Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[fogbadge]

as an outsider to both series it looked to me like putting in joker first was the same as putting cloud in first

 

[Quillion]

as an outsider to both series it looked to me like putting in joker first was the same as putting cloud in first

And at least Persona had at least some things from the other games in its series. Final Fantasy only has a few spirits from outside 7, and those are based on their appearances in 7 or the remake.

 

[osby]

Man, I just want to enjoy both SMT and Persona without someone yelling at me for it.

A more popular franchise having more collaborations doesn't mean anyone is trying to be lazy or mean, it's just common sense. It's like getting mad every time Mario gets something DKC doesn't because it's a Donkey Kong spin-off.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Jokes on you, am actually sort of mad Donkey Kong doesn't even get half the attention Mario gets despite both IPs starting at the same exact time.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Smash Community Character Corral

For this section of the forum, please answer the questions based on character likelyhood. A ranking of 1 would be like "this has almost no chance of actually happening", while a ranking of 10 would be "this is almost guaranteed to show up in the next game". If you are not familiar with a...

forms.gle

Poll is doing pretty well, starting my write up and analysis for the article from the bottom up. I also am doing some individual analysis for each series broadly getting a character as well. I debated having a broad category for just X series newcomer, but I decided that it would be more fun for everyone if they say broadly what people wanted character wise.

IDK when the article will be done, but I already have the polls for the next section close to complete. It will have the following series in it: Zelda, Metroid, Star Fox, Kirby. If you have any particular requests lmk, but odds are I have a good chunk of the big requests for those.

 

[Pink Yoshi]

I know everyone talks about having Bandana Dee in Smash, but honestly, Susie and Fecto Elfilis far outrank him for me, both as Kirby characters and as Smash candidates

 

[fogbadge]

I know everyone talks about having Bandana Dee in Smash, but honestly, Susie and Fecto Elfilis far outrank him for me, both as Kirby characters and as Smash candidates

i can understand that i used to want gooey the most. now i want bandana the most but that's besides the point

 

[Sid-cada]

I know everyone talks about having Bandana Dee in Smash, but honestly, Susie and Fecto Elfilis far outrank him for me, both as Kirby characters and as Smash candidates

Do you want my honest opinion on who's going to get in if it isn't Bandanna Dee? It's probably going to be... a Waddle Dee.

Look at any promotion, collaboration, or merchandise between Kirby and anything else, and the most likely character to appear next to Kirby himself is a Waddle Dee. In fact, they're more likely to appear than Meta Knight and Dedede.

In fact, the current director of the series knew that Waddle Dees had potential as characters, so he invented Bandana Dee to act as a "representative."

The only non-Waddle Dee characters I see making is either Magolor due to how popular and reoccurring he is, but he's just not quite as prominent as Waddle Dees, and probably hampered by the fact that a true floating character doesn't seem to be in the cards (Just look at how grounded Jr. is).

Don't get me wrong, I'd like Magolor or Dark Matter to join too. It's just to me, Dee should come first.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Honestly if not BWD, a three in one fighter combination of Rick/Kine/Coo would be most ideal to me.

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

Honestly if not BWD, a three in one fighter combination of Rick/Kine/Coo would be most ideal to me.

I like that idea. Also, how about something similar for Rambi, Squawks and Enguarde from the Donkey Kong Country games. Would that work?

 

[Perkilator]

Honestly if not BWD, a three in one fighter combination of Rick/Kine/Coo would be most ideal to me.

I thought of something similar, but for three of SNK's most popular characters.

 

[Quillion]

TBH, it feels like BWD is just an example of Nintendo's major franchises making the least interesting characters recurring lately. Others being Captain Toad and Beedle.

Not that I particularly care about any of them getting into Smash either way at this point, but it's quite telling how Beedle has no Smash support that this idea of "recurring mainline character" deserving to be in Smash can be arbitrary.

