chocolatejr9
Smash Hero
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You know what? I'm going CURSED with this one: a stage based on that Lily's Garden mobile game with all the creepy ads on Youtube.
I wanna watch the world burn...
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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread
- Thread starter NonSpecificGuy
- Start date
I wanna watch the world burn...
Perkilator
Smash Legend
I think this might also be a good opportunity, if possible, to sneak in some extra Spirits for some franchises, one or two extra areas in WoL, and maybe even an extra mode (alongside Home-Run Contest). I’m not necessarily trying to be realistic, though.
DarthEnderX
Smash Hero
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Why would an extra year of dev time cause you to LOSE characters?
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I actually do think giving Ult more time before release would have been beneficial; I remember thinking this a lot when the game first came out. There was a lot of singleplayer stuff embarrassingly missing from base (like stage builder for ex.) and, yes, the disappointingly small newcomer roster would also likely have benefitted from some extra dev time. In particular, I agree that this could have been exactly what was needed to get a character like Isaac, or other characters fitting slot archetypes that usually fill the second half of a bigger newcomer roster (for ex. more niche franchises or legacy reps).
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Stuff like Stage Builder etc. are not as important as the final full roster either. The game sells on characters, not modes. We got a massive amount of content, just some of the modes became DLC because they had no time. It's an extra but fun activity. It's not a key missing thing. HRC being gone sucks, and is far more odd in comparison. Though both take extra work regardless. Stage Builder isn't some simple mode, but actually requires every block etc. but actually has tons of data/etc. to work with. Think of it as making tons of pieces that need to interact with multiple characters(60+) correctly. That takes time. I not being in base? Meh, it's fair. The actual issue comes more from how underwhelming Stage Builder is now that it's back. It wasn't much updated with new stuff. We also entirely lost Target Tests, and it wasn't even used to return those in a unique manner(as custom ones). It pretty much peaked at Wii U by improving on Brawl's with the ability to draw your own landscapes. ...What new stuff it even do in Ultimate?
HRC is more odd because it's a lot more minor and only has the focus of how a single Bat affects Sandbag based upon which character is using it. While it's still a fair amount of work by design either way, it's not to the same degree as tons of parts you have to take into account.
However, a single year wouldn't have made them immediate high priority to include in base either. They weren't important things but fun modes in general. I'm glad they're back, but to give credit where it's due, the most important stuff was our Story Mode, Classic, anything that deals with the Collectables, and Multiplayer. The rest are bonuses to make the game even better. We still got a variant on Event Mode with how Spirit Matches work(for better or worse), and while the single player is a bit underwhelming, it's hardly small. Adventure Mode is honestly huge, we got some really nice Classic stuff including a new Race to the Finish, and a pretty nice cast of characters.
That said, HRC being late probably made sense anyway, since it's easier to program it when you have more characters at once. You don't need to dabble with reprogramming over and over again. It actually worked out rather well in the long run.
HRC is more odd because it's a lot more minor and only has the focus of how a single Bat affects Sandbag based upon which character is using it. While it's still a fair amount of work by design either way, it's not to the same degree as tons of parts you have to take into account.
However, a single year wouldn't have made them immediate high priority to include in base either. They weren't important things but fun modes in general. I'm glad they're back, but to give credit where it's due, the most important stuff was our Story Mode, Classic, anything that deals with the Collectables, and Multiplayer. The rest are bonuses to make the game even better. We still got a variant on Event Mode with how Spirit Matches work(for better or worse), and while the single player is a bit underwhelming, it's hardly small. Adventure Mode is honestly huge, we got some really nice Classic stuff including a new Race to the Finish, and a pretty nice cast of characters.
That said, HRC being late probably made sense anyway, since it's easier to program it when you have more characters at once. You don't need to dabble with reprogramming over and over again. It actually worked out rather well in the long run.
Oracle Link
Smash Master
Do you seriously want Octorok?
I do and im tired of Pretending i dont!
Octorock Supremacy!
[Spits Rock]
I do and im tired of Pretending i dont!
Octorock Supremacy!
[Spits Rock]
i don't recall you pretending otherwise
Oracle Link
Smash Master
True i was always a fan of the boi hes currently watching some fireworks!
