Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Laniv]

... Considering the movie and that Wrecking Crew is treated as its own universe in Smash Bros, would you consider Foreman Spike to be a retro pick?

 

[smashkirby]

Tbf Rhythm Heaven was successful with enough titles for Smash, it's just the lack of an obvious/feasible character that kept it out of discussion. Once we had the one we'd presumably get, it's not like it didn't make sense. Though you'd never be able to tell that Smash cared about that series from how they've otherwise treated it. Can't even get an AT.

Now things are a little more difficult considering it's not really active anymore. And the fact that whatever kept Chorus Men out... has endured.

But I'd love to see a Rhythm Heaven character, I always like getting more Nintendo IP. Though maybe not as they were intended, if what actually prevented their inclusion was if whatever mechanic they undoubtably had didn't come together in an enjoyable way. Which is one of the theories.

You know, I wonder if Karate Joe or Yuka had ever crossed Sakurai's mind when considering a Rhythm Heaven character. I mean, were the Chorus Kids really that solid of a pick?

I think the two possible exceptions to this (neither of whom would happen in the current state) would be Saki (who has VC... but... eh) and Ray MK. Having said that, I do think Isa and later Ray MK models would be alts. This is purely theoretical ofc, since... well it's S&P and Custom Robo. :/

Oh, I'd LOVE this! Having Saki and Isa Jo pull a Captain Olimar/Alph on us would be a neat way to cover all of the bases regarding Sin & Punishment. Call me crazy, but I don't think S&P would be considered 'relevant enough' to warrant Isa Jo being a separately playable Echo of his dad...

As for Ray, I've legit had that EXACT thought in regards to covering most (if not, ALL) of Custom Robo. Though I'm curious, would the character be referred to as "Ray" across the board, or would each model use their unique model name (Ray, Ray MK II, Ray MK III, etc.)?

Honestly, I think we should start considering SNES and GB characters as retro characters. I want Lip, Sablé Prince, Muddy Mole, maybe even Lark, durnit. >:T

 

[HyperSomari64]

Castlevania's been in a weird place in general because between the animated series, the collections, merch, and stuff like Smash/Rivals of Aether/Dead Cells appearances it clear is/was alive... just not with new actual games (making it the Donkey Kong of Konami in some ways).

Wait, Rivals did a Collab with Castlevania!?
Are you trying to say Brawlhalla, or You just made the weird assumption that "mods made by fans = Officially Licensed stuff" ?

 

[Hadokeyblade]

"Dead"? When Simon was revealed, the Castlevania: Lords of Shadow games were still pretty recent at time. Heck, the first game wasn't even ten years old.

I'm not gonna lie, i had no idea these games existed.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Wait, Rivals did a Collab with Castlevania!?

Ah, error on my part, I meant to say Brawlhalla and have corrected the original post.

Still notable by Konami to put in an outright guest appearance like that for the likes of Simon and Alucard.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Ah, error on my part, I meant to say Brawlhalla and have corrected the original post.

Still notable by Konami to put in an outright guest appearance like that for the likes of Simon and Alucard.

Yeah, that game is like the Fortnite of platform fighters in terms of crossover costumes.

 

[dream1ng]

Honestly the "Simon/Banjo/K. Rool/etc are the retro picks" line of thinking is one I don't like because it feels revisionist, or like moving the goalposts.

From what I can tell, for a long time, for a significant chunk of this fandom, the accepted criteria for "retro picks" was more or less "a first-party character from the NES/Famicom era, preferrably representing their own series, who didn't have much prominence past that era". So that would include stuff like the Ice Climbers, Pit, Duck Hunt and R.O.B.. And sure, most of these weren't actually picked for a retro quota, but they were what was generally considered the "precedent" and thus what set the guidelines for the hypothetical idea of the "retro rep". By this traditional definition of the term, however flawed it may be considering development context, I don't think Ultimate has one. But then you get people who say that K. Rool (a major villain from an already-represented series) was the one, or that Simon (a third-party character from a series that was still very prominent past the NES) was the one, or that Banjo and Kazooie (third-parties from the Nintendo 64 era) were the one. I think I've even seen people say Plant or Terry were the retro reps. And it drives me up the wall because like....don't get me wrong, the original definition was flawed and doesn't really apply to Sakurai's actual selection process anymore, but it at least felt like it meant something, and now it feels like people are using it to describe literally any character that's old.

I agree with you.

