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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

chocolatejr9

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I don't even know why people think Square is going to be bought up.

Square isn't doing great but it's not dying in a hole.
I think it's a side effect of the current state of things. Ever since companies like Microsoft and Epic Games began flexing their infinite money, people have become convinced that companies like Nintendo and ESPECIALLY Sony have to do SOMETHING to keep up. And yeah, maybe there's some truth to that, but IMO, that won't be an issue until later down the road.
 

dream1ng

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They have no desire to get into a buyout race because they know very well it's not about the IPs or company, it's about the people making the games. And having the IPs mean little if they don't have anybody who wants to develop for them.

Remember Sony buying Bungie? There were rumours that Sony paid the developers extra to stay after the buyout, implying that some of the Bungie developers were not happy with the buyout or didn't want to develop for Sony only.

Nintendo knows full well that the developers are the real meat. The developers are the reasoning for why a game or IP is good and having the IP means nothing if the developers aren't okay with developing for Nintendo only. Monolith Soft and Next Level Games are good with developing for Nintendo only. That's why Nintendo bought them. Square does not develop for Nintendo only, so not all of their developers are going to be open to the idea of developing for Nintendo only.
It's not as simple as people vs. IP being the right answer. Of course you need talented people to establish the products as worthwhile, but this IP race that's happening in so many mediums now isn't without reason. It's not Nintendo's strategy, but making yourself the exclusive provider of popular franchises does indeed sway people. Of course Microsoft has to keep the trinity of CoD devs well staffed, but people are going to jump to that platform now just because that will be the place to play CoD going forward. Actually, that is literally Nintendo's whole methodology, and the reason we can't get things like Samus in Fortnite.

It's not mutually exclusive that acquiring an IP means sacrificing talent en masse. It's not one or the other. It's not like companies are totally purged when acquired. If Sony paid Bungie devs extra to stay, that's probably because Bungie quite famously didn't want to be owned by a parent company, but not all companies are like that. More over, if that did transpire, Sony clearly retained both the employees and the IP, making it a successful example of having both.

You think that if Nintendo acquires a company, the employees are going to be like "Nintendo sux, Playstation rulez!" and jump ship? On what grounds? Nintendo seems like a very stable and reliable employer, and famously attracts devs from other companies to it, along with having a very high retention rate, even for Japan. You think, despite the steady paycheck, most devs want to hop back into the job market because their output no longer touches other platforms? Because instead of working for a big company, they now work for a very big company? It's mostly high-level staff who would suffer redundancies, but they are also the ones likely to get paid out from the acquisition, and some may even get absorbed into higher level positions within the parent company.

I mean we all know how much Disney has suffered since buying Marvel and Star Wars. You think they bought Fox because they wanted that Murdoch association, or maybe because they wanted Avatar, X-Men, The Simpsons, etc. With these properties come huge licensing opportunities that you don't even need the in-house manpower to independently facilitate, since they can be outsourced. Often the majority of the profit comes from merchandising.

Nintendo just doesn't work this way, and that's fine if you have the resources, capital, library and confidence to let the industry consolidate around you and you remain self-sufficient. Nintendo probably won't suffer all that much from abstaining, but it's not like they wouldn't benefit from making acquisitions either.

It is possible to get the middle of the venn diagram. But even without that, each side has its value.
 
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DemifiendEnjoyer

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with the part about them being most likely or how SE does things?
I dont think its gonna be a third 7 character

Honestly I think a good idea for how to represent the Final Fantasy series as a whole would be.....
Goblin
It would represent mainly the MMO's by using the 13/14 Goblin design mainly, but other versions would appear as alternate costumes
the FF1,FF7,FF Tactics versions specifically
Other Final Fantasy creatures like Chocobo,Moogle, and Cactuar will appear in the moveset
The stage would be based on the Dissidia series and include cameos from various characters
 
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SPEN18

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And if SMRPG was owned by Nintendo, it would more easily show up in the back catalogue and Geno would probably be playable
Would he really be playable, though? I mean, it would be more likely than it is now, but rights issues aside Geno is still a really small fish. The things people are saying about Geno having to compete with other Mario reps and such would still hold. At the end of the day it's a hypothetical, but the rights issues are far from the only issue with Geno.
 
