Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Lenidem]

Sakurai said that they were a significant investment in development. My guess is the insane amount of stages and Everyone is Here were chosen over them as in all the development trophies could have had went to those concepts instead.

I for one MUCH prefer that and I really don't want trophies to come back. I'd rather all that development went to character reworks, new and returning stages, new and returning modes, extra moves and the like.

Yeah, I agree. For the big picture, Spirits are probably better. It's for themselves that trophies are much more enjoyable. I mean, if I have to choose between them and more stages or fighters, of course I'll take the second option. It's if I have to choose between looking at a Spirit and looking at a trophy that the choice is different.

You guys keep asking for spirits with the trophy descriptions, but iirc aren't the descriptions the reason for this whole problem in the first place? A huge amount of the trophies from the previous games were pulled right from their games, so the Smash team didn't actually put that much work into 3D modeling. SSBU has to be translated into over a dozen languages, and even if the description is just a paragraph that would still be approaching a thousand trophy descriptions that need to be translated. Sakurai himself said that was the reason for dropping trophies, didn't he?

As much as I thought the trophy descriptions were super fun, I know it's right to prefer the game can be translated to more languages so more people can play the game.

Still, they could at least list the debut game and one extra appearance for spirits like they did before...

Come on, writing descriptions and translate it is no big deal. It's a one-man job, not like they have to be dubbed or something.

 

[Simnm]

Yeah, I agree. For the big picture, Spirits are probably better. It's for themselves that trophies are much more enjoyable. I mean, if I have to choose between them and more stages or fighters, of course I'll take the second option. It's if I have to choose between looking at a Spirit and looking at a trophy that the choice is different.



Come on, writing descriptions and translate it is no big deal. It's a one-man job, not like they have to be dubbed or something.

I actually like spirits better since you can have spirit battles and they can give you abilities that can reference said spirits

 

[Lenidem]

I actually like spirits better since you can have spirit battles and they can give you abilities that can reference said spirits

Mmm. The battles could be fought exactly the same to win trophies as rewards instead of Spirits. As for the abilities, sometimes it's fun to discover what they refer to, yes (yesterday I was wondering what Tails does: it upgrades your up-b, which makes sense, I guess), but I never use them anyway.

 

[Yamat08]

For example's sake, I'll show what stories could have been given to some of Ult's Classic Modes.

Wii Fit Trainer: Trainer keeps talking about helping her opponents get in shape. Said opponents are either befuddled or angered.
Incineroar: Hammy pro-wrestling skits.
Lucas: Trains in magical skills with his opponents after beating them, growing in confidence along the way.
Meta Knight: Believes the Dimension Mirror is creating evil clones, so he attempts to locate it.
Bowser: Show how the obsession implicit in the route's premise (all red characters) is affecting Bowser's personality.

The problem with this is about half of the Smash cast has pretty much no real dialogue, and several of the ones that do would need to be re-dubbed in multiple languages. Hell, it's funny that you use Wii Fit Trainer as an example, considering she's one of the only characters to have a separate American and British English voice (and then just to make it even more complicated, there's also a female and male variant).

Still, I don't think it'd be too difficult to implement something along the lines of Melee's Adventure cutscenes.

 

[Paraster]

The problem with this is about half of the Smash cast has pretty much no real dialogue, and several of the ones that do would need to be re-dubbed in multiple languages. Hell, it's funny that you use Wii Fit Trainer as an example, considering she's one of the only characters to have a separate American and British English voice (and then just to make it even more complicated, there's also a female and male variant).

Still, I don't think it'd be too difficult to implement something along the lines of Melee's Adventure cutscenes.

Yeah, I was thinking characters that don't speak could just have narration for their story scenes.

 

[ForsakenM]

Hey guys, got a job and my new PC needed a new board and CPU, so I've been a busy guy. On top of that, all the work I did on my really big Expected Newcomers post and one where I was responding to dream1ng about the differences between being recognizable, being popular, and being supported ****ing vanished when my CPU died for the final time...despite me saving the latter on Google Docs, it's nowhere to be found...

Thus, that was rather discouraging, and with only having between four and six hours after training to do anything, I spent it on watching YT and will now spend it on gaming and making YT content. Not that I don't have anything to talk about here, but more that things I've wanted to say SHOULD have been posted here already and putting in the time to redo them with the effort that I had put in while trying to remember everything I wanted to say...that's a lot of energy over something no one would really appreciate.

Anywho, as far as Spirits vs Trophies, I'm pretty sure the reason they were skipped this time around is because each trophy is uniquely designed (I don't think they ever just ported over any Trophies, but I might be wrong) and it takes a lot of work to make a brand new 3D model for hundreds or thousands of trophies than it does just slapping in hundreds of PNGs and coding them to do some small stuff. Considering that Sakurai and Co. were rushed for this development when you consider the monumental task ahead of them, this makes sense as a decision, and it's clear they didn't want to go from how awesome trophies were to just plain PNGs so they built something around it.

