noipoi

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I mean, having Mario Kart at launch gives an actual reason to buy the system at launch. No one wanted to buy the system because the marketing was awful and there was **** all on it that actually appealed to people outside of small enthusiast forums. By the time Mario Kart and Smash were out it was way too late because the only other mass appeal game that released post launch was Super Mario 3d World.

We joke that PS3 and PS5 have no games but the Wii U almost quite genuinely had no games.
This is Game & Wario erasure
 

BrawlX10

Smash Journeyman
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Yeah, at this point, Smash as a series sells way too highly for it to ever end.
I mean i think it's not completely impossible that the series eventually "ends", i'm talking about 100+ years from now at absolute minimum as the series might've completely peaked by then and just turn it into live-service like MultiVersus or interest simply vanishes and there's a more popular crossover game that takes it's place, but like eding the series at Ultimate feels waay too early to me, i think Smash as a series still has a lot to explore/offer to justify at very least a Smash 6.
 

Nabbitfan730

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That doesn't make any sense.

If MK would have made people by a console they didn't want at launch, it would have made them buy a console they didn't want 2 years later.
People didn't want the console at launch because they wasn't worthwhile to play. Nothing

Not sure if you were there but the Wii U was notorious for Droughts especially 2012-13. Don't let Switch Season fool you. You had wait from Nintendo Land/NSMBU from Nov 2012 until Aug 2013 for something like Pikmin 3. Not 3D Mario, Zelda, AC or even Metroid or Kirby. Pikmin. C-tier title.

Imagine if the Switch only came with 1-2 Switch and then you had wait for 1 year for Splatoon 2 in 2018. It was that dire.

Rayman was meant to be the big Wii U seller got suddenly became Multiplatform which killed hype for the game and Wii U

It was only when MK8 came out we started getting consistent releases which was 2 years in.

Trust me, having a killer app matters. Zelda was niche series relatively before BOTW became a launch title which sold Switches like crazy. The Switch release selling more than the system itself at the time.
 
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BuckleyTim

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Jun 11, 2019
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I really don't think that's a very good idea, considering, you know
View attachment 400135
Hopefully Smash being Smash means it'd have a much longer life, but still.
Smash ain't 100 percent immune to this already when you count dlc. Sure as hell can't buy the dlc for smash 4 anymore... Which begs the question of if/when the switch eShop might pass on in a similar matter.
 

DynamicSmasher

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I really don't think that's a very good idea, considering, you know
View attachment 400135
Hopefully Smash being Smash means it'd have a much longer life, but still.
Nintendo aren't against continually updating games as time (see: Splatoon, Arms, Animal Crossing). Sometimes it can go well(like in Splatoon 1), sometimes not so well(like... basically all of the Mario sports games lol). I don't think Sakurai would go for that approach though, myself. Just doesn't really seem his style.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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If Zelda was ever a niche series, it stopped being one in 1998 when Ocarina of Time came out; it and Pokémon supplanted Yoshi and the Kong's as Nintendo's major non-spinoff IP's in the West along with Mario and it's basically been that way since. Heck one the reasons many friends of mine didn't buy Wii U's was because there was no new LoZ game on it and the only one that eventually did come out became a dual release on the Switch.

Really, I think BotW and the Switch had the perfect symbiotic relationship as far as software/hardware. The former's scale and the long wait since Skyward Sword made it a must buy (and which got people's attention on the Switch), but the latter's means gave many fans (especially older one's with less time to actively game) an ideal method to experience it with far more practicality than the Wii U version.
 
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Thegameandwatch

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Trust me, having a killer app matters. Zelda was niche series relatively before BOTW became a launch title which sold Switches like crazy. The Switch release selling more than the system itself at the time.
Outside of the Wii, Zelda has almost always been in the top ten in terms of best selling games on Nintendo’s home consoles. Sometimes top 5 such as in the N64 and GameCube (Wind Waker was 4th).
 

fogbadge

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Zelda was niche series relatively before BOTW
How dare you! the zelda series has been an icon of gaming for decades with many people often including N64 titles among the best ever game lists. many of the series entries are considered among the best games on their consoles. the zelda fandom is huge, I should know I've been listening to them bicker for decades, way bigger than any cult classic fandom. the call it a niche series is not just factually inaccurate but it comes across as wilfully ignorant.
 

Louie G.

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Zelda wasn't quite niche, but it also wasn't THIS big. BOTW and TOTK took it to the stratosphere, so there's a kernel of truth to what's being said here but it's masked in a bit of an exaggeration.

I mean, we (apparently, correct me if I'm looking at the wrong numbers) went from 8.5 million copies sold of Twilight Princess, even 14 million between both the N64 and 3DS releases of Ocarina of Time collectively, and completely shattered these records with BOTW now clocking in at around 33 million units and TOTK at over 20 million. I don't think Nabbit's choice of words here was the best but I will acknowledge that they said "relatively". Relative to how it's performing now, that statement wouldn't be wrong.