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Megadoomer

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Honestly I think a good idea for how to represent the Final Fantasy series as a whole would be.....
Goblin
It would represent mainly the MMO's by using the 13/14 Goblin design mainly, but other versions would appear as alternate costumes
the FF1,FF7,FF Tactics versions specifically
Other Final Fantasy creatures like Chocobo,Moogle, and Cactuar will appear in the moveset
The stage would be based on the Dissidia series and include cameos from various characters
Just a heads up that, if you want to add more details to your post, you should edit it in rather than quoting yourself and double posting.

(also, if you're going to represent Final Fantasy as a whole, then why not go with one of the recognizable classes like Black Mage or Red Mage? Having a Goblin represent Final Fantasy would be like adding a second Sonic character only for it to be Moto Bug instead of Tails, Knuckles, Eggman, Shadow, Amy, Metal Sonic, Big, etc.)
 
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Ivander

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I think it's a side effect of the current state of things. Ever since companies like Microsoft and Epic Games began flexing their infinite money, people have become convinced that companies like Nintendo and ESPECIALLY Sony have to do SOMETHING to keep up. And yeah, maybe there's some truth to that, but IMO, that won't be an issue until later down the road.
That and probably that one rumor about Sony wanting to buy Square from one of Eidos' higher-ups. But yeah, Activision and Bungie being bought really got people in a "heat of the moment" scenario where they are just wondering who's going to be bought next, and some people pointing out the values of each company and which one could be bought by a higher money company, hence why Capcom, Sega, Konami and Square tend to be popular look-ats.
It's not as simple as people vs. IP being the right answer. Of course you need talented people to establish the products as worthwhile, but this IP race that's happening in so many mediums now isn't without reason. It's not Nintendo's strategy, but making yourself the exclusive provider of popular franchises does indeed sway people. Of course Microsoft has to keep the trinity of CoD devs well staffed, but people are going to jump to that platform now just because that will be the place to play CoD going forward. That's actually literally Nintendo's whole methodology, and the reason we can't get things like Samus in Fortnite.

It's not mutually exclusive that acquiring an IP means sacrificing talent en masse. It's not one or the other. It's not like companies are totally purged when acquired. If Sony paid Bungie devs extra to stay, that's probably because Bungie quite famously didn't want to be owned by a parent company, but not all companies are like that. More over, if that did transpire, Sony clearly retained both the employees and the IP, making it a successful example of having both.

You think that if Nintendo acquires a company, the employees are going to be like "Nintendo sux, Playstation rulez!" and jump ship? On what grounds? Nintendo seems like a very stable and reliable employer, and famously attracts devs from other companies to it, along with having a very high retention rate, even for Japan. You think, despite the steady paycheck, most devs want to hop back into the job market because their output no longer touches other platforms? Because instead of working for a big company, they now work for a very big company? It's mostly high-level staff who would suffer redundancies, but they are also the ones likely to get paid out from the acquisition, and some may even get absorbed into higher level positions within the parent company.
Having popular IPs means nothing if:
A: You don't have enough people to work on them in general, especially if some of them do leave. Nintendo already has most of their developers on other projects. They aren't suddenly just going to be moved to different projects just because they suddenly have access to new IPs that don't have people developing for them.
B: You don't have developers who know how to work and develop for those IPs or want to develop for those IPs. A Big Square IP on Nintendo means nothing if there's no one who wants to develop it or if Nintendo themselves aren't confident in another team wanting to develop for it. Sacrificing most, if not almost, all of the talent for an IP would more than likely prevent the IP from starting back up, something which fans and gamers want to certainly avoid.

