Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Noipoi]

So when I think of Pokemon in Smash I first think about who's already playable and try to imagine a case for who's the next Pokemon to join. What is the consensus for each in terms of why they're in the game? How does this help us figure out who's next to join?

I'm assuming this was Sakurai wanting a wrestling character in the game
"replaced" Mewtwo in Brawl but honestly besides having a giant energy ball attack they're not too similar and Lucario was pretty popular even back then (though for me I didn't get into Lucario until after Brawl released)
Easy clone of Kirby as I understand, but c'mon man she's still hilarious in the show and I'm glad she was included
so if i understand my generations right Pichu was introduced in gen 2 after Pikachu even though he's the earlier evolution. It's cool that he was in it but I don't exactly know why. They're movement clones and he's got the self inflicted dmg mechanic but they're not the same size so I'm wondering if they even saved time making Pichu.
The Star of the Show the face of Pokemon there isn't a place on Earth he's not known. Kinda like Jesus or Santa Clause.
he's the "bad guy" from the first movie and hype
Ash's Pokemon with Charizard being also hugely popular so it made sense to both include all 3 and then to have zard remain when the trainer mechanic was scrubbed over system limits.
?????? I have no earthly idea why Greninja is in Smash. He's awesome don't get me wrong I just have no idea how popular he is or what reason Sakurai could have for adding him.

Now that they're all listed we can see that as we knew just about all of these characters are from much earlier generations. I'm thinking there must be a reason Smash has stayed centered on these and less so on newer ones. If I'm not mistaken Incineroar and Greninja are the "newest" (gen 7 and 6) and we didn't get a gen 8 and gen 9 may also get skipped based on timing. I guess my point is it seems early generation heavy as if Pokemon as a whole is getting less modern as time goes forward whereas FE is "keeping up with the Jones'" and that maybe this idea that Pokemon always gets an obligatory new rep is only kinda true. I dunno, lol.

As the resident Pokemaniac I can tell you that Greninja is incredibly popular. It’s one of the most popular Pokemon in recent years, and even topped official popularity polls several years in a row.

 

[osby]

?????? I have no earthly idea why Greninja is in Smash. He's awesome don't get me wrong I just have no idea how popular he is or what reason Sakurai could have for adding him.

Greninja was initially just a slot for "a Pokemon from the latest gen" and Sakurai picked it from his concept art - apparently before Pokemon X and Y was even released. If I recall correctly, he said something about Greninja's moveset being easy to conceptualize?

Greninja turned out to be an incredibly popular Pokemon but that seems like a lucky pick in retrospect.

Also,

The Star of the Show the face of Pokemon there isn't a place on Earth he's not known. Kinda like Jesus or Santa Clause.

Not the two figures I was expecting Pikachu to be compared to.

 

[DarthEnderX]

As the resident Pokemaniac

Do YOU have a completed Living Pokedex?

 

[Guynamednelson]

It's cool that he was in it but I don't exactly know why.

I've said it before and I'll say it again

pov: you're scizor
Pichu had both marketing and cloneability in its favor. Even if Melee had two years of dev time, it would still be an extremely likely pick for the gen 2 slot.

 

[fogbadge]

I mean I want Smash fans to understand Pokemon marketing isn't just restricted to the latest batch of starters, but I have Eevee be my "anti-Incineroar" and not...uh...Kakuna for very good reasons.

if sakurai's willing to make slime from DQ work, he can make any pokemon work

 

[Sucumbio]

Greninja was initially just a slot for "a Pokemon from the latest gen" and Sakurai picked it from his concept art - apparently before Pokemon X and Y was even released. If I recall correctly, he said something about Greninja's moveset being easy to conceptualize?

Greninja turned out to be an incredibly popular Pokemon but that seems like a lucky pick in retrospect.

Really... I wonder if the new game will have a similar reservation for gen 9/10. I had started to think they were moving away from this trend but maybe not...

 

[fogbadge]

Really... I wonder if the new game will have a similar reservation for gen 9/10. I had started to think they were moving away from this trend but maybe not...

well TPC themselves usually seem to want the current gen repped in anything they're involved with

 

[Noipoi]

Do YOU have a completed Living Pokedex?

