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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Gengar84

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I just watched Delzethin’s moveset concept on Noah and I think he did a great job. I beat the base game of Xenoblade 3 and put over 120 hours into it and was pretty indifferent to his (solo) inclusion in Smash. As much as I love JRPGs and anime I guess I might be starting to tire of the “anime swordsman” archetype in Smash. Delzethin’s inclusion of various attacks from his partners and the cooldown system for his specials go a long way in making his moveset a lot more interesting. Some of his ideas, I’ve had similar concepts for other characters, such as the AoE buff that could help your allies for Shionne and cooldown system for Jinx. Great work all around for making a character interesting that I didn’t particularly care about for Smash beforehand. I’d still prefer Mio, a team, or (my favorite) a permanent Ouroboros fusion, but I’d be happy if this is what we ended up with.
 
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RileyXY1

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Jun 8, 2016
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Yeah, DLC being a thing really helps the odds of a new Fire Emblem character next time, and is also why I personally think Engage absolutely missed the boat.

New Fire Emblem games have come out, on average, every two years since the series began, with very few exceptions: three years between Genealogy and Thracia (likely due to the absolutely weird circumstances surrounding Thracia's release), only one year each between Blazing Blade, Sacred Stones, and Path of Radiance (because Sacred Stones wasn't even originally in the plans; they just made it quickly as a stopgap), three years between Awakening and Fates (likely due to Fates being three separate games), and then three and a half years between Three Houses and Engage (because of the pandemic; internal files confirm it was meant to release in 2021, fitting the two year pattern).

The all but officially confirmed remake of Genealogy of the Holy War is nigh guaranteed for either later this year or early next year. And as someone that doesn't expect the next Smash until 2027 (2026 at the absolute earliest), that's absolutely enough time for the next game to come out, even before Smash's DLC cycle.
I'm not expecting the next Smash to come out that late unless the next console is releasing later than expected, like if it comes out in 2025 or even 2026. I'm mostly expecting a 2025 release myself.
 

Gengar84

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For fans of classic Beat ‘em ups, it looks like Double Dragon is finally getting a new game. I’d probably prefer the Streets of Rage 4 graphical style for Double Dragon but it’s great that it’s getting something. It’s cool to see the genre make a bit of a resurgence in recent years. Hopefully we get another new Battletoads game before too long. A new game usually helps a character’s chances for Smash.

 
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Nabbitfan730

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Does anybody still remember time where characters like Reimu, KOS-MOS, Arle and even Jonesy and Caco Demon were front-runners and solid locks for people in Smash Picks.

Smash Speculation especially 2019/early 2020 went into such wild and weirdly exciting territory.
1683127603788.png
1683128125447.png
1683128198881.png


Or even the time where Steve was painted as a literal villian with a mock appearance to boot?

1683128692608.png
 
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RileyXY1

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Does anybody still remember time where characters like Reimu, KOS-MOS, Arle and even Jonesy and Caco Demon were front-runners and solid locks for people in Smash Picks.

Smash Speculation especially 2019/early 2020 went into such wild and weirdly exciting territory.
Yeah. It was weird seeing who people thought would be frontrunners. Smash really has become so far reaching.
 

Gengar84

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That’s why I never really like to predict likelihood of a character making it in. For one, Sakurai is famous for surprising people with his choices. Who would have ever predicted Pirahna Plant? I haven’t seen many Terry, Joker, or Sephiroth predictions before their reveal either.

Secondly, I just find it more fun to talk about characters that I personally like than characters I think have the best chances. That’s just a personal preference though.

Finally, the popular and most likely characters already have a ton of discussion and I don’t know how much I can add that hasn’t already been discussed. By bringing up new character ideas, my hope is to gives us something fresh to talk about once in a while and help people open up to new ideas that haven’t really been brought up much. I’ve noticed that many in the fandom tend to fixate on just a few characters and dismiss almost everyone else. I’m guilty of talking about my favorites too often myself but I try to keep an open mind about everyone’s ideas and not rule out anything.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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Hey guys...

Why didn't we get any substantial content from Metroid Prime 3: Corruption?

Metroid Prime got a stage and lots of tracks.

Metroid Prime 2: Echoes got Dark Samus and one track.

Even Metroid Prime Hunters got a track.

Metroid Prime 3: Corruption only got a couple of spirits. Why?
 

