Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[TCT~Phantom]

I’m kind of exhausted of talking about the cuts stuff. People act like if there are cuts, which even with Sakurai’s half statement is no guarantee, they will thanos snap the roster. Will we get everyone is here next time? I don’t know, no one knows. If you asked me what they would probably do, I would say a minimalist portto a beefier port to the switch successor in 2024-5 is the most likely thing to happen. Even then, we could easily not see a “new” smash for a decade almost. Unless Sakurai wants to come back again and wrangle everything, I’d say the earliest I’d bet on a new smash is towards the end of the decade. Maybe announced earlier, but even then who knows.

One thing I will bring up is if we do get cuts, we likely won’t get the nuking of the roster some people want for some reason. Outside of tech issues, only two completely unique characters have ever been cut: one had code that implied it was a last minute tough choice, and the other had their company imploding at the time. In the event we do get cuts, all evidence points to a few clones/semi clones that didn’t make it in time or a few lower priority vets. If you expect cuts well in the double digits, that’s arguably more optimistic than the people that are expecting no cuts.

The one line that people who are super in favor of cuts love to omit from that Sakurai comment is the fact he asks would fans even want cuts? Everyone was here was done because picks like ICs, Snake, and Wolf were huge requests to come back. Mewtwo was the biggest request in Smash 4. He clearly knows fans don’t like cuts. Does that mean we will never see cuts again? No. But it also is clearly not an endorsement of thanos Snapping the roster.

I could say more on this topic but it’s exhausting. Some people seem to have set up cutting characters as their hill to die on, when it just isn’t that popular of an idea. Obviously, you have a right to cling to whatever ideas you do so long as you are not actively harming others. As long as you are not gatekeeping others as an excuse to make speculation “more niche” or harassing people over petty bull****, I genuinely could care less about what you speculate on.

 

[pupNapoleon]

You know, if you think about it, every returning veteran is technically a clone of themselves from the previous game. Depending on how assetts can be ported over, then theoretically, they all could be easy to make. Nevertheless, it is true that characters who were overly similar to another character were historically the ones most likely to get dropped. Then again, given how Echoes are a quick fix whenever it comes to balancing, maybe they're not so expendable.


Indeed, when I saw that first trailer with Inkling, I feared the possibility that we'd suddenly lose Mega Man or someone else from Smash4. I was totally not expecting the complete opposite to happen.

At any rate, I'm not sure how long Everyone Is Here can keep going, but what I do think is that, as things stand now, Ultimate is a very flawed game overall, one which still has a lot of untapped potential. I really would like to see the full roster continue for at least one more game, ironing out the flaws of Ultimate and giving us a variety of fun things to actually do with all these fantastic characters before it all gets squandered away.

I have a few lists started, but since I'm on the phone with the insurance company (hours...), I'll create this to add some levity to my life. I wish I could find my other lists from the pasts, or even where I posted them.

CHANGES TO ULTIMATE DELUXE:

A) ADDITIONS TO ROSTER
1) Missing Nintendo
a- All-Stars: Dixie Kong, Captain/Toad, Eevee, Meowth, Waluigi, Paper Mario
b- Important echoes: Tom Nook, Octoling, DK Jr, Impa, Tetra, Birdo, Baby Mario and Baby Luigi
2) Buffing some franchises that make too much money to not have better representation (DK, Ring Fit, Zelda)
3) As well as some big names who are missing/ Second Attempts: Balloon Fighter, Excite Bike, Isaac, Chibi Robo, Chorus Kids, Dragaux, Ayumi, Takamaru
4) Creating more relationships with old and new third parties: Blizzard-Activision, Level-5, Ubisoft, Sony
5) Buffing Fighting Genre Representation: Scorpion/Sub-Zero (the missing one of the big 3), Sukapon, Nightmare, Sol Badguy
6) Some Missing Legends: Frogger, Lara Croft,
7) More Western Characters: Master Chief, Crash, Rayman
8) Missing Gaming Hardware: Agumon (90s craze of digital pets), Angry Birds (mobile gaming)
9) Above all, having over 100 unique fighters

B) CHARACTERADJUSTMENTS
1) Character alterations (incomplete list below)
a- Mario; using Cappy, which acts as one more Jump
b- Link: using the Four Champions, if they are not playable, as well as more runes
c- DK: Barrel Throw, Barrel Blast recovery
d- Toon Link: using the wand
e- Ganondorf: float, Dead Mans Volley
f- Young Link: Fierce Deity Final Smash
g- Peach: Variation from Daisy, both having legitimate final smashes
h- Luigi: Ice Ball
i- Dr Mario: Tetris Style Final Smash
j- Mewtwo: visually buffed attacks
k- Let's just say, no duplicate FS
l- Samus: able to move by rolling around
m- Robin: Chrom removed from FS
n- Jigglypuff: FS as the sing move
o- Wii Fit Trainer: Final Smash would force all characters to do aerobics (cue hilarious visuals); damage ensues
2- Differentiate the Echoes, minorly (Richter throws Daggers, Dark Samus uses AT attacks)
3) Character alts: more than 8, with more fun costumes as well
4) Miis 'Deluxe"- Shovel Knight, Quote, The Knight (who is Hollow), Geno
5) Use more icons: Mii's movesets would show near Avatar, etc

C) ONLINE PLAY
1) Rollback Netcode, this is one we know for sure
2) Doing that Well
3) Utilize for All Modes (Add for Smackdown, etc)

D) GAME MODES:
1) Coin Battle
2) More New options (Anything from Mario Kart Battle Mode could work, or from Splatoon, etc)
3) Smash Run
4) Legit Tag Team Mechanic (Could add addiitonal move, either way, would make it crucial for tournaments)

E) STAGES:
1) Bring Back the couple of missing ones
2) Include Highly Requested ones (ex: Bowser's Castle, Mario Party Board)
3) Iconic Games: Tetris, Q-Bert, Sims, GTA
4) More Variation: The Scrolling ones, for example, changed the entire premise of the battle, as did KoF stage, etc
5) Everyone gets a Home Stage (Dr Mario, ROB...)

F) SINGLE PLAYER MODE:
1) Return of Subspace, but this would be released as DLC, serially, to avoid spoilers
2) Event Editor/Creator (the Mario Maker of Events, they could never end: and this would separate 'events' from 'Spirits'

G) TOURNAMENTS
1) Fund them
2) Publicize them
3) School Program Update
4) Endorce Online Content Creators (bonus)


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Anyone else want to add to this?