I’m a Pokemaniac, not a psychopath.

 

[Guynamednelson]

if sakurai's willing to make slime from DQ work, he can make any pokemon work

Slimes are at least supposed to be able to attack. The first two cocoon Pokemon are canonically only supposed to be able to know Harden, GF just didn't program the games to make them forget the moves they had as a Caterpie/Weedle.

 

[fogbadge]

Slimes are at least supposed to be able to attack. The first two cocoon Pokemon are canonically only supposed to be able to know Harden, GF just didn't program the games to make them forget the moves they had as a Caterpie/Weedle.

yeah and greninja supposed to canonically unaffected by psychic moves

 

[Ivander]

Slimes are at least supposed to be able to attack. The first two cocoon Pokemon are canonically only supposed to be able to know Harden, GF just didn't program the games to make them forget the moves they had as a Caterpie/Weedle.

I mean, the Pokemon anime literally has episodes of some of the weakest Pokemon being absolute monsters in battle, like Magikarp, Bellsprout, etc. I think there was one episode where there was a Metapod or Kakuna that was doing more than just Harden.

I’m a Pokemaniac, not a psychopath.

Don't you mean a Pokepath?

 

[Will]

"replaced" Mewtwo in Brawl but honestly besides having a giant energy ball attack they're not too similar and Lucario was pretty popular even back then (though for me I didn't get into Lucario until after Brawl released)

Since Lucario is voiced by Sean Schemmel, it’s the closest thing to Goku in Smash.

I play him sometimes, and he needs to be reworked, imo. His aura mechanic makes him janky to play early on, and you have to be really good to stay alive at high percentage since he’s lightweight too. Maybe it wouldn’t be so bad if he had a disjointed move added, maybe replacing his side special with Bone Rush?

 

[Guynamednelson]

I think there was one episode where there was a Metapod or Kakuna that was doing more than just Harden.

All I can think of is the episode where Ash has a Metapod battle and the two just harden over and over.

 

[Gengar84]

Do YOU have a completed Living Pokedex?

Did YOU play Pokemon Yellow from start to finish 100+ times? My friends and I used to play a game where we wrote a ton of Pokemon names on a piece of paper with random numbers and took turns eliminating them until only one was left. We’d use GameShark to start the game with that Pokemon and raise it solo through the game until it reached level 100 and started over with a new Pokemon. Pokemon Stadium definitely helped with that with Dodrio Gameboy and the ability to store our completed Pokemon to start the game over. Beating Misty with a solo Onix and Rhyhorn was definitely a challenge and we had to cheat a few moves on Pokemon for the playthrough to get past certain parts. Like Scyther had no way to hit the Ghost types in Lavender town and Chansey was pretty much impossible to beat Brock with just Pound. We had a ton of fun though.

 

[Noipoi]

Did YOU play Pokemon Yellow from start to finish 100+ times? My friends and I used to play a game where we wrote a ton of Pokemon names on a piece of paper with random numbers and took turns eliminating them until only one was left. We’d use GameShark to start the game with that Pokemon and raise it solo through the game until it reached level 100 and started over with a new Pokemon. Pokemon Stadium definitely helped with that with Dodrio Gameboy and the ability to store our completed Pokemon to start the game over. Beating Misty with a solo Onix and Rhyhorn was definitely a challenge.

Just 20 years later and you could've made a Youtube channel out of that

 

[Guynamednelson]

Just 20 years later and you could've made a Youtube channel out of that

I beat POKEMON YELLOW 151 TIMES?

 

[Gengar84]

I beat POKEMON YELLOW 151 TIMES?

Lol pretty much. In my case it was less than 150 because I only raised by family but I raised a lot of them multiple times for different movesets or if I wasn’t happy with the stats they came out with. Basically, the code replaced all wild Pokemon with the base form of the one we wanted. We caught about 6-10 of that Pokemon and raised them to around level 10 and just picked the best out of those. If they were all bad, I’d just start over putting the name back on the list to be eligible for another round. We didn’t have stat calculators back then so I didn’t have anything to compare it to other than if my friend already raised the same Pokémon. Once we selected the Pokemon we wanted, we’d turn off the GameShark and just play normally on Stadium’s Dodrio Gameboy.

