Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Swamp Sensei]

Honestly, I like that better than my own idea, as it could allow for more creativity in his moveset. I'd still cut about half the FE roster to make way for him, though:

Marth
Robin
Corrin
Byleth
Alear

Roy, Ike, Lucina, and Chrom are cut to make room for Alear. Maybe even Marth himself could be on the chopping block.

Marth will never get cut.

 

[Will]

Can’t be surprised I open up this thread on a Friday morning and the first thing I witness y’all talking about is cutting more characters from the worlds best-selling tactical RPG series.

Corrin could go and I wouldn’t cry about it imho

 

[ZephyrZ]

The laundry list of characters who would be cut before Marth is large enough to include characters like Fox. Marth is never getting cut lmao.

Even though I agree Marth isn't ever getting cut this post still feels like sacrilege.

 

[DarthEnderX]

It's their way of saying "I hate Fire Emblem" without actually saying "I hate Fire Emblem".

"There's more Fire Emblem in Smash than there should be" is my way of saying "I hate Fire Emblem".

 

[Gengar84]

I think the main reason there are so many Fire Emblem characters in Smash is that several of them make for easy echoes or semiclones. Since they don’t take the resources of a unique character, I don’t really count them as such. I believe there are only five truly unique Fire Emblem characters in Smash (Marth, Ike, Robin, Corrin, and Byleth) so that seems about right to me. It’s not entirely the same thing but you never hear complaints about there being too many Dragon Quest characters in Smash despite getting four Heroes. I think people get too hung up on whether a character gets their own character slot without thinking too much about how much development time they take.

 

[Schnee117]

Ike isn't getting cut before Corrin lmao
The only thing Corrin has going for them over Ike is that people actually played their game. However Ike is a much easier character to maintain as he has no model morphing and switching going on and he's the most popular character pre-Three Houses going by him getting the most overall votes in the very first CYL (both his PoR and RD selves also made the top 5 for the men's side despite them having their votes split between each other even). Corrin took until this year's CYL to barely get second on the women's side behind the flavour of the week gacha villain in a year with extremely low turnout whilst Male Corrin has historically done awfully for a main protagonist and has never cracked the top 20 for the men's side. Even Leif's done this twice and one of those times was when his votes were split.

They're also never cutting Lucina unless they completely scrap echo fighters.

The solution is to go for different types of FE picks instead of defaulting to the latest main characters. Go for older popular characters like Lyn and Edelgard. Go for popular, less important characters like Yunaka and Ivy. Go for antagonists like Black Knight and Lyon. At 8 characters deep I think we can more than afford having a different type of FE pick.

 

[chocolatejr9]

And now, your regularly scheduled update on the Microaoft-ActiBlizz buyout:

BREAKING: The UK regulator has provisionally approved Microsoft's acquisition of Activision Blizzard.

The CMA has remained the last major roadblock, but says Microsoft's offer to sell cloud rights to Ubisoft "opens the door to the deal being cleared".https://t.co/ZAHNBpWVBQ pic.twitter.com/df4RQNyZDM

— VGC (@VGC_News) September 22, 2023

Assuming nothing happens before the deadline (October 6th), we may FINALLY be getting to the end of this. Then I'll be able to come up with conspiracy theories about how this will lead to a Skylanders revival, thus leading to Skylanders in Smash...

Don't worry, Crash and Spyro will get in first. As will... most of ActiBlizz's catalogue...

 

[Perkilator]

I’ve been working on a Ghirahim moveset designed as though he was introduced in Smash 4 like he should’ve been

Spoiler

Intro: Ghirahim teleports onto the stage and swings his sword in a clockwise motion.

Stance/Idle 1: His stance from his fights in Skyward Sword.
Idle 2: Ghirahim flips his hair.
Idle 3: Ghirahim briefly licks his lips.