 

[Wonder Smash]

Yeah, but we have Sakurai on record stating that everyone is here probably isn't returning... While I absolutely don't agree with the unnecessary trolling certain other users have been doing regarding the topic, everyone coming back, especially the 24 new characters Ultimate brought on top of that, is just plain unreasonable to say it's likely...

Not only is it better to expect the worst with these things, but in this scenario expecting the worst is the realistic scenario, cos bringing everyone back will probably be way harder than it's worth...

Whilst you could play the crappy "anything could happen" nonsense, I could say that about Goku joining smash lol.

The only reason anything can happen is passed around is when people are trying to defend a scenario which they want to happen, but can't do any better cos it flat out is unrealistic, which is what then prompts them to play that excuse, as it can't be refuted...

Except it can if you analyze the excuse itself, like I just did... We can argue semantics all day, but the reality of the situation is, that it's clear Sakurai is pretty certain that Ultimate is never happening again...

Even if we want to discount Sakurai's word, the mere idea of 89 characters returning in a completely new instalment, at least a quarter of which being third parties, is a little unreasonable to put at anything higher than a 25% chance of re-occurring, right? A port maybe, but even that depends on how the third parties rights were gathered...

It just comes down to which is more likely; cuts or no cuts. Based on what's Sakurai has been saying lately, he's mentioned that there's a high possibility of cuts but never straight up confirmed that there will.

But keep in mind that Sakurai also likes to catch people by surprise. He would never admit if there wasn't any cuts, so expecting anything concrete out of him at this time is kind of pointless.

I personally wouldn't mind a port with additional stuff, though. It could be another Mario Kart 8 situation.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

It just comes down to which is more likely; cuts or no cuts. Based on what's Sakurai has been saying lately, he's mentioned that there's a high possibility of cuts but never straight up confirmed that there will.

But keep in mind that Sakurai also likes to catch people by surprise. He would never admit if there wasn't any cuts, so expecting anything concrete out of him at this time is kind of pointless.

I personally wouldn't mind a port with additional stuff,, though. It could be another Mario Kart 8 situation.

I mean I seem to recall an article after smash 4 was finished that he was discussing who was most likely to be cut in the development cycles

and then blindsided us with Everyone Is Here

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Guess Goku confirmed for Smash

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Discussion about cuts got me thinking, does anyone else find it weird people advocate for the Smash roster to be smaller for no discernable gain? It's not even the classic "I hate this character I want em gone" or like, they want gameplay reworks or new modes that would justify such a sweeping cut. It's like "let's openly advocate for the roster to be cut down to half the size and let's tout this as a good thing"??????? Like...

why

Like people say that cuts are inevitable anyway and to that I say
1) The next game is not going to have barely more characters than Melee, I can pretty much guarantee you
2) Why does what is going to happen that's objectively a bad thing on its own without any compensation equate to something one wants

 

[Gengar84]

Alright, I thought I would share my ideas for Sarah Kerrigan from StarCraft. I know any Blizzard character is controversial after all that happened but I still love their characters. If Blizzard either addresses their issues or their IP gets taken up by another company, I would love to see some of them in Smash. Until then, I can understand nobody really wanting anything to do with Blizzard. With that out of the way, here are my ideas for Kerrigan.

Sarah Kerrigan
"I am the Swarm. Armies will be shattered. Worlds will burn. Now at last, on this world, vengeance shall be mine. For I am the Queen of Blades."

Artist: PANSUP KIM​

Introduction
Starcraft is a science fiction real time franchise developed by Blizzard Entertainment. While the series is mostly known for being a PC game, the original game did release on the Nintendo 64 as Starcraft 64 in 2000. The franchise received a sequel in 2010 which spawned several expansions. It remains one of the most popular and influential games in its genre to this day.

Who is Sarah Kerrigan?
Prior to her infestation, Sarah Kerrigan began as a psychic terran soldier known as a ghost operative. During a mission, Kerrigan was abandoned by her superior, Arcturus Mengsk, when things began to look bad and was left to die. Instead, Kerrigan became infested by an alien insectoid race known as the Zerg and became one of them. In time, Kerrigan rose to become the leader of the entire Zerg race and swore revenge on the one who betrayed her.

Why should Kerrigan get in Smash?
Kerrigan is an iconic character that would offer a lot to a game like Smash Bros. For one, she is both a female and a villain, two things which Smash is still lacking. Starcraft also has some history with Nintendo with Starcraft 64. Finally, I believe Sarah Kerrigan is the best character to represent the RTS genre due to her ability to control the Zerg. RTS games are all about resource management and creating an army of units to crush the opponent's base. This is something I think Kerrigan can utilize in Smash. Starcraft also really meshes well with the Metroid universe and would make for some really cool interactions if there is any kind of story mode in this game.

Potential Moveset

Spoiler

Special Traits / Other:
Kerrigan would be the first true summoner character in Smash. All of her special attacks other than Psionic Shift summon various Zerg units to aid her in battle. In order to balance this, I decided to incorporate an element of resource management similar to her home series.

Vespian Gas - As the battle goes on, Kerrigan builds up resources that she can spend to use all of her special attacks minus Psionic Shift (which doesn’t cost anything since it is her recovery move). Being a simple attack, Zergling Rush attack uses the least amount of gas while the Hydralisk/Defiler/Mutalisk uses the most.

Weak Attacks:
A Combo – Chain Reaction
Kerrigan attacks with a flow of electricity. Like Megaman’s A combo, this is a projectile attack and deals no knockback. In multiplayer, the electricity can flow to other nearby enemies if they are close enough.

Forward Tilt – Kinetic Blast
A small short range explosion from her hand

Up Tilt – Razor Swarm
Kerrigan sends out several mini shockwaves diagonally upwards

Down Tilt
A low claw swipe

Running A
A running double claw swipe

Smash Attacks:
Forward Smash – Leaping Strike
Kerrigan lunges forward and stabs the opponent with her wings

Up Smash
Kerrigan thrusts her wings upward and stabs above her

Down Smash – Impaling Blades
Kerrigan slams the ground causing spikes to rise from the ground on both sides

Specials:
Neutral B – Hydralisk /Defiler / Mutalisk
Similar to Dedede’s original side B that summoned Waddle Dees, Kerrigan summons one of a variety of Zerg units that wander along the battlefield and attack opponents. The hydralisk is the most basic of these. They travel along the ground and attack any opponent nearby. The defiler doesn’t actively attack but instead inflicts various status effects on anyone that gets too close with a cloud of poisonous gas. Finally, the mutalisk flies through the air and attacks any airborne opponents in its range.