 

[Ivander]

All I can think of is the episode where Ash has a Metapod battle and the two just harden over and over.

That's the most well-known appearance of Metapod no doubt, but there was a Johto episode where the Bug gym leader Bugsy uses a Metapod who manages to defeat Chikarita and was doing good against Pikachu.

 

[RileyXY1]

I've said it before and I'll say it again
View attachment 382240pov: you're scizor
Pichu had both marketing and cloneability in its favor. Even if Melee had two years of dev time, it would still be an extremely likely pick for the gen 2 slot.

And he would get even more prominence since. He actually got his own game where he was the star (Pokemon Ranger: Guardian Signs) and he even got spotlighted in HGSS with Spiky Eared Pichu, which actually became one of his alts when he returned in Ultimate. Plus Pichu is one of the franchise's most merchandised Pokemon ever.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

So when I think of Pokemon in Smash I first think about who's already playable and try to imagine a case for who's the next Pokemon to join. What is the consensus for each in terms of why they're in the game? How does this help us figure out who's next to join?

I'm assuming this was Sakurai wanting a wrestling character in the game
"replaced" Mewtwo in Brawl but honestly besides having a giant energy ball attack they're not too similar and Lucario was pretty popular even back then (though for me I didn't get into Lucario until after Brawl released)
Easy clone of Kirby as I understand, but c'mon man she's still hilarious in the show and I'm glad she was included
so if i understand my generations right Pichu was introduced in gen 2 after Pikachu even though he's the earlier evolution. It's cool that he was in it but I don't exactly know why. They're movement clones and he's got the self inflicted dmg mechanic but they're not the same size so I'm wondering if they even saved time making Pichu.
The Star of the Show the face of Pokemon there isn't a place on Earth he's not known. Kinda like Jesus or Santa Clause.
he's the "bad guy" from the first movie and hype
Ash's Pokemon with Charizard being also hugely popular so it made sense to both include all 3 and then to have zard remain when the trainer mechanic was scrubbed over system limits.
?????? I have no earthly idea why Greninja is in Smash. He's awesome don't get me wrong I just have no idea how popular he is or what reason Sakurai could have for adding him.

Now that they're all listed we can see that as we knew just about all of these characters are from much earlier generations. I'm thinking there must be a reason Smash has stayed centered on these and less so on newer ones. If I'm not mistaken Incineroar and Greninja are the "newest" (gen 7 and 6) and we didn't get a gen 8 and gen 9 may also get skipped based on timing. I guess my point is it seems early generation heavy as if Pokemon as a whole is getting less modern as time goes forward whereas FE is "keeping up with the Jones'" and that maybe this idea that Pokemon always gets an obligatory new rep is only kinda true. I dunno, lol.

Lucario was never meant to replace Mewtwo, we know from datamine that he was planned, and he's actually the cut characters with the most data, so he was probably cut fairly late into development. Lucario was simply chosen because he's by far Gen 4 most popular Pokémon. In the big Pokémon poll of 2020, Lucario was second, with the first being Greninja (more on that later). Also something to note about Lucario is that Brawl's roster was chosen in 2005. At that time, Pokémon diamond and pearl were actually not released (they released in 2006), so the only thing Sakurai had for Gen 4 was... The Lucario movie. So yeah, he was just a very obvious choice. Iirc the only other Gen 4 Pokémon that appeared in the movie was Buneary, Munchlax and Bonsly.

On Greninja, yes he's hugely popular (like I said, he was first on the big 2020 poll), but popularity isn't actually the reason why he was chosen. Sakurai only chose him based on X and Y concept art. So my guess is that this is a similar case to Incineroar and he was simply chosen because Sakura wanted a Ninja and it was easy to make moveset from.

About Pichu, they did save a lot of time making him. He have exactly the same moveset as Pikachu. Also Pichu was chosen because he was a joke character. According to Melee's dojo on Jigglypuff (translation from Source Gaming):

"In the last game, Jigglypuff was designed to be the weakest character. (But even so, it could be rather powerful depending on one’s playstyle). But this time around, since Pichu has taken over the role of ‘intrinsically weak character’, Jigglypuff was re-designed a little bit."