Notable Palette Swaps (only the color of his cape changes; the cape itself is the first color listed, while the diamond patterns are the second)

1. Default
2. Link (green/yellow)
3. Zelda (pink/white)
4. Impa (blue/yellow)
5. Fi (purple/blue)
6. Groose (green/navy)
7. Koloktos (yellow/purple)
8. Demon Lord Phase 3 (black/white)

Walk: His walk from Skyward Sword.
Dash: His run from Skyward Sword.
Damage: His damage animation from Skyward Sword.
Jump: His jump from Skyward Sword.
Crouch: Ghirahim crouches in a rather ominous manner.

Normal Attacks
Jab: Ghirahim slashes twice with his current sword (4%), then performs a flurry with two swords (1% each hit) before finishing with a horizontal slash (5%, small knockback)
Forward+A: Ghirahim stabs the opponent (7%, small knockback)
Up+A: A downwards crescent slash (7%, small knockback)
Down+A: A horizontal slash (6%, small knockback)
Dash Attack: A sweeping slash (9%, small knockback)
Edge Attack: A downwards slash (7%, small knockback)
Get-Up Attack: A sweep kick on both sides (6%, small knockback)

Aerial Attacks
Air+A: Ghirahim pulls out two swords and performs a circular slash in both directions (11%, OK knockback)
Air Forward+A: Ghirahim pulls out two swords and performs a horizontal slash (12%, OK knockback)
Air Back + A: Ghirahim nonchalantly performs a downward slash behind himself (11% with a meteor effect, OK knockback)
Air Up+A: Ghirahim slashes in an upward arc with both swords (12%, OK knockback)
Air Down+A: Endless Plunge; Ghirahim plummets down and attacks with both swords (12%, OK knockback). This catches opponents midair and then bounces them upward upon landing.

Smash Attacks
Forward+A: Skyward Strike; Ghirahim pulls out a giant sword and slashes downward (24%, medium knockback). If Ghirahim is at 0%, he fires a vertical sword beam
Up+A: Skyward Slash; Ghirahim pulls out two swords and performs three slashes, similar to Link’s up Smash (21%, medium knockback)
Down+A: Skyward Spin; Ghirahim pulls out two swords and performs a brief Spin Attack (21%, medium knockback). If Ghirahim is at 0%, he fires a sword beam on each side of himself.

Grab Game
Grab: Ghirahim grabs the opponent with his open hand and momentarily de-materializes his sword.
Pummel: Ghirahim slaps the opponent with his open hand (2%)
Forwards+Throw: A horizontal kick (9%, small knockback)
Back+Throw: Ghirahim flips the opponent over him (11%, OK knockback)
Up+Throw: An uppercut (11%. OK knockback)
Down+Throw: A downward knuckle punch (11% with a meteor effect, OK knockback)

Special Moves
B : Demon Diamonds; Ghirahim summons five knives from thin air and can point them in the direction tilted on the control stick (2% each, small knockback). They ricochet whenever they touch a surface.
B + ← → : Demon Sword; Ghirahim throws his sword straight forward before rematerializing it in his right hand (14%, OK knockback). The sword can go through multiple opponents, but it can’t go through shields.
B + ↑ : Spin Attack; Ghirahim pulls out two swords and performs a Spin Attack with both swords on each side (15%, OK knockback)
B + ↓ : Absorb; Ghirahim raises his hand to perform what the opponent would assume is a counter. However, when Ghirahim is hit, he instead grabs the opponent and absorbs their power, which doesn’t deal any damage…which is because this takes Ghirahim into Demon Mode, signified by his cape disappearing. The attack can also reflect projectiles if you do desire, but whatever the case, the attack only works from the front.

Final Smash: The Imprisoned One; Ghirahim transforms into his final form and erupts a pillar of dark diamonds (20%). Any opponents it hits are taken into a cutscene where the Imprisoned One appears and swallows them whole while Ghirahim performs his infamous dancing ritual (35%, far knockback). Any opponents above 100% are instantly K.O.’d.