Pretty sure it was nothing to do with description translations. Someone could do that in a week or so.

 

[Perkilator]

This reminds me; I like how the OoT artwork that Young Link's Classic Trophy in Melee is based on would eventually be used as his Spirit in Ultimate.

View attachment 339593View attachment 339594

Still kinda sad his specials and Final Smash aren't based on Majora's Mask. You could've also given him the Mirror Shield and Razor Sword for his normal attacks.

 

[Deleted member]

Smash 4's custom moves are a goldmine of improvement ideas for some low-tier veterans' moves next Smash, and I wish there was more discussion about them.

Fighters such a and already got some of their special moves being changed based on their custom moves, namely Turbo Missile and Hyper Monado Arts respectively, but imagine the following:

• 's Din's Fire having a second type based on Din's Blaze if the stick is tapped instead of tilted.
• 's Wizard's Foot performing like Wizard's Dropkick if used in the air.
• performing his Dash Counter instead of his Slip Counter if the stick is tilted forward.
• 's default down special being Distant Nosferatu, that becomes regular Nosferatu if the opponent is close enough.

 

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

If we brought back custom moves to Smash 6, I predict that how K. Rool's custom moves would look like:
Neutral Special: (Based on DKC 2)
Spike Ball - K. Rool shoots Spike balls that attach to opponents
Blunderstream - K. Rool shoots out Water instead of Balls.

 

[ForsakenM]

Smash 4's custom moves are a goldmine of improvement ideas for some low-tier veterans' moves next Smash, and I wish there was more discussion about them.

Fighters such a and already got some of their special moves being changed based on their custom moves, namely Turbo Missile and Hyper Monado Arts respectively, but imagine the following:

• 's Din's Fire having a second type based on Din's Blaze if the stick is tapped instead of tilted.
• 's Wizard's Foot performing like Wizard's Dropkick if used in the air.
• performing his Dash Counter instead of his Slip Counter if the stick is tilted forward.
• 's default down special being Distant Nosferatu, that becomes regular Nosferatu if the opponent is close enough.

Still hoping Aerial Smash Attacks make it in next time.

Learn from other Sakurai: Rivals made it work with one character, NASB essentially gives it to the entire roster. We need more experimentation, Smash is so bland in this regard that Terry having two side specials is like finding the Holy Grail.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I don't think they ever just ported over any Trophies, but I might be wrong

The trophy selection's been full of recycled models starting with Brawl.

The biggest issue would be with Ultimate's physically-based rendering system. It requires every texture to have several lightmaps to control how a model is lit/shaded, while Smash 4 could get away with lower priority models (IE: Trophies ripped from Wii games) not having any lightmaps, just a base texture.

 

[PeridotGX]

Still hoping Aerial Smash Attacks make it in next time.

Learn from other Sakurai: Rivals made it work with one character, NASB essentially gives it to the entire roster. We need more experimentation, Smash is so bland in this regard that Terry having two side specials is like finding the Holy Grail.

Robin has aerial smash attacks. Also, in what world is Sakurai not experimenting with characters? Most of the DLC characters have unique mechanics, some are gimmicks (Rebellion Gauge, Go! meter, Crafting Table) some are just interesting new attacks (Poision Breath, Wonderwing, Shadow Flare), and some characters have both (Hero, Steve). The only character that I don't think does anything overly new is Byleth. 11/12 isn't a bad score.

 

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

Robin has aerial smash attacks. Also, in what world is Sakurai not experimenting with characters? Most of the DLC characters have unique mechanics, some are gimmicks (Rebellion Gauge, Go! meter, Crafting Table) some are just interesting new attacks (Poision Breath, Wonderwing, Shadow Flare), and some characters have both (Hero, Steve). The only character that I don't think does anything overly new is Byleth. 11/12 isn't a bad score.

Yeah, it's not bad.
Even we could use add Robin's Aerial smash attacks to everyone to make it more fair.
Also, you're right about Gimmicks like Go! Meter or Rage.
Also, you're Also right again about Interesting Attacks, since they make smash more interesting and more gimmicky.

Man, can't wait to see my some of my Most wanted newcomers joining the Roster.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Anywho, as far as Spirits vs Trophies, I'm pretty sure the reason they were skipped this time around is because each trophy is uniquely designed (I don't think they ever just ported over any Trophies, but I might be wrong) and it takes a lot of work to make a brand new 3D model for hundreds or thousands of trophies than it does just slapping in hundreds of PNGs and coding them to do some small stuff. Considering that Sakurai and Co. were rushed for this development when you consider the monumental task ahead of them, this makes sense as a decision, and it's clear they didn't want to go from how awesome trophies were to just plain PNGs so they built something around it.