Forward B (Grounded) – Zergling Rush
Kerrigan summons a pair of Zerglings to rise from the ground and charge forward for a bit before diving back into the ground.

Forward B (Aerial) – Scourge
If performed in the air, Kerrigan hatches a pair of Scourge who fly forward and explode into any opponent they touch.

Up B – Psionic Shift
Kerrigan surrounds herself in energy then dashes in the chosen direction, damaging anyone she touches

Down B - Lurker
Similar to Snake’s mine attack, Kerrigan summons a Lurker to burrow in the ground right next to her. Anyone who walks over this location is attacked with a rising spike attack for a short while. Like the Hydralisk, only one Lurker can be summoned at a time.

Grabs:
Grab
Kerrigan impales the opponent with her wings

Pummel
Kerrigan grabs the opponent’s face and shocks it with energy

Forward Throw
Kerrigan kicks her opponent forward

Back Throw
A simple toss backward

Up Throw
Kerrigan throws her opponent upwards followed by a quick lightning attack

Down Throw
Kerrigan slams her opponent into the ground

Aerial Attacks:
Neutral A
Kerrigan surrounds herself with electric energy and attacks around her, much like Mewtwo

Forward A
A forward claw swipe

Back A
A backward thrust kick

Up A
A somersault kick

Down A – Quantum Ray
Shoots a beam of energy diagonally downward

Final Smash: Apocalypse
Kerrigan surrounds herself in a radius of energy. Any opponent that comes within range is struck by an explosion which triggers a cinematic cutscene. This scene mimics the final few seconds of the Betrayal on Kerrigan scene. After landing the initial strike, the opponent is transported to a ruined planet where he or she is surrounded by zergs on all sides. As they reach the target, the screen turns to black. It then returns to the normal battle screen and the opponent takes massive damage and knockback.

 

[Garteam]

It actually does. What you are saying is the next game is going to be "the same but worse, and a little bit of different content," or "something completely different from the ground up."

Worse is subjective. A Smash 6 with fewer characters is less quantiful than Ultimate, sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's doomed to be worse. Roster size and quality are disconnected. Tobal 2 has 200 playable characters, but it's not exactly a good dame.

Let's say, for example, the next Smash had 65 characters at launch but fixed all of the common criticisms of Ultimate. Rollback netcode is implemented, movement speed is increased, platforms are reworked to be less of a hazard and detriment to the flow of gameplay, certain veterans are reworked to be more in line with the design philosophies of the various newcomers introduced, and single-player options are generally expanded across the board. Is this hypothetical Smash a better game than Ultimate? For some, yes. For others, no. It's really going to come down to subjective taste and whether the observer personally believes what is gained outweighs what is lost.

I want Everyone is Here to happen again too. If I were directing Smash 6 and had total creative control, I'd probably just forego creating a new game entirely and make Ultimate Deluxe to ensure that Everyone is Here happens again. However, I can also acknowledge that Smash 6 potentially having less characters than Ultimate doesn't mean it is dead on arrival.

 

[Sucumbio]

Anyone watch the indie direct?

 

[chocolatejr9]

Anyone watch the indie direct?

I didn't get a chance to, but honestly it's nice knowing they had OMORI as the "one more thing" of the Direct. Game's getting some RESPECT, I tell you.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Anyone watch the indie direct?

At this rate we may as well consider Silksong a collective fever dream or something

I don’t even think it exists anymore

 

[chocolatejr9]

At this rate we may as well consider Silksong a collective fever dream or something

I don’t even think it exists anymore

I mean... didn't people say that about the Cuphead DLC?

 

[Sucumbio]

I may look into omori seems interesting at least

 

[chocolatejr9]

I may look into omori seems interesting at least

Good. But quick disclaimer: it gets into some heavy subject matter. So... viewer discretion.

 

[Trevenant]

It just comes down to which is more likely; cuts or no cuts. Based on what's Sakurai has been saying lately, he's mentioned that there's a high possibility of cuts but never straight up confirmed that there will.

But keep in mind that Sakurai also likes to catch people by surprise. He would never admit if there wasn't any cuts, so expecting anything concrete out of him at this time is kind of pointless.

I personally wouldn't mind a port with additional stuff,, though. It could be another Mario Kart 8 situation.

I guess I agree with that... I think we should probably lean towards the idea of some since 89 characters as well as newcomers in a new smash game isn't exactly an easy task for even a non game dev to realize. Outside of a port, but I doubt Nintendo would be willing go through all the stuff they have to do in order to bring a port to the table, when they could just make a new experience for people. Unless they future proofed that, and included it in the contracts for all the companies, but I think due to how large a task Ultimate is, they probably had to make sure to tread more carefully for certain characters, so even if they did have the idea for a future port ridiculously early on, they'd probably rightfully assume that the companies would probably rather have more money straight out the gate so they just made sure to keep negotiations within Ultimate specifically... Food for thought.

 

[PeridotGX]

I have a few lists started, but since I'm on the phone with the insurance company (hours...), I'll create this to add some levity to my life. I wish I could find my other lists from the pasts, or even where I posted them.