There's the "retro pick", which doesn't exist anymore, and therefore isn't any of these characters, and was only ever really Ice Climbers and maybe Pit. ROB and DH would fit this too, even though they weren't.

And then there's retro characters which get in, some of whom people want to ascribe the unofficial spot of token retro pick, presumably mostly for consistency given it used to be a thing. But retro is a variable window that changes from person to person. Like, I don't see Mega Man as a retro character. At least, not at all on par with the aforementioned. Because that series was active and successful well past the NES. But a lot of people here seem to.

For argument's sake, it's fortunate that on practical terms it's moot. It's really just headcanon at this point. The fanbase seems a slave to tradition, though.

I'm in a similar position in that there are a lot of "retro" picks (under the more inclusive definition) I would like to see but not really a lot that is specifically representing the NES era. Out of the "only really successful on the NES" crew I think of Excitebike as kind of the last outstanding pick, and after getting them I'd be basically satisfied with the first-party NES representation.

Though technically Excitebiker shouldn't count... having received a number of games more recently. But no one really seems to care, and if the retro spot was still a thing, I could see Sakurai not caring either, lol. But personally I find that character kinda boring, even with the bike.

It would be great to afford those series stuck in limbo in the middle between Smash's retro and current like Golden Sun, Starfy and Custom Robo a viable route for inclusion. S&P and Panel de Pon as well, I feel they're just a little more hamstrung by their original Japan exclusivity.

Because let's be real, these series (or at least games) are all retro now too by any normal standard, and they are, for the most part, actual multi-game series, which is less common among what remains in the NES pool.

You know, I wonder if Karate Joe or Yuka had ever crossed Sakurai's mind when considering a Rhythm Heaven character. I mean, were the Chorus Kids really that solid of a pick?

I imagine Sakurai did consider multiple RH characters. People suggest Karate Joe or the Wrestler because obviously they're fighting-oriented, but, all else being equal in terms of in-series stature, I'm actually much more interested in a character like Chorus Kids who aren't immediately obvious combatants. They're also, from a design perspective, much more unique than another fairly human-like, if cartoony character.

As for Ray, I've legit had that EXACT thought in regards to covering most (if not, ALL) of Custom Robo. Though I'm curious, would the character be referred to as "Ray" across the board, or would each model use their unique model name (Ray, Ray MK II, Ray MK III, etc.)?

While Sakurai is quite thorough, I think due to how similar the names are, just calling them all "Ray" may be what they'd go for. Especially if the original isn't the default one. But it could go either way.

Wait, Rivals did a Collab with Castlevania!?

It's starting to hit home how easy it likely was to land these characters in Smash and why they may have been the ones to end up in base.

 

[SPEN18]

would the character be referred to as "Ray" across the board, or would each model use their unique model name (Ray, Ray MK II, Ray MK III, etc.)?

Idk, but in the Smash representation they've had so far they use the Mk II/III naming.

 

[Geno Boost]

... Considering the movie and that Wrecking Crew is treated as its own universe in Smash Bros, would you consider Foreman Spike to be a retro pick?

I see him more as a part Mario rep but with similar treatment to Wario and Yoshi and DK

 

[SPEN18]

It would be great to afford those series stuck in limbo in the middle between Smash's retro and current like Golden Sun, Starfy and Custom Robo a viable route for inclusion.

In addition to the characters from unrepped series, there are also several characters from existing series that to varying extents fall into this "limbo." Skull Kid, Krystal, Lyn, etc.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Yeah but it doesn't really matter what she is, it matters how she looks
A very empowering message

She doesn't actually... have to have sex in the game. 98% of her attacks aren't even sexual, and if they cover up the cleavage a bit and maybe omit the more suggestive poses, I don't see why she couldn't work. She's been in E and E10 games before.

It would be less of a shift than Bayo got.

Yeah, but Morrigan's whole personality is making sexual innuendos when she talks, and there's no way they would omit that if they're going to stay true to the character.

100%, moveset wise, she could easily work within the confines of Smash. It's her personality that's the problem.

 

[Ivander]

Yeah, but Morrigan's whole personality is making sexual innuendos when she talks, and there's no way they would omit that if they're going to stay true to the character.

Until she loses to somebody in video games, than she brings out the gamer girl in her.

 

[Gengar84]

Yeah, but Morrigan's whole personality is making sexual innuendos when she talks, and there's no way they would omit that if they're going to stay true to the character.