The issue with trophies was never just creating models. The vast majority of trophies re use models from pre existing games and as a result are posed and moved to fit a certain design. The issue is moreso translation. Every trophy has a paragraph that must quickly talk about the character in question. Now you have to translate that text into multiple languages, making sure to the best of your ability that the text lines up. While you always have some descriptions that fall through the cracks, like say K Rool in Brawl, you still have a massive amount of QA and translations that would not be needed if you just did Spirits instead.

Even putting aside translations, plenty of trophies do have 3D models that are created specifically for smash with no gameplay role whatsoever. While they do their best to use pre existing models, there is a noticeable amount of franchises that outright need you to have their models made from scratch. Maybe they do not have a high quality enough recent model to use. Trophies just take a ton of resources to do. While it is cool to read a cool trophy description and it might help you learn about cool characters, it is a massive drain on development resources. I know a lot of people complain about how development resources have been used, but returning to trophies, outside of easy ones like for the characters in the roster, I think would be wasteful.

 

[Lenidem]

The issue with trophies was never just creating models. The vast majority of trophies re use models from pre existing games and as a result are posed and moved to fit a certain design. The issue is moreso translation. Every trophy has a paragraph that must quickly talk about the character in question. Now you have to translate that text into multiple languages, making sure to the best of your ability that the text lines up. While you always have some descriptions that fall through the cracks, like say K Rool in Brawl, you still have a massive amount of QA and translations that would not be needed if you just did Spirits instead.

Even putting aside translations, plenty of trophies do have 3D models that are created specifically for smash with no gameplay role whatsoever. While they do their best to use pre existing models, there is a noticeable amount of franchises that outright need you to have their models made from scratch. Maybe they do not have a high quality enough recent model to use. Trophies just take a ton of resources to do. While it is cool to read a cool trophy description and it might help you learn about cool characters, it is a massive drain on development resources. I know a lot of people complain about how development resources have been used, but returning to trophies, outside of easy ones like for the characters in the roster, I think would be wasteful.

But the guy translating the descriptions does not also work on the characters or stages. It's a totally different job done by a totally different person. And it's not like the amount of cumulated text was uge or anything. If the Pokédex still has a description for every single Pokémon in the game, I don't see why Smash couldn't do the same. Dragon Quest XI also has descriptions for all the bestiary.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

But the guy translating the descriptions does not also work on the characters or stages. It's a totally different job done by a totally different person. And it's not like the amount of cumulated text was uge or anything. If the Pokédex still has a description for every single Pokémon in the game, I don't see why Smash couldn't do the same. Dragon Quest XI also has descriptions for all the bestiary.

It still effects the game for a few reasons.

1. Translations are expensive. Making games are expensive, and the amount of work you need to translate, especially in modern smash, is not a small number. Smash 4 and Smash Wii U both had over 700 trophies after DLC. There certainly are overlaps between both games, but even if you say around half of the trophies between both versions were the same, that is still well over 1000 trophies you need to translate for a game that outside of trophies is very light on translation work.


2. It makes a global launch much harder. Nintendo as of now has been focusing on getting its releases out at the same general time and not having too much of a gap nowadays. Even for the big text heavy games that nintendo pushes, like Three Houses or even third party titles they pushed like DQXI or SMTV, there is a big focus on launching very close to the same time worldwide. In a modern Smash Ultimate, you are asking Nintendo to pour a lot more resources and time into translating a whole game that traditionally does not have much text if you want it to have say 900+ trophies.

This is important because while separate teams handle both aspects, money is not finite. Nintendo is not solely creating Smash as a gift to the fans: Nintendo is a business. They want the game releasing at a certain time, meeting QA, with plenty of content. Trophies in comparison are a huge drain on resources beyond just having to make models for a few of them. You have to spend time writing descriptions, making sure the descriptions are accurate, writing a paragraph about the character, and then translate that into multiple languages. Obviously creating models is its own massive resource drain, but the entire process of making trophies has always been something that can make development take longer. There's a reason for the vast majority of trophies they can get away with it for, they re use models to cut development time. But even with having to only create 10% of the models needed for trophies that are not tied to a stage, fighter, assist trophy, or Pokeball, you still are forced to create a detailed model and go through the entire process.

Compare that with the workload for spirits. You merely acquire the PNGs, or have one commissioned in the very slim chance you do not have access to a new one (see Pyra, Mythra, and Min Min all getting new spirit artwork or Pneuma getting official artwork for the first time). You have a team make a small event match that fits for the character the best you can with Smash's limitations. You come up with how the spirit will function when you have it. Resource time, this takes a fraction of the time and effort compared to the amount of total effort needed for trophies. It just is a lot less effort and also has the benefit of allowing you to get the game out easier for a global release. You can even easily add them post launch to help with DLC releases or to promote new games. Seeing a new game get represented by a spirit event is at least a decent consolation prize. Sure, Astral Chain has to wait until the next game, but at least for me the game is in smash in some form.