RileyXY1

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That’s why I never really like to predict likelihood of a character making it in. For one, Sakurai is famous for surprising people with his choices. Who would have ever predicted Pirahna Plant? I haven’t seen many Terry, Joker, or Sephiroth predictions before their reveal either.

Secondly, I just find it more fun to talk about characters that I personally like than characters I think have the best chances. That’s just a personal preference though.

Finally, the popular and most likely characters already have a ton of discussion and I don’t know how much I can add that hasn’t already been discussed. By bringing up new character ideas, my hope is to gives us something fresh to talk about once in a while and help people open up to new ideas that haven’t really been brought up much. I’ve noticed that many in the fandom tend to fixate on just a few characters and dismiss almost everyone else. I’m guilty of talking about my favorites too often myself but I try to keep an open mind about everyone’s ideas and not rule out anything.
I agree fullstop. I like speculating on characters that the fans believe have little to no chances. Besides the fact that I like rooting for the underdogs it just makes it that much more exciting when they do get in. Plus, I like being shocked by reveals and thinking to myself "Oh my God! That character is in Smash now!".
 

MasterOfKnees

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Hey guys...

Why didn't we get any substantial content from Metroid Prime 3: Corruption?

Metroid Prime got a stage and lots of tracks.

Metroid Prime 2: Echoes got Dark Samus and one track.

Even Metroid Prime Hunters got a track.

Metroid Prime 3: Corruption only got a couple of spirits. Why?
Most of the Metroid Prime content in Smash date back to Brawl, when the subseries was at its most relevant, and Prime 3 came out too late (August 2007 in the west, after Brawl in Japan) to get any meaningful content in there. By Smash 4 the focus had largely shifted to representing Other M, and once we got to Ultimate the game was over a decade old.

I wouldn't say Prime 3 has a lot of obvious content to include either. Rundas' theme and its version of Dark Samus' theme should probably be in, but I kinda get why the game didn't get any content past its time of relevancy, as it doesn't have a particularly strong legacy in the same way the first Prime game has. Add to it that Smash generally prioritizes representing the main series, and it is what it is.

For what it's worth they gave Dark Samus her Prime 3 design, so that's something I suppose.
 

Gengar84

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On the subject of characters that don’t get brought up much, how does everyone feel about Vi from League of Legends/Arcane either as a stand-alone character or tag duo with Jinx. Vi was the main protagonist of Arcane and has a Smash-mouth fighting style fitting for a game like Smash. Her history with Jinx could make the two an interesting transform duo as Vi focuses on hard hitting melee attacks while Jinx is mostly a quick ranged fighter. I feel like the two styles would play well together much like Alphen and Shionne.

1683129067467.jpeg
 

Wonder Smash

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For fans of classic Beat ‘em ups, it looks like Double Dragon is finally getting a new game. I’d probably prefer the Streets of Rage 4 graphical style for Double Dragon but it’s great that it’s getting something. It’s cool to see the genre make a bit of a resurgence in recent years. Hopefully we get another new Battletoads game before too long. A new game usually helps a character’s chances for Smash.

I just saw that too. Yeah, it's great to see the beat'em up genre growing again in these recent years and now even Double Dragon is getting something new. I love it!

At this point, there's no way the genre can be ignored by the time the next Smash game comes out. Based on how active the series is, I think River City (which, in recent years, has gotten three games, a retro collection, and a localized rerelease) has the best chance to be represented.
 
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TCT~Phantom

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On the subject of characters that don’t get brought up much, how does everyone feel about Vi from League of Legends/Arcane either as a stand-alone character or tag duo with Jinx. Vi was the main protagonist of Arcane and has a Smash-mouth fighting style fitting for a game like Smash. Her history with Jinx could make the two an interesting transform duo as Vi focuses on hard hitting melee attacks while Jinx is mostly a quick ranged fighter. I feel like the two styles would play well together much like Alphen and Shionne.

View attachment 371629
Having Jinx and Vi work together would feel very OoC and a strange decision. Given their... tense relationship, a tag team between the two being the way League is represented seems really unlikely. It would be like having a tag team between Link and Ganon almost.

I think League representation in Smash is likely, but I think it would be a solo character (probably Jinx) and not some sort of tag team.
 

Gengar84

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Having Jinx and Vi work together would feel very OoC and a strange decision. Given their... tense relationship, a tag team between the two being the way League is represented seems really unlikely. It would be like having a tag team between Link and Ganon almost.

