Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[dream1ng]

Y’all remember when people legitimately had no idea if Yoshi was gonna be in Smash 4 and were worried pic.twitter.com/fwZwHecSht

— No Context Super Mario (@SuperMarioOOC85) August 2, 2023

Man, this was such a weird time.

People didn't know why he was taking so long but being legitimately worried he wasn't going to be in the game wasn't really a thing.

My guess is they in some way wanted to tie Yoshi's reveal to Woolly World but the game kept getting pushed back so that plan fell through.

I actually spoke about this in response to a tweet below regarding the ESRB leak, but speaking of Smash 4? I absolutely HATED (and will NEVER forgive) how that leak pretty much revealed nearly EVERYTHING that Smash 4 had to offer us.

Heck, I think the ONLY (playable) character who WASN'T leaked by the end of all of this was Alph, of all people. Like, even the Koopalings were implied to have some sort of major role, with the leaking of Larry Koopa's trophy.

Tbf I think the only character they still had to reveal pre-release that the leak preempted was Shulk. The rest would've leaked a few days before release anyway - this just moved that up by a couple weeks or so iirc.

 

[Arcanir]

I actually spoke about this in response to a tweet below regarding the ESRB leak, but speaking of Smash 4? I absolutely HATED (and will NEVER forgive) how that leak pretty much revealed nearly EVERYTHING that Smash 4 had to offer us.

Heck, I think the ONLY (playable) character who WASN'T leaked by the end of all of this was Alph, of all people. Like, even the Koopalings were implied to have some sort of major role, with the leaking of Larry Koopa's trophy.

It was Rosalina and kind of Robin/Lucina. Rosalina was the only pre-release character who wasn't leaked out by the two parts of the Gematsu leak as she came out between them. Robin/Lucina are an odd case as they weren't on the Gematsu leak as it was Chrom so many were taken by surprise when they were revealed, however they were in another leak (IIRC, the Ninka/Vaanrose leak) and their confirmation caused us to follow that one which gave us the remaining newcomers (though to be fair, as said before they weren't revealed pre-release).

Special mention to Greninja, Chrom and the Chorus Kids though. Greninja was 'Pokemon from XY' in the leak so he wasn't outright named while Chrom and the Chorus Kids weren't playable but either have data or official statements indicating their initial inclusions before getting cut.

 

[dream1ng]

It was Rosalina and kind of Robin/Lucina. Rosalina was the only pre-release character who wasn't leaked out by the two parts of the Gematsu leak as she came out between them. Robin/Lucina are an odd case as they weren't on the Gematsu leak as it was Chrom so many were taken by surprise when they were revealed, however they were in another leak (IIRC, the Ninka/Vaanrose leak) and their confirmation caused us to follow that one which gave us the remaining newcomers (though to be fair, as said before they weren't revealed pre-release).

Special mention to Greninja, Chrom and the Chorus Kids though. Greninja was 'Pokemon from XY' in the leak so he wasn't outright named while Chrom and the Chorus Kids weren't playable but either have data or official statements indicating their initial inclusions before getting cut.

Still better than Ultimate's base, where I think Richter was the only non-leaked character, including all the vets. Oh, and I guess technically Inkling.

FP2 was really the only chunk that didn't leak more than it did.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I think with Smash's retro picks, people miss that almost none of them are real, established characters in the traditional sense and that seems one of the main characteristics that inform their depiction in Smash games.

That's why I don't consider Mega Man or Simon retro picks in the same sense that Duck Hunt or Ice Climbers and that's why it's meaningless to act like any character can get into that category by just being "old enough". Bowser Jr. and Dark Samus originated in GameCube but it's obvious that their inclusion had more to do with their individual traits than which gaming era they represented.

Yeah, Mega Man and Simon continued to make appearances beyond the decade they appeared in, making less "retro" and just "old school" and that's something you even place Snake in too. Duck Hunt and Ice Climbers are truly retro picks.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Still better than Ultimate's base, where I think Richter was the only non-leaked character, including all the vets. Oh, and I guess technically Inkling.

FP2 was really the only chunk that didn't leak more than it did.

I thought Richter got leaked too.