Obviously, I like trophies in concept. They are a cool way to view a character and show them off. Melees trophies hold a special place in my heart, helping me envision characters like King K Rool, Ridley, Ray, and Mach Rider as Smash characters. Brawl's ATs helped me further learn about cool ATs I would have loved to see playable like Saki, Isaac, and Ray, giving me more info on the characters and learning of their home series. Trophies are a super cool idea in concept, but the execution clearly takes a lot the bigger smash gets. Smash 4 for wii u and 3ds, being conservative and guessing ~50% of the trophies are re used between both games, would still have over 1000 trophies. Ultimate could easily have gotten ~1000 trophies as well. Likely the next game after that if they did trophies could easily have 1300+. At the end of the day, Trophies make sense to have go. If you really want to have trophies stay around in some concept, I would say doing them for the fighters as a bare minimum is something that not only fits with smash's lore, but does give the player a larger grasp on the characters. The precedent for that exists with Smash 64's character descriptions.

 

[Dan Quixote]

If you really want to have trophies stay around in some concept, I would say doing them for the fighters as a bare minimum is something that not only fits with smash's lore, but does give the player a larger grasp on the characters. The precedent for that exists with Smash 64's character descriptions.

This is a good idea, actually. I wouldn't want the North American release delayed for some neat trivia, but giving descriptions to just the fighters and maybe bosses and assist trophies should be a monumentally smaller task. Best of both worlds here.

 

[Lenidem]

It still effects the game for a few reasons.

1. Translations are expensive. Making games are expensive, and the amount of work you need to translate, especially in modern smash, is not a small number. Smash 4 and Smash Wii U both had over 700 trophies after DLC. There certainly are overlaps between both games, but even if you say around half of the trophies between both versions were the same, that is still well over 1000 trophies you need to translate for a game that outside of trophies is very light on translation work.


2. It makes a global launch much harder. Nintendo as of now has been focusing on getting its releases out at the same general time and not having too much of a gap nowadays. Even for the big text heavy games that nintendo pushes, like Three Houses or even third party titles they pushed like DQXI or SMTV, there is a big focus on launching very close to the same time worldwide. In a modern Smash Ultimate, you are asking Nintendo to pour a lot more resources and time into translating a whole game that traditionally does not have much text if you want it to have say 900+ trophies.

This is important because while separate teams handle both aspects, money is not finite. Nintendo is not solely creating Smash as a gift to the fans: Nintendo is a business. They want the game releasing at a certain time, meeting QA, with plenty of content. Trophies in comparison are a huge drain on resources beyond just having to make models for a few of them. You have to spend time writing descriptions, making sure the descriptions are accurate, writing a paragraph about the character, and then translate that into multiple languages. Obviously creating models is its own massive resource drain, but the entire process of making trophies has always been something that can make development take longer. There's a reason for the vast majority of trophies they can get away with it for, they re use models to cut development time. But even with having to only create 10% of the models needed for trophies that are not tied to a stage, fighter, assist trophy, or Pokeball, you still are forced to create a detailed model and go through the entire process.

Compare that with the workload for spirits. You merely acquire the PNGs, or have one commissioned in the very slim chance you do not have access to a new one (see Pyra, Mythra, and Min Min all getting new spirit artwork or Pneuma getting official artwork for the first time). You have a team make a small event match that fits for the character the best you can with Smash's limitations. You come up with how the spirit will function when you have it. Resource time, this takes a fraction of the time and effort compared to the amount of total effort needed for trophies. It just is a lot less effort and also has the benefit of allowing you to get the game out easier for a global release. You can even easily add them post launch to help with DLC releases or to promote new games. Seeing a new game get represented by a spirit event is at least a decent consolation prize. Sure, Astral Chain has to wait until the next game, but at least for me the game is in smash in some form.

Obviously, I like trophies in concept. They are a cool way to view a character and show them off. Melees trophies hold a special place in my heart, helping me envision characters like King K Rool, Ridley, Ray, and Mach Rider as Smash characters. Brawl's ATs helped me further learn about cool ATs I would have loved to see playable like Saki, Isaac, and Ray, giving me more info on the characters and learning of their home series. Trophies are a super cool idea in concept, but the execution clearly takes a lot the bigger smash gets. Smash 4 for wii u and 3ds, being conservative and guessing ~50% of the trophies are re used between both games, would still have over 1000 trophies. Ultimate could easily have gotten ~1000 trophies as well. Likely the next game after that if they did trophies could easily have 1300+. At the end of the day, Trophies make sense to have go. If you really want to have trophies stay around in some concept, I would say doing them for the fighters as a bare minimum is something that not only fits with smash's lore, but does give the player a larger grasp on the characters. The precedent for that exists with Smash 64's character descriptions.

I'm not convinced at all. Yes, everything costs money, even translating. But Nintendo can totally afford to pay the translators. Pokémon does it, for all the Pokédex entries. Dragon Quest XI also has like 750 descriptions of ennemies, on top of a gazillion lines of dialogues. Breath of the Wild has an encyclopedia. To my knowledge, none of those games' launch suffered from it, so I really don't see why Smash would be an exception.

