Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Swamp Sensei]

People just really dislike his Wind Waker incarnation, especially for the Triforce map section and maybe Four Swords Adventure where he stole your Force Gems. Hardly anyone has any issue with his Majora's Mask incarnation, who is just a map maker selling maps to help his father(and his maps are much much more cheaper compared to the close-to-400 Rupee amount for each Triforce map in Wind Waker).

Though Aonuma himself not liking Tingle doesn't help his chances. But really, make his next appearance more like his MM incarnation and most people would be fine with him.

A lot of people dislike Tingle due to homophobic and queerphobic reasons. You have to remember, Tingle got the most of his criticism and hate in the 2000s. They were a very different time. Gaming was very "dude bro" back then. Even though Tingle is probably straight (he literally goes on a quest to find women lol), he acts in non-heteronormative ways. He "acted gay" and "like a pedo." Those were some of the more common complaints back then. I know I heard it back then. Tingle's hatred was also mostly a Western thing. He was fairly popular in Japan and got several spin-offs.

TIngle being annoying in Wind Waker and FSA didn't help. But notice that Tingle's hate isn't nearly as strong anymore. As society and media have gotten more progressive, they've been more accepting of Tingle's quirks and don't associate his campiness with terrible stereotypes anymore. Tingle would be much more accepted now. And I find it sad he isn't used anymore.

Regardless, Tingle's hatred was so intense back then that Nintendo essentially got bullied into locking him away. It's actually a little surprising that he got into Hyrule Warriors. And even then he isn't plot relevant in Legends even when the other DLC characters got something. Nintendo overcorrected and essentially smothered Tingle to prevent fan outrage. It's the same kind of situation that put Star Fox into consistent retreads of 64. It's the same kind of situation that forced Pokemon into pushing Gen 1 mons constantly after Black and White. It's the same kind of situation that pushed Sonic into sticking to the Genesis aesthetic for multiple games in a row. Fans having complaints and developers overcorrecting or missing the mark.

TLDR: TIngle will probably never have a major role again because people were dumb and hated the funny little guy.

Bring back Tingle.

 

[dream1ng]

Everyone loves the Big Gay Dance

It was big

And it was gay

And it was dance

Bring that back

The new FS is better tho tbf

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

To be honest, I just don't find Tingle that interesting. I don't dislike him, and the sheer amount of disdain Western fans had for him in the aughts was silly, but given Zelda's typically strong record of well-designed and engaging recurring characters, Tingle never felt like he had much going for him beyond the novelty of "quirky fairy man", though it's cool for fans that the spin-offs expanded on him. I trust the Zelda team in potentially re-incorporating him into mainline games well if they ever wanted to and if he was announced for Smash at worst, I'd shrug and hope his moveset was good.

In general Tingle to me is like non-Eggman humans in Sonic games; I don't mind them, but if I never saw them again, I really wouldn't be that bothered.

 

[DarthEnderX]

An AT was the appropriate level of representation for Tingle. Bring back his AT.

 

[Sucumbio]

Tingle was created as an oddball Peter Pan.

And I'm all for it!

 

[Kirbeh]

I'd happily take Tingle if he managed to get in, but he's not really my first choice for a Zelda newcomer. Between both forms of Midna, Ghirahim, some incarnation of Impa, any of the BotW/TotK champions, etc. there's no shortage of Zelda characters I'd like to make it in as fighters.

I think Tingle has merit, but he's also a ways down on the list for me personally.

I do have the caveat of it needing to be Majora's Mask Tingle though. I do fall into the camp of people who dislike the Wind Waker version of the character.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

People are still bringing 2B skirt despite the fact that we have on the roster a character that have the power to remove part of her clothes to summon demon.

 

[osby]

People are still bringing 2B skirt despite the fact that we have on the roster a character that have the power to remove part of her clothes to summon demon.

You know, I'm half-convinced that some people in the speculation scene want to talk about female characters' underwear and cleavages while using censorship as an excuse.

 

[fogbadge]

You know, I'm half-convinced that some people in the speculation scene want to talk about female characters' underwear and cleavages while using censorship as an excuse.

one of them being sakurai

 

[Deleted member]

Yes yes, we get it.
Sakodidn't include your boy toy so you're damn mad about it.


Not that it matters because he was too much of a coward to put in the Cheetamen.

 

[fogbadge]

Yes yes, we get it.
Sakodidn't include your boy toy so you're damn mad about it.


Not that it matters because he was too much of a coward to put in the Cheetamen.

what curious behaviour: hmm I think for my first time on this forum I’ll insult another user

 

[Deleted member]

Where I come from that's just playful ribbing, mate. Calm down.

