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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

osby

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You're grouping yourself into that for some reason.



Have you ever thought that maybe. just maybe. I wasn't trying to "explain" why they would ever replace Joker with a SMT rep? Me saying I don't mind or it could happen is literally the whole point of my post. There's no point in trying to explain why they would replace Joker because nobody knows if they would, which is what I've been saying numerous times already. All you can do is provide reasons why you doubt such a thing could happen but you don't know the likelihood of anything that happens in the far future. And with this being in the future, you also don't seem to consider that another game could possibly surpass Persona by then...like, a new SMT game. Have you ever considered that? And if so, what could that mean for Joker in Smash by that point? Again, that's something else nobody knows. But if sells mean that much to you, then you need to keep that in mind too, as it's certainly not so ridiculous that another RPG game could possibly outsell Persona 5.
FFXIV out-profits FFVII, yet I don't see Sakurai cutting Cloud in favor of Y'shtola. The opposite really, we also got Sephiroth.

Even if Persona 5 stops being the most successful game ATLUS made, its fanbase isn't going anywhere. It won't be a death sentence for Joker, likely not even a point against him alone.
 
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Wonder Smash

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FFXIV outprofits FFVII, yet I don't see Sakurai cutting Cloud in favor of Y'shtola. The opposite really, we also got Sephiroth.

Even if Persona 5 stops being the most successful game ATLUS made, its fanbase isn't going anywhere. It won't be a death sentence for Joker, likelynot even a point sgainst him alone.
So sells would no longer the reason Joker should still be in the game. It would have to be something else entirely. And games are going to have fanbases anyway, so that's no surprise. Metal Gear still has one too.
 
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Wonder Smash

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I'm going to add something so that you can better understand why I say anything is possible and you never know; if you've been paying attention for at least the last few Smash games, you should know that trying to predict things is almost pointless. There's plenty of things that made sense that didn't happen and plenty of things that seemed so ridiculous and crazy but it still ended up happening.

Things that made sense enough that looked like it could have happened but unfortunately didn't:

Koei Tecmo characters - Long collaborative history with Nintendo on various games (Metroid: Other M, Hyrule Warriors, Fire Emblem Warriors) popular long-running series, and characters. Obviously, you'd think this would mean that a Koei Tecmo character would be in the game.

But what ended up happening?

Not a playable character in the roster. Instead, they got an AT from a series they co-owned with Nintendo and nothing from either of their most popular series at all.

Ubisoft characters - Collaborative history with Nintendo (Mario & Rabbids). Rayman and other characters from his series also appear as trophies in Smash Wii U. Obviously, you'd think Rayman seemed destined to be a playable character in the next Smash game.

But what ended up happening?

Not a playable character in the roster. Instead, he became a spirit, the Rabbids became spirits, and Altair (from Ubisoft's other popular series Assassin's Creed) became a Mii costume.

Travis Touchdown - Suda51 has been a supporter for the Nintendo consoles since the Wii with the No More Heroes series. The games have always been made for the Nintendo consoles first before they go to anything else and the idea of Travis being in Smash has been brought up numerous times. The newest game even references the Smash series.

But what ended up happening?

Not a playable character in the roster. Instead, Travis became a Mii costume and he had a spirit event.

Arc System Works characters - Despite not having a collaborative history with Nintendo, it does own some highly influential series (Guilty Gear, Blazblue, Double Dragon, River City) that have been on their consoles. In fact, in the cases of Double Dragon and River City, both series have been on Nintendo consoles for a really long time, as far back as the NES era. And with Sakurai mentioned Smash being a celebration of video games when referring to the game's genre (yes, people, he meant the genre, not series or characters), it would no doubt make sense for him to add the beat'em up genre to the mix.

But what ended up happening?

Not a playable character in the roster. Instead, River City got a spirit event.

Then there are things that sounded too ridiculous to happen but surprisingly did anyway:

Everyone is Here - That's pretty obvious. Literally everyone from the series was back. This meant Snake, a third party character that was missing from the previous game, was back. This meant both Toon Link and Young Link were in the same game. That sounded too good to be true...but it was true.