Besides, no one really asked for this many Spirits. Obviously, if they had descriptions, they would be fewer.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I mean is the budget for creating 1500 models and 1500 descriptions worth cutting a character for? Money is money. Allocating a budget means sacrifices have to be made somewhere. It might not seem like these things overlap but you’d be surprised with what you’ll find. A budget isn’t just money either but time. Is it worth paying a good chunk of budget to someone to make models that spin or playable models? Is it worth putting money into descriptions for each one or have a story mode?

It’s just a lot of “which is more important”.

Edit: People definitely don’t realize how much of Smash is a budgetary nightmare. Who knows maybe Nintendo having to pay Square-Enix a lot to get Cloud back made them sacrifice trophies. How much budget are we going to put into DLC? Well I guess it depends on how much those outside companies want for their characters.

 

[Yamat08]

If you really want to have trophies stay around in some concept, I would say doing them for the fighters as a bare minimum is something that not only fits with smash's lore, but does give the player a larger grasp on the characters. The precedent for that exists with Smash 64's character descriptions.

And if you think about it, Ultimate already has character descriptions in the form of the tutorial blurbs (which, unlike the idiotic way Smash4 handled it, can be freely browsed).

 

[Lenidem]

I mean is the budget for creating 1500 models and 1500 descriptions worth cutting a character for?

I'm talking about adding descriptions to a reduced number of Spirits. Not keeping as many Spirits as we have now, turn them into trophies, and add descriptions.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I'm talking about adding descriptions to a reduced number of Spirits. Not keeping as many Spirits as we have now, turn them into trophies, and add descriptions.

Well that’s still sacrificing one thing for another. My whole point.

 

[Sucumbio]

I miss trophies ngl. I used to just sift through them, look at them in 3D, read the historical blurb. I miss stickers too.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Speaking of Spirits, why didn't this guy get one?

Cat who gives the user information on how to use the News Channel. According to developers, his name is Runda and the cat from the Photo Channel is Rassie, his younger sister.

— Obscure Nintendo Character of the Day Descriptions (@oncotd_guide) December 5, 2021

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Why did the Bit Trip Runner guy not get a Spirit despite having a Trophy in Smash Wii U?

 

[Trevenant]

Sakurai did say the smash games in total have costed like some ridiculous amount of cash. I don't know exactly but it was probably at least like 10 million yen, which, even when split between the 5 smash games, is still pretty ridiculous in regards to any game, especially one like smash. Still though, chances are it was way more..

Why did the Bit Trip Runner guy not get a Spirit despite having a Trophy in Smash Wii U?

The guy was probably very lucky to get in smash 4. Bittrip barely exists nowadays IIRC, and the only reason he got in back then was cos Nintendo had some hand in the games IIRC. Don't quote me on that, but considering it was the only indie content smash 4 even had, I must imagine they had pretty good reason to include it if it isn't too big a deal in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Lenidem]

Well that’s still sacrificing one thing for another. My whole point.

I never disagreed with that.

 

[chocolatejr9]

taps mic

clears throat

HOLY COW!!!!!!!!!

I found another potential FE rep.

 

[DarthEnderX]

If the Pokédex still has a description for every single Pokémon in the game

Two descriptions. Each version usually has a different description for each Pokemon.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I never disagreed with that.

Then there’s the disconnect. A lot of people want more and more. 1500 collectible spirits without descriptions might not sound enticing to you but the amount of people who actually read the descriptions of trophies is likely a lot smaller than you would think. Most people don’t even care about the trophies or spirits in the first place. Let alone an entire paragraph dedicated to the Bucket from Mario & Wario that only released in Japan.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

I think it would be cool if in the future, you could make your own coloured alts for characters. Not like, drawing stuff, because that would be banned instantly - more like, you select specialised regions of a character and you can change the colour there. That seems like something that would be cool!

You know what, add something else to it - hats. What if like, every character could be given one of a large collection of hats TF2 style but you unlock them throughout the game? Seems like something cool - I'm just imagining now, someone is absoutely gonna make like, red NFT monke DK wearing Marx's hat or something and it'll be hell.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

But the guy translating the descriptions does not also work on the characters or stages. It's a totally different job done by a totally different person. And it's not like the amount of cumulated text was uge or anything. If the Pokédex still has a description for every single Pokémon in the game, I don't see why Smash couldn't do the same. Dragon Quest XI also has descriptions for all the bestiary.

You listed two JRPGs, which have to invest a ton into localization. There are dedicated companies that have helped games get localized in the west, like Working Designs in the past or X Seed now, which directly handle localization. The process of localizing a game with that much text is a hassle. Game Freak gets it done because Pokemon is the most profitable IP of all time and they can throw money at localization, but for the many games that have a ton of text, localization is a nightmare. If you want a great example of the nightmare scenario, look up Trails in the Sky SC's localization. They did an amazing job but the process for such a text heavy game is grueling work.

