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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Idon

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Would it be accurate to say Meowth is the most screwed character in Smash history? As in like, I don't know if he will ever get a serious chance again. Characters miss the boat all the time but for many of them there's always tomorrow. But the Pokemon train never slows down.

I love the little guy and while this is an exciting theory, it also depresses me a bit to know that he really missed the boat. For a character so significant at the time, and so important to the anime, he simultaneously feels like one of the biggest absences and also a relic of what could have been.

It's hard to justify adding Meowth now when marketing does not favor him and the series trucks onwards with a few dozen new Pokemon every generation to further snub out all the old candidates. So I wish we did get Meowth back then, taking advantage of his last real chance at joining the fray and probably sitting pretty cozy as Pikachu's direct rival and a legacy character by now. I really just feel bad for him.
Not any more than any other semi-popular pokemon. You could look at every Pokemon Sakurai considered but ultimately decided against and put them in the exact same boat.
 

dream1ng

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You gave me the impression that Crash will never be in the game based on how you worded it. His time will come. Eventually. It's a matter of when.
I don't share Louie's view on Crash's chances, I'm more bullish on him. Though in this case it just means I think he's a plausible addition, not necessarily one of exceedingly high odds.

It's sort of six of one half-dozen of the other to now be under a company that seems to be easier to negotiate with, and is already in Smash, yet has a much more stacked lineup of candidates.

But I don't agree that any remaining third-party is a question of when rather than if. Third-party inclusion is unpredictable, somewhat haphazard, is full of behind the scenes development we'll never be aware of, and deals with a huge pool of candidates. There are too many variables to declare anyone a lock, even a lock of indefinite timing.

Characters like Ridley, K Rool, Banjo, Steve, and even Sora were heavily requested throughout the past 15 years and took them until 2018-2020 timeline to get them all in.
There have been many characters that had high popularity endure the length Crash's has (which is roughly one era) and haven't been in. Ridley, K Rool, Banjo and Sora had popularity start at least two games before they got in, if not three. And we still have several characters of game-spanning high popularity who aren't fighters.

And Steve's demand lasted nowhere near 15 years before he was included. Unless you were on Miiverse it barely even started until during Ultimate. Though he also doesn't really belong on this list considering he wasn't added due to demand.

Sora not being ample enough is somewhat surprising. Not counting that he was heavily requested, he pretty much got in by luck. If I recall correctly, Sakurai bumped into a Disney rep to get things started and that led to many discussions. Think about it: Sora is pretty much the definition of "unlikely" due to his connections to Disney. But he broke that barrier thanks to Sakurai.
But the argument isn't whether Smash could land Crash. I'm sure they could, if they wanted to. Luck isn't particularly germane to the argument you're making, and in fact supports Louie's argument that Sora is indeed not a good parallel.

Again I'm not saying we won't get Crash - I think we might. It's possible. But I agree that these characters only work as parallels to a limited degree, because they also have a lot of dissimilarities to Crash and/or his situation.



Last time I checked, Crash does have fan demand during the Wii U/3DS era. Let's not forget that unlike Banjo, Crash was pretty much one of the main faces of the Playstation/Sony era during the PS1/PS2 and was considered a "rival" to Mario. Outside of Sonic, very few characters get that recognition. All the games were very solid and well received throughout the PS1 and most of PS2 era.
I think what Louie is saying is that Banjo's specific history with Nintendo is unique, which is true, and that makes him a poor parallel for other characters who have similarities in the content/timeframe of the IP, like Crash, but lack the same kind of relationship Banjo has to Nintendo, represented via Smash.

And I agree with that. For the most part the spectrum of "Nintendo association" is a relic from a different era of Smash speculation, but if a character is in a special circumstance where they transcend the whole scale due to a unique history where they basically were Nintendo, it makes them a poor comparison against characters that weren't in that situation - which is most of them. The two that most come to mind being Banjo and Bayonetta.

A better (though still imperfect) parallel is Banjo is to Smash what Crash would be to PSASBR, had it continued.

Also Crash's demand before his revival (which was post-4) was pretty negligible. It is true he was not a major request until Ultimate.
 
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LiveStudioAudience

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Microsoft's interests might be the significant x factor with something like Crash. Not to say that the former necessarily has the power to push for certain Smash characters, but if there is a general negotiation between them and Nintendo then he might the sort of figure that Microsoft could float to the latter about inclusion.
 

dream1ng

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Microsoft's interests might be the significant x factor with something like Crash. Not to say that the former necessarily has the power to push for certain Smash characters, but if there is a general negotiation between them and Nintendo then he might the sort of figure that Microsoft could float to the latter about inclusion.
I have a hard time seeing Crash as being the series MS chooses to float though. From the perspective of the company, it's hardly their most important series, and right now its future seems ill-defined. To me Crash seems more like a choice made for the token fan spot rather than by the IP holder.

