Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[fogbadge]

Y'all know who will be the first character revealed...

Spoiler

and everyone will think she’s a FE character

 

[cashregister9]

Something to keep in mind is that Nintendo said back in November that they're planning on strenghtening their relationships with their third party partners. I feel like including third party characters in Smash is a great way for Nintendo to keep a good relationship with other companies. This is partly why I think we won't get as many third party characters cut. Maybe it could happen to some characters like Sora or Sephiroth, but they'd probably come back as DLC.

**** it, one character from each of these companies that I think would be cool in smash

505 - Game Publisher, haven't developed a game since the DS era, picking a game from the games they've published - Miriam (Bloodstained)

ArcSys - Sol Badguy (Guilty Gear)

Atlus - Raidou Kuzunoha (Shin Megami Tensei)

Bamco - Don-chan (Taiko no Tatsujin)

Capcom - Chun-li (Street Fighter)

Nippon Columbia - This is a record label, I don't know why they are on here. (I wanna guess they distribute Nintendo Soundtracks)

Cygames - Gran/Djeeta (Granblue Fantasy)

Devolver - Another publisher -Sam (Serious Sam)

EA - Commander Shepard (Mass Effect)

Epic - The Recruit (Fortnite)

Falcom - Estelle (Trails)

Fromsoft - Ranni (Elden Ring)

FuRyu - So I primarily only know them from the Figures they make, turns out they have been publishing games this whole time - Garnet (Legend Of Legacy)

Gungho - Berecca (Ninjala)

Hamster - I think they just do ports

IF - Neptune (Hyperdimension Neptunia)

Imagineer - Metabee (Medabots)

Koei - Ryza (Atelier)

Konami - Raiden (Metal Gear)

Level 5 - Layton (Professor Layton)

Marvelous - Raguna (Rune Factory)

Microsoft - Arthas (Warcraft)

Nexon - Berserker (Dungeon Fighter)

Nis - Laharl (Disgaea)

Sega - Sakura (Sakura Wars)

Spike Chunsoft - Monokuma (Danganronpa)

Square Enix - Emet-selch (Final Fantasy)

Takara Tomy - they've definitely published a lot of games, but only in Japan, and nowadays it seems like they mostly just publish licensed titles and Arcade
Games.

Take2 - CJ (Grand Theft Auto)

THQ Nordic - Crypto (Destroy All Humans)

Ubisoft - Ezio (Assassin's Creed)

WB - Scorpion (Mortal Kombat)

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I don't know if Sakurai or his successor would necessarily want to commit to such an extended period of work, but I could honestly see the Smash DLC cycle lasting even longer for the next game, possibly with third party DLC being utilized to keep the hype up. Ultimate had about three years of being able to boost interest in Directs and be a means to indirectly advertise NSO on top of whatever games paid fighters were on that were available on eshop. Even if one assumes the former was potentially extended by a few months with the pandemic, a SSB sequel with a Fighter's Pass period that's twice that length (say about five years as opposed to three)?

I don't think that's wholly off the table, especially if something like stages or modes become potential additions to prop up drought periods as well.

 

[Shinuto]

Here's a hypothetical smash 6 base roster newcomer list
Isaac
Waluigi
Geno
King Boo
Shantae
Banana Waddle Dee
Akira (Astral Chain)
Ring Fit Trainer
Ayumi Takabana
Alear
Lyn
Excite Biker

And 7 echoes
Big Boss
Metal Sonic
Felix
Mach Rider
Metal Mario
Dixie Kong
Zack


And a preorder bonus of Noah from Xenoblade like piranha plant.
Thoughts?

 

[Dukefire]

If the next smash bros is where Sakurai has his last hurrah and passing down the torch, I'm ok with it.

Y'all know who will be the first character revealed...

Spoiler

I also bet that people think she might feel out of place.

Though, did the series originate as a game first? I'm not that familiar with the series other then previewing the games and the animation series.

 

[HyperSomari64]

and everyone will think she’s a FE character

Like Xenoblade (And that's why i want Fire Emblem Heroes to do a special Xenoblade collab)
Also...

Spoiler: beeg image (+ swearing)

(sorta?) Relevant

If the next smash bros is where Sakurai has his last hurrah and passing down the torch, I'm ok with it.

I also bet that people think she might feel out of place.

Though, did the series originate as a game first? I'm not that familiar with the series other then previewing the games and the animation series.

First game was in 2010. The Anime adaptation premiered in 2013

 

[Wonder Smash]

I'd also love to hear a new remix of the Crash Warped theme if Crash ever gets into Smash.