Ivander
Smash Legend
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Smash Ultimate's Stage Builder brought us the ability to make backgrounds and foregrounds, something that really got people's attention. Terrain is also set to the same materials compared to changing with the background in previous games. Magma tiles became the Lava terrain and alongside that, we got ice terrain, something that was in neither previous Smash game.
Smash Ultimate's stage builder also came with the Gear, rails and terrain gravity, allowing for moving/rotating terrain and platforms or for terrain/platforms to even fall. It also gave switches for allowing terrain and platforms to move or rotate the other way when used. It also brought windy areas, warp zones, bumpers, and bomb blocks, as well as ladders back.
The addition to put terrain in the background and foreground was easily the biggest deal to Stage creators. It allowed you to hide the actual background and make your own background, and creators spared no expenses in making some really detailed stages. They also found some neat uses with the gear, rails and terrain gravity, and even found some clever ways of melding terrain with each other for effects. While it may not have introduced anything majorly game-changing from Smash 4's Stage builder, being able put stuff in the background and foreground allowed creators to give their stages alot more details and made for some fantastically detailed stages that really brought out personality.
If anything, the thing that really hurts Ultimate's Stage Creator is the data/block usage for stages, including for stuff used in the background and foreground. I've seen so many detailed stages that look like they would be awesome to play with 8-players, but because of how much they used, you couldn't on those stages. Man, if you could create to your heart's content without worrying about how much data you used, the Stage builder would've gone from really good to phenomenal.
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It wouldn’t. But you know there are several people on here who are gonna act like EiH was some compromise measure and we would get a “real” roster instead of what we got. This is less of Ultimate but * insert person here’s* smash ultimate and moreso w realistic guess of what could have been.
Arcanir
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Piranha Plant would most likely had been a base game character if the roster took another year. The leaker of the game said they were playtesting the character and internal data implies it was intended for base game as well. With more time it probably would've been finished by the time the game released, with the only reason why it wouldn't be is if they really wanted an early adoption character.
After that one it gets iffy. Theoretically characters like Min Min or Aegis could've been on the table, but we do know from history that Sakurai does not like deviating from the original project plan once the game gets going. Since this is only extending development rather than shifting it forward, there's a fair chance they still could've been pushed off since they wouldn't have been considered by the time they finalized the roster, with the only potential exception being if a slot or two were set aside for future characters. Looking back at earlier games, another thing that may happen in this scenario is that the Echoes are given more fleshed out movesets due to more time being allowed, more Echoes are added to further pad the roster, and/or potential hypothetical characters that may've been considered for base roster but pushed off/cut early in development are included at base.
As for the base roster, yeah Incineroar would've been the only one in a potential hot seat, but even than I would hesitate to say he'd get changed out. We haven't had a Smash game release within the same year as Pokemon's newest generation, with Smash 4 and Ultimate being the closest and they released a year afterwards. So, it's not as certain that a Gen 8 Pokemon would've been prioritized due to the more unique timing and circumstances of that case, though it's not implausible either.
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Except the leak came about when it was around six months since said character would release. Which means it was worked on at the end of the game's lifespan. That does not scream "base" like you think it does. It tells us the work was done at that point and nothing else. I mean, the datamine is in August 2018, when of course it was worked on.
What we do know is that July 2017 was when DLC decided for the game by Nintendo. There was no planned DLC before that. Unless we can find PP playable data before said date, there is no actual tangible evidence it could've been base. Just conjecture only from a bit of unique data we found.
I'm not going to bring up why the Guidances don't match the theory it was base, but either way, note the second paragraph that is a key factor. You need to prove it has data before DLC was actually decided upon in order to really make it clear it was base. These are great theories, but the evidence never really was strong either way.
...Do you mean another leak/datamine though? Not the one in August? One before July 2017?
Perkilator
Smash Legend
I decided to make my own interpretation of an SSBU with more dev time using some of
TCT~Phantom
’s ideas.
TCT~Phantom
’s ideas.
Mamboo07
Smash Hero
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Perkilator
Smash Legend
He was supposed to be a playable character back in Sm4sh as an Olimar cline who uses Rock Pikmin. My idea in this case to help Alph stand out was to have the Rock Pikmin be the only Pikmin Alph uses, with the strength and weight of three regular Pikmin for Olimar.
PeridotGX
Smash Hero
personally i thank sakurai every day of the week for making alph an alt (if he was an echo it would mean it would be twice as likely to get the olimar moveset when you go random)
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Slight misleading statement here.