I remember because he was like a Wii Fit Trainer level prediction.

 

[SPEN18]

Ah, more retro discussion again.

Quotas, schmotas, I say.

Regardless of the logistics of paring down the options, the big thing for me is for characters of all eras to be given fair consideration. Give everyone an equal shake.
I believe this to be possible while both pleasing the fans and keeping in line with Nintendo's marketing goals for its various series.

 

[jamesster445]

I was just curious if we could get some kind of consensus on how important it is for everyone for Smash character’s moveset to be faithful to their source material. I think there is merit to both sides. My personal view is that I’d prefer them to try to remain as faithful as possible to a character’s source game in moves and mechanics as long as it still results in a moveset that’s fun to play and at least somewhat balanced. It’s totally fine to me if some mechanics have to be simplified to work in Smash but I’d always like to see at least some reference to them. Others might not care so much as long as the moveset is fun and at least captures the general feel of the character without worrying about pulling specific moves from their games. There’s no right or wrong answer here since it all comes down to your personal preference but I’m curious where everyone stands on this.

I care more about the feeling or vibe of a character and if anything the references should enhance that feeling rather than define it. Mario is always a contentious character with this fandom because a lot of his moveset is made up, but I would argue that for who Mario is (a tutorial/basic character who doesn't do any one thing exceptional) Mario's moveset is almost perfect for the game that Smash is. This goes double for a character like C Falcon who had their entire moveset made up and yet captures the vibe of F Zero. Where as Ryu is as 1-1 of a translation to Smash and doesn't feel quite as good to play as most characters. And in a roundabout way, In terms of Smash fighters Mario is a better "Ryu" than Ryu as the all rounder.

Obviously its a case by case basis.

 

[dream1ng]

I thought Richter got leaked too.

I remember because he was like a Wii Fit Trainer level prediction.

His presence on a clearly fake leak that had Gothitelle was the only reason that thing wouldn't die, but that one was obv a lucky guess.

I don't remember him actually being in an accurate leak, but I may be overlooking something.

 

[TheLamerGamer]

I know I'm slightly late to this, but there are a lot of JRPG characters who could theoretically make it into smash who haven't had an official release worldwide. The biggest one to me is Aleph, who is the protagonist of SMT II, and could be included in a hero style character with the SMT 1, 2, IV and IVA protagonists, who all use a sword and a gun (although only the latter 2 use magic). The SMT 1 protagonist almost counts, but that game had an iPhone port years ago that released in english. (The if... protagonists would also work, but they're even less likely to be included).

 

[DarthEnderX]

I think with Smash's retro picks, people miss that almost none of them are real, established characters in the traditional sense and that seems one of the main characteristics that inform their depiction in Smash games.

That's why I asked for clarification if by "retro character" they meant "NES D-lister". Because that's what all the characters the Smash community considers the "Retro" picks, are.

People didn't know why he was taking so long but being legitimately worried he wasn't going to be in the game wasn't really a thing.

That makes it funnier that in the "Everyone is Here!" trailer, they didn't show him till after the trailer ended.

Yeah, Mega Man and Simon continued to make appearances beyond the decade they appeared in, making less "retro" and just "old school" and that's something you even place Snake in too. Duck Hunt and Ice Climbers are truly retro picks.

Ice Climbers, G&W, ROB, Pit(at the time of his addition), and Duck Hunt.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

It was Rosalina and kind of Robin/Lucina. Rosalina was the only pre-release character who wasn't leaked out by the two parts of the Gematsu leak as she came out between them. Robin/Lucina are an odd case as they weren't on the Gematsu leak as it was Chrom so many were taken by surprise when they were revealed, however they were in another leak (IIRC, the Ninka/Vaanrose leak) and their confirmation caused us to follow that one which gave us the remaining newcomers (though to be fair, as said before they weren't revealed pre-release).

Special mention to Greninja, Chrom and the Chorus Kids though. Greninja was 'Pokemon from XY' in the leak so he wasn't outright named while Chrom and the Chorus Kids weren't playable but either have data or official statements indicating their initial inclusions before getting cut.