And Employees are still people and whether they want to work for a company or not is still their decision. To some, what they want to develop and what-for is more important than money. If they don't want to develop for Nintendo only, that's their decision.
Or maybe they find it difficult to develop for a Nintendo system or find it easier to develop for a different console or system. And it's easy to understand why somebody would develop for something they have experience with than having to start getting used to a different system they have no experience developing for. Nintendo may be pretty open to letting some of their companies do what they want to do like Monolith, but that doesn't mean some employees would just suddenly be okay developing for them if their company gets bought by them, whether it'd be they have more experience with developing for other systems or they don't want to develop solely for Nintendo only.
 

DemifiendEnjoyer

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Just a heads up that, if you want to add more details to your post, you should edit it in rather than quoting yourself and double posting.

(also, if you're going to represent Final Fantasy as a whole, then why not go with one of the recognizable classes like Black Mage or Red Mage? Having a Goblin represent Final Fantasy would be like adding a second Sonic character only for it to be Moto Bug instead of Tails, Knuckles, Eggman, Shadow, Amy, Metal Sonic, Big, etc.)
Its a different situation than the Sonic series though, Sonic has a core cast, at least some of the same characters are there every entry, Final Fantasy is different because the things that stay the same are general concepts like the Goblin or the Mages, rather than specific characters or settings.
So while a Moto Bug would do a poor job representing the Sonic series as a whole, A Goblin would actually make sense.
As for why I chose Goblin over the Mage's and other Final Fantasy Creatures. Its because It would be cool to have more little Enemies like Piranha Plant included.
The Black Mage is one I have thought about before, with it being Vivi as the main fighter and a generic Black Mage as an alternate, and that would be a good way to represent Final Fantasy as well.
Also thank you for the advice.
 
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dream1ng

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I don't even know why people think Square is going to be bought up.

Square isn't doing great but it's not dying in a hole.
Companies don't have to be dying to be acquired. Bethesda and Bungie certainly weren't dying. Sometimes they are just made an offer they can't refuse.



Maybe Sony floats a tantalizing deal because they're scared that Microsoft is eating too much of the pie.

Others cash out at peaks of profitability, when the shareholders are subject to the largest payouts, like Rare or NLG.
 

dream1ng

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Having popular IPs means nothing if:
A: You don't have enough people to work on them in general, especially if some of them do leave. Nintendo already has most of their developers on other projects. They aren't suddenly just going to be moved to different projects just because they suddenly have access to new IPs that don't have people developing for them.
B: You don't have developers who know how to work and develop for those IPs or want to develop for those IPs. A Big Square IP on Nintendo means nothing if there's no one who wants to develop it or if Nintendo themselves aren't confident in another team wanting to develop for it. Sacrificing most, if not almost, all of the talent for an IP would more than likely prevent the IP from starting back up, something which fans and gamers want to certainly avoid.

And Employees are still people and whether they want to work for a company or not is still their decision. To some, what they want to develop and what-for is more important than money. If they don't want to develop for Nintendo only, that's their decision.
I think you're catastrophizing acquisitions. How many acquisitions have been made where companies lose the majority of the workforce they just obtained? I don't think that happened once with Microsoft, not even with Rare, and they've been eating companies like tic-tacs.

The dichotomy of "buying for manpower" or "buying for IP and thus losing the employees" doesn't even make sense as the two options, those aren't even opposites of each other. When a company is bought for the workforce, what makes that purchase different in terms of employee retention than the other? They could just leave as well. The difference of owning an IP doesn't change that.

The factor you're hinging dissolution/retention on isn't even directly related to this... whether they own an IP?

"We bought x and it all went smoothly. But then we tried to buy y and everyone left!"
"Well, do they own IP?"
"Yeah, a few"
"Well, there's your problem"

"I don't want to work for Nintendo, but our dev never owned IP, so I guess I won't quit."

Like, it doesn't even make sense. They're not connected.

You seem to be treating this as if they were buying Konami or something, where they get a bunch of IP, but they barely absorb anyone to actually work on them. Buying a competent company like Capcom or Square or Bamco would come with all the designated teams as well. You wouldn't need to form teams for them. You could reorganize them... but if their system already works, no real need to fix it. Look at how Sega barely touched Atlus.

