Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Guynamednelson]

And besides not every model currently is on the level of Pyra’s anyway so at least every model should be up to that quality.

Well yeah, I wasn't trying to say they'd all look good forever.

 

[ninjahmos]

No. And nobody’s gonna tell them.

View attachment 399495

…Right?

Don't let the Nintendo Ninjas find out.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Don't let the Nintendo Ninjas find out.

We just need to return to our classic shenanigans so the Ninjas won't even WANT to look at this thread

Watuna had the right idea by talking about Corrin

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Nintendo Music app added its newest OST.

It's Super Mario Bros. 2/Super Mario USA, so this week's pretty light. Was hoping for NES games maybe we'd get multiple at a time to offset how small their OSTs are, but apparently not unless something else joins it in a bit lol

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

No. And nobody’s gonna tell them.

View attachment 399495

…Right?

Obligatory text

 

[ninjahmos]

I'm a little late on this, but if the rumors about the Mouse Functionality for the Switch 2 are true, I still think a Mario Paint remake or reimagining would be a pretty fun gimmick game.

And it may even be pretty beneficial for future level creators if Nintendo makes Super Mario Maker 3.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Does Nintendo know the origins of the song?

Shigesato Itoi has some ownership of the MOTHER IP, so there's some legal grey area here.
Just remember that Sony owns the rights to the soundtrack of the first two games + Xenoblade X's

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Just remember that Sony owns the rights to the soundtrack of the first two games + Xenoblade X's

Just distribution

Music rights for Mother 1 and EarthBound specifically depends on the song since it’s sometimes lists Keiichi Suzuki, Nintendo or both according to Smash.

 

[cashregister9]

They likely do not or else Toby Fox wouldn't be allowed anywhere near Pokemon

Yeah like how in pokemon he used a leitmotif from a Homestuck Mpreg opera he made.

 

[Laniv]

Yeah like how in pokemon he used a leitmotif from a Homestuck Mpreg opera he made.

from a Homestuck Mpreg opera he made.

...Come again?????

 

[Wonder Smash]

Here's a topic that I don't think is often discussed here:

Which composers would you like to hear do at least one or two remixes for the next Smash game? Here are a couple for me:

Hidenori Shoji
Keiji Yamagishi
Manami Matsumae
Richard Jacques
Jake Kaufman
Tee Lopes

I guess Tee Lopes.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

The one stage that I hope gets added is Bowser's Castle.

 

[cashregister9]

...Come again?????

Here's a topic that I don't think is often discussed here:

Which composers would you like to hear do at least one or two remixes for the next Smash game? Here are a couple for me:

Hidenori Shoji
Keiji Yamagishi
Manami Matsumae
Richard Jacques
Jake Kaufman
Tee Lopes

Need more Taku Inoue remixes, Exploring his discography as a part of Midnight Grand Orchestra last year was a treat and is a composer I love (Moonlightspeed and Stellar Stellar especially).

I also want Masayoshi Soken to get in there and do some remixes, another one of my all time favorite composers The Final Fantasy 14 and 16 soundtracks are spectacular (To The Edge and Titan Lost are some of my favorites) He also did Mario Hoops 3 on 3 if that is anything

 

[BrawlX10]

Yeah like how in pokemon he used a leitmotif from a Homestuck Mpreg opera he made.

Homestuck Mpreg opera he made.

 

[ninjahmos]

Yeah like how in pokemon he used a leitmotif from a Homestuck Mpreg opera he made.

Obligatory text

 

[cashregister9]

Obligatory text

I don't think what I said was too hard to understand, I feel like it's pretty self explanatory

It was made as a semi-joke because the Homestuck forums banned discussion of Mpreg. I have no other details. Remember, this is the man that made Friend Inside Me and The Nic Cage Song

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I don't think what I said was too hard to understand, I feel like it's pretty self explanatory

It was made as a semi-joke because the Homestuck forums banned discussion of Mpreg. I have no other details. Remember, this is the man that made Friend Inside Me

This is just going to give people more fuel for theories for the secret boss of Chapter 4 or 5 in Detlarune and I am not prepared for it.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I feel like the fact we have a Mii Costume for Cuphead and nothing for Contra already kinda spoils that idea.