Gimmick: Demon Mode
When Ghirahim absorbs another fighter’s power, his cape disappears and is replaced by a black demonic aura. In this state, not only does Ghirahim gain continuous super armor (though not as much as Bowser), but his special moves are given their own special boosts

• Ghirahim can summon ten spinning Demon Diamonds that circle around him and fire five of them at a time by pressing B again or let them fire one at a time. This time, they home in on the nearest opponent, but they can still be swatted away by an attack.
• Demon Sword now ignores shields and still goes through multiple opponents
• Spin Attack becomes faster and stronger
• Absorb is replaced by Teleport, which only allows Ghirahim to move up, left, right or down
• The longevity of Demon Mode depends on how Ghirahim is doing in a match
  • If Ghirahim is winning, Demon Mode only lasts 15 seconds
  • If Ghirahim is tied with the opponent, Demon Mode lasts 20 seconds
  • If Ghirahim is losing, Demon Mode lasts 30 seconds
  • You can end the mode early by using any of the special moves except Teleport

Taunts
Up: Ghirahim clenches his shoulders with both hands and sensually rears his head back.
Side: Ghirahim sticks his tongue out.
Down: Ghirahim dramatically squats down and makes a gesture with both of his hands reaching out.

Winposes
1: Ghirahim performs his infamous ritual dance.
2: Ghirahim appears to take a bow with both arms stretched out before sticking his tongue out and glaring at the camera with a sinister smile.
3: Ghirahim rears his head back, and an image of a dark Master Sword briefly appears.

Applause: Ghirahim writhes in pain, unable to comprehend his loss.
Icon: Triforce
Boxing Ring Title: Demon Lord
Star K.O.: “Huuaaaagh…!”
Victory Music: Victory! Zelda Series
Kirby Hat: Ghirahim’s hair and eyeliner

 

[Gengar84]

And now, your regularly scheduled update on the Microaoft-ActiBlizz buyout:

BREAKING: The UK regulator has provisionally approved Microsoft's acquisition of Activision Blizzard.

The CMA has remained the last major roadblock, but says Microsoft's offer to sell cloud rights to Ubisoft "opens the door to the deal being cleared".https://t.co/ZAHNBpWVBQ pic.twitter.com/df4RQNyZDM

— VGC (@VGC_News) September 22, 2023

Assuming nothing happens before the deadline (October 6th), we may FINALLY be getting to the end of this. Then I'll be able to come up with conspiracy theories about how this will lead to a Skylanders revival, thus leading to Skylanders in Smash...

Don't worry, Crash and Spyro will get in first. As will... most of ActiBlizz's catalogue...

I mean, Skylanders and Spyro are closely related so I imagine Spyro would likely come with some Skylanders content if he makes it in. As for myself, I’m mostly hoping for a WarCraft, StarCraft, or Diablo character in Smash as far as Activision/Blizzard goes. For Microsoft as a whole, I’d love to see a character from Battletoads, Kilker Instinct, or Perfect Dark as well. Crash and Spyro are probably a bit more likely than these as well but I’m not going to give up hope.

 

[Ivander]

Corrin took until this year's CYL to barely get second on the women's side behind the flavour of the week gacha villain in a year with extremely low turnout whilst Male Corrin has historically done awfully for a main protagonist and has never cracked the top 20 for the men's side. Even Leif's done this twice and one of those times was when his votes were split.

Not to disprove your point, but Male Corrin hit Top 15 for CYL6 and 7 on the men's side.
And yeah, F!Corrin only now won a CYL, but that's ignoring her being in the Top 10 each CYL except CYL4 which was overrun by Three Houses. But before CYL7, she was 5th, 9th, 6th, 11th, 5th and 4th respectively each CYL. Regardless of her reception, she is still a notably popular character.

That said, if Corrin stays, it'll be because of them being the playable Manakete/Dragon character. And if there's one thing fans keep asking for from Fire Emblem characters, it's more variety utilizing Fire Emblem's themes and mechanics.