When MS bought Bethesda, they didn't have to create teams for Doom or Fallout or ES, those already exist. And losing so many employees those teams fall apart is completely unfounded, it clearly didn't happen. What, are all the Square employees going to revolt because Sony now owns their company?

This is clearly fearmongering. Yeah, there probably will be turnaround after an acquisition, but people leaving in droves because they don't want to work for Nintendo? Did that happen with Sony? Microsoft? Embracer? Tencent? ****ing Disney? Not really. Not to the extent the acquired dev collapsed and necessitated the parent company to completely rebuild it.

But it's going to happen to... Nintendo? The Japanese market leader and presumable pretty good employer? Are they all team Sonic?

Or maybe they find it difficult to develop for a Nintendo system or find it easier to develop for a different console or system. And it's easy to understand why somebody would develop for something they have experience with than having to start getting used to a different system they have no experience developing for. Nintendo may be pretty open to letting some of their companies do what they want to do like Monolith, but that doesn't mean some employees would just suddenly be okay developing for them if their company gets bought by them, whether it'd be they have more experience with developing for other systems or they don't want to develop solely for Nintendo only.
Ok, so... the devs find it so difficult to decipher Switch architecture (despite Nintendo granting them proprietary dev tools now that they're subsidiaries) that, instead of familiarizing themselves (as is their job), enough give up that it depletes the whole studio? Seriously? This isn't porting GTA6 to Switch, this would be an experienced dev creating native Switch software with Nintendo's help and tools. Even tiny, relatively inexperienced indies can navigate the system.

But so many people can't figure out that even the art department leaves.

"I heard Capcom fell apart"
"Oh, how'd that happen"
"They tried to make a Switch game"

You think if a current division of, like, Square, gets tasked making a Switch game now... they would just quit? You think if a programmer quits then applies at another company and says they refuse to learn the architecture of the currently most popular system... that will be a desirable hire? Do devs quit when a new system comes out but they have more experience with the old one? Part of the job for every developer is learning new hardware.

And apparently the way to avert all of this is just to not own any IP. Devs who don't own IP are non-partisan. Devs who own IP very well may leave en masse because they don't want to learn the system they're paid to develop for. This is, like... nonsensical alarmism.
 

fogbadge

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I dont think its gonna be a third 7 character

Honestly I think a good idea for how to represent the Final Fantasy series as a whole would be.....
Goblin
It would represent mainly the MMO's by using the 13/14 Goblin design mainly, but other versions would appear as alternate costumes
the FF1,FF7,FF Tactics versions specifically
Other Final Fantasy creatures like Chocobo,Moogle, and Cactuar will appear in the moveset
The stage would be based on the Dissidia series and include cameos from various characters
wouldn't it make more sense to have a chocobo or a moogle? people love them
 

Mamboo07

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Would be nice if some more veterans got new Final Smashes.

Samus using her Metroid suit from Dread, Mario capturing the T-Rex, and Kirby with Big Rig Mouth.
 
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DemifiendEnjoyer

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Idea: Have it be a Moogle riding on the Chocobo's back, like Duck Hunt. The Moogle casts spells and the Chocobo attacks with kicks/its wings.
A lovely idea here.

The Final Fantasy series is actually pretty well represented when you consider that
Sora, Shulk, and Pyra and Mythra are all Final Fantasy characters in a way
but it would be good to have a character representing the main Final Fantasy series outside of 7
as well as someone like Kos-Mos to better represent the xeno series
I dont think Pyra and Mythra have much chance of coming back for the next smash game though.
 

chocolatejr9

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The Final Fantasy series is actually pretty well represented when you consider that
Sora, Shulk, and Pyra and Mythra are all Final Fantasy characters in a way
but it would be good to have a character representing the main Final Fantasy series outside of 7
as well as someone like Kos-Mos to better represent the xeno series
I dont think Pyra and Mythra have much chance of coming back for the next smash game though.
Did you seriously imply Shulk, Pyra and Mythra are FF characters?
 