Contra not getting anything in Ultimate was...weird. Especially with Goemon getting something. Pretty sure Contra is more popular than Goemon.

And they're such obvious Mii Gunner candidates.

If you had to add one character to be the representative of bad video games, who would you pick?

Kuros from Wizards & Warriors. Because reasons.

Which composers would you like to hear do at least one or two remixes for the next Smash game?

Keiki Kobayashi.

Well yeah, I wasn't trying to say they'd all look good forever.

You know what does? Cel-shading.

Guilty Gear Xrd is a PS3 game, and it still looks incredible.

 

[Diddy Kong]

The one stage that I hope gets added is Bowser's Castle.

Criminal we never got this honestly. It just makes so much sense. We got so many Mario stages but this never came to be unfortunately.

 

[Deleted member]

Pauline (Mario) and/or Tails (Sonic) please.

 

[Slime Scholar]

Meanwhile, I still just want Hero to have less RNG elements or at least less potentially instant death attacks.

...I really need to play some Dragon Quest games at some point. Still wouldn't change my opinion on the Heros' instant death attacks and RNG in Ultimate though.

Counterpoint: Whack is very funny.

Toning down his RNG elements would have to come with some other moveset overhaul, because the only reason he's allowed to have such crazy and varied tools is the fact that he can't call upon them reliably. And curtailing his instakills specifically isn't really going to satisfy the people who don't like the RNG- you're not going to be hit with it very often in practice anyway.

IMO, the randomness is hilarious and well-executed. Is it out of place in a competitive game? Yeah, but I don't think that's really sacred or anything.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I think the part of Hero that annoys me is crits. Down B is fun and varied, and whack/thwack are pure RNG chaos that I adore. Since Tournament upsets with it aren't common, I think the bigger issue with that move is issues it causes when people can't read the language it's in. Most have probably heard of the proposal to give each move in the list an icon so players can pick the moves they want out at a glance.

Back to the original point, I really hate Hero's crits. How many RPG franchises in Smash have that exact mechanic baked into their source material? How many of them had that mechanic incorporated into a fighting game moveset?

Like seriously, he rolled a 1/5 so I guess that move gets to ko me at 20%? At least Judge, Misfire, and Whack are all hype and built around the RNG in the move. Hero's Smash attacks are just regular moves that sometimes get to be way stronger.

 

[Ivander]

Back to the original point, I really hate Hero's crits. How many RPG franchises in Smash have that exact mechanic baked into their source material? How many of them had that mechanic incorporated into a fighting game moveset?

Like seriously, he rolled a 1/5 so I guess that move gets to ko me at 20%? At least Judge, Misfire, and Whack are all hype and built around the RNG in the move. Hero's Smash attacks are just regular moves that sometimes get to be way stronger.

It's a good thing Fire Emblem characters don't have the mechanic. It would only be 1% activation, but it never activate for you while the opponent would get 10 of them in a row.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

It's a good thing Fire Emblem characters don't have the mechanic. It would only be 1% activation, but it never activate for you while the opponent would get 10 of them in a row.

I can't help but imagine if Pokemon characters had them, so now Lucario has rage, aura, and crits all at once!

Or alternatively, Revenge-boosted Incineroar with crits. That works too.

 

[SharkLord]

I'm probably sounding like a broken record by this point, but while Hero is extremely funny as a function, it's just really weird that it's Hero specifically who's the chaotic random character. Dragon Quest doesn't have randomized commands, and the Heroes themselves are a pretty straightforward magic knight protagonists. I don't have a problem with the RNG concept, but it should've been given to a different character.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Counterpoint: Whack is very funny.

Toning down his RNG elements would have to come with some other moveset overhaul, because the only reason he's allowed to have such crazy and varied tools is the fact that he can't call upon them reliably. And curtailing his instakills specifically isn't really going to satisfy the people who don't like the RNG- you're not going to be hit with it very often in practice anyway.