You seem to be thinking a lot about Crash in Smash lately...much like I have.

 

[Dukefire]

With my mind running, what do you think about Hyperdimensional Neptunia series getting a shot?

Every girl in the series is a representation of a gaming console that existed. Which points to Neptunia herself as the potential representation of the series. Fun Fact: she represent the unreleased Sega Neptune console. (How creative of SEGA to name the console based off a planet.)

 

[HyperSomari64]

Takara Tomy - they've definitely published a lot of games, but only in Japan, and nowadays it seems like they mostly just publish licensed titles and Arcade
Games.

What about Battle Arena Toshinden?

Every girl in the series is a representation of a gaming console that existed. Which points to Neptunia herself as the potential representation of the series. Fun Fact: she represent the unreleased Sega Neptune console. (How creative of SEGA to name the console based off a planet.)

There are girls based on third party companies.

Spoiler

From Left to Right: Bandai Namco (B-Sha); Capcom (C-Sha); Square Enix (S-Sha); Konami (K-Sha)

 

[Dukefire]

There are girls based on third party companies.

Spoiler

Jeez, the series is just gaming companies and consoles represented as waifus. In a way, a Hall of Fame for all of gaming history.

 

[dream1ng]

Something to keep in mind is that Nintendo said back in November that they're planning on strenghtening their relationships with their third party partners. I feel like including third party characters in Smash is a great way for Nintendo to keep a good relationship with other companies. This is partly why I think we won't get as many third party characters cut. Maybe it could happen to some characters like Sora or Sephiroth, but they'd probably come back as DLC.

I do think being a part of greater business deals between companies is a route characters get themselves included, just like demand or general prevalence - it's just that we so completely lack the details of these deals, nor will we likely ever be privy to this stuff, that trying to extrapolate becomes one in the same with simply blindly guessing who it may next apply to. Which basically makes it immaterial; it could apply to any of them.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Jeez, the series is just gaming companies and consoles represented as waifus. In a way, a Hall of Fame for all of gaming history.

There's a fifth "Sha", and it's FromSoftware

Surprisingly, IF and Compa haven't done a Koei Tecmo nor an Arc System Works waifufication (yet)

Speaking of which, even the companies that created the series got the treatment.

 

[cashregister9]

What about Battle Arena Toshinden?

I forgot, put ****in' Eiji, Ellis or Kayin for Tomy

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

Here's a hypothetical smash 6 base roster newcomer list
Isaac
Waluigi
Geno
King Boo
Shantae
Banana Waddle Dee
Akira (Astral Chain)
Ring Fit Trainer
Ayumi Takabana
Alear
Lyn
Excite Biker

And 7 echoes
Big Boss
Metal Sonic
Felix
Mach Rider
Metal Mario
Dixie Kong
Zack


And a preorder bonus of Noah from Xenoblade like piranha plant.
Thoughts?

I like that list, and I love Metal Sonic more than Shadow. Still, I must ask: Why Metal Sonic?

 

[BrawlX10]

I do think being a part of greater business deals between companies is a route characters get themselves included, just like demand or general prevalence - it's just that we so completely lack the details of these deals, nor will we likely ever be privy to this stuff, that trying to extrapolate becomes one in the same with simply blindly guessing who it may next apply to. Which basically makes it immaterial; it could apply to any of them.

Could this mean Sans is the most likely of the indies since Toby has collab with Nintendo?

With my mind running, what do you think about Hyperdimensional Neptunia series getting a shot?

Tbh, i don't see it. Feels a bit too niche of a 3rd party IP for playble status. (Yeah, i know "niche" is a buzzword, but i honestly think it applies here).
If it gets in it will probably be Collectible or DLC Mii Costume, Assist Trophy if very lucky.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Could this mean Sans is the most likely of the indies since Toby has collab with Nintendo?

By that logic, Shantae also has a shot not only due to being one of the very few indies to make it in Ultimate's base game but also WayForward did do work with Nintendo before, being the ones behind the Advance Wars reboot

 

[Wonder Smash]

With my mind running, what do you think about Hyperdimensional Neptunia series getting a shot?

Every girl in the series is a representation of a gaming console that existed. Which points to Neptunia herself as the potential representation of the series. Fun Fact: she represent the unreleased Sega Neptune console. (How creative of SEGA to name the console based off a planet.)
View attachment 399712

Blanc represents Nintendo consoles, so I pick her for Smash Bros.