Microsoft characters - People want Banjo and Kazooie but also know that they're owned by Microsoft, who are competing with Nintendo. They weren't in Smash even back when Rare was owned by Nintendo, so their chances seemed non-existent.

But what ended up happening?

They became playable characters in the first season pass. By the second season pass, they were joined by Steve from Minecraft, another Microsoft series.

Final Fantasy VII content - Even though Cloud was in Smash 4, he came with very little content with him with just 2 FFVII tracks, one stage, and nothing else. That also continued for most of Smash Ultimate. Fans were ready to accept that trying to get more would have been too much for Nintendo to deal with and that Cloud was going to be stuck with just those 2 tracks, one stage, and nothing else.

But what ended up happening?

Additional SE content got added, which included another character from FFVII, another stage from FFVII, and more tracks from FFVII.

Sora - A character that was talked about pretty much all the time but nobody thought had much of a chance of getting in...and for a long time, he didn't.

But what ended up happening?

Look who the final character ended up being in Ultimate. I don't think there's really much else to say.

So this is why I say anything is possible and you never know because that's what Ultimate should have shown everybody by now. Just because some makes sense and sounds logical, doesn't mean that it will happen. Just because some sounds ridiculous and crazy, doesn't mean that it won't happen. So trying to argue stuff like that so seriously is a complete waste of time and energy. Just accept that nobody but Nintendo knows.
 
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Arcanir

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So this is why I say anything is possible and you never know because that's what Ultimate should have shown everybody by now. Just because some makes sense and sounds logical, doesn't mean that it will happen. Just because some sounds ridiculous and crazy, doesn't mean that it won't happen. So trying to argue stuff like that so seriously is a complete waste of time and energy. Just accept that nobody but Nintendo knows.
Then why have a discussion at all? If nobody but Nintendo knows, then what you're basically saying is that having any sort of discussion is pointless because anything can happen and thus, we're wasting our time even going over it.

And that is the problem here, no one is saying it's impossible to happen, but we can try to have discussions over if it can happen, and you keep butting heads when people give you their reasons for why they disagree with your assertions. 'Anything is possible' is not a proper counterargument because ultimately it adds nothing to the discussion, it doesn't refute anyone's points, it doesn't explain why it's possible and why we could see it happen, it's just 'well something unlikely happened in the past, so it can happen again.' What do we gain from that? We want to talk about these points, we want to get an idea of what we think the next Smash will look like, while we may not know that doesn't mean we can think and discuss and go over what we do know to come to different conclusions. Could we be wrong? Sure, but at least we're talking about it and getting to our different points in our discussion, saying 'anything is possible' and 'we don't know, so stop taking it so seriously' is just being dismissive, and that's what everyone is having a problem with.
 

SonicSmasher1

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Well, while some of what Wonder Smash said may be true, like Arcanir said, the point of discussion is to speculate, and when those times come, argue as well. Discussion is no fun if you can’t talk about anything, and trying to predict things adds to that discussion. It is just human nature. Playing the waiting game is not always fun.

It is one thing for things to happen or not happen as expected, but it is another thing to say we can’t have discussions about things because we can’t predict them.
 

Wonder Smash

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Then why have a discussion at all? If nobody but Nintendo knows, then what you're basically saying is that having any sort of discussion is pointless because anything can happen and thus, we're wasting our time even going over it.