So yeah aside from being fairly popular and being from gen 2, Pichu might have been chosen because Sakurai wanted another "weak joke" character, and the Baby evolution was a perfect fit because on top of that, he was a clone that would that less development time.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I think for a while Greninja was considered the most popular Pokemon out of all of them in official fan polls.

 

[RileyXY1]

I think for a while Greninja was considered the most popular Pokemon out of all of them in official fan polls.

That came after Smash 4, and was mostly because of Greninja's role in the XY anime, where he even got his own special form in Ash-Greninja that was later added into the games.

 

[Garteam]

This is kind of my problem with Eevee tbh. Whenever it comes up it's almost always a situation where it's mostly a vehicle for including the other Eeveelutions. Nothing wrong with including the Eevee line, it's one of the most beloved in the franchise after all, but I'd rather have a single (or a couple if time allows for it) fully realized Eeveelutions over an Eevee that relies on its evolutions to even function as a character.

That's not to say I think solo Eevee lacks merit mind you. It's not my preferred choice for an Eevee rep (or Pokémon in general,) but I do think you could make a moveset for it without forcing the others in as assists or a multi-transformation gimmick. And for the record, I think a Captain Commando style character or one with multiple installs/forms are still good ideas, I just don't think Eevee is the best choice simply due to the number of options being on the higher side. (And the CC assist thing doesn't really fit Eevee or Pokémon in general imo)

I'd settle for an Eevee with a simple moveset, that's kind of its thing too. It does have lots of evolutionary potential, but as plain Eevee it's a simple, normal type Pokémon. Just so long as it's not based around Partner Eevee, that moveset would be Baddy Bad...

I get where you're coming from, but the issue of having only one of the Eeveelutions or a solo Eevee disconnected from its evolutions is the fact that Eevee's entire identity is defined by its versatility in gameplay through its evolutions. If Eevee was just another cute, gen 1 normal-type in the same vein as Clefairy, I don't think anyone would seriously be going to bat for it. In fact, people would probably bemoan that Eevee is so underpowered and doesn't have anything going for it that other Pokemon don't. People like Eevee because of the Eeveelutions. XD and Let's Go Eevee made Eevee their starter Pokemon, but the former immediately shoves evolution items in your face within the first 20 minutes of gameplay so you can immediately get your preferred form of the little guy and the latter gives you a whack of moves to represent the various Eeveelutions. It's telling that Eevee can be given top-billing in these games... so long as its evolutions are given some indirect focus to make Eevee stand out more.

The same principle applies to the Eeveelutions, as these Pokemon are most fondly thought of as a set. I can't see Umbreon being as popular in a world where it's just another Pokemon and not the Dark-type evolution of Eevee. All of the Eeveelutions also have approximately equal importance in the games, so it's really tough to make a case for an Eeveelution that particularly deserves to be in Smash above all else without appealing to some individual preference that isn't universal. Some may be happy that, say, Vaporeon got into Smash, but a lot more people would have a grievance that their favourite Eeveeultion has no representation while another one arbitrarily had a red carpet rolled out for it.

 

[fogbadge]

speaking of pokemon, i find it interesting that i've seen people suggest that the have FE's weapon triangle represented in smash but no one ever suggests having all the pokemon types represented

 

[Gengar84]

speaking of pokemon, i find it interesting that i've seen people suggest that the have FE's weapon triangle represented in smash but no one ever suggests having all the pokemon types represented

I think one problem is that grass would be underpowered and water would be overpowered in terms of starter types. There are so many fire users in Smash and very few water users. Type disadvantages in general might be unfun in a more action based game like Smash compared to something turn based like Pokemon. Similarly, a spear user in Smash that used the weapon triangle would be pretty overpowered considering how many sword users we have and the only axe wielder is Byleth who has all three.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

speaking of pokemon, i find it interesting that i've seen people suggest that the have FE's weapon triangle represented in smash but no one ever suggests having all the pokemon types represented

They tried doing type disadvantages in Brawl, and it made Ivysaur the worst out of the Pokemon Trainer trio by a big amount.

 

[Guynamednelson]

speaking of pokemon, i find it interesting that i've seen people suggest that the have FE's weapon triangle represented in smash but no one ever suggests having all the pokemon types represented

It helps that representing the triangle requires...two characters at best.