In comparison to JRPGs which have a lot of text needed to be translated, from lengthy combat menus to beastiaries to a metric ton of story, Smash does not need to have that much localization work. You have announcers per each region, most of the characters have 2-3 crowd cheers globally, and you have to translate a few names. Outside of the tips menu, nothing in Ultimate was nearly as lengthy of a localization issue as trophies were. Now imagine having to make sure that everything about this character's history is properly translated, accurate, and makes sense syntax wise. Now throw in the need for third parties to potentially approve your localization for their character's trophy names. The process for Trophies was a large

Furthermore, as I said before, even if trophy construction is not the same team as the people making stages or characters, money is not finite. Nintendo is a business trying to get a product out for a global launch. Trophies are an expensive piece of development time that can get in the way of that. Trophies also as much as I hate to say it are a niche facet of smash. I know Smashboards will care a lot about trophies, but it is important to realize Smashboards is not a representative sample 100% of the time. In order to be in Smashboards' pool, you have to have gone out of your way to opt into a forum dedicated to Smash Bros. While in some ways Smashboards can represent the greater fan base, it is not always representative. Given the nature of Trophies in the past few games, I would not be surprised if there was a greater interest in making a story mode like WoL or SSE or more content for multiplayer modes instead of trophies...which they did.

I mean is the budget for creating 1500 models and 1500 descriptions worth cutting a character for? Money is money. Allocating a budget means sacrifices have to be made somewhere. It might not seem like these things overlap but you’d be surprised with what you’ll find. A budget isn’t just money either but time. Is it worth paying a good chunk of budget to someone to make models that spin or playable models? Is it worth putting money into descriptions for each one or have a story mode?

It’s just a lot of “which is more important”.

Edit: People definitely don’t realize how much of Smash is a budgetary nightmare. Who knows maybe Nintendo having to pay Square-Enix a lot to get Cloud back made them sacrifice trophies. How much budget are we going to put into DLC? Well I guess it depends on how much those outside companies want for their characters.

This. This so much. Smash will always have budget concerns given how much stuff is in it. Character development, licensing, music licensing, composing, stage design, balance, QA, Stages, story modes, extra single player content, wifi, you name it. You have so much you can work on. Would I love trophies to be in this game. Obviously. But its such a niche time sink for development. Many lay people who do not post on smashboards probably do not spend much time longing for trophies. Smash Ultimate sold over 20 million copies: how many of them would likely have looked a ton into Trophy mode?

 

[Ornl]

My first expectations

A museum
In my ideal, the next Smash would evolve as a virtual museum. We would therefore buy a party-fighting-game-museum to explore in 3D with our Mii, which would be completed with Smash challenges. Several Smash modes would be possible, but the main hall would first consist of exploring Trophy galleries with their descriptions and challenges. Thanks to online updates, the museum would be in constant expansion.

A pantheon
There would be the Pantheon of Fighters: the characters from the roster. The number of slots would be limited, minimal. In the selection screen, 12x6 (72) slots would seem to me to be a good compromise, including 3 Mii Fighters + the Random slot. There would therefore be 68 characters.
→ 24 of them would be GOATs (1 by series).
→ If there are more than 2 Fighters from a same series, the first mate would be protected.
→ Others could be excluded or integrated by the community.

If I could choose 24 GOATs
• 12 Nintendo veterans: Donkey Kong [1, 2, 3, 7, 8] · Inkling [2, 3, 4, 5, 6] · Isabelle [1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7] · Kirby [2, 7] · Link [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8] · Mario [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8] · Marth [3, 6] · Mr. Game & Watch [2] · Pikachu [1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7] · Ness [2, 6] · Samus [8] · Wii Fit Trainer [2, 3, 6, 7]
• 12 third-party: Chun-Li [1, 2, 4, 6, 7] · Cloud [1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8] · Heros [2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8] · Joker [3, 4, 5, 6, 7 (SMT)] · Lara Croft [1, 6, 7] · Mega Man [2, 6, 7, 8] · Pac-Man [1, 2, 4, 7] · Simon [7, 8] · Sonic [1, 2, 6, 7] · Snake [3, 5, 6, 7] · Space Invaders [1, 2, 4, 7] · Steve/Alex [1, 2, 3, 7]
____________________________
• Other: 2B [2, 3, 4, 5, 6] · Bayonetta [5, 6] · Banjo & Kazooie [–] · Dante [3, 7] · Doom Slayer [1] · Jibanyan [2, 3, 4, 5, 7] · Kazuya [2] · Master Chief [1, 6, 7] · Rathalos [2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7] · Sora [3, 5, 6] · Terry [–] · Tetris [1, 2, 5, 7, 8]
____________________________
Influences
1. World Video Game Hall of Fame
2. ANA Game Chronicle
3. Japan Game Awards
4. CEDEC Awards
5. Famitsu Awards & (nearly) perfect review scores
6. Famitsu's readers best games of all time (2016, 2017, 2019)
7. Highest grossing & best-selling video game franchises
8. (extra) Captain N: The Game Master

A community participation
Tournaments, contests and official votes would make it possible to protect chosen Fighters over a period of time, or to increase the popularity rating of excluded Fighters. It's true that there would be a certain number of Fighters who would be developed, but not playable because of the results. However, the different stages and music would remain available.