And that is the problem here, no one is saying it's impossible to happen, but we can try to have discussions over if it can happen, and you keep butting heads when people give you their reasons for why they disagree with your assertions. 'Anything is possible' is not a proper counterargument because ultimately it adds nothing to the discussion, it doesn't refute anyone's points, it doesn't explain why it's possible and why we could see it happen, it's just 'well something unlikely happened in the past, so it can happen again.' What do we gain from that? We want to talk about these points, we want to get an idea of what we think the next Smash will look like, while we may not know that doesn't mean we can think and discuss and go over what we do know to come to different conclusions. Could we be wrong? Sure, but at least we're talking about it and getting to our different points in our discussion, saying 'anything is possible' and 'we don't know, so stop taking it so seriously' is just being dismissive, and that's what everyone is having a problem with.
Anything is possible is a proper counterargument and I just literally explained why; it's the unpredictable nature of this series and what Nintendo has done with it. If it's been shown over and over that just because something sounds logical and sensible, doesn't always mean that it will happen when it comes to this series, You can disagree all you want and you can give reasons but not force your views on others. Nobody should be doing that. In addition to that, these people were forcing their views on me, strawmanning me and it didn't warrant that. But if you're fully aware that anything is possible anyway and you could be wrong, then there's really no point in still keeping this argument. We can discuss what we would like to see and what we disagree on but this fight over who's got the better points is very childish.
 
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SonicSmasher1

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Anything is possible is a proper counterargument and I just literally explained why; it's the unpredictable nature of this series and what Nintendo has done with it. If it's been shown over and over that just because something sounds logical and sensible, doesn't always mean that it will happen when it comes to this series, You can disagree all you want and you can give reasons but that's all you're doing and that's what people need to recognize. You're not refuting any points here. You're just giving reasons. In addition to that, these people were forcing the discussion on me when my post had nothing to do with what they were talking about. It didn't even warrant that. All they just wanted to do was argue. But if you're fully aware that anything is possible anyway and you could be wrong, then there's really no point in still keeping this argument. We can discuss what we would like to see and what we disagree on but this fight over who's got the better points is very childish.
Problem is, you can’t control others to do so, and there is no solution to that.

You do make some good points, but as long as there are people who even feel a need to argue, there is no stopping them exactly.

Also, as long as there are possible counter arguments to anything, people may try to point them out.
 
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Wonder Smash

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Problem is, you can’t control others to do so, and there is no solution to that.

You do make some good points, but as long as there are people who even feel a need to argue, there is no stopping them exactly.
Well, I hate for arguments to be dragged on for so long but I don't like being disrespected so I'm going to speak up for myself.
 

osby

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It's true that there were things in Smash hype cycles that fans couldn't predict but let's not forget that there were things we did predict.

We correctly predicted Inkling, Isabelle, Ice Climbers' return, Dark Samus being an echo, Smash 4 Mii costumes becoming playable, box theory, Min Min getting over Spring Man, XB2 and Three Houses content, MHR Spirits, etc.

Saying that Nintendo is a complete enigma and impossible to predict is cherry-picking at best.
 
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SonicSmasher1

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It's true that there were things in Smash hype cycles that fans couldn't predict but let's not forget that there were things we did predict.

We correctly predicted Inkling, Isabelle, Ice Climbers' return, Dark Samus being an echo, Smash 4 Mii costumes becoming playable, box theory, Min Min getting over Spring Man, XB2 and Three Houses content, MHR Spirits, etc.

Saying that Nintendo is a complete enigma and impossible to predict is cherry-picking at best.
Yeah, true. Still, the work for that is done by leakers, not necessarily all fans, especially those without sources.

Not that it matters though. What you said still holds.
 

Wonder Smash

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It's true that there were things in Smash hype cycles that fans couldn't predict but let's not forget that there were things we did predict.

We correctly predicted Inkling, Isabelle, Ice Climbers' return, Dark Samus being an echo, Smash 4 Mii costumes becoming playable, box theory, Min Min getting over Spring Man, XB2 and Three Houses content, MHR Spirits, etc.

Saying that Nintendo is a complete enigma and impossible to predict is cherry-picking at best.
Those are really safe picks, though. They're about as safe saying Ken would be echo of Ryu. lol I'd even throw Kazuya in there seeing how another Namco character was kind of inevitable. But they don't match the truly ridiculous ones people didn't think were possible or likely.
 
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fogbadge

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I'm going to add something so that you can better understand why I say anything is possible and you never know; if you've been paying attention for at least the last few Smash games, you should know that trying to predict things is almost pointless. There's plenty of things that made sense that didn't happen and plenty of things that seemed so ridiculous and crazy but it still ended up happening.