I find it pretty interesting that Rythm heaven was seen as important enough to have a character in development for Smash. Sure we never got the Chorus kids but the fact that they were gonna be in is interesting to me.

I thought Richter got leaked too.

I remember because he was like a Wii Fit Trainer level prediction.

Castlevania as a franchise was leaked for Smash, we didnt know which of the protagonists was getting in, though logically it would have been Simon.

I know I'm slightly late to this, but there are a lot of JRPG characters who could theoretically make it into smash who haven't had an official release worldwide. The biggest one to me is Aleph, who is the protagonist of SMT II, and could be included in a hero style character with the SMT 1, 2, IV and IVA protagonists, who all use a sword and a gun (although only the latter 2 use magic). The SMT 1 protagonist almost counts, but that game had an iPhone port years ago that released in english. (The if... protagonists would also work, but they're even less likely to be included).

I assume any franchise that started as Japan only but got worldwide releases later would have a character picked for Smash who's game you can play in English instead of a Japan only character.

 

[Gengar84]

That's why I asked for clarification if by "retro character" they meant "NES D-lister". Because that's what all the characters the Smash community considers the "Retro" picks, are.

That makes it funnier that in the "Everyone is Here!" trailer, they didn't show him till after the trailer ended.

Ice Climbers, G&W, ROB, Pit(at the time of his addition), and Duck Hunt.

My definition is a bit different than others. To me, retro just means the character debuted on the SNES or earlier, was most popular in that era and doesn’t have regular yearly appearances. Someone like Bill Rizer is retro to me but I wouldn’t consider Bowser as retro despite both originating during the NES eras. Even if the series gets an occasional game here and there like Contra, I’d still consider it retro. Same goes for other series like Killer Instinct, Battletoads, CastleVania, and Mega Man.

 

[Sucumbio]

My definition is a bit different than others. To me, retro just means the character debuted on the SNES or earlier, was most popular in that era and doesn’t have regular yearly appearances. Someone like Bill Rizer is retro to me but I wouldn’t consider Bowser as retro despite both originating during the NES eras. Even if the series gets an occasional game here and there like Contra, I’d still consider it retro. Same goes for other series like Killer Instinct, Battletoads, CastleVania, and Mega Man.

I tend to discern the era specifically so 80s Retro, 90s retro etc... But as it's really a term to describe aesthetic it's good either way.

 

[dream1ng]

I know I'm slightly late to this, but there are a lot of JRPG characters who could theoretically make it into smash who haven't had an official release worldwide. The biggest one to me is Aleph, who is the protagonist of SMT II, and could be included in a hero style character with the SMT 1, 2, IV and IVA protagonists, who all use a sword and a gun (although only the latter 2 use magic). The SMT 1 protagonist almost counts, but that game had an iPhone port years ago that released in english. (The if... protagonists would also work, but they're even less likely to be included).

Theoretically yes, but practically the highest aspiration for them would probably be an alt, if it worked for that character. Aside from the no regional exclusive thing, there really aren't any Japan-only characters who somehow managed to get big enough overseas to make sense as an addition.

Like, with SMT... it's either gonna be Nahobino, Demi-Fiend, a future protag, or maybe Jack Frost (but probably not) if he would even count.

That's why I asked for clarification if by "retro character" they meant "NES D-lister". Because that's what all the characters the Smash community considers the "Retro" picks, are.

To be fair, we just go by Smash's rules. I'm sure people would love to update the parameters, include more characters.

In general, retro at this point is like... the sixth or seventh gen.

That makes it funnier that in the "Everyone is Here!" trailer, they didn't show him till after the trailer ended.

Every time I watch that trailer I forget Yoshi and Luigi haven't been shown until the last second. I just assume they were part of it, lol. I mean it's Yoshi and Luigi - even if the game shipped without them, I still would believe they were in there somewhere. Hiding behind 20 Cruel Smash KOs or something.

Ice Climbers, G&W, ROB, Pit(at the time of his addition), and Duck Hunt.

All these characters fit as "retro" by the Smash standard (I don't think Mr. G&W showed up in any of the pre-Melee G&W Gallery games for GB, but I'm not 100% - I never played those games), but tbf, G&W, ROB and DH got in as the surprise picks like PP, which isn't necessarily a retro spot. But I guess notable but unorthodox retro characters are well-suited for it.