I think League representation in Smash is likely, but I think it would be a solo character (probably Jinx) and not some sort of tag team.
Yeah, that’s a good point. Jinx and Vi worked together at some point unlike Link and Ganondorf but I see what you’re saying. I just see the two characters promoted together so often that it would be cool to see both of them. Kind of like getting Ryu without Ken or Scorpion without Sub-Zero. The team was just a random thought I had since they actually have paired up and fought together but it’s definitely not necessary. I just thought it would be a good way to get both characters.

There’s the option for Vi as a stand-alone fighter as well but I never really see her brought up much. I think smashing characters with her giant gauntlets could be a lot of fun. I think pretty much every character from the series is cool so I’m happy either way. It is kind of interesting that the villain (Jinx) is seen as the more likely of the two here compared to the protagonist (Vi). My only real exposure to the franchise is through Arcane and Ruined King so I admit I don’t know a whole lot.
 
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Wonder Smash

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That’s why I never really like to predict likelihood of a character making it in. For one, Sakurai is famous for surprising people with his choices. Who would have ever predicted Pirahna Plant? I haven’t seen many Terry, Joker, or Sephiroth predictions before their reveal either.

Secondly, I just find it more fun to talk about characters that I personally like than characters I think have the best chances. That’s just a personal preference though.

Finally, the popular and most likely characters already have a ton of discussion and I don’t know how much I can add that hasn’t already been discussed. By bringing up new character ideas, my hope is to gives us something fresh to talk about once in a while and help people open up to new ideas that haven’t really been brought up much. I’ve noticed that many in the fandom tend to fixate on just a few characters and dismiss almost everyone else. I’m guilty of talking about my favorites too often myself but I try to keep an open mind about everyone’s ideas and not rule out anything.
Yeah, it's a waste of time to try to predict things with Smash because like you said, Sakurai likes to surprise people with his choices, right down the last minute of the character's reveal. The best we can do is discuss the chances of a character getting in and that's usually going by the popularity, iconic status, fan demand, or association with Nintendo. Trying to decide which character is a front-runner or shoo-in almost never works.
 

smashkirby

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Maybe if we're lucky, they'll be willing to even give their more obscure series a chance with a movie, like Marvel and DC have in the past. Imagine something like a Custom Robo movie!
If only... Heck, I'd watch a movie about StarTropics, Pilotwings, Golden Sun, Wars, Sin & Punishment, you name it!
 

Gengar84

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I also noticed that the Embracer Group owns a lot of awesome characters that have among my favorite visual and thematic design. Legacy of Kain and Darksiders have some of the coolest looking characters in gaming and someone like Raziel or Death would be awesome in Smash. Borderlands is also a lot of fun and has really interesting characters with unique abilities. Finally, Tomb Raider is so iconic and it would be great to see Lara Croft make it into Smash one day. Legacy of Kain and Darksiders probably need a big new game to have a realistic shot but I could see Borderlands and Tomb Raider getting representation as is.

(On a side not, yay me for hitting 4,000 posts 😀.)
 
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chocolatejr9

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I also noticed that the Embracer Group owns a lot of awesome characters that have among my favorite visual and thematic design. Legacy of Kain and Darksiders have some of the coolest looking characters in gaming and someone like Raziel or Death would be awesome in Smash. Borderlands is also a lot of fun and has really interesting characters with unique abilities. Finally, Tomb Raider is so iconic and it would be great to see Lara Croft make it into Smash one day. Legacy of Kain and Darksiders probably need a big new game to have a realistic shot but I could see Borderlands and Tomb Raider getting representation as is.

(On a side not, yay me for hitting 4,000 posts 😀.)
Yeah, I could maybe see Embracer being a sleeper pick. Especially if they keep up their acquisition game...
 

Opossum

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I'm not expecting the next Smash to come out that late unless the next console is releasing later than expected, like if it comes out in 2025 or even 2026. I'm mostly expecting a 2025 release myself.
Personally I don't think we'll see the Switch's successor until, at the earliest, late 2025. That's why I'm predicting 2026-27 for the next Smash.
Hey guys...

Why didn't we get any substantial content from Metroid Prime 3: Corruption?

Metroid Prime got a stage and lots of tracks.

Metroid Prime 2: Echoes got Dark Samus and one track.

Even Metroid Prime Hunters got a track.

Metroid Prime 3: Corruption only got a couple of spirits. Why?
Man...remember in the pre-E3 2013 speculation days when so many people wanted and predicted a Skytown Elysia stage?