 

[SharkLord]

By that logic, Shantae also has a shot not only due to being one of the very few indies to make it in Ultimate's base game but also WayForward did do work with Nintendo before, being the ones behind the Advance Wars reboot

While we're on that note, Nintendo also published Hades' Switch port, and collaborated with Yacht Club for a set of Shovel Knight amiibos. So in terms of working relations with Nintendo, that's Shantae, Shovel Knight, Zagreus/Melinoe, and an Undertale character for frontrunners.

 

[Shinuto]

I like that list, and I love Metal Sonic more than Shadow. Still, I must ask: Why Metal Sonic?

Metal Sonic makes for an easy echo and a further addition to Sonic plus...I really like him

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

Metal Sonic makes for an easy echo and a further addition to Sonic plus...I really like him

Um, I don’t think Metal Sonic has the right proportions to be an echo of Sonic, plus, he does have some of his own moves.

 

[Perkilator]

I’ve been doing preliminary research on the Ninja Gaiden games to see how Ryu Hayabusa would play in Smash, and from what I’ve gathered, here are some idea I’ve had for special moves.

Spoiler: Specials

B : Shuriken; Hayabusa throws multiple small shurikens that can be angled with the control stick.
B + ←→ : Flying Swallow; Hayabusa dashes forward and slices through the opponent. When used on the ground, Hayabusa hops into the air and dashes diagonally downward.
B + ↑ : Roaring Gleam; Hayabusa spins around rapidly before finishing with an uppercut slash. When used on the ground, the attack can be charged, but the charge can’t be stored.
B + ↓ : Ninpo Arts; Hayabusa selects one of three Ninpo Arts to use; Wind Blades, Fire Wheel, and Inazuma. This is tied to a special gauge that uses Spirit Points (SP).

Final Smash: True Inferno of the Piercing Void; Hayabusa an orb of dark matter straight forward. Any opponents hit are paralyzed as Hayabusa then summons a mighty fire dragon that charges forward and launches the opponent.

Spoiler: Fighter Ability: Ninpo Arts

Hayabusa has a gauge at the top of his HUD that only fills when he takes and/or deals damage, never over time. The gauge has three bars that represent different Ninpo and different amounts of Spirit Points (SP).

• Blue: The first bar, and what Hayabusa starts each match with. Represents the Wind Blades (SP Cost: 1).
• Red: The second bar. Represents the Fire Wheel (SP Cost: 2).
• Yellow: The third and final bar. Represents Inazuma (SP Cost: 3).

The Ninpo Arts have different effects on Hayabusa’s sword attacks, along with changing his specials in different ways.

• Neutral Special
  • Wind Blades turns the Shuriken into the Windmill Shuriken, which circles back towards Hayabusa but can hurt him in its flight path
  • Fire Wheel envelops the Windmill Shuriken in flames, at the cost of not coming back to Hayabusa
  • Inazuma summons Kasumi’s Windmill Shuriken, which then splits into eight paralyzing kunai after traveling a certain distance
• Side Special
  • Wind Blades causes Hayabusa to slash the opponent multiple times. In the air, Hayabusa instead dashes faster without slashing anything.
  • Fire Wheel turns Flying Swallow into a flame charge that hits multiple times
  • Inazuma turns Flying Swallow into a Quick Attack-like technique in which Hayabusa can change direction with the control stick
• Up Special
  • Wind Blades extend Hayabusa’s jump height when used in the air
  • Fire Wheel has Hayabusa jump straight up in a pillar of flames
  • Inazuma has Hayabusa discharge electricity around himself at the cost of decreased jump height in the air
• Down Special
  • Wind Blades split into two blades that shoot vertically (horizontally if the button is held)
  • Fire Wheel can be thrown and angled with the control stick
  • Inazuma has Hayabusa jump into the air and throw eight paralyzing kunai towards the ground

Decided to properly flesh this out in a Google Doc.

 

[Shinuto]

Um, I don’t think Metal Sonic has the right proportions to be an echo of Sonic, plus, he does have some of his own moves.

I mean he's literally built to be the same size as sonic.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I think all the various enemy Sonic varieties (Metal, Mecha, Silver, Robo) arguably work better as semi-clones than outright echoes given their various movements do feel a bit different from him.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Um, I don’t think Metal Sonic has the right proportions to be an echo of Sonic, plus, he does have some of his own moves.