I find it pretty interesting that Rythm heaven was seen as important enough to have a character in development for Smash. Sure we never got the Chorus kids but the fact that they were gonna be in is interesting to me.

Tbf Rhythm Heaven was successful with enough titles for Smash, it's just the lack of an obvious/feasible character that kept it out of discussion. Once we had the one we'd presumably get, it's not like it didn't make sense. Though you'd never be able to tell that Smash cared about that series from how they've otherwise treated it. Can't even get an AT.

Now things are a little more difficult considering it's not really active anymore. And the fact that whatever kept Chorus Men out... has endured.

But I'd love to see a Rhythm Heaven character, I always like getting more Nintendo IP. Though maybe not as they were intended, if what actually prevented their inclusion was if whatever mechanic they undoubtably had didn't come together in an enjoyable way. Which is one of the theories.

Castlevania as a franchise was leaked for Smash, we didnt know which of the protagonists was getting in, though logically it would have been Simon.

From the audio leak we didn't, but Simon had already been leaked by Vergeben, who at that point was quite reliable.

I assume any franchise that started as Japan only but got worldwide releases later would have a character picked for Smash who's game you can play in English instead of a Japan only character.

I think the two possible exceptions to this (neither of whom would happen in the current state) would be Saki (who has VC... but... eh) and Ray MK. Having said that, I do think Isa and later Ray MK models would be alts. This is purely theoretical ofc, since... well it's S&P and Custom Robo. :/

 

[Laniv]

Honestly, I think we should start considering SNES and GB characters as retro characters. I want Lip, Sablé Prince, Muddy Mole, maybe even Lark, durnit. >:T

 

[dream1ng]

My definition is a bit different than others. To me, retro just means the character debuted on the SNES or earlier, was most popular in that era and doesn’t have regular yearly appearances. Someone like Bill Rizer is retro to me but I wouldn’t consider Bowser as retro despite both originating during the NES eras. Even if the series gets an occasional game here and there like Contra, I’d still consider it retro. Same goes for other series like Killer Instinct, Battletoads, CastleVania, and Mega Man.

Yeah, it's a good point because a while ago when getting into it about Mega Man and others being "retro"... a lot of those arguments could've cast characters like Mario, Link, Samus, as retro - and I think there's a difference between being retro and having existed in that period but carried on past that.

And I think most of those examples did carry past it. They might have had a big impact earlier... but... they were certainly still notable afterwards. Like, Mega Man was getting game after game until basically the eighth gen. I think the last dozen or so years have made him seem more distant than he was. But we also can't set aside Capcom using him as their mascot for such a long time carried his association through the gens.

It's similar with Castlevania. Fair enough with Simon specifically, but Castlevania itself was still doing well for generations after the early days. Symphony of the Night is a hall of famer, the GBA games did well and were received well, and one of those Lords of Shadow is the best selling game in the series.

I also think KI is questionable. It had a pretty successful reboot, and the series is small enough (volume-wise) that even one successful game is pretty meaningful. Fair enough with Battletoads and Contra. Not that they haven't continued, but... their presence after the sprite age was never too palpable.

I guess I would look at it less as whether they were most popular then, but if they were still fairly popular after that period as well. But to each their own.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Ice Climbers, G&W, ROB, Pit(at the time of his addition), and Duck Hunt.

Yeah, those are retro picks too (or at least Pit was at first).

 

[dream1ng]

Honestly, I think we should start considering SNES and GB characters as retro characters. I want Lip, Sablé Prince, Muddy Mole, maybe even Lark, durnit. >:T

Well our opinions don't really matter, we have to go by Smash's parameters. I'd love to bump up the partition even further, let everyone from like... the GBA and earlier be retro at this point. Those games are 20 years old, that's older than the NES was from the Gamecube when we got the ICs.