IMO, the randomness is really funny and well-executed. Is it out of place in a competitive game? Yeah, but I don't think that's really sacred or anything.

Then give him a moveset overhaul to make him better balanced, RNG or not, and remove or nerf the instant death spells.

I don't even consider the Hero OP, nor the one I've had the most difficulty defeating most frequently or with the most skilled players. I just think he's...not fun to battle. At all. I think I've actually had more fun challenging Brawl Meta Knights and Olimars and Smash 4 Diddy Kongs and Bayonettas than I've ever had dealing with Heroes in Ultimate. Trying to keep up with the constant RNG and just instantly dying to Whack or Thawck is just the opposite of fun for me, to the point where I'm barely even glad when I win a battle with a Hero because the match itself was just that unfun for me.

This all just boils down to my personal opinion, and I'll gladly admit that his moveset design might actually be balanced overall or that there could be better ways of redesigning him than my suggestions. I'd just like to see less instant deaths or random crits if nothing else, because I just...don't personally like battling Hero in Ultimate, and while I can say that about a handful of other characters in the game, my dislike of dealing with specific characters is most consistent with Hero by far.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

The crits for Hero just feel like a really slapdash addition to his kit and feels like a weird obtuse secondary gimmick on top of having a ton of specials through Spell List. Like he already has stuff like Oomph and Psyche Up, he doesn't need to suddenly send someone into the stratosphere just because.

Since examples were being brought up earlier, imagine if Joker had Arsene as a main gimmick and they randomly decided to give him crits because "lol rpg character". Imagine getting crit by Joker while Arsene is out.

Like Whack and Thwack I think should be nerfed to only work at all after certain percents so you don't just randomly kill people instantly at 0% because you hit a 1% chance, but honestly I think crits should just be removed entirely, it's such an unnecessary addition lol

 

[NintenRob]

Criminal we never got this honestly. It just makes so much sense. We got so many Mario stages but this never came to be unfortunately.

Hmm, I kinda want to break this down. See if there was an ideal time to add a Mario stage

Spoiler: Breakdown

Smash 64 gave us 2 Mario stages. Peach's Castle and Mushroom Kingdom. As the first game, these make perfect sense. Well, Peach's Castle the stage doesn't make sense, but as a stage it does.

Melee added 4.5 new stages.

As with half the new Melee stages, two of these were just revamped stages from 64. Peach's Castle and Mushroom Kingdom.
We also got brand new Rainbow Ride and Mushroom Kingdom 2 (which is really subcon).
We also got Yoshi's Island from Super Mario World, but it's labelled as a Yoshi Stage....

Super Mario 64 got two stages.... I'll come back to this

Brawl proceeded to add 5.5 new Mario stages with Rainbow Ride returning.

Delfino Plaza as the defacto Mario Sunshine stage, Luigi's Mansion needs no introduction, Mario Bros which sucks but it's pretty iconic, a generic Mario Circuit that was so generic it was renamed Figure 8 circuit (but we had no Mario Kart stage at this point). Mushroomy Kingdom as the new Super Mario Bros stage, two versions in fact. This is kinda the successor to the Mushroom Kingdom stages prior which importantly weren't in Brawl.

Smash 3DS had 4 new stages (plus Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 returning) while Smash Wii U has 3 new stages with 3 returning (Luigi's Mansion, Delfino Plaza, Mario Circuit). Peach's Castle 64 was added as DLC, so was Mario Maker.

3D Land really captures the modern aesthetic of Mario really well, it's kinda like the modern Mushroomy Kingdom (I like it). Golden Plains is kinda generic and aesthetically doesn't offer much different from 3D Land, but it's got a unique gimmick to it. Rainbow Road is Rainbow Road and should've been in Ultimate. And Finally Paper Mario, it's the only subseries for this stage, but it's kinda weird too.

on the Wii U side, Mushroom Kingdom U perfectly captures the aesthetic of new Super Mario Bros, Mario Galaxy is our defacto Mario Galaxy stage, and Mario Circuit again, but this time good.