 

[dream1ng]

I know everyone talks about having Bandana Dee in Smash, but honestly, Susie and Fecto Elfilis far outrank him for me, both as Kirby characters and as Smash candidates

BWD support is a result of the character recurring and fitting into the fourth role by default. If he didn't show up so regularly, and one of the other, more innately popular characters like Susie, Marx or Magolor actually recurred, I think BWD's demand would profoundly suffer.

 

[SPEN18]

it's quite telling how Beedle has no Smash support that this idea of "recurring mainline character" deserving to be in Smash can be arbitrary.

While being recurring and being mainline are both big boons for a character, the role importance of the character matters a lot, too. Having a lot of mainline appearances only goes so far when a character doesn't do much of note in any of them. Playing a major role (highly preferably, a starring role) in your game(s) of origin is one of the biggest qualifying factors.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

can i just say that being in smash speculation so wrong has given me an irrational hatred for the word ''representation''?

also, i don't understand why people feel the need to hardcap kirby at four characters. i mean, i know it's a meme but fire emblem can get away with having 700 billion....

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

While being recurring and being mainline are both big boons for a character, the role importance of the character matters a lot, too. Having a lot of mainline appearances only goes so far when a character doesn't do much of note in any of them. Playing a major role (highly preferably, a starring role) in your game(s) of origin is one of the biggest qualifying factors.

Plus Impa's also a recurring character in the series that (even while inconsistently portrayed) has more to work with in regards to being a Smash fighter.

 

[dream1ng]

can i just say that being in smash speculation so wrong has given me an irrational hatred for the word ''representation''?

also, i don't understand why people feel the need to hardcap kirby at four characters. i mean, i know it's a meme but fire emblem can get away with having 700 billion....

It's not handicapping Kirby at four, it's that it doesn't make sense to discuss the fifth, sixth, etc. until we actually get a fourth.

 

[HyperSomari64]

I remember an ad on TikTok about some Angry Birds spin-off, and you need to vote which design will suit the best.
One of which was a female human Red (two to be specific). I had a mental delirium after seeing them, and i didn't want to vote any of them.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I remember an ad on TikTok about some Angry Birds spin-off, and you need to vote which design will suit the best.
One of which was a female human Red (two to be specific). I had a mental delirium after seeing them, and i didn't want to vote any of them.

That good and all, but... what does that have to do with Smash?

 

[HyperSomari64]

That good and all, but... what does that have to do with Smash?

That game's name is "Angryverse Brawl", and it's clearly going to be a platform fighter.

 

[Laniv]

Honestly if not BWD, a three in one fighter combination of Rick/Kine/Coo would be most ideal to me.

I like that idea. Also, how about something similar for Rambi, Squawks and Enguarde from the Donkey Kong Country games. Would that work?

I thought of something similar, but for three of SNK's most popular characters.

I've always thought that a Bowser's Minions/Koopa Troop team could make a cool fighter.

 

[Quillion]

While being recurring and being mainline are both big boons for a character, the role importance of the character matters a lot, too. Having a lot of mainline appearances only goes so far when a character doesn't do much of note in any of them. Playing a major role (highly preferably, a starring role) in your game(s) of origin is one of the biggest qualifying factors.

That's the thing: both Captain Toad and Bandana Dee don't do much of note in their recurring mainline appearances.

Probably because the main casts of each major Nintendo franchise have reached a good size that any more would be overkill.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

It's not handicapping Kirby at four, it's that it doesn't make sense to discuss the fifth, sixth, etc. until we actually get a fourth.

Sure it does. The franchise has gotten more than one character in one game before.

 

[Quillion]

Sure it does. The franchise has gotten more than one character in one game before.

Thing is, Kirby doesn't have much prominent recurring characters outside Kirby, Meta Knight, Dedede, and now Bandana Dee.

And before you say the Fire Emblem argument, Fire Emblem revolves around its one-shots while Kirby doesn't.

This is why I hope all franchises in Smash will be subject to "wait and see" moving forward rather than bringing in freah faces immediately.