CHANGES TO ULTIMATE DELUXE:

A) ADDITIONS TO ROSTER
1) Missing Nintendo
a- All-Stars: Dixie Kong, Captain/Toad, Eevee, Meowth, Waluigi, Paper Mario
b- Important echoes: Tom Nook, Octoling, DK Jr, Impa, Tetra, Birdo, Baby Mario and Baby Luigi
2) Buffing some franchises that make too much money to not have better representation (DK, Ring Fit, Zelda)
3) As well as some big names who are missing/ Second Attempts: Balloon Fighter, Excite Bike, Isaac, Chibi Robo, Chorus Kids, Dragaux, Ayumi, Takamaru
4) Creating more relationships with old and new third parties: Blizzard-Activision, Level-5, Ubisoft, Sony
5) Buffing Fighting Genre Representation: Scorpion/Sub-Zero (the missing one of the big 3), Sukapon, Nightmare, Sol Badguy
6) Some Missing Legends: Frogger, Lara Croft,
7) More Western Characters: Master Chief, Crash, Rayman
8) Missing Gaming Hardware: Agumon (90s craze of digital pets), Angry Birds (mobile gaming)
9) Above all, having over 100 unique fighters

B) CHARACTERADJUSTMENTS
1) Character alterations (incomplete list below)
a- Mario; using Cappy, which acts as one more Jump
b- Link: using the Four Champions, if they are not playable, as well as more runes
c- DK: Barrel Throw, Barrel Blast recovery
d- Toon Link: using the wand
e- Ganondorf: float, Dead Mans Volley
f- Young Link: Fierce Deity Final Smash
g- Peach: Variation from Daisy, both having legitimate final smashes
h- Luigi: Ice Ball
i- Dr Mario: Tetris Style Final Smash
j- Mewtwo: visually buffed attacks
k- Let's just say, no duplicate FS
l- Samus: able to move by rolling around
m- Robin: Chrom removed from FS
n- Jigglypuff: FS as the sing move
o- Wii Fit Trainer: Final Smash would force all characters to do aerobics (cue hilarious visuals); damage ensues
2- Differentiate the Echoes, minorly (Richter throws Daggers, Dark Samus uses AT attacks)
3) Character alts: more than 8, with more fun costumes as well
4) Miis 'Deluxe"- Shovel Knight, Quote, The Knight (who is Hollow), Geno
5) Use more icons: Mii's movesets would show near Avatar, etc

C) ONLINE PLAY
1) Rollback Netcode, this is one we know for sure
2) Doing that Well
3) Utilize for All Modes (Add for Smackdown, etc)

D) GAME MODES:
1) Coin Battle
2) More New options (Anything from Mario Kart Battle Mode could work, or from Splatoon, etc)
3) Smash Run
4) Legit Tag Team Mechanic (Could add addiitonal move, either way, would make it crucial for tournaments)

E) STAGES:
1) Bring Back the couple of missing ones
2) Include Highly Requested ones (ex: Bowser's Castle, Mario Party Board)
3) Iconic Games: Tetris, Q-Bert, Sims, GTA
4) More Variation: The Scrolling ones, for example, changed the entire premise of the battle, as did KoF stage, etc
5) Everyone gets a Home Stage (Dr Mario, ROB...)

F) SINGLE PLAYER MODE:
1) Return of Subspace, but this would be released as DLC, serially, to avoid spoilers
2) Event Editor/Creator (the Mario Maker of Events, they could never end: and this would separate 'events' from 'Spirits'

G) TOURNAMENTS
1) Fund them
2) Publicize them
3) School Program Update
4) Endorce Online Content Creators (bonus)


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Anyone else want to add to this?

That's just a new game at that point. What does it have in common with Ultimate, UI design?

 

[ZelDan]

I do feel people seem to take for granted just how much had to be sacrificed to make "everyone is here" happen, or how much more would have to be sacrificed to make it continue> Ultimate has been the only game to do "Everyone is here" and that game already had to hold back quite a bit on new base game content (ie less newcomers and MUCH less new stages, opting for spirits over trophies, no homerun contest at launch, etc.). How much do you think we'd get with a Smash 6 that has to bring back everything mother****ing Ultimate had?

then what about a Smash 7 that has to bring back everything this hypothetical Smash 6? Smash 8 from Smash 7? etc etc

As great and talented as Sakurai and his team are, even they still have their limits, and while Ultimate managed to turn out alright with an "everyone is here" at play game-qualitywise and balance-wise for the most part, I don't know if I have much confidence this could continue for much longer, or could even work out as well in a Smash 6. or if it could theoretically work out, it'd probably have to be at the expense of Smash doing more new or innovative stuff with the formula (and by "innovative" I don't mean outright genre-changing or anything like that), and this...isn't exactly very exciting to me either. As someone who has put over a thousand hours into Ultimate and will likely continue to put in countless more, the idea of having to wait years for the enxt Smash only to have it be "Smash Ultimate again but with a few new things sprinkled on top" sounds incredibly underwhelming. The idea that we could never see a new or fresh-feeling Smash again just to continue beating the Ultimate horse dead for the next god knows how many years is seriously gross to me.

 

[DarthEnderX]

They've been made for Ultimate, but not for the next game. I'm not a developer, but I wouldn't think that remaking vets is really that much easier than making new characters since under a new engine all their mechanics, models, and animations have to be remade and rebalanced anyway

The design work is still already done though. Those characters still have fully formed movesets that are just going to be 90% replicated in any future game. It's just a matter of RE-making the character again in the new engine(if the game even bothers to update the engine).

And even if you don't consider the ability to add more characters or content in place of a cut character, there are still other advantages to cutting such as making balancing easier/more effective

Nobody cares about that but the FGC players. And nobody likes the Smash FGC.

 

[Yamat08]

How much do you think we'd get with a Smash 6 that has to bring back everything mother****ing Ultimate had?

You speak as if they'd have to redo all the work put into Ultimate. But as DarthEnderX already pointed out....

The design work is still already done though. Those characters still have fully formed movesets that are just going to be 90% replicated in any future game. It's just a matter of RE-making the character again in the new engine(if the game even bothers to update the engine).

Even if the models and such couldn't be easily ported up, the design phase is effectively already done for that character (aside from MAYBE getting a move update here or there). And if I recall correctly, the concept designs, and especially the back-and-forth with the original creators to get it right, consumes far more time than the actual programming.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

I do feel people seem to take for granted just how much had to be sacrificed to make "everyone is here" happen, or how much more would have to be sacrificed to make it continue> Ultimate has been the only game to do "Everyone is here" and that game already had to hold back quite a bit on new base game content (ie less newcomers and MUCH less new stages, opting for spirits over trophies, no homerun contest at launch, etc.). How much do you think we'd get with a Smash 6 that has to bring back everything mother****ing Ultimate had?

then what about a Smash 7 that has to bring back everything this hypothetical Smash 6? Smash 8 from Smash 7? etc etc

As great and talented as Sakurai and his team are, even they still have their limits, and while Ultimate managed to turn out alright with an "everyone is here" at play game-qualitywise and balance-wise for the most part, I don't know if I have much confidence this could continue for much longer, or could even work out as well in a Smash 6. or if it could theoretically work out, it'd probably have to be at the expense of Smash doing more new or innovative stuff with the formula (and by "innovative" I don't mean outright genre-changing or anything like that), and this...isn't exactly very exciting to me either. As someone who has put over a thousand hours into Ultimate and will likely continue to put in countless more, the idea of having to wait years for the enxt Smash only to have it be "Smash Ultimate again but with a few new things sprinkled on top" sounds incredibly underwhelming. The idea that we could never see a new or fresh-feeling Smash again just to continue beating the Ultimate horse dead for the next god knows how many years is seriously gross to me.