Things that made sense enough that looked like it could have happened but unfortunately didn't:

Koei Tecmo characters - Long collaborative history with Nintendo on various games (Metroid: Other M, Hyrule Warriors, Fire Emblem Warriors) popular long-running series, and characters. Obviously, you'd think this would mean that a Koei Tecmo character would be in the game.

But what ended up happening?

Not a playable character in the roster. Instead, they got an AT from a series they co-owned with Nintendo and nothing from either of their most popular series at all.

Ubisoft characters - Collaborative history with Nintendo (Mario & Rabbids). Rayman and other characters from his series also appear as trophies in Smash Wii U. Obviously, you'd think Rayman seemed destined to be a playable character in the next Smash game.

But what ended up happening?

Not a playable character in the roster. Instead, he became a spirit, the Rabbids became spirits, and Altair (from Ubisoft's other popular series Assassin's Creed) became a Mii costume.

Travis Touchdown - Suda51 has been a supporter for the Nintendo consoles since the Wii with the No More Heroes series. The games have always been made for the Nintendo consoles first before they go to anything else and the idea of Travis being in Smash has been brought up numerous times. The newest game even references the Smash series.

But what ended up happening?

Not a playable character in the roster. Instead, Travis became a Mii costume and he had a spirit event.

Arc System Works characters - Despite not having a collaborative history with Nintendo, it does own some highly influential series (Guilty Gear, Blazblue, Double Dragon, River City) that have been on their consoles. In fact, in the cases of Double Dragon and River City, both series have been on Nintendo consoles for a really long time, as far back as the NES era. And with Sakurai mentioned Smash being a celebration of video games when referring to the game's genre (yes, people, he meant the genre, not series or characters), it would no doubt make sense for him to add the beat'em up genre to the mix.

But what ended up happening?

Not a playable character in the roster. Instead, River City got a spirit event.

Then there are things that sounded too ridiculous to happen but surprisingly did anyway:

Everyone is Here - That's pretty obvious. Literally everyone from the series was back. This meant Snake, a third party character that was missing from the previous game, was back. This meant both Toon Link and Young Link were in the same game. That sounded too good to be true...but it was true.

Microsoft characters - People want Banjo and Kazooie but also know that they're owned by Microsoft, who are competing with Nintendo. They weren't in Smash even back when Rare was owned by Nintendo, so their chances seemed non-existent.

But what ended up happening?

They became playable characters in the first season pass. By the second season pass, they were joined by Steve from Minecraft, another Microsoft series.

Final Fantasy VII content - Even though Cloud was in Smash 4, he came with very little content with him with just 2 FFVII tracks, one stage, and nothing else. That also continued for most of Smash Ultimate. Fans were ready to accept that trying to get more would have been too much for Nintendo to deal with and that Cloud was going to be stuck with just those 2 tracks, one stage, and nothing else.

But what ended up happening?

Additional SE content got added, which included another character from FFVII, another stage from FFVII, and more tracks from FFVII.

Sora - A character that was talked about pretty much all the time but nobody thought had much of a chance of getting in...and for a long time, he didn't.

But what ended up happening?

Look who the final character ended up being in Ultimate. I don't think there's really much else to say.

So this is why I say anything is possible and you never know because that's what Ultimate should have shown everybody by now. Just because some makes sense and sounds logical, doesn't mean that it will happen. Just because some sounds ridiculous and crazy, doesn't mean that it won't happen. So trying to argue stuff like that so seriously is a complete waste of time and energy. Just accept that nobody but Nintendo knows.
I don’t think Nintendo co own the series, just a couple of the games. I also don’t recall anyone saying travis had a big chance, I think most said it was small. As for FF7 stuff I seem to recall people kept saying that SE were being stingy no matter how many spirit events they got, so that one was almost wilful blindness
 

Arcanir

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Anything is possible is a proper counterargument and I just literally explained why; it's the unpredictable nature of this series and what Nintendo has done with it. If it's been shown over and over that just because something sounds logical and sensible, doesn't always mean that it will happen when it comes to this series, You can disagree all you want and you can give reasons but that's all you're doing and that's what people need to recognize.
It is not a proper counterargument because hides behind the idea of possibilities and doesn't do anything to explain why it is possible. If I went into a conversation, brought up a point, and then said to the other party's face 'anything is possible', I'd either be laughed out or get ignored because I'm not truly talking to them.