I miss those times sometimes.
 

dream1ng

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The good ending would be to add her 6 design and her alpha design as Alt skins.
Agreed but with the lack of Hot Ryu I'm not holding my breath

Though maybe the next game will greatly expand the selection with paid skins, with whatever has prevented them thus far (as I'm sure the idea has been raised) being overcome.

Does anybody still remember time where characters like Reimu, KOS-MOS, Arle and even Jonesy and Caco Demon were front-runners and solid locks for people in Smash Picks.

Smash Speculation especially 2019/early 2020 went into such wild and weirdly exciting territory.View attachment 371625View attachment 371626View attachment 371627

Or even the time where Steve was painted as a literal villian with a mock appearance to boot?

View attachment 371628
For some people yes, but the community as a whole never saw those characters as front-runners. Well, after Steve, fears of Fortnite grew, but certainly no one was psyched on it.

I do remember the Reimu music leak wouldn't die though. Not that I necessarily have anything against Reimu, but after so long it's just clear the timing didn't make sense for it to be valid any more.

Hey guys...

Why didn't we get any substantial content from Metroid Prime 3: Corruption?

Metroid Prime got a stage and lots of tracks.

Metroid Prime 2: Echoes got Dark Samus and one track.

Even Metroid Prime Hunters got a track.

Metroid Prime 3: Corruption only got a couple of spirits. Why?
I think if a game is western, the chance it gets less content raises based on what else is available for the series.

Oftentimes western games only get the extent of the content they do because fans won't shut the hell up about it. i.e. Diddy and K. Rool both being very popular against DK usually being in a perpetual state of underrepresentation, Dark Samus getting in via popularity (among clone candidates), demands for Ridley in Brawl leading to two boss fights (thus incorporating Meta-Ridley).

Little Mac was also popular, but I wouldn't count him since I don't think he got in based on that. Though if Punch-Out had two recent games instead of one, one Japan developed and one western developed, it wouldn't surprise me if most of the content skewed towards the Japan one. Even then, Sakurai took a lot of inspiration from the arcade title, which was like... the least-well known one. Though perhaps that was different in Japan.

I mean, across the four Prime games (including Hunters - we don't talk about FedForce), there's... one stage. Only Prime 1 has more than a single piece of music. If this EPD DK game comes to pass, I bet you it will see more content from it than any other individual DK game apart from DKC1.

That’s why I never really like to predict likelihood of a character making it in. For one, Sakurai is famous for surprising people with his choices. Who would have ever predicted Pirahna Plant? I haven’t seen many Terry, Joker, or Sephiroth predictions before their reveal either.
That's true. But it's not true to the extent no characters we receive were predicted beforehand, which will sort of keep the engine going. I don't think anyone is realistically going in thinking they'll be able to predict everyone, or that there won't be surprises.

And though spots are limited, some characters do get in based on the online fanbase. Which is pretty effective fuel for speculation.

Secondly, I just find it more fun to talk about characters that I personally like than characters I think have the best chances. That’s just a personal preference though.

Finally, the popular and most likely characters already have a ton of discussion and I don’t know how much I can add that hasn’t already been discussed. By bringing up new character ideas, my hope is to gives us something fresh to talk about once in a while and help people open up to new ideas that haven’t really been brought up much. I’ve noticed that many in the fandom tend to fixate on just a few characters and dismiss almost everyone else. I’m guilty of talking about my favorites too often myself but I try to keep an open mind about everyone’s ideas and not rule out anything.
Can't fault any of that. Makes sense.

The only issue is that it's hard to maintain momentum on a character who isn't among the smallish pool of usual suspects, because expectation and popularity are intrinsically interwoven. If people don't see reason to expect a character, it's tough for them to gain the popularity to become a conversation regular. Mix that against how bringing up a longshot too many times actually starts turning people against that character, and it's a tricky balancing act.

Not to suggest you stop. Conversation otherwise is incredibly cyclical. It's just real tough for somewhat arbitrary choices to get a lasting foothold in speculation. In part because dickheads like me who generally frame things realistically rather than "wouldn't it be cool?" aren't helpful from a non-pragmatic perspective.

I also noticed that the Embracer Group owns a lot of awesome characters that have among my favorite visual and thematic design. Legacy of Kain and Darksiders have some of the coolest looking characters in gaming and someone like Raziel or Death would be awesome in Smash. Borderlands is also a lot of fun and has really interesting characters with unique abilities. Finally, Tomb Raider is so iconic and it would be great to see Lara Croft make it into Smash one day. Legacy of Kain and Darksiders probably need a big new game to have a realistic shot but I could see Borderlands and Tomb Raider getting representation as is.