If you want something to be mad at, be mad that Sako doesn't know how to properly celebrate gaming since he ignores the glory that is kusoge.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Did someone say kusoge?

 

[Sucumbio]

one of them being sakurai

You've pointed this out before ... Many times in fact. And I've never asked but it's always made me curious. So I'll ask, why do you believe Mr. Sakurai has an unhealthy fetish involving seinen? More so, as far as I can tell all Japanese Animation seems to offend you personally because of its nature, as if to say that other regions have not crossed the bridge of sexualizing their animations. We know that's not true. I'd rather not post any examples, from any region really, because it's truly irrelevant to my question. But Christ man, cave paintings were explicit sometimes, what is your beef? I mean this respectfully btw I know you're someone seen as purposefully obtuse but this one point you don't miss a chance to say I just gotta know, yo.

 

[fogbadge]

Where I come from that's just playful ribbing, mate. Calm down.

If you want something to be mad at, be mad that Sako doesn't know how to properly celebrate gaming since he ignores the glory that is kusoge.

who said anything about being mad?

You've pointed this out before ... Many times in fact. And I've never asked but it's always made me curious. So I'll ask, why do you believe Mr. Sakurai has an unhealthy fetish involving seinen? More so, as far as I can tell all Japanese Animation seems to offend you personally because of its nature, as if to say that other regions have not crossed the bridge of sexualizing their animations. We know that's not true. I'd rather not post any examples, from any region really, because it's truly irrelevant to my question. But Christ man, cave paintings were explicit sometimes, what is your beef? I mean this respectfully btw I know you're someone seen as purposefully obtuse but this one point you don't miss a chance to say I just gotta know, yo.

who said anything about being offended? I think of sakurai this way largely because of the pythra presents where he does that whole “I prefer her, only as a fighter” thing that while probably a joke did come across as protesting too much. Also it does sound a lot like every other instance I’ve seen on the internet where someone is pretending they’re not just in love with certain characters. even then I’m mostly kidding and these days it’s the fan reaction that bothers me, the way so many people swiveled on a dime to say sakurai was objectively right.

in short there are multiple factors in play that make this instance particularly bothersome. I probably should let up on making fun of him for it but really I don’t think he’s any crazy than most other game designers

 

[dream1ng]

Pretty sure when Sakurai broaches censorship it's been related to what he was talking about, like when he explained why Mai was absent, which he kind of needed to do for a character so major to SNK when basically all the other notable KoF characters were there. And even then he was pretty heavy on the euphemisms.

But I agree, there's nothing to do but repeat yourself about how a few characters who need to have their designs tweaked will get those tweaks and it'll be fine. Often I don't even get the sense it's raised with the intent of arguing the alteration would keep them out... just more... a reminder that it'd happen.

 

[Kirbeh]

I just need them to finally add in Exdeath. They've been using his void for years now.

 

[Oracle Link]

I don't really agree. I think Zelda representation is flawed because of its lack of content, not because of what's already here. I mean, Young Link is superfluous at this point but we can't really judge Ultimate and Everyone is Here by "normal" standards.

Otherwise Sakurai has made a case for a younger Link being playable in Smash, one that has strengthened the more our default Link has changed and eventually converted into his BOTW form. The option for a more traditional Link is more valuable than ever. And Sheik is a benefactor of circumstance, but should have pioneered a standard to open Zelda up to standalone game-specific additions which many of us are hopeful for today. The elephant in the room is yes, Sheik is technically Zelda (well, one of the Zeldas... not necessarily this one), but has virtually nothing in common with the character functionally and offers a distinct flavor while carrying her individual significance to arguably the most popular game in the series. If we endorse characters like Skull Kid or Midna is would be kinda wrong to toss Sheik aside.

I think the only glaring issue with how things are right now - movesets aside - is that we do in fact have three Links, something that is obviously temporary. I can see Sheik being cut loose depending on how much space is available next time, although I don't think she or Toon Link are indicative of flawed series representation. Hell, Toon Link is one of the most persisting forms of the character as well and I think that branch of the series needs its due. Personally I would hold onto him over adding most new Zelda characters.

THIS for the most part
Like obviously young and toon shouldnt stick arround at the same time BVut toon link was young links replacement anyways having a Classic/ Small link is pretty justified
Sheiks main issue is that shes an sheikah whose role couldve been fullfilled by Impa for the most part! I personally think giving sheik a Short Sheikah kinfe and a couple of other reffrences, using her oot design and giving her an impa skin would fully justify her!

 

[dream1ng]

The censorship talk makes me wonder if Smash will ever end up T again instead of E10. I think the series is going to start leaning all the more heavily on third-parties given the remaining first-party lineup is... well it's alright, but, like, if Waluigi, BWD, maybe Dixie are your heavy-hitters... they're fine choices but they're not exactly Nintendo's a-team.