Worth noting that in both versions there technically is a Bowser Castle of sorts. Paper Mario and Mushroom Kingdom U both take us to a Bowser Castle or fortress location. Also while Mario Maker can make some stages feel redundant, it was added as DLC.

As with most Franchises, Ultimate didn't have much in the way of new stuff. It was just New Donk City as our defacto new Mario Odyssey stage, and it was always going to be New Donk City. But believe it or not, Bowser's Castle IS a stage in this game. Only, like Pac-Maze, it was relegated to World of Light and called Molten Fortress. Fun.

Doing this, I thought I was gonna say there was just no opportunity for Bowser's Castle, but **** that. Most Smash Bros games had an opportunity to add Bowser's Castle

64:
Bowser's Castle without would be weird, but that Peach's Castle stage makes 100x more sense as a Bowser Road stage

Melee:
Two Smash 64 stages? Though Peach's Castle and Sky levels are pretty iconic to Mario. Though with how Melee did it's stages, having Peach's Castle with Bowser's Castle would be super thematically appropriate. Which Bowser's Castle? Super Mario Bros 3 didn't have a stage and you could even still include an airship that way

Brawl:
if it was just Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1, I'd let you off the hook, but 1-2? Nah. Both Mushroomy Kingdom stages are butt-ugly anyway and a poor showing for that original game. Bowser head entries as starting to become a staple of the location by this point, especially in Mario Kart and could serve as the inspiration point.

3DS:
Golden Plains didn't need to be a grassland. Even if you wanted a NSMB stage, those have Bowser's Castle!

Wii U:
Two Mario Circuits? While the Wii U version is significantly better. A Bowser Castle stage would be very fitting for a new Mario Kart track. Also World Bowser as our 3D World stage would have been phenomenal. I like Mushroom Kingdom U a lot, but it clashes a lot with Mario Maker, which I also like a lot

Ultimate is the only one that I'll allow as New Donk City was always going to be our Mario Odyssey stage, even if Bowser's Kingdom was pretty sweet.

Next game may have difficulty fitting it in though, Between Mario Wonder, whatever new 3D Mario we get, new Mario Kart, Mario & Luigi Brothership, various Paper Mario, Princess Peach Showtime and Luigi's Mansion 3. Competition will be stuff and I reckon it will probably have to rely on Mario Wonder to get in as a stage

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Hmm, I kinda want to break this down. See if there was an ideal time to add a Mario stage

Spoiler: Breakdown

Smash 64 gave us 2 Mario stages. Peach's Castle and Mushroom Kingdom. As the first game, these make perfect sense. Well, Peach's Castle the stage doesn't make sense, but as a stage it does.

Melee added 4.5 new stages.

As with half the new Melee stages, two of these were just revamped stages from 64. Peach's Castle and Mushroom Kingdom.
We also got brand new Rainbow Ride and Mushroom Kingdom 2 (which is really subcon).
We also got Yoshi's Island from Super Mario World, but it's labelled as a Yoshi Stage....

Super Mario 64 got two stages.... I'll come back to this

Brawl proceeded to add 5.5 new Mario stages with Rainbow Ride returning.

Delfino Plaza as the defacto Mario Sunshine stage, Luigi's Mansion needs no introduction, Mario Bros which sucks but it's pretty iconic, a generic Mario Circuit that was so generic it was renamed Figure 8 circuit (but we had no Mario Kart stage at this point). Mushroomy Kingdom as the new Super Mario Bros stage, two versions in fact. This is kinda the successor to the Mushroom Kingdom stages prior which importantly weren't in Brawl.

Smash 3DS had 4 new stages (plus Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 returning) while Smash Wii U has 3 new stages with 3 returning (Luigi's Mansion, Delfino Plaza, Mario Circuit). Peach's Castle 64 was added as DLC, so was Mario Maker.