 

[fogbadge]

I don’t think they meant the actual mechanic, they just wanted axe and lance users

 

[Gengar84]

I don’t think they meant the actual mechanic, they just wanted axe and lance users

Oh, in that case, I agree. I’d love more variety in general with weapon types and movesets. Beyond just Pokemon, I’d love to see more water and ice elemental users in general.

 

[Noipoi]

speaking of pokemon, i find it interesting that i've seen people suggest that the have FE's weapon triangle represented in smash but no one ever suggests having all the pokemon types represented

We’d need a minimum of 9 pokemon with distinct dual typings, and even that’s not happening because Pikachu is a single type and we all know he’s not going anywhere.

 

[Sucumbio]

Can YOU name all of these fine creations? I can name... 2!

But I really just wanna know who the purple one on the right is

 

[fogbadge]

We’d need a minimum of 9 pokemon with distinct dual typings, and even that’s not happening because Pikachu is a single type and we all know he’s not going anywhere.

You know we currently have 9 Pokemon that aren’t pikachu right?

 

[Noipoi]

View attachment 382263

Can YOU name all of these fine creations? I can name... 2!

But I really just wanna know who the purple one on the right is

That’s Princess Hilda from A Link Between Worlds.

She’s pretty much Goth Zelda

You know we currently have 9 Pokemon that aren’t pikachu right?

But are they all distinct dual typings? Cuz I’m counting two fire types, two dark types, two water types, and another electric type

 

[Ivander]

View attachment 382263

Can YOU name all of these fine creations? I can name... 2!

But I really just wanna know who the purple one on the right is

From right to left:
Wart - Super Mario Bros 2
Hilda - Legend of Zelda A Link Between Worlds
Baby Rosalina
King Knight - Shovel Knight
Mythra
Culdra - Culdcept
Princess Shokura - Wario Land 4
Baby Peach
Garon - Fire Emblem Fates
Nyna - Fire Emblem Shadow Dragon

Only the monkey I don't know.

That’s Princess Hilda from A Link Between Worlds.



She’s pretty much Goth Zelda

Design-wise, maybe. Personality-wise, far from it.

 

[fogbadge]

But are they all distinct dual typings? Cuz I’m counting two fire types, two dark types, two water types, and another electric type

the point is there’s more than enough Pokemon to already do it

 

[Gengar84]

View attachment 382263

Can YOU name all of these fine creations? I can name... 2!

But I really just wanna know who the purple one on the right is

Really? You should at least be able to get four in Mythra, baby Peach, baby Rosalina, and Wart. I’m also familiar with Princess Hilda and King Garon. The others look familiar but I can’t exactly place who they are.

How about these?:

 

[Kirbeh]

Really? You should at least be able to get four in Mythra, baby Peach, baby Rosalina, and Wart. I’m also familiar with Princess Hilda and King Garon. The others look familiar but I can’t exactly place who they are.

How about these?:

View attachment 382265
View attachment 382266
View attachment 382267
View attachment 382268
View attachment 382269

I'm familiar with Spinal and Cervantes, and I know of Zegram specifically because of you. I have no idea where the blonde is from, but I will at least guess that the first man is from a musou game.

 

[Gengar84]

I'm familiar with Spinal and Cervantes, and I know of Zegram specifically because of you. I have no idea where the blonde is from, but I will at least guess that the first man is from a musou game.

Very good. The top is Gan Ning from Dynasty Warriors and the blonde guy is Eizen from Tales of Berseria. They’re all pirate characters if that wasn’t obvious enough lol.

 

[osby]

Really? You should at least be able to get four in Mythra, baby Peach, baby Rosalina, and Wart. I’m also familiar with Princess Hilda and King Garon. The others look familiar but I can’t exactly place who they are.

How about these?:

View attachment 382265
View attachment 382266
View attachment 382267
View attachment 382268
View attachment 382269

I only recognize Eizen but the first guy is clearly from Dynasty Warriors.

 

[Gengar84]

I’d love to see a pirate character or a samurai character in Smash. There are probably more pirate characters among my favorites in gaming but I think both styles would make for awesome characters in Smash.