(On a side not, yay me for hitting 4,000 posts 😀.)
Imo Borderlands' art style does make it conducive to fitting Smash. Maybe not a character, but getting something somewhere wouldn't look out of place to me. Even just a Psycho Mii costume.

Of course since it's M, it's be the weirdness of seeing Smash Bros x Psycho.

Also since Embracer now owns the Eidos catalogue, we'll probably actually see the Legacy of Kain IP not being squandered, which is nice.

On the subject of characters that don’t get brought up much, how does everyone feel about Vi from League of Legends/Arcane either as a stand-alone character or tag duo with Jinx. Vi was the main protagonist of Arcane and has a Smash-mouth fighting style fitting for a game like Smash. Her history with Jinx could make the two an interesting transform duo as Vi focuses on hard hitting melee attacks while Jinx is mostly a quick ranged fighter. I feel like the two styles would play well together much like Alphen and Shionne.

View attachment 371629
I have immense doubts it would be Vi over Jinx and not vice versa. Jinx has sort of become the de facto face of LoL, and is more popular than Vi.

For instance, she's the one that got the Fortnite appearance.

It'd sort of be like getting Liu Kang, the hero/actual protagonist, over Scorpion, the morally ambiguous mascot.

Plus we also have a lot of brawlers, another gunner wouldn't go amiss.

But just getting LoL content in general I don't find nearly as objectionable as others do. Still waiting on Wild Rift to show up on Switch though.

Man...remember in the pre-E3 2013 speculation days when so many people wanted and predicted a Skytown Elysia stage?

I miss those times sometimes.
Dread it, run from it... Other M still arrives.
 

dream1ng

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Well, the AW remake is doing better than I thought, at least:

That's very nice, though I have fears Nintendo might view AW as more trouble than it's worth at this point, considering its fairly cursed release history and the ongoing state of the world against the fact that it's never been, like, hugely successful.

Though maybe if this game performs well enough, they won't close the door.
 

RileyXY1

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That's very nice, though I have fears Nintendo might view AW as more trouble than it's worth at this point, considering its fairly cursed release history and the ongoing state of the world against the fact that it's never been, like, hugely successful.

Though maybe if this game performs well enough, they won't close the door.
Although I think that Switch Wars will do well enough that there will be a proper new entry possibly coming in the future.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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Honestly that WayForward seems interested in doing more AW games might be the life preserver the series needs. Nintendo's lack of interest in doing in house work on the series, Intelligent Systems being busy with FE, & the problem of finding a new developer would be very worrying, but a fairly well regarded studio like WarForward being available? That and the potential solid sales of Re-boot Camp could very well be the thing that saves the franchise.
 

RileyXY1

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Honestly that WayForward seems interested in doing more AW games might be the life preserver the series needs. Nintendo's lack of interest in doing in house work on the series, Intelligent Systems being busy with FE, & the problem of finding a new developer would be very worrying, but a fairly well regarded studio like WarForward being available? That and the potential solid sales of Re-boot Camp could very well be the thing that saves the franchise.
Yeah. I think that we can see more Switch Wars titles in the future.
 

dream1ng

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Although I think that Switch Wars will do well enough that there will be a proper new entry possibly coming in the future.
Hopefully. I just think the requisite bar for returning to the series is higher than it would be for another in its place.
 

SPEN18

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Ya WayForward staying on AW past the Reboot Camp could indeed be the series' ticket to revival.

The Reboot Camp is a very by-the-numbers remake, however, so it remains to be seen if Nintendo would allow WayForward to make a brand new game. For this game they did little in terms of designing new missions or making adjustments to the game balance (i.e. unit cost or power adjustments, CO power balance), let alone introducing brand new mechanics, COs, or units which could demand serious attention to detail if the quality of the tactical gameplay is to be maintained. There's just not a lot of evidence of WayForward's ability to do tactical map design or to further experiment with the existing AW mechanics in the Reboot Camp, again because they apparently weren't even given the leash to make a few new War Room or VS. mode maps. Doesn't mean they couldn't do it; we just didn't see much of it here (though to be clear it probably isn't their fault).