3D Land really captures the modern aesthetic of Mario really well, it's kinda like the modern Mushroomy Kingdom (I like it). Golden Plains is kinda generic and aesthetically doesn't offer much different from 3D Land, but it's got a unique gimmick to it. Rainbow Road is Rainbow Road and should've been in Ultimate. And Finally Paper Mario, it's the only subseries for this stage, but it's kinda weird too.

on the Wii U side, Mushroom Kingdom U perfectly captures the aesthetic of new Super Mario Bros, Mario Galaxy is our defacto Mario Galaxy stage, and Mario Circuit again, but this time good.

Worth noting that in both versions there technically is a Bowser Castle of sorts. Paper Mario and Mushroom Kingdom U both take us to a Bowser Castle or fortress location. Also while Mario Maker can make some stages feel redundant, it was added as DLC.

As with most Franchises, Ultimate didn't have much in the way of new stuff. It was just New Donk City as our defacto new Mario Odyssey stage, and it was always going to be New Donk City. But believe it or not, Bowser's Castle IS a stage in this game. Only, like Pac-Maze, it was relegated to World of Light and called Molten Fortress. Fun.

Doing this, I thought I was gonna say there was just no opportunity for Bowser's Castle, but **** that. Most Smash Bros games had an opportunity to add Bowser's Castle

64:
Bowser's Castle without would be weird, but that Peach's Castle stage makes 100x more sense as a Bowser Road stage

Melee:
Two Smash 64 stages? Though Peach's Castle and Sky levels are pretty iconic to Mario. Though with how Melee did it's stages, having Peach's Castle with Bowser's Castle would be super thematically appropriate. Which Bowser's Castle? Super Mario Bros 3 didn't have a stage and you could even still include an airship that way

Brawl:
if it was just Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1, I'd let you off the hook, but 1-2? Nah. Both Mushroomy Kingdom stages are butt-ugly anyway and a poor showing for that original game. Bowser head entries as starting to become a staple of the location by this point, especially in Mario Kart and could serve as the inspiration point.

3DS:
Golden Plains didn't need to be a grassland. Even if you wanted a NSMB stage, those have Bowser's Castle!

Wii U:
Two Mario Circuits? While the Wii U version is significantly better. A Bowser Castle stage would be very fitting for a new Mario Kart track. Also World Bowser as our 3D World stage would have been phenomenal. I like Mushroom Kingdom U a lot, but it clashes a lot with Mario Maker, which I also like a lot

Ultimate is the only one that I'll allow as New Donk City was always going to be our Mario Odyssey stage, even if Bowser's Kingdom was pretty sweet.

Next game may have difficulty fitting it in though, Between Mario Wonder, whatever new 3D Mario we get, new Mario Kart, Mario & Luigi Brothership, various Paper Mario, Princess Peach Showtime and Luigi's Mansion 3. Competition will be stuff and I reckon it will probably have to rely on Mario Wonder to get in as a stage

To be fair to Figure-8 Circuit, that's always what it was supposed to be, though it's a little different in Smash. It was just named wrong for two games before Ultimate finally got it right lol

Personally, I'd kick Golden Plains to the curb. I never play on it, I don't know anyone who actually plays on it, I've never heard anyone here say it should come back, and from what I understand NSMB2 isn't that great. Plus, if we had an NSMB style Bowser's Castle, it would've increased the chances of getting a remix of the original NSMB Bowser's Castle akin to what Fortune Street did.

Plus it might have given the Paper Mario stage another layout that doesn't make me want to shred that stage to ****ing ribbons. Like the first section is Sticker Star and the second section is TTYD (the S.S. Flavion) with its layout occasionally affected by the whale that takes you to Yoshi's Island in Paper Mario 64, so maybe the third layout could've been from Super Paper Mario and we could've had an actual all-original Paper Mario Medley instead of cramming the Airship theme in there for no good reason.

 

[fogbadge]

Here's a topic that I don't think is often discussed here:

Which composers would you like to hear do at least one or two remixes for the next Smash game?

I think I'd much rather Yoko did everything

 

[Pupp135]

Yeah, probably.
What 3rd party characters do you see as base game material?