Diddy Kong

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The Final Fantasy series is actually pretty well represented when you consider that
Sora, Shulk, and Pyra and Mythra are all Final Fantasy characters in a way
but it would be good to have a character representing the main Final Fantasy series outside of 7
as well as someone like Kos-Mos to better represent the xeno series
I dont think Pyra and Mythra have much chance of coming back for the next smash game though.
Sora I understand, but explain the Xenoblade characters please? How are they related to Final Fantasy?
 

Ivander

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Did you seriously imply Shulk, Pyra and Mythra are FF characters?
Sora I understand, but explain the Xenoblade characters please? How are they related to Final Fantasy?
Maybe they are talking about how Xenogears' script was originally submitted to be the story for Final Fantasy VII before it was rejected and became Xenogears? Even then, that's really pushing it.
 

Diddy Kong

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Maybe they are talking about how Xenogears' script was originally submitted to be the story for Final Fantasy VII before it was rejected and became Xenogears? Even then, that's really pushing it.
That's pushing it for sure. It doesn't count in the slightest.
 

DemifiendEnjoyer

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big reply I guess.
Xenogears was originally intended as a Final Fantasy game.
And it now stands as somewhat of a Final Fantasy related game even in the eyes of Square Enix, with it appearing in World of Final Fantasy, And being referenced in FF7.
Its not mainline Final Fantasy, Its a spinoff of sorts, It was originally intended to be mainline but it ended up being changed, So its not mainline.
But it is a spinoff of sorts.
And as its known Xenogears eventually spawned the Xenosaga and Xenoblade Chronicles games.
Which means that Shulk and Pyra Mythra tie back to Final Fantasy, I did not expect this to be a controversial statement at all.
Kingdom Hearts is also a Final Fantasy related series, Its the same as the Xeno series in that way, Its not mainline Final Fantasy but its related. (although certaintly moreso than Xeno)
I was 100% not trying to troll or bait anyone, this is just how I view the situation personally.
 

fogbadge

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big reply I guess.
Xenogears was originally intended as a Final Fantasy game.
And it now stands as somewhat of a Final Fantasy related game even in the eyes of Square Enix, with it appearing in World of Final Fantasy, And being referenced in FF7.
Its not mainline Final Fantasy, Its a spinoff of sorts, It was originally intended to be mainline but it ended up being changed, So its not mainline.
But it is a spinoff of sorts.
And as its known Xenogears eventually spawned the Xenosaga and Xenoblade Chronicles games.
Which means that Shulk and Pyra Mythra tie back to Final Fantasy, I did not expect this to be a controversial statement at all.
Kingdom Hearts is also a Final Fantasy related series, Its the same as the Xeno series in that way, Its not mainline Final Fantasy but its related. (although certaintly moreso than Xeno)
I was 100% not trying to troll or bait anyone, this is just how I view the situation personally.
wrong. xeno gears and xenoblade are two separate entities, in fact xenoblade wasn’t even gonna have xeno in the title. As noted above it was in fact the story of xenogears that was suggested for FF7 while it was already in development so while the story was recycled it was never at any point going to be a ff game and was in fact made by a different company
 

DemifiendEnjoyer

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wrong. xeno gears and xenoblade are two separate entities, in fact xenoblade wasn’t even gonna have xeno in the title. As noted above it was in fact the story of xenogears that was suggested for FF7 while it was already in development so while the story was recycled it was never at any point going to be a ff game and was in fact made by a different company
I could argue more, because I still disagree.
But I really dont want to do that.
 