The above in conjunction with the sales are my main concerns when it comes to the potential for a new Advance Wars. That said, I remain hopeful both that WayForward could do a decent job with a proper sequel and that Nintendo would let them have the chance at it. Sounds like we might be able to take a sigh of relief on the sales, but still I'd like to see actual numbers before I get too comfy!
 
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Gengar84

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Agreed but with the lack of Hot Ryu I'm not holding my breath

Though maybe the next game will greatly expand the selection with paid skins, with whatever has prevented them thus far (as I'm sure the idea has been raised) being overcome.


For some people yes, but the community as a whole never saw those characters as front-runners. Well, after Steve, fears of Fortnite grew, but certainly no one was psyched on it.

I do remember the Reimu music leak wouldn't die though. Not that I necessarily have anything against Reimu, but after so long it's just clear the timing didn't make sense for it to be valid any more.


I think if a game is western, the chance it gets less content raises based on what else is available for the series.

Oftentimes western games only get the extent of the content they do because fans won't shut the hell up about it. i.e. Diddy and K. Rool both being very popular against DK usually being in a perpetual state of underrepresentation, Dark Samus getting in via popularity (among clone candidates), demands for Ridley in Brawl leading to two boss fights (thus incorporating Meta-Ridley).

Little Mac was also popular, but I wouldn't count him since I don't think he got in based on that. Though if Punch-Out had two recent games instead of one, one Japan developed and one western developed, it wouldn't surprise me if most of the content skewed towards the Japan one. Even then, Sakurai took a lot of inspiration from the arcade title, which was like... the least-well known one. Though perhaps that was different in Japan.

I mean, across the four Prime games (including Hunters - we don't talk about FedForce), there's... one stage. Only Prime 1 has more than a single piece of music. If this EPD DK game comes to pass, I bet you it will see more content from it than any other individual DK game apart from DKC1.


That's true. But it's not true to the extent no characters we receive were predicted beforehand, which will sort of keep the engine going. I don't think anyone is realistically going in thinking they'll be able to predict everyone, or that there won't be surprises.

And though spots are limited, some characters do get in based on the online fanbase. Which is pretty effective fuel for speculation.


Can't fault any of that. Makes sense.

The only issue is that it's hard to maintain momentum on a character who isn't among the smallish pool of usual suspects, because expectation and popularity are intrinsically interwoven. If people don't see reason to expect a character, it's tough for them to gain the popularity to become a conversation regular. Mix that against how bringing up a longshot too many times actually starts turning people against that character, and it's a tricky balancing act.

Not to suggest you stop. Conversation otherwise is incredibly cyclical. It's just real tough for somewhat arbitrary choices to get a lasting foothold in speculation. In part because dickheads like me who generally frame things realistically rather than "wouldn't it be cool?" aren't helpful from a non-pragmatic perspective.


Imo Borderlands' art style does make it conducive to fitting Smash. Maybe not a character, but getting something somewhere wouldn't look out of place to me. Even just a Psycho Mii costume.

Of course since it's M, it's be the weirdness of seeing Smash Bros x Psycho.

Also since Embracer now owns the Eidos catalogue, we'll probably actually see the Legacy of Kain IP not being squandered, which is nice.


I have immense doubts it would be Vi over Jinx and not vice versa. Jinx has sort of become the de facto face of LoL, and is more popular than Vi.

For instance, she's the one that got the Fortnite appearance.

It'd sort of be like getting Liu Kang, the hero/actual protagonist, over Scorpion, the morally ambiguous mascot.

Plus we also have a lot of brawlers, another gunner wouldn't go amiss.

But just getting LoL content in general I don't find nearly as objectionable as others do. Still waiting on Wild Rift to show up on Switch though.


Dread it, run from it... Other M still arrives.
You make a lot of good points but Vi was also added to Fortnite alongside Jinx. Not saying Vi would make it in over Jinx but the two tend to show up together whenever one appears.

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Again, my only real knowledge of the series comes from Arcane and the RPG Forgotten King so I don’t really know which heroes are the most popular in the main games. Jinx and Ahri tend to come up a lot so I’d guess they are the most popular. I am curious how much of a boost Arcane gave to Vi’s popularity. I thought she was a great character in that show, though Jinx was as well.
 
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LiveStudioAudience

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Ya WayForward staying on AW past the Reboot Camp could indeed be the series' ticket to revival.