Pikmin & Alph was considered as a playable Echo of Pikmin & Olimar. Not "supposed to".
Rock Pikmin were also considered for Pikmin & Olimar to add to it.
Nowhere was it actually suggested that both were combined combined as a situation. Though I think it'd have been a good way to separate them.
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Eh?
You could easily give Alph new idles and taunts. It's not like Olimar's weren't made up for Smash anyways. I don't understand this argument.
Alph is requested as an echo because he sticks out. As of now he is the only alternate costume character that isn't a Koopaling or a gender/avatar swap (like Hero or Steve). Everything suggests he would have been an echo if more time and resources were there.
#JusticeforAlph
jamesster445
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Rocks for starters.
I'd also like to imagine he couldve been a Lucina like echo to Olimar's Marth. A more simplified take of the design.
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Geno Boost
Smash Master
I Prefer 3D for 1 important reason we could finally rip official 3d model of SMRPG characters and assets which many would love to use
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Alph is for people without imagination who generally fail.
Bulborb is who we should be looking at.
Bulborb is who we should be looking at.
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i look at both
chocolatejr9
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What about that one guy who wanted Plasm Wraith?
Quillion
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That's the thing though, his personality doesn't exactly deviate much from Olimar, so giving him different idles and taunts even at minimum would be pretty arbitrary.
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Sitting out by the fences by their lonesome.
So no different than usual for smash
Quillion
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What does this mean? Are you saying that there are characters in the same franchise in Smash that have similar personalities yet have different taunts and idles?
I think there’s a lot of things in smash that are completely arbitrary, bowsers voice, dk voice, diddys voice, Marths smug taunt, the smug way peach said certain taunts. How would two characters having different animations be anymore more arbitrary? Especially in a case where they weren’t drawn from a personality to begin with. None of olimars animation have got anything to do with with his personality. Unless of course I’ve missed something and the spinning around is a common thing for fathers to do in Japan
Quillion
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The examples you give are to make the characters in question look more determined or eager to fight.
Olimar and Alph having different idles and taunts feel like pointless hair splitting. It would be like if Dixie got in but had all her normals be hair whips for the sake of having no punches and kicks like Diddy. It's just pointless work for not a lot of results.
True Blue Warrior
Smash Hero
Daisy being in with practically no significant differences means there's no reason Alph can't have been an Echo Fighter.
But all those things are at odds with their personalities. So alph having different animations from a character who’s animations have got nothing to do with their personality wouldn’t even be close to the oddest thing in this game
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Daisy is a godawful Echo and not a good standard for making anyone an Echo. Like, even Richter is remotely better, if barely. Dark Samus trumps both with an actual decent gameplay elemental change.
Besides, even with Rock Pikmin, those would already require actual differences due to having a different design from Purple Pikmin. Not "barely different hurtbox" like Daisy has. She's 99% the same, which is why she's a poor example of anything. I mean, she's the only Echo that people think should be cut because of the lack of differences being meaningful. Richter is given slightly more of a pass since they're more plausible in combat too, same as Dark Samus like I said above. If only just barely.
Something else to remember is part of the reason Alph is still a costume; he doesn't actually have any unique skills that Olimar doesn't have. In addition, the Pikmin are one-half of the full character. So unless they think of clear differences or new Pikmin come along, there's zero incentive for a separation(the actual character is basically Pikmin & Captain. Don't let the poor translation of their name fool you into thinking it was ever otherwise). The only bad part is the personality, and Olimar suffers equally. Both have far more personality than that and are inaccurate in that regard. Once you give Olimar personality, then you already have a decent reason to separate Alph.
Besides, at the time, there were no new Pikmin games coming out, so even without new Pikmin in general to add to make the moveset actually change a bit more properly, at least then you could use some unused Pikmin for that but the overall franchise would be more active enough to justify an Echo. I mean, Rock Pikmin aside, Bulbmin are also unused. It's not hard to separate them while being faithful to their personalities(that means actual better taunts). Next game is plausible, assuming the new Captain isn't used instead, which would be awkward for Alph fans, won't lie. Though I can hope at least the new Captain has a similar alternate costume, at least?