I can definitely see a trailer for Metal Sonic that's just the post credits scene from Sonic 3 where it reveals Metal Sonic as a Sonic echo, only instead of Amy showing up to rescue Sonic it's Shadow showing up to beat up Metal, thus revealing Shadow as a fully separate character

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

I can definitely see a trailer for Metal Sonic that's just the post credits scene from Sonic 3 where it reveals Metal Sonic as a Sonic echo, only instead of Amy showing up to rescue Sonic it's Shadow showing up to beat up Metal, thus revealing Shadow as a fully separate character

But Metal’s body parts are not necessarily the same as Sonic’s, as proportions are what determines who is an echo or not. Heck! Metal’s head quills are not the same size as Sonic’s, nor are there as many as the blue blur’s as there are only three. Metal Sonic is more robot like than Sonic is, in terms of proportions.

 

[dream1ng]

Could this mean Sans is the most likely of the indies since Toby has collab with Nintendo?

It really doesn't have anything to do with who works with Nintendo the most, they can make business deals with anyone. Often they make deals (non-Smash-related) with those who they've worked with very little, like how they obviously courted Bethesda to come support the Switch.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

But Metal’s body parts are not necessarily the same as Sonic’s, as proportions are what determines who is an echo or not. Heck! Metal’s head quills are not the same size as Sonic’s, nor are there as many as the blue blur’s as there are only three. Metal Sonic is more robot like than Sonic is, in terms of proportions.

Creative liberties.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Um, I don’t think Metal Sonic has the right proportions to be an echo of Sonic, plus, he does have some of his own moves.

He's actually perfect proportions-wise given that he is literally a robot duplicate of Sonic. Sure, some things aren't exact but we also have Dark Samus moving in completely different ways so Metal's movements being more robotic would work.

With that said, his unique moves and ability to copy powers would lend to something incredibly unique so making him an echo kinda feels... like a waste.

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

He's actually perfect proportions-wise given that he is literally a robot duplicate of Sonic. Sure, some things aren't exact but we also have Dark Samus moving in completely different ways so Metal's movements being more robotic would work.

With that said, his unique moves and ability to copy powers would lend to something incredibly unique so making him an echo kinda feels... like a waste.

Yeah, but some parts of him are different from Sonic in size and shape, so there is that. He would not truly be able to be a real echo of Sonic.

I do agree with you on the second thing you said, though!

 

[AreJay25]

I mean, even Sonic Team themselves seemed to think Metal Sonic works perfectly as a Sonic clone considering he's literally an unlockable costume in Sonic Adventure.

Could he be a lot more distinct? Yeah. But, like, if any character's going to be a Sonic Echo, he's the prime candidate.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Considering Metal Sonic was literally created to be a robotic version of Sonic and believes he's the real Sonic, he's the most reasonable choice for an Echo. Just give him more malicious/robotic movements and maybe change Up Throw since it relies on Sonic's head spikes, either to do the same thing but with the booster on his back or something like ROB where he floats up a bit and slams the opponent back down, probably a different Up Special, I could see him doing everything else Sonic does tbh.

He might have like slightly different hitboxes and stuff, but like that's fine, I don't want another Daisy/Richter situation here lol

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Yeah, but some parts of him are different from Sonic in size and shape, so there is that. He would not truly be able to be a real echo of Sonic.

I do agree with you on the second thing you said, though!

His proportions (neck, shoulders, waist, knees, elbows) are all the same as Sonic's, ant that's all you need. Things like head shape are fine since they're not different enough to require hitbox alterations, and they don't animate.

Also, found what AreJay25 was talking about. Metal Sonic shares all of Sonic's animations here, even the run animation they replaced plays when you hit a boost pad.

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

His proportions (neck, shoulders, waist, knees, elbows) are all the same as Sonic's, ant that's all you need. Things like head shape are fine since they're not different enough to require hitbox alterations, and they don't animate.

Also, found what AreJay25 was talking about. Metal Sonic shares all of Sonic's animations here, even the run animation they replaced plays when you hit a boost pad.

Hmm, that Sonic Adventure DX game was made by Sonic Team, not Sakurai. Who knows what Sakurai or whoever works on next Smash might do differently?

Plus. Metal Sonic still has his own moves, and forms. I can’t say Metal Sonic would be different from Shadow’s case, since there are those who think Shadow would be an echo when both are still very different.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Hmm, that Sonic Adventure DX game was made by Sonic Team, not Sakurai. Who knows what Sakurai or whoever works on next Smash might do differently?

I mean...the most likely thing for him to do is not add Metal Sonic period, but this shows that it's possible to do. Also, I highly doubt Sakurai would be like "well I wouldn't do it that way so I'm not gonna" and then just ignore the idea entirely. That would be silly.