The Reboot Camp is a very by-the-numbers remake, however, so it remains to be seen if Nintendo would allow WayForward to make a brand new game. For this game they did virtually zero in terms of designing new missions or making even slight adjustments to the game balance (i.e. unit cost or power adjustments, CO power balance), let alone introducing brand new mechanics, COs, or units which could demand serious attention to detail if the quality of the tactical gameplay is to be maintained. There's just no evidence of WayForward's ability to do tactical map design or to further experiment with the existing AW mechanics in the Reboot Camp, again because they apparently weren't even given the leash to make a few new War Room or VS. mode maps. Doesn't mean they couldn't do it; we just didn't see it here.

The above in conjunction with the sales are my main concerns when it comes to the potential for a new Advance Wars. That said, I remain hopeful both that WayForward could do a decent job with a proper sequel and that Nintendo would let them have the chance at it. Sounds like we might be able to take a sigh of relief on the sales, but still I'd like to see actual numbers before I get too comfy!
I almost wonder if the standardized nature of the current game was a deliberate test by Nintendo for both WayForward and the market. Basically if a no frills version of Advance Wars could sell reasonably well (and WayForward could demonstrate something with the art design/aethetics without new gameplay elements as a crutch) then the IP is worth investing in for doing real sequels.
 
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CapitaineCrash

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I think if a game is western, the chance it gets less content raises based on what else is available for the series.

Oftentimes western games only get the extent of the content they do because fans won't shut the hell up about it. i.e. Diddy and K. Rool both being very popular against DK usually being in a perpetual state of underrepresentation, Dark Samus getting in via popularity (among clone candidates), demands for Ridley in Brawl leading to two boss fights (thus incorporating Meta-Ridley).

Little Mac was also popular, but I wouldn't count him since I don't think he got in based on that. Though if Punch-Out had two recent games instead of one, one Japan developed and one western developed, it wouldn't surprise me if most of the content skewed towards the Japan one. Even then, Sakurai took a lot of inspiration from the arcade title, which was like... the least-well known one. Though perhaps that was different in Japan.

I mean, across the four Prime games (including Hunters - we don't talk about FedForce), there's... one stage. Only Prime 1 has more than a single piece of music. If this EPD DK game comes to pass, I bet you it will see more content from it than any other individual DK game apart from DKC1.
I don't think those games have less content in Smash just because they're Western games, it just happen that most Nintendo's Western studios are spin-off (or sub-series in the case of Prime) and they make way less games too. Imo it's pretty obvious that Prime will have less content in Smash because most people will remember Metroid for the original 2d games, and Sakurai usually likes to pull representation from the origins of the franchise.

Also with K. Rool, I don't think it took that long to get him just because he's a Western characters. I mean, they put priority on Diddy for Brawl, and by the time Smash 4 released and K. Rool actually had chances to be picked he had no big roles since 1999 (15 years). Even if he was Japanese, he wouldn't have been considered in that state and the ballot really saved him. About the DK franchise stages, Jungle beat had a stage in Brawl and DK Returns had a stage in Wii U. Tropical freeze released too late to get a stage in Wii U and since Ultimate barely got any new stages, it didn't got stages. It's a shame, but at the end of the day it's just bad timing, not specifically because it's a Western game. Again, assuming it would have the same release date, I don't think Tropical freeze would got a stage if it was made in Japan because with Ultimate only having 4 new stages (with two of them meant to rep new franchises), there was just no room for a DK stage, especially because Tropical freeze was 4 years old at that point and on the past console.

And again with Punch-Out, they took inspiration from the arcade game not because it was a Japanese games, but because this is Little mac origins and most characters moveset and designs are pulled from their first appearances (besides, it's not like Mac was THAT different in the Wii game, I mean... he just punch stuff... that was always his thing).

I'm sure that the next Smash will have a bunch of Western Nintendo stuff, including Luigi mansion 3 music and stages and Prime 4 content. It's just that those western studios are way less active than others Nintendo studios so they seems to get the worse end of the stick but it's mostly because either of bad timing or their game are just objectively less popular than the Nintendo Japanese games.
 

SPEN18

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I almost wonder if the standardized nature of the current game was a deliberate test by Nintendo for both WayForward and the market. Basically if a no frills version of Advance Wars could sell reasonably well (and WayForward could demonstrate something with the art design/aethetics without new gameplay elements as a crutch) then the IP is worth investing in for doing real sequels.
I do think the game itself was a deliberate test. But you'd think that such a test could have easily included some low-effort, low-risk challenges like designing a few new maps that are just going to be part of the optional side content. I can understand them not wanting to mess with the game balance, as the campaign is built around it. It's just that seeing a bit more freedom given to WayForward and less of a one-to-one remake would have inspired more confidence in the prospects of a new release after this; even if that's not to say that getting the opposite completely ruins said confidence.
 