I’ve seen some people mention that EiH sacrificed so much of the traditional smash content we would get in order to get it, but there’s another factor that imo influenced it even more: the state of affairs of the Wii U and late 3ds.

It’s no secret that smash pulls from what is the new hotness at the time the roster is made. Melee had a ton of content from the 64 era. Brawl was loaded with GBA/GC stuff, 4 pulled from Wii and DS stuff. Now, what did Ultimate have to pull from when the roster was decided in Late 2015-Early 2016 when the development started in earnest? Late Wii U and 3ds stuff… yikes. I know there were a few big releases on the Wii U and 3ds, but it’s telling what new content was represented: New Leaf, Splatoon, and Gen 7 which wasn’t even out at the time of planning. The reason the newcomers were fan favorites and EiH happened is because there wasn’t much new stuff to pull from.

Furthermore, while we did get less new stages for arguably the same reason as I listed above, so many stages were done from the ground up for this game. Many stages not on the Wii U version had to be done in HD. Excluding the 64 stages and the 43 stages that returned from Smash 4, that’s still 52 stages that needed to be modeled in HD that they couldn’t just port over easily if mh math is right (it’s 12:30 here and I’ve had a rough day). Around 50 stages they needed to model, test, and design. Yes, only 4 at launch were new stages, but it’s not like creating 50 stages in HD that could support 8 player smash and stage morph is a lack of new content. The redesigns for stages like Venom, Kongo Falls, Rainbow Cruise, Gerudo Valley, Fountain of Dreams, Summit, Shadow Moses, and Magicant look gorgeous. It’s easier to not have to re invent the wheel and have to research and design new stages from scratch when you can bring so many fan favorite stages back and pad out the stage numbers as a result.

Speaking of new content, we got a whole new single player campaign, which people had been asking for since 4 chose not to do one, individualized classic modes, an updated training mode, and event mode got beefed up into spirits. It’s not like the game is skimping on single player content: it has arguably the most the series has seen.

I know some people lament the loss of trophies, but a few pages back I discussed how trophies have always been a logistical nightmare. You need to create models if you don’t have high enough quality ones on hand, create a paragraph summarizing the character, translate that paragraph into multiple languages, make sure the description is approved of for third party trophies, make sure the release dates are accurate for each region, and more. If Ultimate had more trophies than Smash 4, we could easily see 900+ trophies having to be made. Cutting trophies just makes sense going forward since they are a drain on resources for something admittedly niche. Do you really want to spend that much time and resources on something that really has no effect on gameplay?

I get being worried that every smash game post ultimate is just going to be ultimate 2 electric boogaloo. It might seem boring for Nintendo to not do something new and exciting and play it safe over and over. But Ultimates situation was not sacrificing a ton of content on the alter of EiH: it was using pre existing content to ignore having to dig for scraps to represent the Wii U and 3ds era when both were either gasping for air or winding down. Could they have done stages for games like Star Fox Zero? Sure, but it seems Nintendo wanted to push that era begin. They could have done content for the sake of it, but the vast majority of smash content isn’t like that. The next smash almost certainly will not have to lean on nostalgia the same way. The switch has been a massive success and there is so much you can pull from to represent going forward.

The design work is still already done though. Those characters still have fully formed movesets that are just going to be 90% replicated in any future game. It's just a matter of RE-making the character again in the new engine(if the game even bothers to update the engine).

This as well. Bringing back characters is infinitely easier than making new ones unless somehow the system can’t handle it ala Ice Climbers or Pokémon Trainer. You already have a good chunk of the work done already.

 

[pupNapoleon]

So we could have other equally or more popular/important characters as clones/echoes that help represent other franchises?

--

I think shaving a couple clones + maybe Corrin off the FE roster could pacify a lot of people for a minimal loss. The core of the FE roster to me should be Marth/Lyn/Ike/Robin + now Byleth. Then add like 1 clone, say Lucina since she's easiest and most memorable, with Awakening being an especially important game for the series (whether or not it's a personal favorite, which it isn't really for me). With these five uniques I feel you get the right blend of popularity and importance to the franchise along with enough variance in playstyles. And five uniques really doesn't feel overboard for a long-running, relevant franchise with a ton of characters to choose from. Also if anyone wants to argue for any of Corrin, Azura, Tiki, Anna, etc. then go for it, but they just miss the cut IMO.

"Shaving a couple of clones + Corrin" is about as good as doing nothing.
You aren't considering that just porting Smash 4 to Ultimate, adding back in just a couple of unique fighters (Squirtle, Ivysaur, Snake, Ice Climbers), we only had 6 newcomers.
Cutting that few characters is absolutely useless, it would allow for what- three more spirits to be made in the stead?

 

[ZelDan]

I’ve seen some people mention that EiH sacrificed so much of the traditional smash content we would get in order to get it, but there’s another factor that imo influenced it even more: the state of affairs of the Wii U and late 3ds.

It’s no secret that smash pulls from what is the new hotness at the time the roster is made. Melee had a ton of content from the 64 era. Brawl was loaded with GBA/GC stuff, 4 pulled from Wii and DS stuff. Now, what did Ultimate have to pull from when the roster was decided in Late 2015-Early 2016 when the development started in earnest? Late Wii U and 3ds stuff… yikes. I know there were a few big releases on the Wii U and 3ds, but it’s telling what new content was represented: New Leaf, Splatoon, and Gen 7 which wasn’t even out at the time of planning. The reason the newcomers were fan favorites and EiH happened is because there wasn’t much new stuff to pull from.

