Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Guynamednelson]

I have no clue why they'd want the fanbase to shrink

So we can actually acknowledge a certain quote from the Terry presentation. sora is what happens when you forget all about it

 

[Trevenant]

So we can actually acknowledge a certain quote from the Terry presentation. sora is what happens when you forget all about it

The one about being fun to play? If that is why, then it seems weird that they'd rather smash turn into a bunch of other wack formats just for the sake of proving a point...

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Wanting the fan base to shrink is the most self centered Gatekeeping stupid **** I’ve ever heard. You would have to be really self centered to think that you have the right to tell other people that the community should be smaller so people agree with you. Let people play smash or speculate on smash however you want. Don’t go saying the community should shrink just because your unpopular takes get ratiod. This is smash, you have people who have pushed unpopular ideas and made strong cases for them. This is the community where once niche characters like Adol or a Danganronpa rep are now entertained possibilities. Whatever niche Nintendo or gaming character you can dream of can be accepted by people.

If your response to criticism is saying the community should shrink, take a step back and think about what dumb stuff you are saying.

 

[Sucumbio]

I don’t trust any fan polls online to be totally representative of overall popularity given only a small percentage of enthusiast players engage in online discussion, but nothing about this strikes me as unbelievable.

Kirby! <(°°<) number 2! (>°°)>
Aww yeah






About the next game I think reboot is the wrong word but I wholeheartedly believe it will be a new project... And that's really nothing spectacular. They can borrow assets all day once legal approves it and it's Nintendo so it's kinda given unless it's Sora............ so whatevs.

Ohh yeah so this is why someone said downplay 3rds in your speculation matrixing but nah I think I prefer to daydream bout what 3rd parties are coming

 

[dream1ng]

This is like when Sakurai was dropping hints that DLC was ending after Pass 2 and for a long time, a great number of people chose not to give those insinuations the weight they deserved.

It's basically inevitable that Smash does not retain its entire roster next time they want to make a true sequel. And Sakurai has said as much more than once, most recently with this new interview. You don't have to celebrate losing characters, that would be kind of strange, but if you plug your ears that's just going to give you less time to acclimate to the eventuality.

 

[Yamat08]

As someone who's already stated plenty of times that he thinks doing EIH again will have plenty of drawbacks, based on doing EIH once having ones that should be more noticeable, I believe a reboot would just be...more resources dedicated to newcomers and side content. Maybe an underlying mechanic for the core gameplay.

I'd still like to think that the only reason for all these drawbacks was more due to the fact that a LOT of older content was being updated. Going forward, it shouldn't be as much of an issue if all, or even most of it, has been deemed to have been future-proofed enough (and graphics in general haven't been updating as rapidly as they have in the early 3D days, which is supposedly why Nintendo decided to drop out of the console arms race to begin with).

New poll was done in Japan to show the most popular characters, now that the roster is complete. This is also the most popular the poll has been.
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/rfw6dg

Hmmm...... wonder if I could take this as a sign of them adding a certain other Xeno girl. I can hope.

 

[Garteam]

I also want the "hype first" mentality to die out, but shrinking Smash's fanbase isn't going to accomplish that. Sure, new fans might add to that mentality, but a lot of the people who were supporting the idea that a character's value is only measured by how many people they could yelling at their computer screens were longtime fans of the series.

Plus, "hype culture" has always been an issue in the Smash fanbase, it's just more pronounced during Ultimate because people have increased the standard of what is "hype" to a more extreme degree and people are now hyper fixated on this idea of hype. If you go back 20 years and look at initial reactions to Melee's roster, you'll find a lot of "Who are Marth, Roy, and Mr. Game and Watch!?! They're not Wario or King Dedede!".

 

[Yamat08]

I also want the "hype first" mentality to die out, but shrinking Smash's fanbase isn't going to accomplish that. Sure, new fans might add to that mentality, but a lot of the people who were supporting the idea that a character's value is only measured by how many people they could yelling at their computer screens were longtime fans of the series.

Plus, "hype culture" has always been an issue in the Smash fanbase, it's just more pronounced during Ultimate because people have increased the standard of what is "hype" to a more extreme degree and people are now hyper fixated on this idea of hype. If you go back 20 years and look at initial reactions to Melee's roster, you'll find a lot of "Who are Marth, Roy, and Mr. Game and Watch!?! They're not Wario or King Dedede!".

To be fair, they also weren't revealing the entire roster prior to release, least of all the unlockable characters. Hell, even with Brawl, the only unlockable newcomers to be revealed pre-release were the third parties, Sonic and Snake.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

It CAN. But most people don't want it to.

Ultimate didn't sell like it did because people were unsatisfied with it.

...wait, so this thread is just what the community at large wants the next Smash to be? Because that's kind of going to be a problem.

Smash's majority could be all over the place. Some never played past 4, some specifically jumped in after 4, some haven't played Smash ever. I understand keeping to the majority can sometimes give the fans what they want, but for all intents and purposes people can still be left out.

And no, that's not an argument for shrinking the community. Although I kind of see where an argument could be made for that, deliberately trying to sabotage what's been established will not be the right way to go. But at the same time, for Smash to evolve, necessary sacrifices can sometimes cause these changes to be inevitable. Smash should not be exempt from any of this, and that shouldn't necessarily be an attack on the community. Contrary to popular belief, it's not guaranteed the next Smash will be a straight downgrade from Ultimate.