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LiveStudioAudience

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With DK specifically its hard to escape a sense that Nintendo didn't always understand the extent of how popular the Country titles (and their elements) actually were. I don't think any of it was ever dislike or even outright lack of interest in what Rare (and later Retro) did, just that the backlash when such things weren't featured and the diminished hype for non-Country DK releases was something they never really seemed to anticipate. Its unrealistic for even a modern video game company to have exact marketing/research information about what different fans want, but even still that it took a ballot for K Rool to get in feels like it speaks to a bit of disconnect between their assumptions and much of Smash/wider Nintendo fandom pre-2014.

I think some of that's changed, but it any shifts will have to make up a great deal of lost time and general lack of momentum the IP has had.
 

MasterCheef

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On the subject of characters that don’t get brought up much, how does everyone feel about Vi from League of Legends/Arcane either as a stand-alone character or tag duo with Jinx. Vi was the main protagonist of Arcane and has a Smash-mouth fighting style fitting for a game like Smash. Her history with Jinx could make the two an interesting transform duo as Vi focuses on hard hitting melee attacks while Jinx is mostly a quick ranged fighter.
My expectation is it will be an , ( Ahri / Jinx ) , combo. Especially when they are alreadybeing marketed this way in ( project L )
 

Guynamednelson

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The Reboot Camp is a very by-the-numbers remake, however, so it remains to be seen if Nintendo would allow WayForward to make a brand new game. For this game they did virtually zero in terms of designing new missions or making even slight adjustments to the game balance (i.e. unit cost or power adjustments, CO power balance), let alone introducing brand new mechanics, COs, or units which could demand serious attention to detail if the quality of the tactical gameplay is to be maintained. There's just no evidence of WayForward's ability to do tactical map design or to further experiment with the existing AW mechanics in the Reboot Camp, again because they apparently weren't even given the leash to make a few new War Room or VS. mode maps. Doesn't mean they couldn't do it; we just didn't see it here.
Isn't the AI better in the remakes than the original games?
 

Gengar84

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My expectation is it will be an , ( Ahri / Jinx ) , combo. Especially when they are alreadybeing marketed this way in ( project L )
Yeah, Project L being team based was another reason I thought of the duo character idea between Jinx and Vi. Since I’ve only watched Arcane and played about 60% of Forgotten King, I haven’t seen any interaction between Jinx and Ahri. Do the two have any kind of relationship in the games? Vi and Caitlyn would actually make a lot of sense as a duo based on what I’ve seen from Arcane but I don’t think either seems to have Jinx’s popularity.
 
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MasterCheef

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Yeah, Project L being team based was another reason I thought of the duo character idea between Jinx and Vi. Since I’ve only watched Arcane and played about 60% of Forgotten King, I haven’t seen any interaction between Jinx and Ahri. Do the two have any kind of relationship in the games? Vi and Caitlyn would actually make a lot of sense as a duo based on what I’ve seen from Arcane but I don’t think either seems to have Jinx’s popularity.
Jinx soared in popularity when Riot Games decided she was the new face of their marketing plan.
However It is very unlikely Nintendo would skip Ahri as she was basically the face of League of Legends.
To date Masahiro Sakurai & Nintendo always have started with the most historically popular character for 3rd party franchises.
 

Gengar84

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Jinx soared in popularity when Riot Games decided she was the new face of their marketing plan.
However It is very unlikely Nintendo would skip Ahri as she was basically the face of League of Legends.
To date Masahiro Sakurai & Nintendo always have started with the most historically popular character for 3rd party franchises.
It’s hard to find any kind of list that ranks the champions as characters beyond just who is the most powerful in the main game. My guess is that the characters represented in Arcane and the Forgotten King are likely among the most popular in the main game, which likely led to their inclusion. Most popularity lists I’m seeing is just ranking who is the most competitively viable, which isn’t quite the same thing.

Here’s the characters I remember from each:

Arcane:
Jinx
Vi
Echo
Caitlyn
Jayce
Victor
Singe
Heimerdinger

Forgotten King:
Ahri
Miss Fortune
Braum
Yasuo
Illaoi
Pyke
Gangplank
 
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