Furthermore, while we did get less new stages for arguably the same reason as I listed above, so many stages were done from the ground up for this game. Many stages not on the Wii U version had to be done in HD. Excluding the 64 stages and the 43 stages that returned from Smash 4, that’s still 52 stages that needed to be modeled in HD that they couldn’t just port over easily if mh math is right (it’s 12:30 here and I’ve had a rough day). Around 50 stages they needed to model, test, and design. Yes, only 4 at launch were new stages, but it’s not like creating 50 stages in HD that could support 8 player smash and stage morph is a lack of new content. The redesigns for stages like Venom, Kongo Falls, Rainbow Cruise, Gerudo Valley, Fountain of Dreams, Summit, Shadow Moses, and Magicant look gorgeous. It’s easier to not have to re invent the wheel and have to research and design new stages from scratch when you can bring so many fan favorite stages back and pad out the stage numbers as a result.

Speaking of new content, we got a whole new single player campaign, which people had been asking for since 4 chose not to do one, individualized classic modes, an updated training mode, and event mode got beefed up into spirits. It’s not like the game is skimping on single player content: it has arguably the most the series has seen.

I know some people lament the loss of trophies, but a few pages back I discussed how trophies have always been a logistical nightmare. You need to create models if you don’t have high enough quality ones on hand, create a paragraph summarizing the character, translate that paragraph into multiple languages, make sure the description is approved of for third party trophies, make sure the release dates are accurate for each region, and more. If Ultimate had more trophies than Smash 4, we could easily see 900+ trophies having to be made. Cutting trophies just makes sense going forward since they are a drain on resources for something admittedly niche. Do you really want to spend that much time and resources on something that really has no effect on gameplay?

I get being worried that every smash game post ultimate is just going to be ultimate 2 electric boogaloo. It might seem boring for Nintendo to not do something new and exciting and play it safe over and over. But Ultimates situation was not sacrificing a ton of content on the alter of EiH: it was using pre existing content to ignore having to dig for scraps to represent the Wii U and 3ds era when both were either gasping for air or winding down. Could they have done stages for games like Star Fox Zero? Sure, but it seems Nintendo wanted to push that era begin. They could have done content for the sake of it, but the vast majority of smash content isn’t like that. The next smash almost certainly will not have to lean on nostalgia the same way. The switch has been a massive success and there is so much you can pull from to represent going forward.




This as well. Bringing back characters is infinitely easier than making new ones unless somehow the system can’t handle it ala Ice Climbers or Pokémon Trainer. You already have a good chunk of the work done already.

I hadn't really considered how the Wii U/3Ds situation may have played into Smash ultimate's base game; you could be right about that. Still EiH's impact on the base game I feel was still pretty damn significant when you consider how much stuff had to be brought back and built from the ground up, and that impact will only become bigger a thing the more the decide to do EiH, regardless of if they ever bring back trophies or not or how much easier it is to bring back characters already previously worked on.

Though speaking of older characters being easier, it is good that it has been brought up, as I too think it is silly how drastic some people think cuts will end up being or how some people think a brand new Smash game will cut, like 60 or more characters or something crazy like that, when many of them are already worked out and mostly not THAT complicated.

While I'm on the side of thinking the next Smash game will probably have cuts (and am on the side of not inherently being against it, depending on who's actually cut and what newcomers we get in return), I also think Sakurai (assuming he is still leading Smash) will want to bring back us much as he feasibly can, and thus I still think is a non-EiH Smash we would still see a large amount of the Ultimate cast return and alot of the favorites within that game, and could still easily see a non-EiH Smash have a roster of 60-something, maybe even 70-something characters. With how serious Sakurai is about pleasing fans, there's no way we should ever be getting anywhere close to a Melee or Brawl-sized roster

 

[Yamat08]

This as well. Bringing back characters is infinitely easier than making new ones unless somehow the system can’t handle it ala Ice Climbers or Pokémon Trainer. You already have a good chunk of the work done already.

And unless Nintendo goes exclusively mobile or whatever, I doubt that should be an issue going forward. Smash 3DS was the only time the series has been moved to a weaker system than the one before it.

 

[SPEN18]

The design work is still already done though. Those characters still have fully formed movesets that are just going to be 90% replicated in any future game. It's just a matter of RE-making the character again in the new engine(if the game even bothers to update the engine).

I am not a developer, so I am not going to argue too strongly about what the difference in work is between a veteran and a newcomer. But what can be said for sure is that even veterans do indeed take a quite significant amount of effort to add, and these are resources that could definitely be directed elsewhere. Even in a situation where assets could be reused, which is highly unlikely for a Smash 6 on a new console that isn't just a port/remake of Ultimate, bringing back veterans is a ton of work and in Ultimate's case it evidently took a heavy toll on the final product.

And I don't know how you can discount the difficulty of balancing the massive roster that Smash has and probably still will have even after potential cuts to the roster. But that wasn't the main point in what I was saying anyway.

--

"Shaving a couple of clones + Corrin" is about as good as doing nothing.
You aren't considering that just porting Smash 4 to Ultimate, adding back in just a couple of unique fighters (Squirtle, Ivysaur, Snake, Ice Climbers), we only had 6 newcomers.

In that post, I was talking just about the Fire Emblem roster. Which is not the area I would target for more than a few cuts, as I said in the post. And one unique + a couple of clones is not insignificant, because each and every character has a ton of work put into them, as has been noted by Sakurai before. In any event, it would be a start.

I'm not some FE hater that wants to wipe the swordwielders off the roster. FE was actually a childhood favorite of mine and I played almost all of them, so naturally I developed strong opinions on how to represent the franchise.

I don't quite understand your second statement; wouldn't having a small number of newcomers imply that bringing back the vets took a ton of work and prevented them from doing more?

--

It’s no secret that smash pulls from what is the new hotness at the time the roster is made. Melee had a ton of content from the 64 era. Brawl was loaded with GBA/GC stuff, 4 pulled from Wii and DS stuff. Now, what did Ultimate have to pull from when the roster was decided in Late 2015-Early 2016 when the development started in earnest? Late Wii U and 3ds stuff… yikes. I know there were a few big releases on the Wii U and 3ds, but it’s telling what new content was represented: New Leaf, Splatoon, and Gen 7 which wasn’t even out at the time of planning. The reason the newcomers were fan favorites and EiH happened is because there wasn’t much new stuff to pull from.