100%, moveset wise, she could easily work within the confines of Smash. It's her personality that's the problem.

Doesn’t Bayonetta do that too? She was able to toned down for Smash so they might be able to do something similar for Morrigan.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Doesn’t Bayonetta do that too? She was able to tone down for Smash so they might be able to do something similar for Morrigan.

Bayonetta has more character than that. Yes, she does make innuendos, but they're not all she's got. She's smart, confident, she doesn't take **** from bad guys, and she has a motherly side. She's also been through a lot of trauma, and has a very strong sense of justice, even if she's mostly doing stuff for her own self-benefit. She also cares deeply for the fate of humanity too.

I should know, I've played every game in her series.

 

[dream1ng]

Yeah, but Morrigan's whole personality is making sexual innuendos when she talks, and there's no way they would omit that if they're going to stay true to the character.

100%, moveset wise, she could easily work within the confines of Smash. It's her personality that's the problem.

It's Smash, it's not an RPG. If a character says three sentences in the whole game, that's a lot of talking. Go to a list a Morrigan's lines, I guarantee you will be able to find enough for the cumulative like twenty words the more verbal characters in Smash tend to say.

This is a non-problem. They literally censored Bayonetta's "catchphrase", and she straight up drops f-bombs.
Also by nature of what innuendo is, they'll be able to get away with some of it, if they want. You ever see a Pixar movie?
I mean one of Bayo's lines is "don't make me beg".

Ah, error on my part, I meant to say Brawlhalla and have corrected the original post.

Still notable by Konami to put in an outright guest appearance like that for the likes of Simon and Alucard.

Tbf it's impressive some of the characters that game has managed to land. I mean they are just skins, but still.

I know Brawlhalla is on Xbox, but it really does seem like the only thing Smash needs to do to get Master Chief is ask. For being such a huge character, it doesn't seem like licensing him is that burdensome or expensive.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

It's Smash, it's not an RPG. If a character says three sentences in the whole game, that's a lot of talking. Go to a list a Morrigan's lines, I guarantee you will be able to find enough for the cumulative like twenty words the more verbal characters in Smash tend to say.

This is a non-problem. They literally censored Bayonetta's "catchphrase", and she straight up drops f-bombs.
Also by nature of what innuendo is, they'll be able to get away with some of it, if they want. You ever see a Pixar movie?
I mean one of Bayo's lines is "don't make me beg".


Tbf it's impressive some of the characters that game has managed to land. I mean they are just skins, but still.

I know Brawlhalla is on Xbox, but it really does seem like the only thing Smash needs to do to get Master Chief is ask. For being such a huge character, it doesn't seem like licensing him is that burdensome or expensive.

Dude, there are plenty of characters that speak full sentences. You're also forgetting she'd need a trailer that sells her as a character, and now you have much less of a leg to stand on with that argument.

I don't know where you go off thinking Bayonetta has a catchphrase, she doesn't. And... yeah, so what if she drops F-bombs when she has plenty of other quotes and lines they can reference that don't involve sexual innuendo.

 

[Wonder Smash]

... Considering the movie and that Wrecking Crew is treated as its own universe in Smash Bros, would you consider Foreman Spike to be a retro pick?

He would but since Wrecking Crew still part of the Mario universe, I'm not sure if he'd have the same impact that other retro picks like Duck Hunt and Ice Climber had. It would be interesting to see how he would work, though.

 

[Opossum]

Dude, there are plenty of characters that speak full sentences. You're also forgetting she'd need a trailer that sells her as a character, and now you have much less of a leg to stand on with that argument.

I don't know where you go off thinking Bayonetta has a catchphrase, she doesn't. And... yeah, so what if she drops F-bombs when she has plenty of other quotes and lines they can reference that don't involve sexual innuendo.

"Don't mess with a witch" is literally a G rated version of one of the more iconic one liners from her original game.

And the original line didn't say "mess."

 

[Capybara Gaming]

"Don't mess with a witch" is literally a G rated version of one of the more iconic one liners from her original game.

And the original line didn't say "mess."

I'm aware, I've played the game many times.

But that's far from a catchphrase. She said it one time.

 

[Opossum]

I'm aware, I've played the game many times.

But that's far from a catchphrase. She said it one time.

You're getting too hung up on them using the word "catch phrase" while ignoring the fact that they specifically referenced a line of dialogue with the word **** in it. They can make a Morrigan trailer just fine.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm aware, I've played the game many times.

But that's far from a catchphrase. She said it one time.