 

[Schnee117]

Not to disprove your point, but Male Corrin hit Top 15 for CYL6 and 7 on the men's side.
And yeah, F!Corrin only now won a CYL, but that's ignoring her being in the Top 10 each CYL except CYL4 which was overrun by Three Houses. But before CYL7, she was 5th, 9th, 6th, 11th, 5th and 4th respectively each CYL. Regardless of her reception, she is still a notably popular character.

Oh yeah the thing I was looking at only had overall rankings and didn't even mention the Men and Women's categories for some weird reason now I'm looking closer.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I mean, Skylanders and Spyro are closely related so I imagine Spyro would likely come with some Skylanders content if he makes it in. As for myself, I’m mostly hoping for a WarCraft, StarCraft, or Diablo character in Smash as far as Activision/Blizzard goes. For Microsoft as a whole, I’d love to see a character from Battletoads, Kilker Instinct, or Perfect Dark as well. Crash and Spyro are probably a bit more likely than these as well but I’m not going to give up hope.

Maybe, but that's mostly in regards to the first game, which was literally called "Spyro's Adventure". After that, it pretty much became its own thing, with Spyro and a few other characters thrown in as part of it. I wouldn't be surprised if we at least got a few songs from Skylanders with Spyro, but overall it might be better to count it as its own thing.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

"There's more Fire Emblem in Smash than there should be" is my way of saying "I hate Fire Emblem".

Im pretty sure its only like that because of "Everyone is here"

Personally i feel like Fire Emblem is like Pokemon in that there's just so much to choose from it would be an injustice to have so little on the roster.

Xenoblade theoretically should also be like that since it's also a series that introduces new characters in every game but it's only been in smash for two games, i'm sure we'll get a fourth Xenoblade character next game.

 

[Sucumbio]

I'd have loved a laguz in Smash speaking of FE mechanics. We also don't have any dedicated axe or spear users. Or a mounted/flying unit.

 

[cashregister9]

Listen, If I had the choice to add any fire emblem characters...

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

Given Fire Emblem is being discussed again, a three-character roster I might suggest would be:

• Marth (the "legacy" pick, reoccurring protagonist from the series, pretty iconic all around. It'd also be nice for one of his victory screens to feature Caeda?)
• Anna (based specifically on her Awakening design, though is a fan-favourite reoccurring character and a new archetype given she's a merchant)
• Framme & Clanne (the twins from Engage, felt more interesting than just Alear, plus Framme's Martial Monk class coupled with Clanne's Mage class allows for a decent moveset that represents different elements of gameplay)

Obviously this is a scenario where we're talking about a big reboot for the Smash series but I think this'd work as a start

 

[SPEN18]

I don't think it's off-base to argue that Marth would even be higher priority than Fox. I mean, since he's the definition of an evergreen FE character (or maybe in this case it should be everblue, idk), it's pretty easy to argue he could be the highest-priority FE rep; and FE, unlike SF, is a fully active series right now.

Of course, the point of making this argument is not to suggest either Marth or Fox could be even remotely in danger because, well, they're not.

Also this maybe got lost in everything else but Shulk is not getting cut either

 

[Sucumbio]

Inb4marthiscut

Ok that's outta the way now back to reality.

I think it's time for Lyn.

 

[Perkilator]

I’ve said this before, but if I could pick FE’s representation, it would be:

• Marth (64, along with Bowser, King Dedede, Meowth and Mewtwo)
• Lyn (Brawl)
• Ike (also Brawl)
• One Awakening rep between Chrom, Lucina or Robin (Base Sm4sh)
• Azura (Sm4sh DLC)
• Byleth (SSBU DLC)

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Fire Emblem is a weird franchise for me because I have no interest in any of them as characters from their series, but enjoy the majority of their fighting mechanics. I don't really subscribe to the idea that their inclusion is necessarily taking away spots from anyone else, so my only real reaction to more coming in is a hope that they just play well. I do think building another entirely mystery Smash Presentation around a hypothetical future inclusion ala Byleth would be mistake (at least one without the elements that would soften the blow) but a major FE character popping up in a Nintendo/Smash Direct alongside others?