So if the next game is made from the outset with the knowledge and intent of higher focus on third-parties, just to give themselves creative latitude given the amount who skew somewhat more violent/gun-oriented/suggestive (several of whom make up some of the most popular), whether they might opt for T.

Probably not. I don't think E10 inhibits them that much, and I doubt they want to sacrifice a more inclusive rating. That said, I don't think T really holds them back either in terms of audience-size - I mean Smash has been T before, and there are countless successful games with an even higher rating - but still. Maybe if it conflicted more with realizing certain characters, but it seems unlikely. I mean if Bayo can work...

It's also worth noting that Smash has always (afaik) been rated A in Japan, CERO's lowest rating. Which is kind of wild, considering for his neutral special, Joker wields a gun. But that can explain why they're so picky about the upskirts.

I suppose it's more just wishful thinking, in that, ideally, characters could be implemented as faithfully as possible, and nothing/no one gets omitted.
Plus, the higher the rating, the better the chance we get the crotch chop...

 

[Guynamednelson]

I don't think E10 inhibits them that much, and I doubt they want to sacrifice a more inclusive rating

They're more focused on that CERO A rating anyway, which is as inclusive as you can get. It's only a coincidence that the series' ESRB ratings have been all over the place compared to CERO.

Outside of maybe the bloody Master Hand in one SSE cutscene...

 

[Stratos]

Mortal Kombat is a violent fighting video game franchise, and Finishers as we know them are Brutality, Fatality, Animality, and more. But two Finishers we also know which are not violent are Babality and Friendship, I don't know how you see it but these two pure Finishers are a good reason I can say and write that Scorpion can come to the Super Series Smash Bros with his moves and it is understood that one of them will be the Spear with his phrase "GET OVER HERE!" and it doesn't have to show blood of course, although showing anything violent in the Super Smash Bros series already doesn't do that and that's a good thing of course.

 

[fogbadge]

Animality, Babality and Friendship

for real?

 

[Sucumbio]

Mortal Kombat is a violent fighting video game franchise, and Finishers as we know them are Brutality, Fatality, Animality, and more. But two Finishers we also know which are not violent are Babality and Friendship, I don't know how you see it but these two pure Finishers are a good reason I can say and write that Scorpion can come to the Super Series Smash Bros with his moves and it is understood that one of them will be the Spear with his phrase "GET OVER HERE!" and it doesn't have to show blood of course, although showing anything violent in the Super Smash Bros series already doesn't do that and that's a good thing of course.

You read my mind I was just thinking about Scorpion and him having his taunt be his babality, friendship and not sure about his 3rd taunt tho.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You read my mind I was just thinking about Scorpion and him having his taunt be his babality, friendship and not sure about his 3rd taunt tho.

Well, engulfing himself in Fire in a way that looks akin to a Super Saiyan powering up(though not to the same degree) would be a good way to handle it. It's a typical taunt, really.

Oh, and Tingle is one of the few Zelda characters to get their own games. Zelda is the only other one besides Link at any point. He's absolutely a fun and interesting choice on his own. I hope he becomes playable someday. It would also be nice to get Pig Ganon and Impa too.

 

[Schnee117]

You read my mind I was just thinking about Scorpion and him having his taunt be his babality, friendship and not sure about his 3rd taunt tho.

His friendship is a good victory screen pose tbh

 

[fogbadge]

His friendship is a good victory screen pose tbh

i have so many questions

 

[dream1ng]

They're more focused on that CERO A rating anyway, which is as inclusive as you can get. It's only a coincidence that the series' ESRB ratings have been all over the place compared to CERO.

Outside of maybe the bloody Master Hand in one SSE cutscene...

Well that's alright, they've struck an A/T balance before, and increasing the ESRB rating would give more freedom to more characters than increasing the CERO rating, since more likely candidates deal with firearms and violence than sexualization.

I mean of the latter, it's mostly 2B. There are other characters out there like KOS-MOS, Morrigan, Velvet, etc. But on them I'm not holding my breath. Maybe Shantae, but I wouldn't expect her over other indies. I guess there's Jinx, but she has a version of her design with bandages under her top, and we'd probably get that one. I've heard the occasional concern for Chun-Li's spinning bird kick, but given she wears opaque tights, I think she'd be fine.

More over, these fixes just change the outfit a bit. The ESRB's concerns actually affect the moveset.

And it's tricky to discern exactly where Smash is with guns atm. Clearly there's leeway not present during Brawl (which ironically was T), what with Joker and all. I know the argument that Joker's gun is a model, but that's never specified in Ultimate... and the rating board is going to base their rating solely on what is in Ultimate. Like, were Doom Slayer's BFG referenced, but they never specified what it stood for... they'd probably be able to get away with that.