 

[dream1ng]

Sure it does. The franchise has gotten more than one character in one game before.

No, it doesn't, because even when that happened people were talking about who would be the second Kirby character, MK or Dedede. And then after that, they started talking about the possibility of the third. It's not a cap, it's people taking things in a linear, logical fashion and not putting the cart before the horse.

Going in with the expectation of two, clones aside, is wildly presumptous given how uncommon it is, and how inconsistent the series to whom it happens is. Even for series like Mario or Pokemon, it's a big swing.

Especially with a series like Kirby, where whoever the fifth character would be, isn't a likely character. Not having the fourth yet means the popularity is bottlenecked at BWD, and all the others are, DLC aside, one-offs - many of whom from non-Sakurai games. You kinda need BWD to overcome his own issues just so popularity can disseminate downwards to someone else, otherwise one-offs really aren't going to have a good chance. Popularity hasn't even been enough for BWD.

This isn't the same as getting Dedede and MK, who are major, recurring, highly demanded Sakurai-created characters in a then one-fighter series.

 

[fogbadge]

TBH, it feels like BWD is just an example of Nintendo's major franchises making the least interesting characters recurring lately. Others being Captain Toad and Beedle.

Not that I particularly care about any of them getting into Smash either way at this point, but it's quite telling how Beedle has no Smash support that this idea of "recurring mainline character" deserving to be in Smash can be arbitrary.

well bandana is a main character in a lot of his appearances and cap has had his own game. you don't get beedle support cause he's still a minor character in all his appearances so support tends to go the major recurring characters like impa

what an absurdly unfair comparison you’ve made

 

[Sucumbio]

I dunno, personally I've always thought BWD should be playable but that Sakurai didn't want to for whatever reason. I hope one day he changes his mind. He's not uninteresting to me or anything.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

No, it doesn't, because even when that happened people were talking about who would be the second Kirby character, MK or Dedede. And then after that, they started talking about the possibility of the third. It's not a cap, it's people taking things in a linear, logical fashion and not putting the cart before the horse.

Going in with the expectation of two, clones aside, is wildly presumptous given how uncommon it is, and how inconsistent the series to whom it happens is. Even for series like Mario or Pokemon, it's a big swing.

Especially with a series like Kirby, where whoever the fifth character would be, isn't a likely character. Not having the fourth yet means the popularity is bottlenecked at BWD, and all the others are, DLC aside, one-offs - many of whom from non-Sakurai games. You kinda need BWD to overcome his own issues just so popularity can disseminate downwards to someone else, otherwise one-offs really aren't going to have a good chance. Popularity hasn't even been enough for BWD.

This isn't the same as getting Dedede and MK, who are major, recurring, highly demanded Sakurai-created characters in a then one-fighter series.

Its largely the same thing with Donkey Kong/Country; Cranky, Funky, and DK Jr all make for interesting speculation but Dixie feels so obvious for the 4th character slot that discussion about others is going to be facing an unspoken uphill battle.

 

[Quillion]

well bandana is a main character in a lot of his appearances and cap has had his own game. you don't get beedle support cause he's still a minor character in all his appearances so support tends to go the major recurring characters like impa

what an absurdly unfair comparison you’ve made

Fair enough counter. Still, I wish Nintendo would make more recent recurring characters more interesting.

 

[Opossum]

Captain Toad and Bandana Waddle Dee having support while Beedle doesn't isn't a double standard. The standard is pretty clear: they're all recurring, but Beedle is the only one that's purely an NPC. Captain Toad didn't get his support from his Galaxy role, after all.

No, it doesn't, because even when that happened people were talking about who would be the second Kirby character, MK or Dedede. And then after that, they started talking about the possibility of the third. It's not a cap, it's people taking things in a linear, logical fashion and not putting the cart before the horse.

Going in with the expectation of two, clones aside, is wildly presumptous given how uncommon it is, and how inconsistent the series to whom it happens is. Even for series like Mario or Pokemon, it's a big swing.