Daisy isn't in the same situation as she wasn't an actual costume for Peach but a reference at best. Even the most faithful one in Melee was closer to a cosplay than an actual alternate character design. Even then, with how terrible she was handled(seriously, you can't use one single Custom Move?), she doesn't set a good bar for creating an Echo that actually can be remotely faithful. She doesn't even have the excuse Simon and Richter had where they were intentionally based around each other's abilities. She's just there for the fans, but lacking a lot. The Toads still make little sense, and while you'd have retool her aerials and playstyle majorly for the floating to be gone(which is fair why they don't change this), she could've even had slightly different Vegetables. Like, say, Carrots from Super Mario Land. At least her Final Smash makes sense as a pure aesthetic change. Eating daisies are healthy, so it directly has a bit of a genius bonus to it.
But long story short, Daisy being a crappy Echo doesn't really matter because Pikmin & Alph have a different situation going for them beyond simply being somewhat easy to separate in theory.
Besides, even with Rock Pikmin, those would already require actual differences due to having a different design from Purple Pikmin. Not "barely different hurtbox" like Daisy has. She's 99% the same, which is why she's a poor example of anything. I mean, she's the only Echo that people think should be cut because of the lack of differences being meaningful. Richter is given slightly more of a pass since they're more plausible in combat too, same as Dark Samus like I said above. If only just barely.
Something else to remember is part of the reason Alph is still a costume; he doesn't actually have any unique skills that Olimar doesn't have. In addition, the Pikmin are one-half of the full character. So unless they think of clear differences or new Pikmin come along, there's zero incentive for a separation(the actual character is basically Pikmin & Captain. Don't let the poor translation of their name fool you into thinking it was ever otherwise). The only bad part is the personality, and Olimar suffers equally. Both have far more personality than that and are inaccurate in that regard. Once you give Olimar personality, then you already have a decent reason to separate Alph.
Besides, at the time, there were no new Pikmin games coming out, so even without new Pikmin in general to add to make the moveset actually change a bit more properly, at least then you could use some unused Pikmin for that but the overall franchise would be more active enough to justify an Echo. I mean, Rock Pikmin aside, Bulbmin are also unused. It's not hard to separate them while being faithful to their personalities(that means actual better taunts). Next game is plausible, assuming the new Captain isn't used instead, which would be awkward for Alph fans, won't lie. Though I can hope at least the new Captain has a similar alternate costume, at least?
Daisy isn't in the same situation as she wasn't an actual costume for Peach but a reference at best. Even the most faithful one in Melee was closer to a cosplay than an actual alternate character design. Even then, with how terrible she was handled(seriously, you can't use one single Custom Move?), she doesn't set a good bar for creating an Echo that actually can be remotely faithful. She doesn't even have the excuse Simon and Richter had where they were intentionally based around each other's abilities. She's just there for the fans, but lacking a lot. The Toads still make little sense, and while you'd have retool her aerials and playstyle majorly for the floating to be gone(which is fair why they don't change this), she could've even had slightly different Vegetables. Like, say, Carrots from Super Mario Land. At least her Final Smash makes sense as a pure aesthetic change. Eating daisies are healthy, so it directly has a bit of a genius bonus to it.
But long story short, Daisy being a crappy Echo doesn't really matter because Pikmin & Alph have a different situation going for them beyond simply being somewhat easy to separate in theory.
i agree
Oracle Link
Smash Master
What about Bulbmin?
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Alph is the youthful optimist engineer.
Olimar is a survivalist science loving family man.
Pikmin games give plenty of personality differences.
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Which is why it sucks Olimar is barely given any personality too from his own games. Neither show much in Smash, which is probably why the "need to split" isn't given much thought on its own when it comes to personality. But I'd still love to see that fixed up too.
Though if they're going to stick with the Captains being just alts, at least give us more overall instead of making Alph feel like he's in some weird limbo. I get why he didn't make it the first time(the Pikmin themselves were legitimately complicated gameplay-wise), and Ultimate at least was in a time period with no new games(so no incentive), but now? I see little reason to not split him. Especially if the next Smash doesn't have a new Pikmin Captain to add. And even then, a semi-clone and an Echo sound fine. Just as long as you can have some fun gameplay to go along with it~
HyperSomari64
Smash Master
A lot of characters got their personalities removed or completely changed.
Isn't this the reason why Donkey Kong doesn't make his funny noises from Returns and Tropical Freeze and only makes realistic gorilla growls?
Isn't this the reason why Donkey Kong doesn't make his funny noises from Returns and Tropical Freeze and only makes realistic gorilla growls?