Provided their moves hit hard, I'm down.

 

[FazDude]

I think I said this before, but my ideal FE lineup is

• Marth
• Anna
• Hector
• Ike
• Azura
• Robin
• Byleth
• someone from engage idk

 

[Wonder Smash]

Fire Emblem is an iconic tactical RPG series and it's been a long-running series since 1990 (which is now over 30 years), so it's a very significant series by Nintendo and a series in the genre in itself. Therefore, I'm not surprise at the number of reps it has.

 

[Speed Weed]

Hey, sorry to barge in here, but I have something to report.

Some here may recall that a semi-common statement that was shared a while back was that Sakurai was inspired to start game development by winning a story contest for Phantasy Star II. Some ppl contested this fact, due to the fact that a lot of it was hearsay and concrete sources were obscure, and we all did a little digging and found out that there was at least some reason to believe it.

Welp, Sakurai just uploaded a video showing off a collection of personal memorabilia he has from throughout his career, and guess what - he showed off the very same certificate that was given away to winners, confirming definitively that this story is, in fact, true. It's a really cool bit of trivia so I'm glad we have closure on it.

nei in smash when

 

[Laniv]

Oh, we're talking about Fire Emblem again? Okay, here's my

Fire Emblem in Smash having eight playable characters and none of them being villains is nothing short of laughable

 

[Master Hero Sock-on-Rye]

To sway away from FE discussion, which I apologize for resurrecting, I'd like to comment on the MicroBlizz update:

If we somehow do get to where Microsoft officially owns Activision-Blizzard, I'd honestly prefer an Xbox crossover fighting game, specifically because of how many characters they own.

Who wouldn't want to see Doomguy being friends with Banjo? Raz trying to read Master Chief's mind? Dragonborn and Spyro being rivals?

 

[Ivander]

Oh, we're talking about Fire Emblem again? Okay, here's my

Fire Emblem in Smash having eight playable characters and none of them being villains is nothing short of laughable

The problem is most of the playable characters are much more popular than the villains. The only Fire Emblem villains who've reached some or alot of popularity outside the FE fanbase are the Black Knight from Fire Emblem Path of Radiance/Radiant Dawn, Grima from Fire Emblem Awakening(and obviously, they aren't easily playable due to them being 50 times more bigger than Ridley) and:

Spoiler: Three Houses Spoilers

Edelgard in Routes not her own and Rhea in Edelgard's route. And both really overshadow Black Knight and Grima in popularity.

Outside of them, most other villains are nowhere near as popular as them or some of their popularity is mainly within the FE fanbase, like Nergal and Lyon.

 

[Opossum]

Oh, we're talking about Fire Emblem again? Okay, here's my

Fire Emblem in Smash having eight playable characters and none of them being villains is nothing short of laughable

I don't really agree. Nine times out of ten the game's protagonist will be leaps and bounds more popular than the same game's villains when it comes to Fire Emblem. Not counting cases like the House Leaders where whoever you don't pick will be antagonistic down the road, or Veronica from Heroes who goes through a redemption arc, Black Knight is the only all-out antagonist who comes close in popularity to the main lords of the series. And even then, within the Tellius games themselves, he'd be competing for the second spot (after Ike) with Soren and Micaiah, who are, respectively, an incredibly popular supporting character and a main Lord.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I know people want more villains but Fire Emblem really isn't the way to go here. Not only are there 8 characters already, but none of them really stand out amongst the heroes, barring Edelgard and Black Knight. We are not getting either of those for a variety of reasons.

If you want more first party villains, look for things like DJ Octavio, Waluigi, King Boo and a Zelda villain.