And no, that isn't really equally true of Mario and Pokemon. Mario Odyssey and Mario Wonder, although they performed well, haven't reached the heights of previous entries like Super Mario Bros and the first two New Super Mario Bros titles. The Switch Pokemon games still haven't beat the originals on Game Boy. Both of these series moved units in the tens of millions on a consistent basis. But BOTW and TOTK has left every other Zelda game in the dust.

It's true that just about every series does better on the Switch, but let's not downplay how much of a glow-up this generation has been for Zelda specifically. "Niche" may not be the right word but putting that aside, the sentiment holds to a degree. How much of that hinged on BOTW being a launch title I'm not sure, but I'm sure that it helped at least a little bit.

To wrap it back around to Smash, I feel like seeing this much unprecedented growth for an already popular series should reignite some optimism toward new Zelda content in the next game. It's still hard to figure out exactly how that will pan out, but it really feels like the right time if any.
 
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KingofPhantoms

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As far as I'm aware, Zelda was already quite popular back it's early days, and Ocarina of Time just elevated it to insanely high levels.

Heck, for years just after it's release and well prior to BotW ever being released, it was tough to find a discussion online about some of the best video games ever made or even fairly high profile website rankings of video games that didn't argue or at least mention Ocarina of Time as a contender for one of, if not the best video game of all time.

Even before then, it also had a Saturday morning cartoon adaptation, and afterwards, games like Wind Waker and Twilight Princess were huge hits in their own right, and Toon Link and occasionally even Toon Zelda were used fairly heavily in Nintendo's marketing during the Wii U and 3DS eras.

It might not go back all the way to the arcade era like a certain plumber's franchise, but saying that the Legend of Zelda was a "niche" series before BotW is like saying that Mario was a niche series before Super Mario Galaxy.
 

LiveStudioAudience

Smash Master
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Really, I'd say it's a case of the Switch Zelda sales finally allowing its financial importance to essentially match its previously existing cultural importance. LoZ was always talked about, typically had games in the top 10 sales of consoles, and was part of the (oddly appropriate) triumvirate of Nintendo mascots after 1998. What BotW did was elevate its actual numbers to ones competing with and/or outright eclipsing Mario and Pokémon with individual games.

In many ways it was a consistent bronze medalist now in contention for gold, which is definitely notable.
 
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Louie G.

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In many ways it was a consistent bronze medalist now in contention for gold, which is definitely notable.
And perhaps it's a testament to the Switch's recipe for success, but the fact that Zelda can put up these kind of numbers and not even be the console's greatest "winner" is pretty wild. Not that it's a competition, but I have been asking myself who got the biggest boost from the Switch overall.

Animal Crossing was already hitting the ten million benchmark on 3DS with New Leaf, but the heights the series has been elevated to with New Horizons are remarkable with 45 million copies sold. Going from a beloved albeit somewhat quietly successful series to a household name made Animal Crossing reach that same level of financial importance AND stand up to that trio's cultural importance within this console cycle, IMO standing right alongside them nowadays.

A matter of circumstance definitely helped - for New Horizons it was COVID, for BOTW perhaps it was being that big launch window title - but I'm sure both series have garnered millions of new loyal fans that will continue to keep their credibility level with that of Mario and the rat.
 
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LiveStudioAudience

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And perhaps it's a testament to the Switch's recipe for success, but the fact that Zelda can put up these kind of numbers and not even be the console's greatest "winner" is pretty wild. Not that it's a competition, but I have been asking myself who got the biggest boost from the Switch overall.

Animal Crossing was already hitting tens of millions on 3DS with New Leaf, but the heights the series has been elevated to with New Horizons are remarkable with 45 million copies sold. Going from a beloved albeit somewhat quietly successful series to a household name made Animal Crossing reach that same level of financial importance AND stand up to that trio's cultural importance within this console cycle, IMO standing right alongside them nowadays.

A matter of circumstance definitely helped - for New Horizons it was COVID, for BOTW perhaps it was being that big launch window title - but I'm sure both series have garnered millions of new loyal fans that will continue to keep their credibility level with that of Mario and the rat.
Fortunate circumstance at just the right time is often an underrated factor for many franchises that eventually became so big. I actually think Smash (particularly early on) benefited from the 2D fighting game scene otherwise struggling after the collapse of arcades in the late 90s and before the rise of online netplay in the late 00s. SSB was an unorthodox style series and often only on one console, but it was a sustained and public 2D fighting game in an era where 3D ones had much of the focus and many of the major players had cut back their output or were struggling in their identity. Melee specifically ended up having a shine and credibility that not only had Nintendo fans playing it but also those in the FGC, and the franchise eventually gained so much momentum that even traditional 2D fighters coming back didn't really derail its success.
 