 

[Wonder Smash]

But, again, EIH wasn't flawless. A smaller amount of newcomers in base with some of them being clones with zero (intentional) gameplay differences, and the oddball character, Stage Builder, and Home-Run Contest had to come in later updates. Now just imagine having to do it again with more companies involved, we'd be lucky if we even get World of Light 2 and any newcomer resources to dedicated to a first-party that needed fans to save them from irrelevancy like K. Rool.

I don't think fans would be fussing over a lack of a World of Light 2.

This is like when Sakurai was dropping hints that DLC was ending after Pass 2 and for a long time, a great number of people chose not to give those insinuations the weight they deserved.

It's basically inevitable that Smash does not retain its entire roster next time they want to make a true sequel. And Sakurai has said as much more than once, most recently with this new interview. You don't have to celebrate losing characters, that would be kind of strange, but if you plug your ears that's just going to give you less time to acclimate to the eventuality.

The difference is that Sakurai made it clear that Pass 2 would be the last one without leaving any possibilities of another one. He was far more blunt on that.

In this case, he's basically saying that it's all up to Nintendo on whether or not they will make some cuts and that him maintaining the same role is a guarantee that they will IF he does. But as of right now, Sakurai really doesn't know what the next game is going to be like, so nothing is truly confirmed at this point.

 

[AlRex]

I think the next Nintendo-themed fighting game should be a crossover with someone else. But don’t consider it a Smash installment, even though the comparison will be inevitable. But, like, Nintendo VS CAPCOM probably doesn’t have to worry about having Jigglypuff or Corrin back.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

I don't think we're getting a Smash Movie or a Nintendo Cinematic Universe anytime soon. If that was in the plans, there would be way more cohesion between their upcoming stuff. We have a live action Pokemon movie and an animated Mario movie, which are being done by completely separate companies. And if Illumination is the company they would stick with, I fear for series like Zelda and FE.

I'm not saying a NCU is a bad idea, it's just absolutely not happening.

It doesn't have to happen. It's one of the left field ideas sure but it ain't out yet, Nintendo is known for left field decisions. That mentality is what even made Smash in the first place

Besides, I believe Nabbitfan wants Smash's fanbase to shrink after Ultimate. So, if a plain old Smash sequel will do that...shouldn't that be okay?

I do but just a plain old sequel won't do, How does one be an actual sequel via being downgraded washed version of the previous iteration. There are better ways to achieve that with the ideas mentioned i.e A genre change of 3D Smash or Nintendo All Stars focusing on Nintendo's greats and renovating on the Nintendo reps that need it like Zelda and Kirby.

I do agree though making Smash more niche and small community wise is the best decision going forward for the franchise.

I don't always want to fight for my life because I want a character someone else doesn't like or have character support devolve in popularity pageant contest.

This is like when Sakurai was dropping hints that DLC was ending after Pass 2 and for a long time, a great number of people chose not to give those insinuations the weight they deserved.

It's basically inevitable that Smash does not retain its entire roster next time they want to make a true sequel. And Sakurai has said as much more than once, most recently with this new interview. You don't have to celebrate losing characters, that would be kind of strange, but if you plug your ears that's just going to give you less time to acclimate to the eventuality.

^^^^^^100%. Idk why people are acting like you're a villain for stating what was already said. I said so many times that I don't like cuts. I don't like future iterations cutting out content and charging same prices but it's going to happen and there is nothing we can do about it . Saying weird stuff like it's "OOC" or "it's probably" doesn't mean anything. It clear cut and dry here.

That why I was suggesting on creative ideas Smash 6 can use to ease the pain of a cut roster by having something else as compromise whilst keeping things fresh and unique

The only characters who didn't return were a licensed manga character (Gon the farting dinosaur) and different versions of characters who were in the game (Kuma 1, King 1, Armor King 1, Roger, Tetsujin, various Jack models), which would seemingly be the equivalent of a costume change. (I'm not super familiar with Tekken - I know they're different people/kangaroos/bears/robots/training dummies, but I'm not sure how much the movesets differ between King 1 and King 2, or Roger and Roger Junior, for example)

Likewise, the King of Fighters games have been going since 1994, and have multiple "Everyone Is Here" titles ('98 Ultimate Match, 2002 Unlimited Match) without significantly changing up the gameplay too much. (by my understanding, there have been some shake-ups here and there, but gameplay wise, you can go from '95 straight to XIV or XV and they'll play fairly similarly, at least from a casual perspective)

I just don't see the need to reinvent the wheel, or completely change the gameplay and try to fix what isn't broken, or cut every third party character and automatically rule out a bunch of characters with huge fanbases like Crash, Ryu Hayabusa, Shovel Knight, Shantae, Geno, Dante, Tails/Knuckles/Eggman/Shadow, etc. Some characters are likely going to be cut, unless the next game builds heavily off of Ultimate, but given how rare cuts have been over the course of the series ( and fan outcry brought several of them back as DLC and seemingly led to Everyone Is Here), I can't imagine that there's going to be huge sweeping cuts like some people expect.