So basically they missed at least a couple of extra chances to rectify affairs for characters who evidently missed the boat in past games, like Isaac, Dixie, Saki, Lyn, etc. Perfect timing to add a bit more older stuff when the newer stuff isn't as deep. But these characters didn't even get a fully fair shot because we had to bring back all the veterans, who of course had to come as a package deal.

Regardless, this whole deal about the 3DS/Wii U situation just reinforces the idea that Ultimate was a special circumstance that is unlikely to happen again, especially since a hypothetical new game coming out years from now is going to have plenty of new and old stuff to consider for inclusion.

--

Smash 3DS was the only time the series has been moved to a weaker system than the one before it.

But moving to a more powerful console could be an issue as well since it would probably take more work to make stuff for it.

 

[Trevenant]

TBH now that I think about it, Ultimate launching without stuff like Home Run Contest etc. is probably just the tip of the iceberg in regards to sacrifices made for everyone to come back. It'd probably eventually get to a point where it interferes with the balance, and then it could even start affecting their ability to start putting attention to other basic stuff like glitches etc... Everyone is here not happening again is of course not fully a bad thing with this in mind. In an ideal world, we could just strike a perfect balance with the two and say that nothing comes at the cost of anything, but unfortunately even Sakurai and co have limits... TBH I'd rather they just focus on new characters now anyway... there are some characters who flat out have never joined smash before and trying to bring back everyone again would surely have an affect on newcomer output, even without the conception of their moveset etc in mind. Still, a full on trimming down isn't happening. 40-50 vets at least unless some other guy takes the wheel and thinks new movesets are better... Idk if it's probable that a new guy takes Sakurai's place to begin with, but maybe...

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

i do love how corrin seems to be the prime target fur cuts almost as much as the echos and half clones lmao.

i actually think characters like dr. mario or lucina are the most likely to stick because they're easy to make and first party, if anyone gets cut it's gonna be within the plethora of third party content. i'd say anything capcom or sega adjacent is safe, but watch out for square!

 

[Trevenant]

Has anyone seen this Raven Beak moveset vid from feliciafan? It does a really good job of fleshing out his character, and has really good key posing to go along with the attacks. I think I'd definitely be more interested to see how EMMI could work as trying to design a character who is usually meant to be avoided at all costs could be pretty interesting... Maybe something like Incineroar, except more rushdown like Fox... So a blend between them both and a much higher fall speed than even Fox...

Or maybe just make it Whack and Thwack the character and have all it's moves be command grabs that result in instadeath if they get hit lol.

 

[SPEN18]

i actually think characters like dr. mario or lucina are the most likely to stick because they're easy to make and first party, if anyone gets cut it's gonna be within the plethora of third party content. i'd say anything capcom or sega adjacent is safe, but watch out for square!

I mean, historically clones have been among the targets for cuts despite being easy to make. At the end of the day a lot of them are just roster padding and not given high priority. And the fact is that even clones take a good amount of effort to make, just not nearly as much as uniques.

But ya, third parties could very well be the targets for cuts. The extent remains to be seen, and it can be pretty hard to predict how negotiations with various companies will go/have gone.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Worse is subjective. A Smash 6 with fewer characters is less quantiful than Ultimate, sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's doomed to be worse. Roster size and quality are disconnected. Tobal 2 has 200 playable characters, but it's not exactly a good dame.

Let's say, for example, the next Smash had 65 characters at launch but fixed all of the common criticisms of Ultimate. Rollback netcode is implemented, movement speed is increased, platforms are reworked to be less of a hazard and detriment to the flow of gameplay, certain veterans are reworked to be more in line with the design philosophies of the various newcomers introduced, and single-player options are generally expanded across the board. Is this hypothetical Smash a better game than Ultimate? For some, yes. For others, no. It's really going to come down to subjective taste and whether the observer personally believes what is gained outweighs what is lost.

I want Everyone is Here to happen again too. If I were directing Smash 6 and had total creative control, I'd probably just forego creating a new game entirely and make Ultimate Deluxe to ensure that Everyone is Here happens again. However, I can also acknowledge that Smash 6 potentially having less characters than Ultimate doesn't mean it is dead on arrival.

A few things here...

No, size of a roster in another video game may not dictate quality. That is irrelevant to Smash. Smash is high quantity, high quality, high balance. It is irrelevant to bring up another fighting game with 2000 characters.
In many ways, for Smash, just having fewer characters is in itself a swipe to the marketing. If the character count is going to go down, then it is a slight to the marketing, and they need to find an entirely new direction to push it.

There is no reason to just 'cut a few characters,' because even going from Smash 4 to Ultimate, they only added 6 characters, and added 4 back, and just programming these ten new characters, with all the old ones, took the entire development time.

Cutting characters is a CHOICE, that is a commitment. It cannot be halfway done.

There are great videos on how 'every iteration of a series cannot be bigger than the last.' A great example of this is Ant Man, between Infinity War and End Game. Sometimes the scale has to be shrunk back down to make the next one seem bigger, and the stakes to seem real.
The reality is that 'Ultimate but different' isn't a step in any direction, just lateral, and that isn't marketable. It puts the game in far too much of a comparative state. It can be a reboot, it cam be Ultimate+, but being ~Ultimate is not an option.

I lament my inability for formulate this argument to the highest elocution at this time, because there really isn't a way around it.

That's just a new game at that point. What does it have in common with Ultimate, UI design?

It's the same game but with more. Yes, it is a new game, a directors cut.

 

[ARandomFruit]

I mean, historically clones have been among the targets for cuts despite being easy to make. At the end of the day a lot of them are just roster padding and not given high priority. And the fact is that even clones take a good amount of effort to make, just not nearly as much as uniques.

But ya, third parties could very well be the targets for cuts. The extent remains to be seen, and it can be pretty hard to predict how negotiations with various companies will go/have gone.

Currently its tied for character cuts being unique or clones with one of the clones (Young Link) just being turned into a different clone for the same character (Toon Link) anyways. I also feel like a clone character's priority just depends on the character. Roy seemed like a high priority in 4 because he was a fan favorite. I could be wrong about this though.