The ones that I’m mostly envisioning as base game material are fighters who have been assists/Mii costumes or characters from series with a fighter on the current roster. Some main highlights for me would be Bomberman, one of Tails/Knuckles/Shadow/Dr. Eggman, Chun-Li, Monster Hunter, Dante, Lloyd Irving (Yuri Lowell doesn’t have a Mii costume, but he is also popular from the Tales series), and Sans.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I'm a little late on this, but if the rumors about the Mouse Functionality for the Switch 2 are true, I still think a Mario Paint remake or reimagining would be a pretty fun gimmick game.

And it may even be pretty beneficial for future level creators if Nintendo makes Super Mario Maker 3.

They should use the mouse to bring the Oendan series back

 

[RileyXY1]

They should use the mouse to bring the Oendan series back

As well as the Pokémon Ranger series.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

They should use the mouse to bring the Oendan series back

Oendan? But you clearly posted Elite Beat Agents...

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Re: Hero being bull****

I personally ****ing love the RNG and I think it gives him the spice he needs because without it, his kit would consist of normals and aerials that are the absolute worst out of any swordfighter though a combination of lacking range, dog**** frame data or even both along with some... admittedly strong projectiles through neutral special's different charges, a surprisingly non-projectile disjoint with side special, up special being a pretty decent albeit linear recovery with some shockingly strong hitboxes especially when fully charged and... whatever would be used for the down special if the RNG's gone.

This doesn't sound nearly as fun and would probably cause Hero to line up towards being more of a typical zoner rather than the agent of chaos he currently is. The last thing I want is to have a previously unique concept become watered down and standardized to fit the mold of a given archetype, so I think Command Selection in particular is fine. Any potential bull**** they have is balanced by having a random chance to get a spell from it anyway.

Could some of the stuff he has be toned down or, in the case of the instant death ones, only kill (if not only appear) once your foe's at a certain percent? Probably, but completely removing anything from the Down B would be cutting down on what makes Hero so unique and I don't like the sound of that.

Fully agreed on the critical hits in smash attacks though. Those are genuinely bull**** when his smash attacks are already pretty decent (except up smash which is a genuine contender for one of the worst smash attacks even with the crits due to its hitboxes alone but if crits are gone, I would hope it gets a scooping hitbox like literally every up smash of its kind so it's at least functional). Plus, even if they're gone, critical hits are still present through Hatchet Man's guaranteed one so it's not like the smash attacks NEED crits to reference the idea of crits.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't mind Critical Hits in itself, but 1/8 chance is way. Too. High. Make it like 1/64 or something a bit more balanced in how often, and that changes the gameplan. It's too easy to spam.

The command menu is fine in itself(though I get the language barrier point), but tweaking some moves would be good for balance.

But yeah, those lucky things make him so damn interesting. Being an RPG fan, I like these unique mechanics. It's the concept that drew me to Hero. Though I won't deny Critical Hits help me get through some more annoying levels in Adventure Mode. XD

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I don't mind Critical Hits in itself, but 1/8 chance is way. Too. High. Make it like 1/64 or something a bit more balanced in how often, and that changes the gameplan. It's too easy to spam.

That would be acceptable too, honestly.

If the chances of a crit were THAT low, I wouldn't even be mad if one got me at 20% because like, yeah, my foe just won the lottery lmao

It's certainly healthier than having better odds than getting a Judge 9 or a Misfire.

 

[Garo]

I can understand disliking crits for being too common or powerful, but "other rpg characters don't have them" isn't really a point against Hero having them. Dragon Quest is basically the daddy of jrpgs so incorporating traditional elements like menus and crits into Hero of all characters makes sense. At the same time I don't think you should introduce crits to other jrpg characters in the name of "fairness" since it would diminish the uniqueness of the mechanic. You've seen how many players - both competitive and casual types - react to a newly introduced character having a counter or a reflector.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I can understand disliking crits for being too common or powerful, but "other rpg characters don't have them" isn't really a point against Hero having them.

It's also technically not true because Marth, Lucina and Roy have Critical Hit as their Final Smashes

 

[Thegameandwatch]

If Hero gets redesigned like how RNG works then they will probably have to change his other stuff.

An example is how his aerials aren’t remarkable compared to most sword characters for balancing reasons.