Plus. Metal Sonic still has his own moves, and forms. I can’t say Metal Sonic would be different from Shadow’s case, since there are those who think Shadow would be an echo when both are still very different.

The other Echo Fighters have kinda already demonstrated that having unique abilities doesn't save you from being turned into a carbon copy. This kinda stuff could (and probably would since I don't think Metal Sonic can go super) be incorporated into his Final Smash though.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I will say that while Metal Sonic being an Echo would be a waste... Echoes tend to be the final ones made so if he's one, it's legit because there would be no time to make him a fully unique fighter. And I could live with that.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Hmm, that Sonic Adventure DX game was made by Sonic Team, not Sakurai. Who knows what Sakurai or whoever works on next Smash might do differently?

Plus. Metal Sonic still has his own moves, and forms. I can’t say Metal Sonic would be different from Shadow’s case, since there are those who think Shadow would be an echo when both are still very different.

I'm just saying, this stuff didn't help Dark Samus, and she's a completely different entity (Metroid Prime) that grabbed Samus's Phazon Suit.

Metal does have different abilities you could use, but he was also literally BUILT to be "Sonic, but better" so he definitely is the most reasonable Echo candidate out of any Sonic character lol

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I will say that while Metal Sonic being an Echo would be a waste... Echoes tend to be the final ones made so if he's one, it's legit because there would be no time to make him a fully unique fighter. And I could live with that.

I'm down with it only if his taunt is "You know everything that I'm going to do, but that won't help you because I know everything that you're going to do! Strange, isn't it?"

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I'm down with it only if his taunt is "You know everything that I'm going to do, but that won't help you because I know everything that you're going to do! Strange, isn't it?"

It should only trigger that way if Sonic is present.

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

I mean...the most likely thing for him to do is not add Metal Sonic period, but this shows that it's possible to do. Also, I highly doubt Sakurai would be like "well I wouldn't do it that way so I'm not gonna" and then just ignore the idea entirely. That would be silly.


The other Echo Fighters have kinda already demonstrated that having unique abilities doesn't save you from being turned into a carbon copy. This kinda stuff could (and probably would since I don't think Metal Sonic can go super) be incorporated into his Final Smash though.

I don’t know why you seem to be pushing, even though there is probably a better word, for Metal as an echo of Sonic. I mean, most of those other echos you mentioned are first party and have a lot in common with the original. It is hard to tell if Simon and Ritcher are echoing each other, and Ken is more of a semiclone. Not every character has the same case as others who are echoes to be an echo.

Not all characters have the same reason to be an echo, and Metal Sonic is not like the other echoes in that case.

This seems more like people are trying to say a character will be an echo even though they have not played their games, like those who thought K. Rool would be an echo of Bowser.

Now if you excuse me, I must try to get some sleep.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I will say that while Metal Sonic being an Echo would be a waste... Echoes tend to be the final ones made so if he's one, it's legit because there would be no time to make him a fully unique fighter. And I could live with that.

Not actually as true as you think. Everyone is Smash Ultimate was decided at the beginning. It's only Dark Pit and Lucina who were a last minute, and that was solely last game. Metal Sonic would've been an Echo Fighter from the start, if the next game follows the same plan as Brawl and Ultimate(all characters are decided, some may be dropped if not enough time).

This does happen with clones, it's just Ultimate isn't an example of it.

---------------

That said, Metal Sonic's proportions are pretty much correct, but his details are significantly different from Sonic's. He's going to take longer to model than a typical Echo(ironically the other robotic forms are closer to Sonic's design pieces, but they're also different bodyshapes). That may matter when deciding him. Every Echo should be easy to make into a Costume otherwise. Metal Sonic does work in Sonic Adventure DX, true. ...But he has way less animations and even has his own alternate idle where he leans forward, meaning he's not a straight-out skin. Just mostly. It's almost comparable to Daisy in a way, bar Daisy requiring more work.

So it could go either way. Can his specific limbs be easy enough to animate with the specific moves(kicks/punches) Sonic does? Or do the specific digits due to different pieces matter? That's more or less the point of what SuperSonicFlyer means. He can easily use the moves in theory, but it depends the real work required. If it's very little, no issues. Ironically this isn't an issue for Shadow since his body is almost identical bar the hair being a shaped like Super Sonic's.

Note that I never animated the difference in digits among games I've worked on, so it's all in theory. But it's definitely something to think on.