Cool. Guess it was fleasible for Tekken then. Doesn't mean it's the same for Smash though. Smash isn't Tekken. I don't hear Harada saying Everyone is Here isn't feasible and Cuts are coming. Different games with different development requirements, time and resources. Poor comparison.

Plus they actually cared for those fanbases and franchises they all would've been in Smash ages ago and not screwed over via shill picks.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Say, how about a change of topic (because I hate that we've seemingly talked about the same stuff for at least three days straight): Nintendo has opened up their year-end review thingy, so... what's your most played game this year? Mine ended up being Ys 8... and I STILL haven't beaten it...

 

[Nabbitfan730]

I don't usually check those things.

To be honest Gaming as whole was medicore this year and last year. Nothing good came out. Just poor cashgrab ports being inferior to the original, allegations upons allegations of gaming industry of communities and business alike, NFTS, Prices rising to $70 and beyond, consoles that aren't actually really next gen, really terrible dlc stuff etc

Now that I think about it, Gaming was actually terrible these past 2 years

 

[Trevenant]

TBH people know cuts are going to happen lol. It's just that there absolutely must be some larger motive behind it when you're just casually saying "so as we know cuts are going to happen, who do you think is gonna go"? That's bait if I've ever seen it, or just a mild attempt to get people on board to your cause. For what reason specifically, IDK, but it likely has got something to do with ideas like a movie for the next instalment, when this thread is literally speculation for the next game, cos we're not getting movies etc.

They have no need to change genres, and we know for a fact that they won't even consider such an idea momentarily if Sakurai is at the helm. A movie is getting into a completely different industry entirely, not only for the series in question, but for the company who publishes the game.

Nintendo have had barely any hands within the film industry, and the idea of a film is like me saying that tomorrow, a tumbleweed could pass me as I'm walking down the street, Possible, arguable but sure, likely, no, due to how unfounded it is.

Not only that, but whatever the chances are of a genre change, which are like below 0, then the chances of Sakurai being willing to oversee development of a smash movie to take the place of an actual game, with the fact that it's a game series being ingrained into it's identity at this point in consideration as well, shows that it's 10x less likely than even that... Maybe this is the thing you're trying to get people on board with, but people really won't.

All of the people who play smash will hate it TBH... As a movie, it could be good, but as a way to continue a fighting game series, where player interaction is the biggest component, especially when said series doesn't have deep, complex lore or story telling would absolutely not be the way to go...

Advent Children worked cos FF7 was an RPG, which means story... It may not have worked that well in comparison to other forms of media adapted into film, or heck, even other video games, but it works way better than Smash... That and all the licensing would probably not be worth it until Nintendo starts actually getting into the film business more often TBH.

 

[Sucumbio]

I don't think we're getting a Smash Movie or a Nintendo Cinematic Universe anytime soon. If that was in the plans, there would be way more cohesion between their upcoming stuff. We have a live action Pokemon movie and an animated Mario movie, which are being done by completely separate companies. And if Illumination is the company they would stick with, I fear for series like Zelda and FE.

I'm not saying a NCU is a bad idea, it's just absolutely not happening.

I but thanks to Netflix yet another fan favorite can be brought to life through the magic of Hollywood ha

What's Up Mega Man?

Blah blah ssbu Movie



to achieve that with the ideas mentioned i.e A genre change of 3D Smash or Nintendo All Stars focusing on Nintendo's greats and renovating on the Nintendo reps that need it like Zelda and Kirby.

No....nah. yes. In that order.
3d smash is lame it ends up being naraka bladepoint or something and not Smash which is different than a sequel or installation of a Fighting Game Series. There's change between games but nothing so fundamental. It'd have to be it's own game.
Nintendo All Stars is redundant. You can use Link in Mario kart lol these characters show up in each other's universes whenever they want but to "dook it out" yeah (settle it in) Smash! So ... Smash has always been and will always feature their All Star cast. Reducing the roster to Only Nintendo All Stars is asking Nintendo to break kayfabe and no one breaks kayfabe at Nintendo.

I do agree though making Smash more niche and small community wise is the best decision going forward for the franchise.

I don't always want to fight for my life because I want a character someone else doesn't like or have character support devolve in popularity pageant contest.

Wut ?

I think you mean maybe you want stricter rules for who gets to be a member ss if this entourage is some microdome or... Huuhhh? Ya lost me man fr.

That why I was suggesting on creative ideas Smash 6 can use to ease the pain of a cut roster by having something else as compromise whilst keeping things fresh and unique

I NEED my pain!

Cool. Guess it was fleasible for Tekken then. Doesn't mean it's the same for Smash though. Smash isn't Tekken. I don't hear Harada saying Everyone is Here isn't feasible and Cuts are coming. Different games with different development requirements, time and resources. Poor comparison.

But...... Bbbbbbbbbbuuuu-hhh-hh

Plus they actually cared for those fanbases and franchises they all would've been in Smash ages ago and not screwed over via shill picks.

Ah

Ahhh.

The Penny drops.you are not Job.

You are still the one who can't let go of what Ultimate didn't do for you so you approve of gutting the game entirely so no one can have nice things.

Tsk.

 

[Will]

New poll was done in Japan to show the most popular characters, now that the roster is complete. This is also the most popular the poll has been.