Even ignoring that, even in the examples you gave the people who argued them from the other side didn't rely on the argument of anything is possible. Take Joker for instance, who started this, whenever those like tehponycorn argued for him it was not because anything is possible, it was 'I believe Nintendo/Sakurai would be interested because A, B, and C'. And they were right, that's why they were considered.

The problem right now is that you're not giving us that A, B, C, it's just it could happen.

We can discuss what we would like to see and what we disagree on but this fight over who's got the better points is very childish.
That's not childish, that's debate and discussion. People are social creatures and generally come to the conclusions they do out of understanding what they feel is the better point. A discussion doesn't evolve if we don't talk it out, it evolves by refine the points we have against each other.
 

Wonder Smash

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I don’t think Nintendo co own the series, just a couple of the games. I also don’t recall anyone saying travis had a big chance, I think most said it was small. As for FF7 stuff I seem to recall people kept saying that SE were being stingy no matter how many spirit events they got, so that one was almost wilful blindness
Nobody really knew Travis's chance but he no doubt had a lot of support every since before Smash 4. Going by that and everything else I mentioned, it would make sense that he would be a playable character in Smash too. The fact he even got a Mii costume and a spirit event says something. He's basically to the Wii what Mega Man and Simon were to the NES. Therefore, it's no surprise that many fans were upset and heartbroken when he was revealed that he was a Mii costume in Ultimate, showing that they did in fact believe he had a good chance at being in.

It is not a proper counterargument because hides behind the idea of possibilities and doesn't do anything to explain why it is possible. If I went into a conversation, brought up a point, and then said to the other party's face 'anything is possible', I'd either be laughed out or get ignored because I'm not truly talking to them.
It is a proper counterargument when what you're talking has shown to do so many unpredictable things in the past, as I just explained in my previous post.

Even ignoring that, even in the examples you gave the people who argued them from the other side didn't rely on the argument of anything is possible. Take Joker for instance, who started this, whenever those like tehponycorn argued for him it was not because anything is possible, it was 'I believe Nintendo/Sakurai would be interested because A, B, and C'. And they were right, that's why they were considered.

The problem right now is that you're not giving us that A, B, C, it's just it could happen.
Because those A, B, and C are based on what again?

That's not childish, that's debate and discussion. People are social creatures and generally come to the conclusions they do out of understanding what they feel is the better point. A discussion doesn't evolve if we don't talk it out, it evolves by refine the points we have against each other.
No, it is definitely childish at this point. You can disagree and give reasons all you want but you don't force your views on others, especially when it's all just one big speculation in the first place. That's why I say it's anything is possible. And if you can't say for sure that Joker is coming back, if you can't say his chances are high or even low, then you can't really argue against that. It's all pointless, unless you just want to waste your time.
 
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osby

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Those are really safe picks, though. I'd even throw Kazuya in there seeing how another Namco character was kind of inevitable. But they don't match the truly ridiculous ones people didn't think were possible or likely.
And?

They are safe picks because there was a lot of evidence in their favor. You know, like how people arguing against you point out a lot of evidence in favor of their arguments. This, in turn, proves the exact opposite thing you're claiming: the idea that everything is equally possible in the lack of concrete proof.

If that was true, we wouldn't need things like probability mathematics, economic statistics, and even quantum mechanics (yes, I'm going there from a silly video game debate, sue me).
 

Wonder Smash

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And?

They are safe picks because there was a lot of evidence in their favor. You know, like how people arguing against you point out a lot of evidence in favor of their arguments. This, in turn, proves the exact opposite thing you're claiming: the idea that everything is equally possible in the lack of concrete proof.
Except there...aren't any evidence, You talk about concrete proof but there isn't really any concrete proof from the people who have been arguing against me. Besides, I thought this is just about disagreements over opinions. Now we're talking about proof? See what I'm saying?