Nabbitfan730

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I'm not saying Zelda wasn't popular, it was.

It wasn't just was crazy as the Switch Era. It went from Nintendo All-Star to reaching Mario/Pokemon/AC of levels.

The highest selling before Twilight Princess on the Wii at 7 million til 30 mill selling even more than Super Mario Odyssey. TOTK not too far off either.

The importance of a killer app.

In many ways it was a consistent bronze medalist now in contention for gold, which is definitely notable
*Silver. He wasn't that low.

Brozne is like Kirby, Metroid, Star Fox etc
 
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Thegameandwatch

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Toon Link and occasionally even Toon Zelda were used fairly heavily in Nintendo's marketing during the Wii U and 3DS eras.
Same with Twilight Princess Link who is still used when Nintendo wants to use the traditional Link design.
I'm not saying Zelda wasn't popular, it was.
Although the wording of niche makes it seem worse then what actually was before BOTW.
 
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HyperSomari64

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Gold: Mario (and maybe the Yoshi and Wario sub-series), Legend of Zelda, Splatoon, Animal Crossing, Pikmin, Kirby, Pokémon [this if we see the "major" series on the Nintendo Museum's mural]
Silver: Donkey Kong, Metroid, Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, The Miis, Star Fox?
Bronze: The rest

Edit: Here's the secret top ranks of Intellectual Properties of Nintendo
Diamond: Monkey Magic
Platinum: Hanafuda
 
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The Stoopid Unikorn

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I'm not saying Zelda wasn't popular, it was.

It wasn't just was crazy as the Switch Era. It went from Nintendo All-Star to reaching Mario/Pokemon/AC of levels.
That's true, but I wanna point out AC also soared during the Switch era.

Before New Horizons, it was basically "does strongly in handhelds but can barely reach a third of those numbers otherwise", making it inconsistent.

Zelda was bigger than AC before which... kinda wild to say it might be the opposite today.

*Silver. He wasn't that low.

Brozne is like Kirby, Metroid, Star Fox etc
I think the idea is that Pokemon was gold and Mario was silver.
 
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fogbadge

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For future reference niche in the context of a product means something tailored to a small and specific part of a market

which is probably why we use it synonymously with obscure
 
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Louie G.

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which is probably why we use it synonymously with obscure
And this is arguably a mistake that the community frequently makes, because niche does not mean obscure in every context.

Something can be more niche and still recognizable, or culturally resonant. I'm not saying this is correct of Zelda, but I don't think it's far fetched to say that maybe Metroid for example was for more of a niche audience at some point in time. But I don't think Metroid is obscure, for any number of reasons. Samus is a gaming icon and Metroid is a critically acclaimed, vocally beloved Nintendo series. Super Metroid is similarly regarded as a Top 10 game of all time, like Ocarina of Time. Those points contradict its obscurity, but to a certain point its more difficult gameplay and darker themes put it in a 'niche' unlike more generalized, mass appeal / family friendly Nintendo brands.

An "obscure" character was Marth at the time of his debut, because most of us had not heard of him yet or played his untranslated games. Or Ness. By virtue of being in Smash these characters beat obscurity over time. But Earthbound still remains a "niche" cult classic. Not an obscure game... whether through Smash, or its influence on the indie scene, or simply its reputation online and among fans of Nintendo. An obscure game is like... Sutte Hakkun or Tomato Adventure. A niche game is like, F-Zero GX.

That's how I see it at least. I think niche is one of the most misused / misunderstood words frequently cited in the community and unfortunately I doubt I can do anything to circumvent that lmao. But I think we need to stop responding so negatively about it, as if it's explicitly an insult. Context is important.
 
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DynamicSmasher

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Gold: Mario (and maybe the Yoshi and Wario sub-series), Legend of Zelda, Splatoon, Animal Crossing, Pikmin, Kirby, Pokémon [this if we see the "major" series on the Nintendo Museum's mural]
Silver: Donkey Kong, Metroid, Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, The Miis, Star Fox?
Bronze: The rest

Edit: Here's the secret top ranks of Intellectual Properties of Nintendo
Diamond: Monkey Magic
Platinum: Hanafuda
Man, Star Fox is really in a rough spot. Arguably in a worse spot than Metroid during the Wii U era- Metroid at least wasn't stuck remaking the same game over and over again. Well, I guess at least Star Fox 2 came out, so that's something.
 

Swamp Sensei

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I think we need to keep in mind that today's sales figures differ to the sales figures of the past.

Sure 7 million may not seem as impressive today, but back then, the industry as a whole was much smaller. It was unheard of for most games to sell anywhere near that much. The industry has grown and changed. There are more gamers than ever. Sure 33 million > 7 million, but let's not pretend 7 million wasn't a huge deal back then. (Heck it still is.)
 
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