 

[Dan Quixote]

In this translation discussion I feel the need to reiterate that SSBU has been translated into more languages than almost every other video game under the Sun. They've even got Russian and Dutch and both Chineses! Not to mention having to do English (and maybe Spanish?) twice for the NTSC/PAL differences. That's actually more than Pokémon if you'll believe it. It adds up my dudes.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Not to mention having to do English (and maybe Spanish?) twice for the NTSC/PAL differences

The differences between the US and UK English versions of Ultimate aren't as drastic as Smash 4's, actually.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Gonna disagree and say we are only a couple years away IMO.

Not sure if you guys know this or not, but Furakawa had an investors meeting and was asked about next gen consoles and pressed on the issue when he tried to avoid it. His response was, paraphrasing of course, that 'they are in the planning stages for announcement and release' which, if that doesn't quite click right away, means they are in the planning stages for ANNOUNCING and RELEASING their next gen console and NOT in the planning stages of DESIGNING the next gen console.

In other words, Furakawa might as well have said 'it's a matter of when, not if' which to me means that, much like I already thought, the next gen Switch with 4K and whatnot always was a thing but got leaked way earlier than Nintendo would have liked. They already planned on having a slight update to the Switch with the OLED and everyone did that silly thing again where they disregard good information because it didn't pan out within their own sense of timely expectations.

When we first heard rumblings about it and then the OLED happened, I knew immediately that Nintendo was using this opportunity to convince people there was nothing the works so that they would be more likely to buy the OLED and throw people off their trail. It's mostly worked as well, but I feel like anyone can look at Bayo 3 and 3D Kirby and see that the Switch can barely handle these new games coming out. Nintendo is moving up in software, it's time for the hardware to keep up.

I'm going to toss out some of the other reasons I didn't mention in a previous post that 'Everyone Is Still Here!' is going to be a thing. This meeting with Furakawa confirming there is a next gen console in the works is a big part of it, but I already knew there was one: all this does is let is know they are ready to roll this thing out in the next couple years, so we have a timeframe between 1-3 years left before this happens.

Sakurai's own language in his most recent Famitsu is a big deal. Now, I will insist this here since I think people will make dumb assumptions if I don't, but I'm not saying we have proof Sakurai is already working on a new Smash title. We have no way of knowing that for sure at this point, and I wouldn't say anything otherwise. What I AM saying is that the language Sakurai used is his generic 'this is the last Smash for now and nothing is in the works at the moment' that he has used multiple times in his career. This is very safe and generic language and, more importantly, it's very similar to what he said at the end of Smash 4...you know, when he was already working on Ultimate shortly after? Like, in the planning stages at the very least in early 2016? In other words, Sakurai has done this old dog and pony show before, and the last time he did it he actually was working on Smash already. Thus, he COULD be in the planning stages of another title for a next gen console already and no one would ever be the wiser...well, MOST wouldn't.

What is also important is his language about not thinking anyone can replace what he brings to Smash, which matches up to his interviews with Harada, and his talk about not wanting to disappoint fans and his worry about making cuts. This first part is proof that Sakurai will be at the helm of Smash until he physically cannot do it anymore, so no, he's not retiring...though you may have gotten that already after it hasn't happened since Brawl. The second portion is proof enough TO ME that we will get a glorified port of Ultimate on a next gen console in a couple years, and it will have every single character that has been in the game all the way up to and including Sora. Of course it will have a number of QoL improvements and new features and more characters, but I think it will be largely the same...though I would be more than pleased to be wrong and outside of the roster it gets many massive changes.

One last thing to mention here is that Furakawa is the gamer president where as Kimishima was the businessman president. Sakurai wasn't given the option to delay Ultimate because it was only a couple months from coming out the door by the time Furakawa took charge. However, now Sakurai gets to make a game with a president that seems to be kinder and more understanding and more giving of creative freedom, which could easily mean that Sakurai gets more power back in regards to character choices as well as how DLC is done. Additionally, Furakawa believes that the SNES-Gamecube Era of Nintendo are the best Nintendo has ever been, which gives a big boost to the chances that a lot of these missing characters could and likely will show up in the base game of a Ultimate: Definitive Edition.

I think pupNapoleon gets to have some credit as he was the one who seemed to really bring back this topic around Sora's announcement, though I most definitely talked about this long before that and was basically asked to turn myself in to the psyche ward. I am very much convinced this is the route they will take, it's just perfectly set up.