I think you're not seeing the forest through the trees.

Point is, Morrigan can just, not say the innuendo lines. She has more depth than just sex, lol.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

"In order to make her less sexy we have chosen to remove her scottish accent, please understand."

 

[Swamp Sensei]

"In order to make her less sexy we have chosen to remove her scottish accent, please understand."

On second thought, it's not worth it.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

You're getting too hung up on them using the word "catch phrase" while ignoring the fact that they specifically referenced a line of dialogue with the word **** in it. They can make a Morrigan trailer just fine.

And you're missing the fact that every word out of Morrigan's mouth is a sexual innuendo. Have you played a game with her in it?

One of her moves is literally called "Sexual Embrace." Another is "Finishing Shower."

Not being a relentless perv is literally against her characterization.

I think you're not seeing the forest through the trees.

Point is, Morrigan can just, not say the innuendo lines. She has more depth than just sex, lol.

She really doesn't but ok

I don't even care about her getting in or not, all I'm saying is you really don't understand her if you're arguing you can take the vixen out of her

She's also LITERALLY a succubus, a creature who drains the life from victims through sex

 

[Swamp Sensei]

And you're missing the fact that every word out of Morrigan's mouth is a sexual innuendo. Have you played a game with her in it?

One of her moves is literally called "Sexual Embrace." Another is "Finishing Shower."

Not being a relentless perv is literally against her characterization.



She really doesn't but ok

I don't even care about her getting in or not, all I'm saying is you really don't understand her if you're arguing you can take the vixen out of her

Morrigan is a demon princess who travels the world for fun and hates the idea of being a ruler. Yeah a lot of that fun is sexual, but she's a thrill junkie. She loves fighting. She also loves a lot of the nonsexual pleasures of the human world. It's all fun and exciting to her. She's has depth.

There's also the fact that she's usually on the good guy side in crossovers despite being a demon. She loves the human world as is and wants to keep the status quo.

All that aside, you can totally have a G rated vixen. There is a lot of children's media with voluptuous ladies or sexual comments here and there.

Nobody is arguing that Morrigan should become chaste. We're just saying that her sexual nature can be toned down to acceptable levels.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

... Considering the movie and that Wrecking Crew is treated as its own universe in Smash Bros, would you consider Foreman Spike to be a retro pick?

Or make a reboot starring Waluigi and his crew of 2 or 3 demolitionists. Spike is their boss.

 

[dream1ng]

Dude, there are plenty of characters that speak full sentences. You're also forgetting she'd need a trailer that sells her as a character, and now you have much less of a leg to stand on with that argument.

Alright, lemme do it for you:
Win quote options:
"My victories, like my beauty are eternal!"
"I feel quite satisfied now. Thank you."
"Sweet dreams, cutie."
"I shouldn't have gone so easy on you!"
"Don't exert yourself next time."
"Stay down, it's easier that way."
"I thought you'd entertain me at least a little... I see I overestimated you!"
"Done already? Where's your stamina?"
"It's so dull to simply defeat someone."
"I didn't have the heart to destroy you..."
"You're so cute. I love how you get all worked up."

Taunt quote options:
"Can you handle what comes next?"
"My beauty can overcome brains and brawn."
"You are so boring!"
"Shall we go?"
"You're too weak for me"
"Ah honey. Is that all you got?"

Attack quote options:
"Relax, this'll just sting a little."
"Close your eyes! Like, forever!"
"Now, you shall feel my wrath!"

Trailer quote options:
"I find this place is full of fantasies. Everything looks so attractive!"
"You know, perhaps I shall live here for awhile."

There's more than enough to choose from. All official quotes, all in character. All of these would fly in an E10 game. The idea she'd have nothing she'd be able to say is ridiculous.

And btw most characters do not spend the whole trailer talking, nor is that an obligation. I have no idea what sort of salacious behavior you envision that she's going to get up to in her Smash trailer, but if it's truly a problem... don't forget like half the trailers barely actually have the character in CG. It builds up with other characters, then the newcomer bursts in to save the day or something - they say some line, they get the splash screen, and it's right off into gameplay, maybe a brief cut back to the CG, more gameplay, then a stinger at the end. They don't all need to be a scene outta Advent Children.

I don't know where you go off thinking Bayonetta has a catchphrase, she doesn't.