Also I'm sure Square won't be too bad for cuts, Cloud and Hero seem like popular enough characters to return and we got so much Square content that it seems like they aren't as stingy as it seemed before.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Also I'm sure Square won't be too bad for cuts, Cloud and Hero seem like popular enough characters to return and we got so much Square content that it seems like they aren't as stingy as it seemed before

That extra content could be because Hero/Seph/Sora were being solely licensed as DLC. They'd have to negotiate for Cloud for 4 and Ultimate at the same time, which meant compromises, one of which was probably Sephiroth being a DLC fighter.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

That extra content could be because Hero/Seph/Sora were being solely licensed as DLC. They'd have to negotiate for Cloud for 4 and Ultimate at the same time, which meant compromises, one of which was probably Sephiroth being a DLC fighter.

We got confirmation from Sakurai that the reason we didn’t get a lot of music with Cloud was because of the rights issues concerning ownership in different parts of the world. The reason the music came with Sephiroth is simply because Sephiroth was chosen and there was an opportunity to move those negotiations forward.

 

[KillerCage]

Three more days...
Then I will be 30...

 

[chocolatejr9]

I know nobody here likes the idea of FNAF in Smash, but after watching let's plays of Security Breach, I have to admit: the PizzaPlex has a lot of stage potential.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I know nobody here likes the idea of FNAF in Smash, but after watching let's plays of Security Breach, I have to admit: the PizzaPlex has a lot of stage potential.

I’m not necessarily against FNAF getting in in some form but like would I choose it over Resident Evil, Silent Hill, Fatal Frame etc.? Not at all. Though the new game does look pretty damn good I will admit.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I know nobody here likes the idea of FNAF in Smash

I just don't think indie games warrant higher than Miis/ATs.

He'd make a good Nintendogs style AT.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I just don't think indie games warrant higher than Miis/ATs.

He'd make a good Nintendogs style AT.

Question: do you count Minecraft as indie? Because a LOT of people do.

 

[ForsakenM]

Look, Ultimate being built up from 4 with a three year development time managed to give us everyone, but it could only give us 5 unique newcomers, one semi-clone, and 5 clones (with one of them being a glorified alt skin), and four stages. They barely managed to get 69 fighters into the base roster, one character in particular (Piranha Plant) is considered to be a base roster character being worked on that they couldn't finish on time. Stage builder and home run contest couldn't even make it into the base game and had to be added later on in updates. With all this in mind, there is absolutely no way in hell that they can bring back all 82 fighters for the next game while continuing to give us more adequate new content for the base game.

I'll also be frank on the topic of an Ultimate enhanced port, I don't want to play the same god damn game five years from now. I have Ultimate, I've been playing it since it came out. I put over a thousand hours into this game. If the next game is just an enhanced port then I will be incredibly disappointed because I've already milked this game for all it has to offer. This doesn't mean I want for the sequel to be something stupid like a genre change, but I expect at the very least an engine change, gameplay changes, a competent online netcode, and more different modes to play.

No one says you have to like cuts, but you have to be realistic about them and understand how unfeasible it is to keep adding the same fighters and content from each game.

There's being realistic, and there's being pessimistic.

Being pessimistic is automatically assuming characters will get cut because 'They just can't do it!' when that mindset was already defeated with Ultimate.

Being realistic is analyzing it all and realizing that not only can it happen again, but they are timing everything for it to happen again, but that anything can happen.

Being optimistic is jumping in and saying it's happening and focusing more on why it will instead of what things could stop it.

A lot of people think being realistic means going for a more negative outcome because generally things in life have more negative outcomes, but that in itself is pessimistic because it's not true at all, you just perceive it that way with your negative bias.

Now, I don't know about you, but when you play Smash...you've been playing essentially the same game since N64, with more content and minor changes, and not all of them were good. To be absolutely clear, I'm talking about base gameplay at it's core, sitting down to play the game with some friends or online. Smash has not changed very much over the years in terms of general gameplay. It always had Smash Attacks and Special Moves and Throws, but then we got more of them and we could charge the Smash Attacks...and I'm sorry, but other than changes to speed and just adding more content, nothing seriously earthshattering has happened to Smash's formula for decades.

Why do you think every platform fighter that tries something different is given so much attention? Why do you think that game on Steam that was just Melee reskinned was received so poorly (outside of it's over-monetization)? Rivals has no grabs or blocks and a counter, Slap City let you know if you were doing an actual combo, Brawlhalla gives each character a base moveset and then two unique ones based on the current weapon they wield. Now NASB gives every character Air Smash Attacks, Cargo Throw, massive anti-projectile options, an actual Block button, AND it makes Melee's speed actually functional for everyone. We don't know if MultiVersus will be good, but it's offering gameplay designed around 2v2 at it's core. There have been many other smaller and lesser-known platform fighters that have offered various things, and all Smash added was actual ladder attacks and very minor changes.

Hell, Smash STILL doesn't offer full controller customization, has garbage online and less worthwhile single player content then some of the above. Smash has gotten along being the only platform fighter for a long time now, but now people are starting to get serious and realize there is a market. Sure, Smash can lean on it's iconic history and Nintendo treasure trove of IPs only they have, but if they don't make real improvements...how long will that last them?

Thus, Smash NEEDS to keep running for a bit longer on the Everyone Is Here train, because right now it's the characters already in and the ones who might get in that is carrying them. They can't afford to make serious cuts in a market where NASB gets consistent updates and has a team that is much more transparent, where MultiVersus is free-to-play, and where both these games and Brawlhalla are getting big name characters in their ranks. We also have Fraymakers which will be great for the indie scene, so people who dislike them not making indie characters playable have a place to stay instead of playing their game.

I'm not saying that Smash will die out and time soon, nor that we are already at an age where Smash isn't just Ninten-dumping on it's competition, but eyes will be on Nintendo after we get a couple years down the line with NASB, MultiVersus and Fraymakers. They will have to step it up.

Oh, and stop blaming 'Everyone Is Here!' for why Ultimate was so incomplete at launch. It's not about that at all: it's all about how Sakurai was forced to make it launch in the second year of the Switch. If Sakurai was allowed to make it more at his own pace, we likely would have seen it later and more fleshed out.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

Question: do you count Minecraft as indie? Because a LOT of people do.

this is just me personally but i do not. it's owned by Microsoft which is one of the biggest companies, period, not just video games.

as for indie reps in smash, i'd say the best options just purely based on popularity/success would be like, FNAF and Undertale, and I know those are dirty words but still

 

[DarthEnderX]

Ahh, parody...

Question: do you count Minecraft as indie? Because a LOT of people do.

Lol, no. You stop being indie once Microsoft buys you.