Thanks for the credit!
I generally agree with you.

I know it has been a month of conversation that I missed, but as far as I'm concerned, we have definitive proof of the DX version of Smash, given Sakurai was working with Harada to implement Rollback Netcode. That cannot be added to a game that is already out.

Regardless, I think Sakurai is going to have a lot of tweaks he wants to make to improve this game.It is quite possible he truly isn't even considering what is next, at least not from his perspective, because he is fully focusing on the present. That's just the speech in habit of a successful man. Mindset is key.

He will go on his vacation, consider the offers from a dozen third parties that request their characters, and think of how much joy he can bring to Smash fans.

Listen- Sora was an incredible end of this game. But by no means does that diminish how huge other characters being added would be.
Base game- many Nintendo favorites, including the given of ones like a Ring Fit character (I stand by Dragaux), a couple other impactful third party characters (Bomberman or Frogger are the top thoughts in my eyes, followed by Crash or Rayman).
Then we have huge characters from still unexplored territories- Angry Birds for the mobile gaming, Agumon for virtual pets, the face of MMORPGs in Warcraft... we have many more Western icons that havnt been hit- Lara Croft, Master Chief, keep it coming.

This is putting aside the big fact that Sakurai's legacy is Smash Bros, which- again- is for a lover of the medium to create or ANY character in the medium, a chance that has never existed to this scale. Like any artist, Sakurai is going to continue to think of things that would make this game better. He very well could want to throw in some characters he never had the chance to in prior consideration (Balloon Fighter, Excite Biker, Takamaru, Ayumi, Sukapon, Rayman, Chorus Kids, Dixie Kong...)
As much as a third fighters pass would have been great, there was unlikely going to be a shot at having DLC packs cost more than the base game. Not to mention the economic diminishing of returns by keeping the same game alive for too long.

The new game will fix old issues, rehype the community, serve as greater business partnerships for Nintendo, and promote the new system. It is going to happen. I cannot fathom contracts not having been made for the DX cut within the creation of Ultimate, just as Sm4sh DLC absolutely had to have included the contracting for Smash Ultimate.

The only fallacy in this logic is that Nintendo is Nintendo, which could in theory, mean none of this matters at all, and the new system is going to be a full on remake of the Famicom.


As a side note, I'm waiting for Mario to be added to the WB Multiversus.

 

[Yamat08]

Given the nature of Trophies in the past few games, I would not be surprised if there was a greater interest in making a story mode like WoL or SSE or more content for multiplayer modes instead of trophies...which they did.

While I can agree that Trophies aren't as vital as many might make them out to be, I honestly do hope that Smash can keep up its "video game museum" aspect and continue representing the more obscure parts of their history in some form or other, be it as Trophies, Spirits, or even Stickers. And I say this even though I'd kill to have another Subspace.

In this translation discussion I feel the need to reiterate that SSBU has been translated into more languages than almost every other video game under the Sun. They've even got Russian and Dutch and both Chineses! Not to mention having to do English (and maybe Spanish?) twice for the NTSC/PAL differences. That's actually more than Pokémon if you'll believe it. It adds up my dudes.

Yes, according to the wiki, there are NTSC and PAL versions of English, Spanish, as well as French. I haven't tried it out myself, but apparently, these regional differences are most apparent in Wii Fit Trainer (who gets a different voice for each one).

As an aside, I don't get why Smash Ultimate had an in-game menu for languages (which forces a reset anyway), yet you still have to go into your Switch's settings to get the region-specific languages.

 

[Gengar84]

Well, it looks like the Chrono Cross remake rumors may have just been for a mobile crossover game. I’m still happy they’re at least doing something with the property again but I don’t have much interest in mobile games. Hopefully this increases the chances of getting either a remake of CT or CC or even a new game in the series down the line. I’m still going to be rooting for Magus for Smash regardless.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I know people are bringing up Pokemon having Pokedex entries as proof that trophies could be possible, but it's actually the opposite.

Pokemon stopped having Pokedex entries for every Pokemon years ago. And the reason for it was that it was too much work and cost too much money.

The amount of trophies that there would probably be would be similar to the amount of Pokemon there are currently. If even a JRPG is like, "no that's too much," what makes you think a fighting game would say yes?

 

[Guynamednelson]

I know people are bringing up Pokemon having Pokedex entries as proof that trophies could be possible, but it's actually the opposite.

Pokemon stopped having Pokedex entries for every Pokemon years ago. And the reason for it was that it was too much work and cost too much money.

The amount of trophies that there would probably be would be similar to the amount of Pokemon there are currently. If even a JRPG is like, "no that's too much," what makes you think a fighting game would say yes?

Pokemon also frequently recycles Pokedex entries. Sun & Moon (plus USUM) are some of the only games where every Pokemon that has an entry has a brand-new one.