You know, now I'm curious, was it ever said why Joker was added to Ultimate?
 
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SonicSmasher1

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fogbadge

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He's basically to the Wii what Mega Man and Simon were to the NES.
ok that is defiantly an exaggeration

Okay, this got old back when it first started. I'M CHANGING TOPICS AND NONE OF YOU CAN STOP ME!


We're talking Smash reps from Latin America and/or Brazil now.
as in characters from there of from games made there?
 

SonicSmasher1

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From games made there. Spice things up a bit.
I am sure you mean Nintendo characters from Latin America who could be in Smash.

Thing is, American Nintendo characters like Tin Star and Mike Jones have not gotten in to Smash yet. Not against the Latin American characters getting in, but just wanted to say that.
 

Wonder Smash

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ok that is defiantly an exaggeration
It's not. If Mega Man and Simon can be seen as NES era characters, then Travis can be seen as a Wii era character. He got his start on a Nintendo console just like they did and he's been associated with them every since.
 
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chocolatejr9

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I am sure you mean Nintendo characters from Latin America who could be in Smash.

Thing is, American Nintendo characters like Tin Star and Mike Jones have not gotten in to Smash yet. Not against the Latin American characters getting in, but just wanted to say that.
Actually, I meant in general, not just Nintendo.
 

fogbadge

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It's not. If Mega Man and Simon can be seen as NES era characters, then Travis can be seen as a Wii era character. He got his start on a Nintendo console just like they did and he's been associated with them every since.
so did 100s if other series like Layton and ace attorney. But calling NMH an equivalent to mega man and castlevania, two giants of gaming just isn’t fair to it
 

HyperSomari64

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It's not. If Mega Man and Simon can be seen as NES era characters, then Travis can be seen as a Wii era character. He got his start on a Nintendo console just like they did and he's been associated with them every since.
Is Senran Kagura ths but in the 3DS?
 

Wonder Smash

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so did 100s if other series like Layton and ace attorney. But calling NMH an equivalent to mega man and castlevania, two giants of gaming just isn’t fair to it
You mean it's not fair to point out how it's a third party series that started on Nintendo consoles like they did?

Is Senran Kagura ths but in the 3DS?
Has it been associated with Nintendo consoles every since?
 
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Idon

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You mean it's not fair to point out how it's a third party series that started on Nintendo consoles like they did?
People aren't taking issue with that. They're taking issue with the fact that the statement made is that NMH is the Megaman/Castlevania to the Wii, which inflates its importance and popularity.
 

fogbadge

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You mean it's not fair to point out how it's a third party series that started on Nintendo consoles like they did?
what idon said. The comparison simply cause they debuted on consoles by the same company isn’t fair. Mega man and castlevania are mega popular genre definers which nmh is not
 

Wonder Smash

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People aren't taking issue with that. They're taking issue with the fact that the statement made is that NMH is the Megaman/Castlevania to the Wii, which inflates its importance and popularity.
what idon said. The comparison simply cause they debuted on consoles by the same company isn’t fair. Mega man and castlevania are mega popular genre definers which nmh is not
We're not comparing popularity and importance here. I'm talking about where the series started and what they're associated with, which were Nintendo consoles

Wish you people stop missing the point.
 
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Diddy Kong

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No matter how "ridiculous" or "ludicrous" it sounds, it's still not out of the possibility that it could happen and if it does happen, I sure won't be complaining about it. Hence why I said I don't mind.

I think it's ridiculous that a Koei Tecmo character was missing in the roster, despite their long collaborative history with Nintendo but it is what it is.
Koei Tecmo or specifically Ryu Hayabusa seems to be quite one of the bigger omissions, I feel the same way about Monster Hunter. Both make more sense than Terry to me. Even though fighting game characters translate extremely smoothly into Smash, and I'd want more of them for that reason.
 

fogbadge

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We're not comparing popularity and importance here. I'm talking about where the series started and what they're associated with, which were Nintendo consoles

Wish you people stop missing the point.
but that is true of so many series so why stop there?
 
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