So does Japan just like big anime honkers or do they like how Pyra's a busted beast that's in the vain of fighting online Pikachus and Nesses?

 

[Wonder Smash]

I think the next Nintendo-themed fighting game should be a crossover with someone else. But don’t consider it a Smash installment, even though the comparison will be inevitable. But, like, Nintendo VS CAPCOM probably doesn’t have to worry about having Jigglypuff or Corrin back.

I prefer it stays Smash Bros.

I would like to see another Nintendo crossover though but more something like an official Super Mario Bros. Crossover. As of right now, the closest things to that are the costumes in Super Mario Maker, playing as Link in the sequel, and playing as either Link, Samus, or Kirby in a Mario stage in NES Remix 2. I would like to see Nintendo add more playable characters from other series in a Mario game.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

So does Japan just like big anime honkers or do they like how Pyra's a busted beast that's in the vain of fighting online Pikachus and Nesses?

According to the comment section, based on translation from DeepL (More accurate then Google Translate), they like Pyra/Mythra because they're easy to pick up, strong and their designs are considered cute.

 

[SPEN18]

It...absolutely does.

Sales numbers equals money. Money pays licensing fees. Like...it very directly negates it.

But sales aren't guaranteed when you're making the game; adding a character that requires more licensing costs forces you to guess how much extra you'll make from it. And at some point there is a diminishing return in terms of licensing costs being "worth it" because a game that has most of the characters people want isn't going to sell substantially better than one that has all of that + 1-2 more characters. Each individual character has a pretty miniscule impact on overall sales of the base game, and filling a base roster with a ton of third parties is actually slightly risky because it isn't guaranteed to make the game sell noticeably better than one that already has Mario, Link, Pikachu, Kirby, Yoshi, etc.

given how rare cuts have been over the course of the series ( and fan outcry brought several of them back as DLC and seemingly led to Everyone Is Here

The roster size from Melee and Brawl was nowhere near what it is now; it would have been much easier to bring back everyone from Melee to Brawl and from Brawl to Smash 4 than it would be to bring everyone from Ultimate into the next game (barring a port/remaster or the incredibly unique situation of being able to reuse assets in the midst of a platform transition), and even then not everyone was brought back. Basically nobody is arguing that you can't bring back the ~40 most essential characters in Ultimate, which is what it would've taken to do "Everyone Is Here" in Smash 4.

And yes, Sakurai has shown himself to be very averse to cuts, but even he has had to make them under various circumstances. Even if cuts have been rare after games with less than half the roster size of Ultimate, there's basically no telling right now how Ultimate's roster size will affect things. Some "tough" decisions may have to be made (although I'd argue some of them are not even so tough when you look at all the excess fat on the roster right now). Even Smash 4 had way less characters to bring back than Ultimate would, and this is without considering the aforementioned unique circumstances that allowed "Everyone is Here" to begin with.

 

[AlRex]

I prefer it stays Smash Bros.

I would like to see another Nintendo crossover though but more something like an official Super Mario Bros. Crossover. As of right now, the closest things to that are the costumes in Super Mario Maker, playing as Link in the sequel, and playing as either Link, Samus, or Kirby in a Mario stage in NES Remix 2. I would like to see Nintendo add more playable characters from other series in a Mario game.

I want to see that, I also want to see Nintendo VS CAPCOM because that sounds cool, I also want to see another Smash later. I don't think all of these are necessarily mutually exclusive, but I also kind of want a breather from regular Smash for a bit and wouldn't mind seeing some experimentation/different stuff done with similar concepts.

 

[Yamat08]

You know, I've been meaning to type up a listing of reasons why literally every character on the roster may be prone to either remain or be cut. Though, aside from the sheer length of such an undertaking, I'm honestly having trouble coming up with reasons why a lot of characters (especially most of the original 8) would have for being cut, barring some ridiculous scenarios like Mario suddenly no longer being the Nintendo mascot, or a technical cut in that their moveset is radically changed to the point that they might as well be a different character (the latter of which would become a pretty repetitive point after being listed for so many characters). At any rate, would anyone be looking forward to such a write-up if I were to work on it?

I prefer it stays Smash Bros.

I would like to see another Nintendo crossover though but more something like an official Super Mario Bros. Crossover.

So something like Mario+Rabbids or Fortune Street?

 

[Wonder Smash]

I want to see that, I also want to see Nintendo VS CAPCOM because that sounds cool, I also want to see another Smash later. I don't think all of these are necessarily mutually exclusive, but I also kind of want a breather from regular Smash for a bit and wouldn't mind seeing some experimentation/different stuff done with similar concepts.

Yeah, I understand you wanting a Nintendo vs Capcom game. It's just that me, I prefer to just simply see Capcom characters in Smash rather than a Vs. game. That's kind of like a Nintendo vs. Capcom game in its own way.

So something like Mario+Rabbids or Fortune Street?

Something like Super Mario Bros. Crossover.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I'd still like to think that the only reason for all these drawbacks was more due to the fact that a LOT of older content was being updated. Going forward, it shouldn't be as much of an issue if all, or even most of it, has been deemed to have been future-proofed enough (and graphics in general haven't been updating as rapidly as they have in the early 3D days, which is supposedly why Nintendo decided to drop out of the console arms race to begin with).