But the thing is we don't get retro characters added because they're retro characters anymore anyway. And we haven't since at least Brawl, possibly Melee.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

So if Ultimate gets the Deluxe treatment with all DLC included with new content, how many new fighters will there be, including new echo fighters?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

In some ways the retro scene gets slightly interesting after NES/early SNES period, largely because that era was the last major one with more one shot first party franchises. There are exceptions from ones in the last 30 years, but on the average ones introduced in the later 16 bit era and after tended to get a couple of games.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

The GBA is a retro console so the next retro rep is Isaac.

 

[Perkilator]

So if Ultimate gets the Deluxe treatment with all DLC included with new content, how many new fighters will there be, including new echo fighters?

I’d like to say 8 unique fighters and 3 Echoes, rounding the total roster to about 100 fighters exactly (not counting characters like Alph or the Koopalings)

 

[Laniv]

The GBA is a retro console so the next retro rep is Isaac.

This is how Starfy finally gets in

 

[HyperSomari64]

Can DS and Wii be considered "Retro" these days?

 

[dream1ng]

I’d like to say 8 unique fighters and 3 Echoes, rounding the total roster to about 100 fighters exactly (not counting characters like Alph or the Koopalings)

Ok but nothing past Alear and two new Marths from FE. Anything more would just be excessive. We need to leave room for a starter no one wants and the long-awaited Zelda newcomer: an octorok.

Can DS and Wii be considered "Retro" these days?

Retro is sorta subjective, but going back the sixteen years Melee did for its retro character would now take you to the Wii/DS age. So yeah, I suppose.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Retro is sorta subjective, but going back the sixteen years Melee did for its retro character would now take you to the Wii/DS age. So yeah, I suppose.

LOL, then I choose the Pandora's Tower guy as the next Smash's "retro" pick.

 

[dream1ng]

LOL, then I choose the Pandora's Tower guy as the next Smash's "retro" pick.

You're pushing it choosing literally one of the last possible titles from that system but given that none of this really matters and I have no actual authority I will allow it.

 

[fogbadge]

Can DS and Wii be considered "Retro" these days?

it’s like you’re deliberately trying to kill those of us from before the turn of the century

 

[Opossum]

"We don't get a reserved retro character slot anymore."

Yeah and that ****ing sucks because we should. That's the point.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Honestly, I think we should start considering SNES and GB characters as retro characters. I want Lip, Sablé Prince, Muddy Mole, maybe even Lark, durnit. >:T

Oh yeah, definitely, especially GB characters. I wouldn't mind characters like Sablé Prince or Muddy Mole.

2D retro characters have a lot of nostalgic charm to them, as shown with the NES retro characters like Ice Climbers and Duck Hunt, so it'd be cool to see something like that with GB characters too. A lot of those old school, retro features from those games that they're from. I love when characters bring those to Smash.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

I’d like to say 8 unique fighters and 3 Echoes, rounding the total roster to about 100 fighters exactly (not counting characters like Alph or the Koopalings)

Ok. I'll list them here
New fighters:
One of the 3 members of Off the Hook; Shiver, Frye, or Big Man
Raven Beak
a Pokemon from Gen 8 or 9
Noah
Glee Club
Ayumi Tachibana
Crash Bandicoot
Geno

New echoes:
Octoling (echo of Inkling)
Mio (echo of Noah)
Metal Sonic (echo of Sonic)

 

[dream1ng]

"We don't get a reserved retro character slot anymore."

Yeah and that ****ing sucks because we should. That's the point.

Ehhhh

If it expanded to all the things that were actually retro now, yeah.

If it means we're going to get another NES character, but an NES character marked by the fact that they really didn't have much impact past the NES... I think I'd rather take my chances with who else would get the spot.

And keep in mind Takamaru, Sukapon and Mike Jones would all likely be excluded by their exclusivity. I know Takamaru isn't exclusive anymore, but I don't think any of his appearances would be sufficiently notable to the global audience to Sakurai to remedy his status. And Ayumi has been revived.

But I'll say this much. If, in theory, including like... Mach Rider actually helped resuscitate the series like KI, I could get behind it. But that's a hypothetical on top of a hypothetical. On top of a hypothetical.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I know nobody in the fanbase or the dev team consider it but i consider Simon the retro rep for Ultimate.

Just because by the time he joined smash his series had been dead for years.