Especially with a series like Kirby, where whoever the fifth character would be, isn't a likely character. Not having the fourth yet means the popularity is bottlenecked at BWD, and all the others are, DLC aside, one-offs - many of whom from non-Sakurai games. You kinda need BWD to overcome his own issues just so popularity can disseminate downwards to someone else, otherwise one-offs really aren't going to have a good chance. Popularity hasn't even been enough for BWD.

This isn't the same as getting Dedede and MK, who are major, recurring, highly demanded Sakurai-created characters in a then one-fighter series.

In absolute fairness, there is one other Kirby character whose popularity isn't bottlenecked by Bandana Waddle Dee wholesale, and that's Magolor, particularly in Japan. He's still beneath Dee, of course, but it's still a very prominent showing. It was closer to the difference in support between, say, K. Rool and Dixie in the west than, say, the difference between Krystal and either Peppy or Slippy, where the fourth choice, if any, was very clear cut.

 

[smashkirby]

Do you want my honest opinion on who's going to get in if it isn't Bandanna Dee? It's probably going to be... a Waddle Dee.

Look at any promotion, collaboration, or merchandise between Kirby and anything else, and the most likely character to appear next to Kirby himself is a Waddle Dee. In fact, they're more likely to appear than Meta Knight and Dedede.

In fact, the current director of the series knew that Waddle Dees had potential as characters, so he invented Bandana Dee to act as a "representative."

The only non-Waddle Dee characters I see making is either Magolor due to how popular and reoccurring he is, but he's just not quite as prominent as Waddle Dees, and probably hampered by the fact that a true floating character doesn't seem to be in the cards (Just look at how grounded Jr. is).

Don't get me wrong, I'd like Magolor or Dark Matter to join too. It's just to me, Dee should come first.

No joke, I was legit thinking about this concept just yesterday! To be more precise, one potential moveset I see Bandana Waddle Dee using is one where he sort of serves as Smash Bros.' answer to Servbot in Marvel vs. Capcom 2, where he has Waddle Dees assist him in various attacks.

 

[dream1ng]

In absolute fairness, there is one other Kirby character whose popularity isn't bottlenecked by Bandana Waddle Dee wholesale, and that's Magolor, particularly in Japan. He's still beneath Dee, of course, but it's still a very prominent showing. It was closer to the difference in support between, say, K. Rool and Dixie in the west than, say, the difference between Krystal and either Peppy or Slippy, where the fourth choice, if any, was very clear cut.

I meant popularity that reaches the level where it'll be consequential. Popularity where it would make sense to actually expect two additions, justifying discussion of the fifth character. Magolor's popularity is still bottlenecked by BWD, insofar as BWD siphons off enough demand from the rest of the series that no one else has a sufficient amount to leverage for inclusion.

Maybe it'd be different if Magolor was a Sakurai creation, and Sakurai could divert around BWD to perpetuate his selective treatment of the series, but that's not the situation either. And frankly that's still an either or situation anyway, not a both BWD and Magolor situation.

 

[Quillion]

Captain Toad and Bandana Waddle Dee having support while Beedle doesn't isn't a double standard. The standard is pretty clear: they're all recurring, but Beedle is the only one that's purely an NPC. Captain Toad didn't get his support from his Galaxy role, after all.

Touché, but still: none of those three are spectacular characters like Dedede or even (recently) Pauline.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Touché, but still: none of those three are spectacular characters like Dedede or even (recently) Pauline.

Define spectacular.

Cause I think Bandana Waddle Dee is the best Kirby character made in ages.

Your argument is entirely subjective. You gotta support things like this with more than opinions.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The only real "weakness" with BWD is that he's the kind of character whose depth and potential isn't really obvious unless you're a fan of the franchise. Like Dixie there's loads of really interesting dynamics/elements to utilize from their respective home series that that just don't spring to mind as much for those more casually familiar with them.