EIH was possible due to the Switch being weak enough to reuse Wii U models, and it still came with a lack of newcomers and side content in the base game. Besides, a successor to the Switch SHOULD be a massive upgrade regardless, as Nintendo now has the funds to do so and AAA devs would rather take advantage of the PS5/XSX's hardware.

 

[3DSNinja]

^^^^^^100%. Idk why people are acting like you're a villain for stating what was already said. I said so many times that I don't like cuts. I don't like future iterations cutting out content and charging same prices but it's going to happen and there is nothing we can do about it . Saying weird stuff like it's "OOC" or "it's probably" doesn't mean anything. It clear cut and dry here.


Cool. Guess it was fleasible for Tekken then. Doesn't mean it's the same for Smash though. Smash isn't Tekken. I don't hear Harada saying Everyone is Here isn't feasible and Cuts are coming. Different games with different development requirements, time and resources. Poor comparison.

Plus they actually cared for those fanbases and franchises they all would've been in Smash ages ago and not screwed over via shill picks.

These two statements are rather contradictory, aren't they? If you don't want anyone cut, then why are you saying that the picks that you disliked are just shill picks? That just feels kind of hypocritical. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Sakurai didn't say it was unfeasible. He just said it wasn't likely, which ...is a gigantic difference. He didn't say to expect it, but he never said it was completely impossible. And regardless, constantly saying that the picks were shill picks and wanting to turn Smash into a different franchise is just...not how such a situation should be handled. It shouldn't change genres just because they have to cut some characters. That's just silly, and would alienate people. And if you genuinly believe alienating people from a franchise is the best way to help, then you're in dreamland, because that just means diminishing sales, and considering how much it would cost to make another Smash, especially with said ideas, they might decide it's not worth it in the end if they end up making everyone just not want to play anymore. And I don't believe just because a fanbase is smaller makes it less "toxic" because that's just not true. The Danganronpa fanbase can easily prove that, so... yeah.
I'm just saying that for a new Smash, we shouldn't be expecting sh*t to be the same, but wanting them to change how the game plays at its core just because they're cutting some characters is ridiculous.


personally want break the targets back but eh it ain'thappening.

 

[Will]

According to the comment section, based on translation from DeepL (More accurate then Google Translate), they like Pyra/Mythra because they're easy to pick up, strong and their designs are considered cute.

I see. Rather than one or the other, it's both. I had a feeling Pyra being generally strong and easy for beginners to blast through online made a lot more sense.

 

[Perkilator]

Here's something I cooked up recently

 

[Trevenant]

It doesn't have to happen. It's one of the left field ideas sure but it ain't out yet, Nintendo is known for left field decisions. That mentality is what even made Smash in the first place



I do but just a plain old sequel won't do, How does one be an actual sequel via being downgraded washed version of the previous iteration. There are better ways to achieve that with the ideas mentioned i.e A genre change of 3D Smash or Nintendo All Stars focusing on Nintendo's greats and renovating on the Nintendo reps that need it like Zelda and Kirby.

I do agree though making Smash more niche and small community wise is the best decision going forward for the franchise.

I don't always want to fight for my life because I want a character someone else doesn't like or have character support devolve in popularity pageant contest.



^^^^^^100%. Idk why people are acting like you're a villain for stating what was already said. I said so many times that I don't like cuts. I don't like future iterations cutting out content and charging same prices but it's going to happen and there is nothing we can do about it . Saying weird stuff like it's "OOC" or "it's probably" doesn't mean anything. It clear cut and dry here.

That why I was suggesting on creative ideas Smash 6 can use to ease the pain of a cut roster by having something else as compromise whilst keeping things fresh and unique


Cool. Guess it was fleasible for Tekken then. Doesn't mean it's the same for Smash though. Smash isn't Tekken. I don't hear Harada saying Everyone is Here isn't feasible and Cuts are coming. Different games with different development requirements, time and resources. Poor comparison.

Plus they actually cared for those fanbases and franchises they all would've been in Smash ages ago and not screwed over via shill picks.

Even if it wasn't OoC, you're just misconstruing everyone entirely lol. We all know cuts are happening... it's logical lol... So my question is what's with your fixation with it? Taking a quote, when you literally could have used one of the other tens of dozens of times in which Sakurai made the exact same statement, which existed way earlier, weren't hard to find, and if anything could have helped your case, especially if they were used in conjunction with each other... If I had to take a guess, it's so you had a casual way to remind everyone why it's absolutely happening... Why that? Apparently cos you want the smash fandom to shrink... Why that? I have no idea, but it's gonna be a weird reason whatever the case TBH.

This whole idea is just getting bizarre at this point... Not just wanting the fandom to shrink, but... Especially when completely different genres are deemed as likely to even have a chance of occurring, when we have a pretty good idea they're not... You literally said so yourself that smash existed on the basis of a weird idea at Nintendo...

So by your own admission, we could literally also apply that to everyone is here returning... Which isn't gonna happen...

Look, a sequel is what's gonna happen, like smash 4, cuts or no cuts... You're literally on a thread which refers to the game as smash 6, which is a sequel to Ultimate... they're not gonna make a sequel to WoL as a movie to continue the series, when it barely has much to it anyway... We know for a fact a genre change isn't on the cards, so all the ideas you proposed just aren't happening...