In any case, even with wherever the line is now with firearms, there are probably still some restrictions they'd be rid of with T instead of E10, which could benefit characters like Chief, Slayer, Dante, a RE character, plus any potentially left-field, probably western picks w/ guns, just in terms of latitude provided. And even though it's not a gun, this would probably also help Travis. In theory Scorpion benefits too, but... Scorpion ain't getting in what with MK in Japan.

Pictured: Suda51 being Suda51

Again, it's probably more a hope than a realistic thought. Luckily, I think any of these characters can still work perfectly fine with the current rating... which is probably part of why it won't change.

Though to the quote, I've no doubt CERO is a priority for them, but NA is by far their biggest market, so I reckon the ESRB is no afterthought either.

 

[Sucumbio]

Oh, and Tingle is one of the few Zelda characters to get their own games. Zelda is the only other one besides Link at any point. He's absolutely a fun and interesting choice on his own. I hope he becomes playable someday. It would also be nice to get Pig Ganon and Impa too.

Oh, absolutely. He's got America to blame for his omission tbh. It's still going on. Sigh but c'est la vie. And besides even exposure to the most "degenerate" or "wonky" examples of the arts never bothered me even when they're portraying say, Chinese people like me. Those are usually great. Sometimes it's like oh wow haha cause it's intended to be racist and for profit and they still happening now too heh.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Oh, absolutely. He's got America to blame for his omission tbh. It's still going on. Sigh but c'est la vie. And besides even exposure to the most "degenerate" or "wonky" examples of the arts never bothered me even when they're portraying say, Chinese people like me. Those are usually great. Sometimes it's like oh wow haha cause it's intended to be racist and for profit and they still happening now too heh.

I can understand why people disliked him in Wind Waker. The prices are one thing, but him slave-driving his "brothers" is just... ugh. I actually found the Triforce Hunt stuff kind of fun, but I liked sailing. There's no excuse for the latter stuff, though. No wonder he was in jail. He's funny in FSA, though. It's just WW where he's pretty... yeah.

Still, he has other games where he's far more interesting anyway. I am glad he made it into HW. It's the US' first ability to play as Tingle. XD

 

[fogbadge]

I can understand why people disliked him in Wind Waker. The prices are one thing, but him slave-driving his "brothers" is just... ugh. I actually found the Triforce Hunt stuff kind of fun, but I liked sailing. There's no excuse for the latter stuff, though. No wonder he was in jail. He's funny in FSA, though. It's just WW where he's pretty... yeah.

Still, he has other games where he's far more interesting anyway. I am glad he made it into HW. It's the US' first ability to play as Tingle. XD

did you not even get rosy ruppe land?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

did you not even get rosy ruppe land?

It didn't release in the US, no. It's only in EU and JP.

I'm still trying to get a EU copy to play, though. For a reasonable price, heh.

But yeah, HW games were the only time in the US region. So far.

I mean, you can count the Tingle Tuner if you want otherwise, but that more summons him than directly play as him, if I remember right.

 

[fogbadge]

It didn't release in the US, no. It's only in EU and JP.

I'm still trying to get a EU copy to play, though. For a reasonable price, heh.

But yeah, HW games were the only time in the US region. So far.

I mean, you can count the Tingle Tuner if you want otherwise, but that more summons him than directly play as him, if I remember right.

well it was alright but it’s not too bad if you miss it

 

[toonito]

just saw 2B getting into Granblue.....Yoko Taro's down with the crossover love lol

i still maintain shes a distinct possibility for Smash 6, dont sleep on her chances

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

well it was alright but it’s not too bad if you miss it

I definitely want the game, though. Tingle's one of my favorite Zelda characters~

 

[fogbadge]

I definitely want the game, though. Tingle's one of my favorite Zelda characters~

ok then It might be bad for you better not mention my copy it’ll sound like I’m rubbing it in

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

ok then It might be bad for you better not mention my copy it’ll sound like I’m rubbing it in

E-Bay should have a sale someday, hehe~

 

[Sucumbio]

Ooo mcds getting a pretty thick pack in here Crash not sure who the other one is... But I expect Crash to be a DLC newcomer.

 

[Deleted member]

Crash is terrible, but not terrible enough to be a bona-fide kusoge.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Crash is terrible, but not terrible enough to be a bona-fide kusoge.

Bruh?

 

[Hadokeyblade]

did you not even get rosy ruppe land?

I wanted to play Rosy ruppe land as a kid but it never came out over here and my parent never wanted me buying things over the internet.