Btw DJ Octavio is my preferred Splatoon rep.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Oh, we're talking about Fire Emblem again? Okay, here's my

Fire Emblem in Smash having eight playable characters and none of them being villains is nothing short of laughable

Spoilers for a 10 year old game
Robin technically counts

 

[toonito]

My ideal FE roster

(as alt), , and Lyn

 

[Sucumbio]

It's also quite possible we don't get an Engage rep at all, or rather there's already a new game by the time smash dev starts in earnest.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Spoilers for a 10 year old game
Robin technically counts

No not really.

No more than Shadow Queen's possession makes Peach a villain.

Grima is a separate entity.

 

[Megadoomer]

My pick for a Fire Emblem roster (though I haven't played Engage, and I have no interest in doing so):

-Marth (he's not going anywhere)

-Lucina (I feel like having four characters that use Marth's moveset as a base is excessive, to say the least, and I like having an option that doesn't rely on a tipper mechanic)

-Ike (I haven't played his games, and I don't use him much in Smash, but he seems popular enough)

-Robin (Awakening saved the series, by my understanding, and he adds some gameplay variety by focusing on the series' magic system)

-Edelgard (would have preferred her over Byleth)

-Tiki (specifically the Awakening version; she seems like one of the most recurring characters in the series, though I was torn between her or Anna)

Admittedly, my only experience with the series consists of Awakening, one route of Fire Emblem: Three Houses, Fire Emblem Warriors, and a bit of Fates (I tried the Birthright route; wasn't a fan) and the original, so I'm likely not well-informed on the series.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Black Knight as Ike Echo.
Done.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

My own weird personal bias was always that i want Celica, as a weird fusion of Robin and Lucina's general movesets.

Since she uses both a sword and magic and she's one of the protagonists of my favorite FE game.

Also i like red haired anime girls.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Black Knight as Ike Echo.
Done.

That doesn't work.

Black Knight can't do Ike's animations. The big defining feature of echoes was that they can keep the same skeleton and work from there. Not only is Black Knight's basic design vastly different, but him trying any of Ike's animations would cause massive clipping. Remember, Isabelle couldn't be counted as an echo because her base design was just too different. Black Knight and Ike have wildly different designs.

"But he learned swordfighting from the same guy Ike did." Yeah and he uses it in zero of his animations, in every Fire Emblem game he's in, AND Smash. He's supposed to be massive and super heavy. He's an intimidating presence. So heavy his steps shake the earth. His actions are slow and deliberate. Him doing the flips with Aether, zooming around with Quick Draw or doing a variety of Ike's more acrobatic moves would be out of character and bizarre looking.

"But he has a high speed stat in the game. He can do those flips and stuff." Yeah, so do Ike and Robin. It didn't matter when designing their movements. The speed stat is there to make him a difficult boss, not to accurately display how he's supposed to move.

We really need to stop saying this.

 

[SPEN18]

I don't think reaching for characters that recur is really the way to go with FE, especially when they play relatively minor roles in most of their appearances. This series clearly operates a lot differently than other series with a more fixed core cast, so it shouldn't be surprising that qualities other than recurrence tend to be more important when it comes to identifying good candidates to represent it.
I don't think reaching for villains is the way to go, either. As it was said above, there are still some great potential villain or villainous reps from other series but FE's villains tend to pale in comparison to the other options.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

For real though.

DJ Octavio is pretty dope, y'all.

 

[dream1ng]

It's not about hating FE, FE just has a lot of characters. Series with more characters are likelier to get more cuts. It's also not as big as series with a comparable amount of characters, which means its characters, by and large, aren't as big either. It's also a series with a rotating cast, which means as the series continues, very few characters maintain a notable role in any kind of fixed sense. The series also has a lot of derivative characters.

Reasons why we may get comparatively more cuts from that series than others, when the roster starts again.

 

[Perkilator]

Incidentally, Arvis makes for a pretty decent villain rep as far as FE goes.