If you think that the smash fandom will only shrink if one of the ideas you listed came to fruition, then... the fanbase isn't gonna shrink... cos none of them are happening... And I think most view that as a good thing...Cos why is a smaller fanbase better lol...

Maybe you could argue toxicity, but that'll be hard to weed out no matter what you do, so you're better off not giving it any notice... A smash sequel will probably sell less than Ultimate, yes, but that would be a marginally small amount, as there'll also be new people who pick it up cos smash sells... So this hope just isn't gonna come to fruition... In a vacuum, yes, but not to a large extent... And by sequel, I just mean from the perspective of Ultimate... Not a direct follow-up.

 

[Wonder Smash]

TBH people know cuts are going to happen lol.

None of us knows that because it's not confirmed.

 

[Guynamednelson]

None of us knows that because it's not confirmed.

It's confirmed by knowing how game development works.

I know "don't expect major hype bombs at the end" wasn't the lesson to learn from the Grinch Leak, but...we weren't able to get that many newcomers in the base game, possibly because...?

 

[Wonder Smash]

It's confirmed by knowing how game development works.

I know "don't expect major hype bombs at the end" wasn't the lesson to learn from the Grinch Leak, but...we weren't able to get that many newcomers in the base game, possibly because...?

We don't know how they do things with these particular games, though.

 

[DarthEnderX]

...wait, so this thread is just what the community at large wants the next Smash to be? Because that's kind of going to be a problem.

Not for most people.

Cool. Guess it was fleasible for Tekken then. Doesn't mean it's the same for Smash though. Smash isn't Tekken. I don't hear Harada saying Everyone is Here isn't feasible and Cuts are coming. Different games with different development requirements, time and resources. Poor comparison.

...then why did you make it?

I would like to see another Nintendo crossover though

Super Smash Karts!

 

[Wonder Smash]

Super Smash Karts!

I'm not much of a fan of racing games but I can picture that happening too.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

**** it, you get a nintendo all star baseball game and you will like it

(....that would actually be rad as hell)

 

[AlRex]

Super Smash RPG, if only for more world/character interactions, which is something I think Smash is currently missing.

 

[ForsakenM]

This. This so much. People act surprised that people are requesting third parties more when more of the “core” characters per series are in. Would I like Ashley to get in the next smash? Absolutely, but she feels far less important of a pick then day Ridley or K Rool were. I personally think that the combination of the doors being flung open for third parties combined with this has changed speculation into what it is now.

Obviously, this does not mean first parties are unlikely by any means. Including or not including echos, Ultimate did have more first than third parties as much as the purists might object. Likely, the split will be somewhat similar in Smash 6, with a slight tilt towards Nintendo as a result. Just don’t throw a fit when a third party gets in Smash when the series has been open to third parties since Melee.

Gotta say, pretty sure Dixie isn't tertiary: in her first game she's a main character and is a main character in the third DKC as well. She was part of the show, she was in both Mario Baseball games, made the DS version of Diddy Kong Racing and was part of the roster for the cancelled Donkey Kong Racing for GC and made it to Donkey Kong Barrel Blast, returned in Tropical Freeze...hell, Sakurai originally wanted Diddy and Dixie to be a duo fighter. She's popular in her series and in terms of Smash request, it's just that when Diddy got in without her everyone shoved her aside for K Rool. Now she's back at the top of DK request.

Not sure BWD counts either, considering how he's turned into more of a mainstay than a lot of the other requested Kirby choices out there. Like, it goes Kirby, King Dedede, Metaknight...and then Bandanna Waddle Dee. The rest of the requests are for characters who show up for a game or two and never come back unless it's time to make big nostalgia money.

Waluigi, despite never having his own game, has grown into something too big to be called that. If you made a Mario Sports game or Mario Party game without Waluigi in it, the backlash would be so fierce it would end up having to be formally addressed and no answer other than 'Oops, we'll add him later guys!' would be found acceptable. It's incredible that he wasn't added in Ultimate's base, but it just goes to show that even Sakurai can miss the mark occasionally. There is no way he misses the next Smash.

However, I will agree that a lot of the 1st party characters people want are lower on the totem pole considering who all we have already. While I think characters like Krystal, Isaac and Paper Mario really don't really fall into this either, I can admit characters like Ashley, Skull Kid/Impa/Midna, any version of Toad or any other Mario character that isn't Waluigi for that matter, seemingly Viridi/Medusa/Hades (no offense to Icarus fans, it just seems from my limited knowledge they grabbed the two biggest ones already), and all the really popular Pokemon who's popularity lasts throughout each generation are pretty much already in the game seem to fall into this category. This isn't even speaking of all the character who are the star of their own games, but their games are much lesser in scale, like Chibi Robo.

Not acknowledging this would be folly, and as a Geno fan I have to if I want to be honest with myself and others about his position, which is mostly due to fan demand but also the benefit of a legacy of starting off Mario RPGs.

This is like when Sakurai was dropping hints that DLC was ending after Pass 2 and for a long time, a great number of people chose not to give those insinuations the weight they deserved.