Megadoomer

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big reply I guess.
Xenogears was originally intended as a Final Fantasy game.
And it now stands as somewhat of a Final Fantasy related game even in the eyes of Square Enix, with it appearing in World of Final Fantasy, And being referenced in FF7.
Its not mainline Final Fantasy, Its a spinoff of sorts, It was originally intended to be mainline but it ended up being changed, So its not mainline.
But it is a spinoff of sorts.
And as its known Xenogears eventually spawned the Xenosaga and Xenoblade Chronicles games.
Which means that Shulk and Pyra Mythra tie back to Final Fantasy, I did not expect this to be a controversial statement at all.
Kingdom Hearts is also a Final Fantasy related series, Its the same as the Xeno series in that way, Its not mainline Final Fantasy but its related. (although certaintly moreso than Xeno)
I was 100% not trying to troll or bait anyone, this is just how I view the situation personally.
I'm not sure how well this logic holds up; it's like saying that Persona isn't eligible for Smash because it's a spin-off of Shin Megami Tensei, which is a spin-off of Digital Devil Saga: Megami Tensei, which started out as a book series.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Eh, headcanons happen. Better to not worry about it.

On another note, as for music I want to see in; Pokemon Gym(Intense Action) from the Pokemon Anime. There's two variants in general that are noteworthy for the upbeat music(though multiple variations of the Gym Theme do exist too), making it a nice change and it feels really well into Smash's music options.

...I also want at least one Shadow the Hedgehog song. Though I'd take every theme song, including the remixes, if possible. It's got some damn good music~
 

DemifiendEnjoyer

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I'm not sure how well this logic holds up; it's like saying that Persona isn't eligible for Smash because it's a spin-off of Shin Megami Tensei, which is a spin-off of Digital Devil Saga: Megami Tensei, which started out as a book series.
Not really the same situation though

Eh, headcanons happen. Better to not worry about it.

On another note, as for music I want to see in; Pokemon Gym(Intense Action) from the Pokemon Anime. There's two variants in general that are noteworthy for the upbeat music(though multiple variations of the Gym Theme do exist too), making it a nice change and it feels really well into Smash's music options.

...I also want at least one Shadow the Hedgehog song. Though I'd take every theme song, including the remixes, if possible. It's got some damn good music~
There is probably gonna be another Sonic character in the next game, I could see that being Shadow with some music.
 

chocolatejr9

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Found this and I'm SUPER into it! As well as this YTer's Smash series in general
Oh yeah, Brawlfan1 does some real good Smash movesets. Heck, he even managed to sell me on the idea of a plant from Plants vs. Zombies being playable without Crazy Dave being there (which, given he's basically the mascot, makes him the go-to PVZ rep).
 

Pink Yoshi

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He also did a series critiquing the Final Smashes with stream chat:
Some cool ideas throughout this series. I myself would DEFINITELY change Kirby's Final Smash to something other than Rainbow Great Aether, that's for sure :secretkpop: Would be curious to hear some of your ideas.
 

SPEN18

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NGL, surprised they're still doing monthly updates. Though now we don't know what's coming...

Anyway, feel free to use this as an excuse to discuss Wave Race in Smash.
You know I'll bite. This game sold about 3mil units as an early-lifecycle N64 game and is also credited with being a big part of Nintendo's technological leap into the deep end of 3D gaming. Yet it gets criminally infrequent talk in Smash speculation. So yeah, just another series that people unfairly cast to the wayside as "not Smash material" even when the sales, reception, and historical notability compare favorably with some series already on the roster.
 

dream1ng

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NGL, surprised they're still doing monthly updates. Though now we don't know what's coming...

Anyway, feel free to use this as an excuse to discuss Wave Race in Smash.
Well right now we're going month-to-month, but they might give us a new slate in the next Direct, which may be next month.

The slate originally provided did run out in June, which may have been so the E3 Direct could give the next one. But plans changed and we didn't get a Direct.

I'm a little surprised the updates are still monthly too, considering the N64 bench isn't exactly deep, and they do still need to keep it going. I wonder how much more they've licensed from Rare, because that would help a lot.

It's not like we have Smash 64 yet though. We never get that at the beginning, if at all.
 

Wonder Smash

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Just want to say that it wasn't until I got Melee that I learned that Wave Race was made by Nintendo. I was truly surprised when I saw Ryota Hayami appear as a trophy.
 
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