 

[TheLamerGamer]

Arguably banjo & kazooie were ultimate's retro reps. They haven't had a mainline game since the N64, or anything in general since the Xbox 360, 11 years before they were added to Smash (and 15 years now). You could also say K Rool, but being part of a more active series makes him significantly more relevant, even if he doesn't actually appear in more recent games.

To put that into perspective, since the last new banjo-kazooie game released, I went through all of primary school, all of high-school, began university, and got a job. Obviously it was slightly less than that back in 2019, but my point still stands.

 

[SPEN18]

Can DS and Wii be considered "Retro" these days?

Honestly with the "casual gamer" boom and all, this era is actually pretty deep in highly unique first party franchises if they wanted to get really funky with a pick. There's like Brain Age, Big Brain Academy, Nintendogs, Style Savvy (RIP), Art Academy, Rhythm Heaven (for the West) all originating here. These all actually got games at least as recently as the 3DS/WiiU era but IMO they're all fairly heavily associated with the DS/Wii era. And of course we already have Wii Fit coming from this sort of vein but they could easily go back to the well if they wanted.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I know nobody in the fanbase or the dev team consider it but i consider Simon the retro rep for Ultimate.

Just because by the time he joined smash his series had been dead for years.

"Dead"? When Simon was revealed, the Castlevania: Lords of Shadow games were still pretty recent at that time. Heck, the first game wasn't even ten years old.

 

[dream1ng]

I know nobody in the fanbase or the dev team consider it but i consider Simon the retro rep for Ultimate.

Just because by the time he joined smash his series had been dead for years.

Had a game more recently than Banjo.

Edit: Yeah. The post three above mine that I should've read first, lol.

 

[Speed Weed]

Honestly the "Simon/Banjo/K. Rool/etc are the retro picks" line of thinking is one I don't like because it feels revisionist, or like moving the goalposts.

From what I can tell, for a long time, for a significant chunk of this fandom, the accepted criteria for "retro picks" was more or less "a first-party character from the NES/Famicom era, preferrably representing their own series, who didn't have much prominence past that era". So that would include stuff like the Ice Climbers, Pit, Duck Hunt and R.O.B.. And sure, most of these weren't actually picked for a retro quota, but they were what was generally considered the "precedent" and thus what set the guidelines for the hypothetical idea of the "retro rep". By this traditional definition of the term, however flawed it may be considering development context, I don't think Ultimate has one. But then you get people who say that K. Rool (a major villain from an already-represented series) was the one, or that Simon (a third-party character from a series that was still very prominent past the NES) was the one, or that Banjo and Kazooie (third-parties from the Nintendo 64 era) were the one. I think I've even seen people say Plant or Terry were the retro reps. And it drives me up the wall because like....don't get me wrong, the original definition was flawed and doesn't really apply to Sakurai's actual selection process anymore, but it at least felt like it meant something, and now it feels like people are using it to describe literally any character that's old.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Castlevania's been in a weird place in general because between the animated series, the collections, merch, and stuff like Smash/Brawlhalla/Dead Cells appearances it clear is/was alive... just not with new actual games (making it the Donkey Kong of Konami in some ways).

 

[SPEN18]

Ehhhh

If it expanded to all the things that were actually retro now, yeah.

If it means we're going to get another NES character, but an NES character marked by the fact that they really didn't have much impact past the NES... I think I'd rather take my chances with who else would get the spot.

And keep in mind Takamaru, Sukapon and Mike Jones would all likely be excluded by their exclusivity. I know Takamaru isn't exclusive anymore, but I don't think any of his appearances would be sufficiently notable to the global audience to Sakurai to remedy his status. And Ayumi has been revived.

But I'll say this much. If, in theory, including like... Mach Rider actually helped resuscitate the series like KI, I could get behind it. But that's a hypothetical on top of a hypothetical. On top of a hypothetical.

I'm in a similar position in that there are a lot of "retro" picks (under the more inclusive definition) I would like to see but not really a lot that is specifically representing the NES era. Out of the "only really successful on the NES" crew I think of Excitebike as kind of the last outstanding pick, and after getting them I'd be basically satisfied with the first-party NES representation.