It's basically inevitable that Smash does not retain its entire roster next time they want to make a true sequel. And Sakurai has said as much more than once, most recently with this new interview. You don't have to celebrate losing characters, that would be kind of strange, but if you plug your ears that's just going to give you less time to acclimate to the eventuality.

This is actually way different. Sakurai has used this kind of language before when he already was working on another Smash, almost to a T. He's also brought up wondering if the next Smash could even do more or improve upon the last, and it always does. That is much different from Sakurai being abnormally insistent that Pass 2 was the end over and over again without prompt.

I'd argue that Smash doesn't need a true sequel just yet: it needs Ultimate to BE ultimate. I know this will piss some folks off, but we have to face facts, and that is Sakurai is looking into the face of the long list of long-time Smasher requests and he barely made a dent. The best way to win over the leagues of people he disappointed with Byleth, Min Min, Pyra/Mythra (mostly timing here), a smidge with Sephiroth and Kazuya is to build off of Ultimate and just toss in another handful of characters from that long-time list. What people fail to understand is that long-time Smashers don't really hate these characters being in as much as they hate their 10-20 years of requests missing out yet again, so now that those character they didn't ask for are in, most of them won't want them removed as it's just less content.

Also, Ultimate has a huge lack of single player content, and needs it's multiplayer content brought to online. Why can't I play Custom Smash in a lobby? Why is Smashdown only offline? Same with Squad Stike, why offline only? Why is All Star Mode a sham in comparison to previous versions? People are asking for Break The Targets, Boss Rush and Smash Run to return. Why is WoL the longest Spirit Board/Event Matches with nearly nothing else for substance? We are still missing beloved stages and tracks as well, and there was a distinct priority to bring back the old instead of really create new, so having some more brand new stages and tracks added in would be pretty sweet.

Make the unbelievable lists that are just Magical Christmas Land levels of wish-granting come true. Lets make it so friends can do Team Battles with Mario and Luigi vs Wario and Waluigi; Make it so you can do Squad Strike and have Team 'Magic N' Swords' with Hero, Robin and Isaac; Let Square just dominate so Geno can fight Sora, Sephiroth and Cloud at the same time. Dude, if you drop Dixie, 8-Player Smash on teams could have Team Rare vs Team Square! Let people flip the bird to Death Battle and judge the climax themselves with Bayonetta vs Dante, or see who is the better space marine with Doom Guy vs Master Chief, or have the platformer battle royal with Crash tossing Wumpas at Mario, Sonic and Megaman...and then bump it up with DK, Rayman, Kirby and Yoshi.

The last thing Smash needs to do right now is go backwards and take from us, because it has yet to truly deliver upon it's promise due to it's timing, rushed development, and lack of delays.

Also, about a third pass, with all the names we've heard since way early on...as crazy as it sounds, it's likely that a third pass was temporarily considered but Ultimately (haha) rejected due to shared ideals about DLC outweighing the base game monetarily. In other words, names were likely brought up and considered for previous passes, pushed out while others were selected but kept in mind for more DLC later on, and then that DLC never came...with my theory being that production of the next gen Switch was going very well and Furukawa decided Sakurai and his team's best interest would be extending that love and attention onto a better console. Considering how early DLC would have had to been negotiated for to announce it in Nov and have it almost entirely released in a single year, and that we know Pass 2 was negotiated very early in 2019, it would make sense that it was brought up but denied.

 

[Yamat08]

Also, about a third pass, with all the names we've heard since way early on...as crazy as it sounds, it's likely that a third pass was temporarily considered but Ultimately (haha) rejected due to shared ideals about DLC outweighing the base game monetarily. In other words, names were likely brought up and considered for previous passes, pushed out while others were selected but kept in mind for more DLC later on, and then that DLC never came...with my theory being that production of the next gen Switch was going very well and Furukawa decided Sakurai and his team's best interest would be extending that love and attention onto a better console. Considering how early DLC would have had to been negotiated for to announce it in Nov and have it almost entirely released in a single year, and that we know Pass 2 was negotiated very early in 2019, it would make sense that it was brought up but denied.

I'd believe that. I know that Vergeben might be a controversial name to many, but honestly, I feel the guy (or rather whatever his source was) was legit. That said, he did drop a few names, claiming they were at least in discussion but which ultimately never came to fruition, like Ryu Hayabusa.

 

[dream1ng]

The difference is that Sakurai made it clear that Pass 2 would be the last one without leaving any possibilities of another one. He was far more blunt on that.

In this case, he's basically saying that it's all up to Nintendo on whether or not they will make some cuts and that him maintaining the same role is a guarantee that they will IF he does. But as of right now, Sakurai really doesn't know what the next game is going to be like, so nothing is truly confirmed at this point.

This is actually way different. Sakurai has used this kind of language before when he already was working on another Smash, almost to a T. He's also brought up wondering if the next Smash could even do more or improve upon the last, and it always does. That is much different from Sakurai being abnormally insistent that Pass 2 was the end over and over again without prompt.

What clear revisionism that Sakurai said in no absolute terms that FP2 was the end right from the jump. It began subtle enough that people chose to look at how those signs could be untrue instead of heeding the underlying message which gradually grew more undeniable over time. Even earlier this year you would have a large camp behind the idea of FP3. Were it as explicit as you suggest, it wouldn't have prompted such a schism.