Right, it's just a notable line that Smash decided to censor instead of omit in her trailer.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I feel like this conversation is going to jinx us and the smash devs are going to go "Dont question us again" and put her in the next game

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I feel like this conversation is going to jinx us and the smash devs are going to go "Dont question us again" and put her in the next game

And no objections would be made, lol.

Morrigan isn't a huge character but she is important to fighting game history.

 

[dream1ng]

I feel like this conversation is going to jinx us and the smash devs are going to go "Dont question us again" and put her in the next game

I am unbothered by that.

Plus, if anyone has a chance of bringing Marvel vs. Capcom music...

 

[DarthEnderX]

I tend to discern the era specifically so 80s Retro, 90s retro etc... But as it's really a term to describe aesthetic it's good either way.

To me "retro" will always anything before 3D consoles. But that's me personally. Everyone is different.

"We don't get a reserved retro character slot anymore."

Yeah and that ****ing sucks because we should. That's the point.

Nah. The retro picks make up most of the worst picks on Smash's roster.

From what I can tell, for a long time, for a significant chunk of this fandom, the accepted criteria for "retro picks" was more or less "a first-party character from the NES/Famicom era, preferrably representing their own series, who didn't have much prominence past that era".

This. The Smash definition boils down to: "Old-ass character that never spawned a franchise".

 

[osby]

Smash interpreting characters differently than their origin is game for various reasons is not all that uncommon. Mario takes fighting more seriously, Shulk's more of a joker, Peach is more playful etc.

Morrigan's voicelines focusing on her love for fun and fighting wouldn't be a stretch in comparison.

I don't see why we have to pit her and Bayonetta against each other. If anything, I think the latter's inclusion supports Morrigan's chances.

(On this note, it's tiring how often these type of arguments turn into "female characters with horny designs can't possibly have any substance beyond their sex appeal")

 

[DarthEnderX]

So if Ultimate gets the Deluxe treatment with all DLC included with new content, how many new fighters will there be, including new echo fighters?

I think if we get a Deluxe, they'll follow the MK8D model.

Base game = No newcomers(besides maybe new Echoes).
DLC = At least 2 Fighters Passes

 

[Laniv]

I feel like this conversation is going to jinx us and the smash devs are going to go "Dont question us again" and put her in the next game

So we all agree she's going to flirt with Luigi in the trailer, right?

 

[DarthEnderX]

Yeah, but Morrigan's whole personality is making sexual innuendos when she talks, and there's no way they would omit that if they're going to stay true to the character.

100%, moveset wise, she could easily work within the confines of Smash. It's her personality that's the problem.

Again, Bayonetta. Suggestive dialog isn't an issue in a game where characters don't talk to each other.

So we all agree she's going to flirt with Luigi in the trailer, right?

Wolf.

 

[dream1ng]

So we all agree she's going to flirt with Luigi in the trailer, right?

That's the funny option.

The boring option is a fighter-based trailer with the Ryus/Terrys/Kazuyas

The cinematic option is a fight-off in the sky with Bayonetta and Palutena.

The thematically fitting option is to pair your Darkstalkers character with the Castlevania characters

And the correct option is an innuendo-off with ol Mr. Show Me Your Moves

 

[Ivander]

That's the funny option.

The boring option is a fighter-based trailer with the Ryus/Terrys/Kazuyas

The cinematic option is a fight-off in the sky with Bayonetta and Palutena.

The thematically fitting option is to pair your Darkstalkers character with the Castlevania characters

And the correct option is an innuendo-off with ol Mr. Show Me Your Moves

The actual option would be to fight Ganondorf, Wolf, Greninja, R.O.B, Byleth, Dark Samus, a Zombie and White DK.

 

[dream1ng]

The actual option would be to fight Ganondorf, Wolf, Greninja, R.O.B, Byleth, Dark Samus, a Zombie and White DK.

That's classic mode

 

[Sucumbio]

I'm just thinking how adorable Kirby will look after inhaling Morrigan. I now not only fully support her inclusion, but wish it to be so. Morrigan for Smash let's gooooo!

 

[jamesster445]

So if Ultimate gets the Deluxe treatment with all DLC included with new content, how many new fighters will there be, including new echo fighters?

My ideal number is 11. Doesn't really matter to me if they're all echoes or all originals.
11 + the 89 fighters (according to the final roundup in Sakurai presents Sora) already in Smash = 100 fighters.

... Considering the movie and that Wrecking Crew is treated as its own universe in Smash Bros, would you consider Foreman Spike to be a retro pick?

YES.