 

[smashkirby]

Hey, guys. I'm actually quite curious now... In the event that B.W.D. DOES somehow end up becoming Smash's answer to MvC2's Servbot (where other species of Waddle Dees would make up a portion of B.W.D.'s moveset, assisting him with attacks and whatnot), do you all think that works for him, or would it come off as a 'disservice' to the little guy?

 

[dream1ng]

Everybody has their own tastes, but were it not for BWD being put in the position of importance, such a character could and would be easily forgotten as a background or insignificant opponent. Sort of like when he was just some minor character. It is a Waddle Dee with a bandana, and sometimes a spear.

A lot of even the minibosses are more unique than that, let alone the per-game plot-relevant characters.

It's sort of like a reverse Geno situation, wherein BWD has been put in a position of great relevance within the series, but as an actual character, many people aren't big on him for his... uninspired features, even down to the name. While Geno really has almost no actual relevance in the macro Mario universe, but because of the character himself, got very popular.

 

[Idon]

Hey, guys. I'm actually quite curious now... In the event that B.W.D. DOES somehow end up becoming Smash's answer to MvC2's Servbot (where other species of Waddle Dees would make up a portion of B.W.D.'s moveset, assisting him with attacks and whatnot), do you all think that works for him, or would it come off as a 'disservice' to the little guy?

I would say that any moveset that involves summoning other people or things to do their work for them, inherently places less value on the main character (unless their commanding/leadership abilities are core to their character).

Smash has very few moves to work with in comparison to many fighting games so it's very rare that they ever opt for a pure "Okay guy, do this for me" and usually there's some sort of symbiotic nature to those attacks (Olimar swinging Pikmin like weapons, Luma and Arsene syncing their attacks to their host, etc).

As for BWD's case, I'm not exactly a Kirby fan, but it doesn't seem like it has close ties to any other creatures to the point that they'd be shown off in its moveset, or at least, close ties outside of the main quartet he features in.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think people are really underselling how popular and well liked BWD is within the Kirby fanbase. He isn't simply tolerated. He's beloved. He is one of the most popular characters in the fanbase.

This is "Smash armchair speculator" behavior. We had people arguing that Pokemon fans didn't like Lucario before he was included in Smash 4. Anyone in the Pokemon community knows this is an insane claim. We had people arguing Chrom, Byleth and Roy aren't really popular in the Fire Emblem fanbase, when all of those characters are literal popularity contest winners.

Unfamiliarity with the franchise's fanbase leads Smash speculators to make sweeping assumptions about character popularity and how its formed.

People don't tend to like things just because they're put in new games. If you honestly haven't a clue why something is popular, actually look into the fanbase and ask why something is popular.

Kirby fans have repeatedly said they like BWD because he's adorable, he has an underdog element, he has unique role in a genuine friend and partner for Kirby, etc. That information is out there.

 

[SPEN18]

Everyone sleeping on Marx here, I guess.

--

That's the thing: both Captain Toad and Bandana Dee don't do much of note in their recurring mainline appearances.

And indeed not doing much of note was a big part of why I was a longtime Dee detractor. For quite a while, his most important appearance IMO was Return to Dreamland, and in that game his function was roughly on par with like the 4th party member in an RPG. But now he has seemingly been elevated to more of a Luigi-like "second player" status; with FL and the continued relevance/marketing he is getting, he is in a much better spot than he was when his popularity first started burgeoning. I'm still more of a Marx guy by nature, but Dee is ok by me now.

With Captain Toad, it is a fair point that he is a minor character in mainline Mario. But there is also his solo game to consider, and probably more importantly, keep in mind that there is a lot of conflation with support for Toads in general. The Captain shares much of his likeness with the vanilla Toad, and I think a lot of fans are willing to give the Captain credit in the importance and iconicness departments simply for being a Toad, albeit with different moveset options that may appeal more or less to a given person. Though personally, I prefer the vanilla Toad for being more important and long-running in the Mario series as a whole, mainline or spinoff.