That's exactly what's happened here, the creeping truth conveyed to us early, that people want to ignore, and, because of how blatantly untenable the prospect of an ever-expanding, never-resetting roster is, it began even earlier than Sakurai talking about when DLC would end.

Sakurai has never said a new Smash would necessitate shrinking the roster before this time. He is no stranger to underselling, but pondering whether there will be another Smash (I think he knows as well as any of us that at some point, in some form, there will be) and wondering where we can go from here is not the same as repeatedly saying the roster will decrease next time. Those are open-ended musings, not a definitive statement about the future of the series.

But frankly Sakurai's input, while reaffirming, isn't even crucial to reach this conclusion. All you have to do is recognize that a roster nearing 100 isn't sustainable. Theoretically they can do a port with more content, but when the time comes to actually make something new, it's infeasible to get anywhere close to the current count. Nintendo isn't going to allocate the requisite time and resources. Competing with Ultimate would balloon the budget unrealistically. Even now, even when making Ultimate, Sakurai recognized this, and hence we've been getting forewarnings about it dating back a couple years already.

Past that, cuts are not just part of the genre to which Smash belongs, it's part of Smash. They'll return eventually, and no one is required to savor the prospect, but people need to learn to square with it, as basically every other fighting fanbase does. They handle it in stride, and then Smash fans go on like you're having your child ripped away from you.

The next game is far too far away to get mired in these kind of arguments, so I don't intend to further belabor my point. But I will say what I usually say about things like this and just caution you that when the writing ends up on the wall, we were warned exceptionally early about it.

 

[Ben Holt]

I firmly believe that "Everyone is Here" is here to stay. The fact that it was so important at the beginning of this game leads me to believe that they made sure to secure the rights to Ultimate's newcomers for the long run.
In fact, I believe that the next "gimmick" will be that every stage and item returns as well. EveryTHING is Here.

As far as the newcomers go, there has been an oddly consistent formula for how many newcomers each installment gets: Previous games newcomers plus about 3 (2 to 4).

Smash 64 got 12 newcomers. (Baseline)
Melee got 14 newcomers. (+2)
Brawl got 18 newcomers. (+4)
Wii U / 3DS got 21 newcomers (+3)
And Ultimate got 24 newcomers (+3)

With this in mind, I made a roster with 28 newcomers, since +4 is within the average range. I even put them in the order in which I would announce them:

1. Crash Bandicoot
2. Coco Bandicoot (Crash Echo)
3. Waluigi
4. Dr. Eggman

These are the characters I would announce the game with at E3 20XX, as they cover the hype bases of "Exciting new 3rd Party," "Long overdue," and "Highly requested, but predictable."

5. Spring Man
6. Rex
7. Heihachi

I call these the "Chrom" characters, as they are similar to Chrom in the sense that they are main characters that got shafted by another character because of a more interesting moveset. And Chrom was announced early on, so I announce these characters early.

8. Shadow (Sonic Echo)
9. Tails
10. Knuckles

You can guess what puts these three characters together. Tails and Knuckles always come as a pair, and Shadow was an obvious omission from Ultimate.

11. Dixie Kong
12. Lloyd

I image these as a Hero/Banjo thing where we get a popular Eastern and Western pick at the beginning and end of a Nintendo Direct respectively.

13. Toad
14. Ms. Pac-Man (Pac-Man Echo)
15. Impa

These three would be revealed one at a time to trick the audience into thinking it's the end before "The big one."

16. Master Chief

TGA 20XX. Crowd goes wild.

17. Alucard
18. Dr. Wily

Individual reveals, but they are the mandatory Assist Trophy upgrades. Zero was considered for the Mega Man slot, but Dr. Wily was just a bit more hype.

-----DLC-----
19. Ryu Hayabusa
20. Chun-Li
21. Spyro
22. Geno
23. Lara Croft
24. Doom Slayer
25. Dante
26. Rayman
27. Shovel Knight
28. Jonesy

I intentionally left the biggest characters as DLC, because they would likely sell more as Individual fighers. Plus, they would all have longer hype cycles, so it's better to end on bigger characters.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Look, Ultimate being built up from 4 with a three year development time managed to give us everyone, but it could only give us 5 unique newcomers, one semi-clone, and 5 clones (with one of them being a glorified alt skin), and four stages. They barely managed to get 69 fighters into the base roster, one character in particular (Piranha Plant) is considered to be a base roster character being worked on that they couldn't finish on time. Stage builder and home run contest couldn't even make it into the base game and had to be added later on in updates. With all this in mind, there is absolutely no way in hell that they can bring back all 82 fighters for the next game while continuing to give us more adequate new content for the base game.

I'll also be frank on the topic of an Ultimate enhanced port, I don't want to play the same god damn game five years from now. I have Ultimate, I've been playing it since it came out. I put over a thousand hours into this game. If the next game is just an enhanced port then I will be incredibly disappointed because I've already milked this game for all it has to offer. This doesn't mean I want for the sequel to be something stupid like a genre change, but I expect at the very least an engine change, gameplay changes, a competent online netcode, and more different modes to play.

No one says you have to like cuts, but you have to be realistic about them and understand how unfeasible it is to keep adding the same fighters and content from each game.