Were MS to suggest a series to Nintendo/Sakurai, I would imagine it'd be Halo. Because that series is really starting to show its cracks, yet is very important to MS - so I would imagine they'd want to funnel positive interest towards it from curious fans via Smash, and get some good publicity.

Also, I think MS may realize that most of their choices (i.e. the series they'd want to promote) wouldn't necessarily align with who Nintendo would actually accept. Chief is probably one of the few characters likelier to be in the middle of that venn diagram.
 

Guynamednelson

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Would it be accurate to say Meowth is the most screwed character in Smash history? As in like, I don't know if he will ever get a serious chance again. Characters miss the boat all the time but for many of them there's always tomorrow. But the Pokemon train never slows down.

I love the little guy and while this is an exciting theory, it also depresses me a bit to know that he really missed the boat. For a character so significant at the time, and so important to the anime, he simultaneously feels like one of the biggest absences and also a relic of what could have been.

It's hard to justify adding Meowth now when marketing does not favor him and the series trucks onwards with a few dozen new Pokemon every generation to further snub out all the old candidates. So I wish we did get Meowth back then, taking advantage of his last real chance at joining the fray and probably sitting pretty cozy as Pikachu's direct rival and a legacy character by now. I really just feel bad for him.
Hell, one of the biggest arguments for him, the anime, does not apply to Pokemon Horizons. There's a main character who has a Pikachu still, but not one with a Meowth.

Ironically it'd be a better time to add him in Gen 8, where Team Rocket was still part of the anime, and Meowth got both a second regional form and a Gigantamax form.
 

Gengar84

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Which bandai namco rep do you guys see fitst? Personally, lloyd Irving due to the franchise sales and already being a mii costume like king k rool, Chrom and isabelle were before.
I really want to see either an Alphen/Shionne tag duo, Velvet Crowe, or Nightmare for the next Bandai-Namco character. I’m also a big fan of Astaroth but I don’t think he’s nearly important enough for real consideration.
 

Perkilator

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Which bandai namco rep do you guys see fitst? Personally, lloyd Irving due to the franchise sales and already being a mii costume like king k rool, Chrom and isabelle were before.
Aside from the obvious choices, I want to see Valkyrie, a character from Namco’s earlier days in the arcade scene.
 

Oracle Link

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I know this isn’t the thread for this but literally who is talking about open-world OoT or Link’s Awakening? I highly doubt there is an effort to push these games into open-world format and, if there are, they are a very small minority of people who should be ignored and using them for a basis of, well, whatever you are trying to achieve in your post. Your post was a huge swing and a miss in regards what the aim of my post was.

Seriously, people could be talking about favorite breakfast cereals and Oracle comes in like “The fact that Zelda does not have acereal brand makes me mad!!”
Ey i never asked for Zelda Breakfast cereals!
Also im more annoyed than mad by the Zelda Merch situation!
And I mean i only heard the zelda remake being turned into openworld thing twice BUT Tons of people complain about faithful Remakes!
 

AlRex

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Microsoft bought Bethesda, who had previously bought id Software. They also have bought the merged together Activision-Blizzard. I guess it's good that, at the very least, they seem chummy with Nintendo a bit, which slightly lessens the monopolization, but still. Also, if they weren't all under the same company, we'd have to worry less about them being "competing reps".
 

Gengar84

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I want Crash, Doom Slayer, and Master Chief. I also wish there weren't so many mergers, good lord...
Yeah, I’m not sure exactly how third party slots are chosen but it still doesn’t quite feel right to group Bethesda, Activision, Blizzard, and RARE all under a single “Microsoft character” slot. Despite all now being owned by Microsoft, they all have their own unique histories separate from that. That’s probably the least of our problems with big company mergers in the grand scheme of things but it does potentially directly relate to Smash.
 

Hadokeyblade

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Ultimately what matters in a third party getting in is that the devs like the series.


Which bandai namco rep do you guys see fitst? Personally, lloyd Irving due to the franchise sales and already being a mii costume like king k rool, Chrom and isabelle were before.
Lloyd honestly. He's been reuested for so many years i dont see any other tales of character getting in.
 

Gengar84

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Ultimately what matters in a third party getting in is that the devs like the series.



Lloyd honestly. He's been reuested for so many years i dont see any other tales of character getting in.
I’ll agree that Lloyd is the most likely despite my lack of personal interest in the character but I wouldn’t write off Alphen and Shionne. Tales of Arise just got a big DLC story so the characters are relevant again. ToA is still the most recent Tales game so that might factor in as well.
 

dream1ng

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I have wanted MC and Samus to throw down for 20 years. It will happen!
Well this next Smash will be the first one Master Chief is a non-ironic, popular choice from the beginning, with the knowledge that 1) we can get western characters, 2) we can get competitor characters, and MS will likely be again present, 3) they seem to have somewhat laxed guns.

Let's see how it plays out...

I see the doomslayer as the fps rep before master chief.
Could happen. Though ironically Master Chief does have a better presence in Japan. And is overall a more well-known character.

Though there isn't an "FPS rep", it's just that one of these characters will probably eventually get in before the other.

I want Crash, Doom Slayer, and Master Chief. I also wish there weren't so many mergers, good lord...
Yep. The chance of getting a MS character increases, but the chance of getting multiple of these characters, especially all three, decreases.

And I know someone's gonna hop in and say quotas aren't a rule. Which is true. But I don't think existing newcomers help the others' odds.

Yeah, I’m not sure exactly how third party slots are chosen but it still doesn’t quite feel right to group Bethesda, Activision, Blizzard, and RARE all under a single “Microsoft character” slot. Despite all now being owned by Microsoft, they all have their own unique histories separate from that. That’s probably the least of our problems with big company mergers in the grand scheme of things but it does potentially directly relate to Smash.
That is how it's gonna work, though. It's not like we're currently like "we have one Rare character and one Mojang character". I mean, we do, but that's not how it's really treated, for the most part. We generally say "we have two MS characters".

Ultimately what matters in a third party getting in is that the devs like the series.
Well, not really. Not if Nintendo just "strongly suggests" they be added.
 

Gengar84

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Well this next Smash will be the first one Master Chief is a non-ironic, popular choice from the beginning, with the knowledge that 1) we can get western characters, 2) we can get competitor characters, and MS will likely be again present, 3) they seem to have somewhat laxed guns.

Let's see how it plays out...


Could happen. Though ironically Master Chief does have a better presence in Japan. And is overall a more well-known character.

Though there isn't an "FPS rep", it's just that one of these characters will probably eventually get in before the other.


Yep. The chance of getting a MS character increases, but the chance of getting multiple of these characters, especially all three, decreases.

And I know someone's gonna hop in and say quotas aren't a rule. Which is true. But I don't think existing newcomers help the others' odds.


That is how it's gonna work, though. It's not like we're currently like "we have one Rare character and one Mojang character". I mean, we do, but that's not how it's really treated, for the most part. We generally say "we have two MS characters".


Well, not really. Not if Nintendo just "strongly suggests" they be added.
I think characters should be chosen on their individual merits rather than as any kind of company representation. I don’t think we have conclusive evidence that they decide on characters in order to give third parties equal representation. Has Sakurai ever implied that there’s some kind of limit on how many characters a single third party developer can have or that they included any character just because a particular developer owns them?
 
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AlRex

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Namco-Bandai also has Soul Calibur, Dark Souls, Dig Dug, Katamari Damacy, Taiko Drum Master, Xenosaga, and maybe Galaga or Klonoa as being somewhat likely other options. And admittedly, I'd be more interested in these and Digimon than Tales of.
 
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dream1ng

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Yeah, but for example, what if sony buys a big company like square enix or capcom.
Then we can say goodbye to the Square Enix or Capcom characters.

But anyone other than Sony buys an existing company and they'd probably stick around.

I think characters should be chosen on their individual merits rather than as any kind of company representation. I don’t think we have conclusive evidence that they decide on characters in order to give third parties equal representation.
I think they are based on character/series merit, for the most part. As in, I don't think characters are added to be "x company rep" (Terry aside), and if the company has a shallow repertoire, I don't think they would force another character for the sake of it. Like, I think we've gotten all the IPs we're gonna get from Disney. Sorry, Monkey Island fans.

But at the same time, there's no shortage of qualified characters across many companies, so I also think they make an effort to take from a variety of devs. That doesn't mean complete parity. We don't have parity, nor will we. Nor really should we, some companies just have more bigger names to offer. But I do think it means they will deliberately refrain from a highly disproportionate focus on a specific company.

Like, I would be very surprised if we got more than two MS newcomers this time. And for that matter, only getting one strikes me as plausible too.

And you've also got to balance the priority of potential newcomers against the priority of retaining the vets. Where do keeping Banjo and Steve stack up in all of this?

Namco-Bandai also has Soul Calibur, Dark Souls, Dig Dug, Katamari Damacy, Taiko Drum Master, Xenosaga, and maybe Galaga or Klonoa as being somewhat likely other options. And admittedly, I'd be more interested in these and Digimon than Tales of.
Ngl, anyone other than Tales or Dark Souls (and Elden Ring, if a port happens) would surprise me. Including SoulCalibur.
 

Sucumbio

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Banjo seems like he should be in base next time around. Steve, unless he gets meta knighted like in 4, should just be cut he's too polarizing, game breaking and unfun to play against. But even then I don't see him in base. I see MC or doom guy as the next MS rep with my personal want being Chief and being DLC. 3 MS reps total seems fair but I can even see it reducing to 2 with just BK and one of the fps reps.
 

Swamp Sensei

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Banjo seems like he should be in base next time around. Steve, unless he gets meta knighted like in 4, should just be cut he's too polarizing, game breaking and unfun to play against. But even then I don't see him in base. I see MC or doom guy as the next MS rep with my personal want being Chief and being DLC. 3 MS reps total seems fair but I can even see it reducing to 2 with just BK and one of the fps reps.
Characters don't get cut for balance reasons. As the idea that they should is downright silly. If you're making a new game, you can just tweak the unfun parts.

Kirby and Pikachu got nerfed in Melee.
Fox got nerfed in Brawl.
Meta Knight got nerfed in Smash 4.
Bayonetta got nerfed in Ultimate.

Why wouldn't Steve get nerfed in a new game?
 

KillerCage

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Ultimately what matters in a third party getting in is that the devs like the series.



Lloyd honestly. He's been reuested for so many years i dont see any other tales of character getting in.
What about Yuri Lowell?
He was so popular among the Tales of community that he was banned from popularity polls.
1702391760964.jpeg
 

Gengar84

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Yuri as well, he's a popular request mostly competing with Lloyd for a Tales of rep.
I really liked Yuri as a protagonist. While he has more than enough to work with on his own for a moveset, I really want to see something adjacent to the Ice Climbers with him and Repede. I just think a warrior and animal companion is a great archetype and he could fit that really well. Again, it’s not really necessary but I think it would be fun. Other options for a similar moveset are H’aanit and Linde from Octopath Traveller or Nia and Dromarch from Xenoblade.
 

SneakyLink

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Off topic:


I am gonna miss the days of the “E3 character reveal”
 

Amornal1

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Gengar84

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My personal ranking for Tales characters I’d like to see (that at least have some small reason to be considered) are:

1) Alphen and Shionne tag duo
2) Velvet Crowe
3) Zaveid
4) Yuri and Repede
5) Lloyd

I personally don’t care for Lloyd as a character but I did really like Symphonia overall and it was my first Tales game so I can see why he’s a popular choice. I also think that Symphonia had the overall best soundtrack of all the Tales games I’ve played.

There are plenty of other Tales characters I’d love to see like Rita, Sheena, Tear and Alvin but I don’t think they have any kind of realistic chance. I can at least make some kind of case for all the characters above.
 
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dream1ng

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The greatest testament to why it'll probably be Lloyd is how despite the series having a wealth of protagonists, basically the entire Tales character discourse seems to revolve around why there's a chance it won't be Lloyd.
 

Gengar84

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The greatest testament to why it'll probably be Lloyd is how despite the series having a wealth of protagonists, basically the entire Tales character discourse seems to revolve around why there's a chance it won't be Lloyd.
The only reason I bring that point up is because Lloyd is always the assumed Tales character if we get one. I do think he’s still the most likely but I don’t think it’s a sure thing. Add that to the fact that Lloyd is probably my least favorite Tales protagonist and that some of the others are among my favorite characters in gaming and that’s why I like to talk about alternatives.
 

osby

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The greatest testament to why it'll probably be Lloyd is how despite the series having a wealth of protagonists, basically the entire Tales character discourse seems to revolve around why there's a chance it won't be Lloyd.
I mean, it wouldn't be the first time Smash speculation drove itself into a corner for no reason.

Prior to Joker and Cloud's addition, neither of them was taken seriously in the slightest because everyone thought we would get more Nintendo-centric or mascot-y characters instead of them. Lloyd is likely due to his popularity among Smash fans but there's always a good chance that Sakurai/Nintendo would want to go with a different choice - possibly someone who's more popular in the Tales fandom.
 

RileyXY1

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I mean, it wouldn't be the first time Smash speculation drove itself into a corner for no reason.

Prior to Joker and Cloud's addition, neither of them was taken seriously in the slightest because everyone thought we would get more Nintendo-centric or mascot-y characters instead of them. Lloyd is likely due to his popularity among Smash fans but there's always a good chance that Sakurai/Nintendo would want to go with a different choice - possibly someone who's more popular in the Tales fandom.
That was a general sentiment back in the Smash 4 days, when there was a huge anti-third party sentiment among the fanbase and it was usually only the more cartoon mascot-like characters that were even talked about, especially once it was officially confirmed that Snake was cut.
 
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